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Difference between revisions of "40d Talk:Trading"

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== Consolidation of Trading, Trade Depot, Caravans, and Wagon ==
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{{Archive|
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# The [[Talk:Trading/Talk Caravan|talk page]] from Caravan, which wasn't merged properly at the time.
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# The [[Talk:Trading/archive1|first archive]] of Talk:Trading.
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}}
  
This needs wikification with some amounts of rewriting. I will give it a go. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 06:51, 27 January 2008 (EST)
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== Dead Wagons on Depot Deconstruct Exploit ==
  
Yea thanks, this is my first try at a wiki-page. sorry if it was crappy... --[[User:CombatWombat|CombatWombat]] 06:42, 28 January 2008 (EST)
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You can take every item from a caravan by deconstructing a depot while the caravan is in it. The items aren't marked as stolen if you do this. But in the units screen, any wagons that were in the depot will appear as deceased. It's because the trader's wagon is a creature. Specifically, it's the center tile of the wagon. That's why the Depot Access view only shows where the center tile of the "wagon" can get to. I'd kind of like to point this out here, or perhaps on the page specifically about wagons, to identify the difference between the trade wagons and your starting wagon, which is a building.
  
Nah, there's no such thing as a crappy wiki edit, when its got content in it. Just remember to be bold, otherwise there would be nothing here. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 07:29, 28 January 2008 (EST)
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Also, Dwarves still won't siege you, and this particular exploit can make the game ridiculously easy if you only deconstruct on the Dwarven caravan.--Kydo 02:48, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
  
Well this thread's a little old, but I re-wrote and consolidated some more information on this pageThere was also some discussion of this on [[Talk:Caravan#Merge_this_into_Trading]]If you don't approve, please don't just revert it, I organized and cleaned up a lot of the scattered info, so at the very least it should be split from where it is now on the Trading page to where it should ultimately go. --[[User:Marble Dice|Marble Dice]] 02:48, 2 May 2008 (EDT)
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:That exploit is already discussed in this articleAnd the distinction between embark wagons and trade wagons has (also) already been made clear on the [[wagon]] page (which the key word most users would Search for, I'd think - and where I'd think we should be having this discussion?) If you want to put a footnote in that article, so long as it isn't adding more confusion than clarification (that is, it doesn't devolve into pointless detail and supposition), more info can't be a bad thing.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 15:03, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
  
== Extraction from different articles ==
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::Well, the wagon article seems to focus almost exclusively with the starting wagon, and only mentions the trade wagons once. In fact, reading over it again, it only mentions trade ''caravans''. Nothing about the wagons therein, or the distinction. Still, I agree with you that this is more about the wagons than about that exploit, and the conversation should be over there, not here.--Kydo 02:48, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
  
All the information on trading seems quite scattered now (Trade depot, Caravan, Dwarf, Elf, Human etc), and as most stuff is well written I think we should merge the trade sections to this one page and leave behind only refecences. --[[User:Maska|Maska]] 08:29, 27 January 2008 (EST)
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== Culling on mandates ==
:Looking good, is there a 'your first caravan'-type tutorial anywhere we could link to? Something with advice on the sort of goods to prepare and what to buy for the first winter, with new players in mind. I'll try and find one somewhere. --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 09:07, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 
 
 
: Done, linked to the trade section in the new player guide. --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 09:11, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 
::Done++ Someone else finish merging the information from Caravans into the page. Make sure to get that awesome Elf trader image. --[[User:Ikkonoishi|Ikkonoishi]] 12:10, 28 January 2008 (EST)
 
 
 
== Haulers? ==
 
In my experience the "bring item to depot" tasks were performed by any dwarf, even without any hauling labors enabled. Can also be my imagination. I cannot check it for now, so, anyone, please verify.--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:49, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 
:That's correct, as many times my pure crafters will stop crafting to haul goods to the depot, despite having only one or two production labors enabled. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 03:41, 28 January 2008 (EST)
 
::Is this similar to plant gathering where even non-working nobles and children will do it, or is it limted to any regular dwarf regardless of labour? --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 19:04, 31 January 2008 (EST)
 
:::Yes, nobles and children will haul stuff to the depot. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 00:19, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 
 
 
== Moving goods on afterwards ==
 
 
 
To get things ''out'' of the depot.... do I have to order them removed while the caravan is still around?
 
I have starving dwarves... and food going rotten in the depot![[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 06:36, 5 February 2008 (EST)
 
:AFAIK, no. in my experience, anything bought is treated as like it's just lying there, not being traded.
 
Well, yes and no. Once trading is finished dwarves will start bringing the bought goods in while the caravan still is there. But you cant 'order' them to per se ;) Your own stuff that wasnt sold however will remain in depot till the caravan leaves. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 18:45, 13 February 2008 (EST)
 
::Unless you go back into the {{k|g}}oods menu at the Depot and unmark them for trading. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 04:25, 14 February 2008 (EST)
 
I've a question in the same vein: I just traded for a truckload of goods, but the traders didn't even leave them in the depot! They just carried my goods out with them. Were my dwarves supposed to carry all of the goods back earlier? --[[User:Gh3yz0r|Gh3yz0r]] 14:08, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 
 
 
==Duplicate Page?==
 
The page "Caravan" has very similar information, though this "trading" page seems more complete.[Samyotix]
 
 
 
== culling on mandates ==
 
  
 
what's that? in the trade screen? me no be native speaker...--[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 21:56, 20 February 2008 (EST)
 
what's that? in the trade screen? me no be native speaker...--[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 21:56, 20 February 2008 (EST)
 
:I think it means that it will hide things that are not allowed to be traded: "Mayor has put bans on certain exports". But I don't know if it hides an entire bin if one item in it is banned. [[User:Hex Decimal|Hex Decimal]] 14:29, 27 February 2008 (EST)
 
:I think it means that it will hide things that are not allowed to be traded: "Mayor has put bans on certain exports". But I don't know if it hides an entire bin if one item in it is banned. [[User:Hex Decimal|Hex Decimal]] 14:29, 27 February 2008 (EST)
 
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::I am quite sure that "culling on mandates: on" hides all bins containing items which have active Noble Export Bans. [[User:Samyotix|Samyotix]] 09:16, 13 November 2008 (EST)
== "everything is ruined now" ==
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:::I made a "trading color cues" subsection. This should cover relevant info about mandates and other things--[[User:Shurikane|Shurikane]] 22:07, 29 December 2008 (EST)
I just accidentally tried to trade the elves a wooden bin full of stone goods. Now ALL my stone goods, including ones not actually in that bin, are unacceptable. I ended up just seizing the rope I needed, but I'd like to know if this is a glitch, or if I just made them too angry to trade. <small>—Preceding [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Shadow archmagi|Shadow archmagi]] ([[User talk:Shadow archmagi|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Shadow archmagi|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}</small>
 
:It's not a glitch.  Elves refuse to trade at all after you give them even a single wood or animal product. After you do that the trade option is locked until they come back to trade next year. [[User:Hex Decimal|Hex Decimal]] 14:52, 27 February 2008 (EST)
 
:The wooden bin told the elves you hate trees. Elves don't trade with people who hate trees. Elves don't trade with people who hate animals. Don't trade dead trees or dead animal parts to elves. [[User:Rkyeun|Rkyeun]] 13:18, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
 
 
 
==Depot Access==
 
Not a single square on my map is accessible by the caravan. What should i do? --[[User:Noctune9|Noctune9]] 11:16, 19 March 2008 (EDT)
 
 
 
EDIT: My bad. It seems that it shows every square as inaccessible if the depot is not fully constructed--[[User:Noctune9|Noctune9]] 11:16, 19 March 2008 (EDT)
 
 
 
== Trading Margins ==
 
In regards to this submission:
 
"If you have a somewhat experienced broker or you already raised the traiders mood to pleased or above you can usually trade with marginal profit for them and you can also safely ignore their counteroffers, offering the same trade a second time, successfully."
 
 
 
You do realize that when they make a counteroffer they automatically add those counteroffer goods to the pot, right? Just making sure. Are you saying you go back through and remove each item their counteroffer added to your side of the deal? Seems much simpler to just stick to the ~50% rule of thumb, especially at the beginning with low skills and again once you reach the point of having so many trade goods that you can easily buy everything you need from each caravan with plenty of goods left over. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 14:55, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
 
: Yes, exactly. Whenever i get a counteroffer I remove all items from the list they added until their profit is back to what i deem fit, sometimes leaving a low value item, say, 50☼, they chose, if I wanted to trade it anyway. Since this is not a beginners guide page, I think it's wrong to advise people to a 50% profit margin that is much higher than necessary. Once the traders are happy, they will even agree to trading an anvil for an anvil. I tested this extensively because usually i want them to leave early and thus try to make them angry. Almost impossible. We could however add smth about the (suspected) advantages of having high export totals like bigger caravans, more immigrants, arrival of king. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 06:39, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
 
::The 50% rule of thumb is a good starting point either way. "Advanced" page or not, before I posted that, there was no guidance on what profit margin the visiting traders would generally accept, so that people were left to find out the hard way.
 
::Going back through a long list of your trade goods to hunt down and remove the items which the visiting trader added to the offer seems like a bit of a waste of time to me, unless you just have very few trade goods or a really tight budget at your fortress.
 
::As for being able to get away with lower margins once the trader is happy, that is definitely useful knowledge and could be expanded upon. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 12:52, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
 
 
 
There is no way to refuse a counter-offer, is there? The only option is to hit {{k|Enter}}, and the "goods are added to the pot" as you say ... correct? --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 09:07, 6 May 2008 (EDT)
 
 
 
:Correct, however, you're free to simply remove the additionally requested items and re-offer. In the case of a new trader in his first few trade sessions, this will likely work, as he gained experience (probably a LOT) just by offering. Even if it doesn't, as long as you don't repeat it many times (4+ I'd say) then there's no real risk of driving them off. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 13:16, 6 May 2008 (EDT)
 
 
 
::I find it easiest to commence one dwarf with novice valuer that way you already know prices... within the first trading I can usually get some items at straight trade (0% profit) maybe it depends on civilisation demands.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 01:14, 13 July 2008 (EDT)
 
 
 
:::If you want a trade to succeed just make sure the trader gets 100-1000* profit. Almost every trade I made with this method was accepted. --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 06:09, 15 July 2008 (EDT)
 
 
 
== Goblins butchering my caravans. ==
 
 
 
Every time I trade with the caravans, a goblin ambush comes and the merchants are all killed. Ive taken new measures to prevent this, but will merchants come back to trade? and what effect does their death have? <small>—Preceding [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Wafl|Wafl]] ([[User talk:Wafl|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Wafl|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}</small>
 
 
 
My caravans get shot up by goblins all the time.  Then you get to loot their stuff.  The caravans always seem to come back next year.  [[User:Ripheus|Ripheus]] 22:49, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
 
  
 
== Trading flowchart ==
 
== Trading flowchart ==
 
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{{:Trading/Flowchart}}
 
Given a number of questions on the forums, it may be a good idea to put together a flowchart of the steps involved in trading. I will draft something up here (at least partially so I can safely screw up my first attempt on this wiki)
 
Given a number of questions on the forums, it may be a good idea to put together a flowchart of the steps involved in trading. I will draft something up here (at least partially so I can safely screw up my first attempt on this wiki)
  
 
Tasks are sequential top-to-bottom, but can be done in parallel left-to-right
 
Tasks are sequential top-to-bottom, but can be done in parallel left-to-right
{|cellpadding="2" border="1"
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{|cellpadding="2" border="1" width=400|
 
|-
 
|-
 
| colspan=2 rowspan=2| Make or obtain goods to trade || Build Depot ({{K|b}} - {{K|D}})
 
| colspan=2 rowspan=2| Make or obtain goods to trade || Build Depot ({{K|b}} - {{K|D}})
Line 98: Line 45:
  
 
Hmm. Is there a better way to show this? It may not help much as is... [[User:Kaypy|Kaypy]]
 
Hmm. Is there a better way to show this? It may not help much as is... [[User:Kaypy|Kaypy]]
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:Ask and ye shall receive (see right, editable at [[Trading/Flowchart]]). --[[User:Juckto|juckto]] 08:46, 6 May 2008 (EDT)
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'''Re: Adeptable's changes'''<br>I don't think the third branch is neccesary. For one, it makes it seem too wide, and secondary it implies that turning off the trader's labours ''all the time'' means that trading will happen faster - almost as if it will make merchants arrive more often. --[[User:Juckto|juckto]] 23:36, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
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:I'd add retrieving empty bins to the bottom so that you don't end up with empty bins sitting at the depot.  When stockpiles are crowded you'll need them to deal with the sudden influx of goods.  (Never give away bins!)  I bow to your wiki-fu, I simply could not edit your flowchart...  --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 14:15, 3 December 2008 (EST)
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::Yeah, it's a bit tricky I guess. It's all in the colspan :p. But, ahhh, how do you retreive them? I thought dwarves would automatically fetch empty bins from the depot if they needed them, just like fetching them from any other location. --[[User:Juckto|juckto]] 18:31, 3 December 2008 (EST)
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:::Ack, somehow didn't see this.  Empty bins will still show up as Trading in the bring goods to depot menu, unmark them and your dwarves will haul them back to where they're needed.  --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 02:13, 7 January 2009 (EST)
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::::Surely the bins' "Trading" status disappears after the Trader leaves? I mean, I've never noticed them as still being marked for "Trading" when the next caravan arrives next season. --[[User:Juckto|juckto]] 22:08, 23 January 2009 (EST)
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<br clear="all" />
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== How many wagons? ==
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I don't think I've ever seen more than 8 wagons in a given caravan. Is that the limit? Has anyone ever seen more than 8?--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 03:01, 9 November 2008 (EST)
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:I've never seen more than two at a time before flooding my fortress. I didn't realize they could send more than two at a time. Kydo 14:20, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
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== Mass selection of goods to be moved ==
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Question: Is there a way to designate multiple goods in one selection to be brought to the depot?
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I'm getting really tired of indivually selecting goods to be moved to the depot when I have massive amounts of crafts, food, etc. So is anyone familiar with ways to select multiple goods at once? Maybe a "start" and "end" tags (for lack of a better name) and every good caught inbetween is designated to be moved to the depot? -- [[User:Dakira|Dakira]] 14:47 10 November 2008 (PST)
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:Nope. About the best you can do is use the select (search) menu to get all the ones of the type you want, then enter-down-enter-down. You can flag about 200 a minute this way, though.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 19:17, 10 November 2008 (EST)
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::That's what I was doing previously. Are there any plans for a "mass selector" to be introduced? -- [[User:Dakira|Dakira]] 16:50 10 November 2008 (PST)
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:::Not that I know of. Make a feature request on the [http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php forums].--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 20:05, 10 November 2008 (EST)
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::::AFAIK, there is no good way to do this from the trade screen, which is why it's important to set up custom stockpiles and have plenty of bins. Man, I really wish you could make bins out of stone.
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:::::Auto Hotkey thingy. Heard it works wonders. Never tried it though.--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 15:19, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
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== Merchant moods ==
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My fortress hadn't been doing too well, but I didn't know it was so bad it could affect merchants... and their pack animals. As the last merchant was about to leave the map, he suddenly went berserk and was cut down by his bodyguard, who then fled the scene. Shortly thereafter, I recieved a message that the donkey had been stricken by melacholy. Has anyone else had this happen?
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:They usually eventually go nuts if they can't leave for some reason. Never heard of something like what you're describing.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 03:24, 12 November 2008 (EST)
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::Just got something close happening. They entered the map, and were chased off the map by goblins then the merchant went melancholy and a pack mule went stark raving mad. The only difference here is that one of them was actually killed before they left the map, so it could be he was unhappy over that. But still surprised that the merchants can get these kinds of moods and even weirder that the animals can... [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 10:38, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
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:::They also immediately go crazy if they see a dwarf that's gone berserk.  Or at least seem to do so.  (Had a merchant go crazy immediately upon entering a map near a failed-mood berserk dwarf who i hadn't bothered to deal with because he had run away from where i was working.)  --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 12:03, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
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== No more dwarven caravan ==
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So. The Dwarven caravan has not come in the past two years. I think, though I am not sure, that this corresponds with when I met the requirements for the Incoming King, though he has not yet seen fit to arrive. I believe I also capped the population sometime in there, but I think it was after the first year of no caravan. I don't recall in any way molesting previous caravans. I needs me some dolomite and steel bars, anyone know what's going on here? --[[User:Zombiejustice|Zombiejustice]] 02:10, 13 November 2008 (EST)
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:So. I upper the population cap to encourage some immigration, and after a few seasons, the King showed up with his retinue and the Hammerer, who had apparently died at some point. I re-capped the population, and the caravan came next autumn. Was it the incoming king or the dead hammerer? Did the population cap interfere with the king's arrival? The mystery remains. --[[User:Zombiejustice|Zombiejustice]] 14:59, 2 December 2008 (EST)
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::I'm on year 13 of my most recent fortress and the Dwarven caravan declined to show up this year, after 12 years of no problem.  I still don't meet the requirements for the Incoming King.  In a previous game I did meet those requirements, and that did not interfere with the caravan (though the liason stopped letting me place orders once the king arrived).  Anyway, I don't think my current fort has anything in common with what you've described, other than a mysteriously missing caravan after not damaging previous ones. --[[User:Sev|Sev]] 00:52, 7 January 2009 (EST)
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:::It appears my problem was caused by a brief goblin siege that occurred when the caravan was supposed to be showing up. --[[User:Sev|Sev]] 16:48, 26 January 2009 (EST)
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== A query from the deleted page Talk:Stealing ==
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I've read many times that the traders count their total losses/profits when they leave the edge of the map, so as to make stealing of any sort impossible (to get away with, anyhow). Does this include what the guards are carrying (if they get killed or even just shoot off some bolts)? Or is the "total profit" concept true at all? --[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 17:07, 27 November 2008 (EST)
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:I'm pretty sure that the total profit concept is how it works. The value of everything the traders enter with is subtracted from the value of everything the traders leave with to calculate profit. There's probably something in there to account for the death of (a) trader(s). --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 21:42, 28 November 2008 (EST)
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::is this still true?<br>i was unwittingly stealing everything off the merchants via the stocks screen. i dont have any steel yet, as i've not found any flux or iron ore. but every now and again, i noticed i had a bunch of steel/iron weapons/bolts/armo(u)r, so designated it all for melting, etc, etc.. eventually, i chose to 'dump' everything to see where they were getting it, and they were stripping the merchants of all their goods/clothes/everything metal xD  will they come and siege me anytime soon? my army's not ready yet! i do give good profit margins (20%+), but i'm sure the stuff i nick is much more valuable :/  --[[User:DJ Devil|DJ Devil]]
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:::I've noticed that starving dwarves appear to be happy to steal food from merchants. I'm running 0.28.181.40d, and, being new to this, almost experienced [[fun]] due to lack of food. The dwarven caravan arrived in the nick of time, and rather to my surprise once they got close a clump of dwarves started hobbling their way over to the caravan. Once they got to it they started following it back to the depot (at full speed, not sure why), and then made off with a plump helmet each once the merchants started unpacking. Obviously food is rather less valuable than steel, but theoretically this too could tip the merchants into loss if you didn't buy much, assuming that profit/loss accounting is done this way. --[[User:Jenesis|Jenesis]] 19:01, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
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::::I am suspicious that this tallying of merchants goods when they leave the map might no longer be true.  Due to an incident where the traders would not leave my trade depot despite having the ability I forbid all the items there and then they left.  I did not realize that this caused all their items to remain.  I kept forbidding the depot so that I could time their departure perfectly with my draw bridges and many years later realized that I had all this garbage laying around that I never traded for...then I read that forbidding the depot makes the traders leave their things.
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::::I did this multiple times for each civs caravans and not a one laid siege to my fort.  They kept coming every year as happy as carp meeting a fishing dwarf.  (Version 40d16) --[[User:Frewfrux|Frewfrux]] 21:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
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== Wagon movement ==
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I'm pretty sure that wagons cannot move diagonally. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 20:08, 11 December 2008 (EST)
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They can, it just requires 7 tiles instead of 3 --[[User:Nightwind|Nightwind]] 04:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
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== Arrival dates ==
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Out of curiosity, has anybody given a closer look at the exact arrival dates of trade caravans?  Do they always arrive at a fixed time, or does it hover inside a certain period during the month or season?  --[[User:Shurikane|Shurikane]] 22:11, 29 December 2008 (EST)
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:I've kept track over about 5 years.  The Dwarf caravans seem to arrive around the 15th or 16th of Limestone and leave about the same time in Sandstone.  The Human caravans seem to arrive around the 12th to 14th of Hematite and leave in Malachite.  I don't have any data yet for the Elves.  Once I get some more data points, I'll edit the wiki to add this info.  --[[User:Mithra|Mithra]] 17:11, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
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:: Here I've got elves arriving the 11th of Granite. [[User:Timst|Timst]] 09:14, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
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::16th of hematite for humans here. 40d. Elves 11th too --[[User:Höhlenschreck|Höhlenschreck]] 10:53, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
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::They're supposed to leave one month to the day after they arrive - that's the same day number, next month.  For me, I've seen dwarf caravans arrive as early as the 10th, and as late as the 17th (but usually toward the first part of that, 10-12th). (Usually right after the first dogs whelp, but that's from the Growers Almanac.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 11:24, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
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==Wagons and magma==
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A dwarven trade caravan passing over a magma channel on its way to my trade depot recently caught fire. Naturally, this caused lots of [[fun]], but I'm a bit perplexed by it. There was nothing flammable on the bridge - in fact, the magma beneath was 1/7 deep at best - but it looks like the wagons just spontaneously combusted as they passed over the stream. Can anyone confirm that it was the magma that caused this, or were the children just playing with matches again? [[User:Aosher|Aosher]] 08:07, 14 January 2009 (EST)
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:Things catch on fire just by getting hot enough.  Wagons are made of wood.  Magma makes heat.  Have [[fun]].  If you need to check temperatures, look up Gibbed's "Dwarf Fortress Tweak".  Use the "Tile Edit" and you can see how hot it gets.  In Dwarven units.  I don't know the conversion.  But hot enough, wagons will [[40d:fire|autoignite]]. (also see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoignition autoignition] for real) --[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 06:53, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
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== Elven Caravan Wood Logs ==
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I noticed there was a "verify" next to "carries more wood the less trees you cut down" under the Elven Caravans and am not sure if it is right or not.  Can anyone confirm this?  I have observed the stock of wood brought by the elves in two games as increasing significantly with time.  In one of the games wood was scarce, in the other wood was plentiful but to dangerous to cut down and in both I would consistently buy out all of the wood logs from every caravan.  So I had theorized the increase in the number of logs brought was related to demand conveyed by buying out the stock repeatedly for years.  However, not cutting down trees and buying out all the wood logs would tend to go hand in hand.  Also, to really see a significant increase in a specific item I would need to buy out all the wood stock from a caravan for close several years.  It is possible that both the demand and level of "production" of wood determine how much is brought.  If either is true for wood, then it might be true for other items that Elves bring.  Also, did I format this thing right? --[[User:Pencilinhand|PencilinHand]] 8:47, 23 January 2009 (EST)
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:In my experience it's something more like - the more you have in stock, the less they bring. I was buying out all logs from them, and they brought ~120 logsevery year, and I chopped a lot of trees, but used them fast. Then I built some wooden machinery (axles, windmills), my stocks always showed about 100 logs in them after that, and elves began to bring only about 5 logs...--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 04:48, 23 January 2009 (EST)
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 +
::I did a series of experiments over a period of 3 years in my current fort and can confirm that Dorten is right and my previously stated theories are wrong.  A forts stockpile of wood appears to be the biggest factor in determining how much wood is brought by the elven caravans.  When I had a stockpile of 51 wood logs the elves brought no wood, when I had a stockpile of 0 wood logs they brought 43 wood logs, similar results were observed regardless of if I was cutting down trees during the year(though I did not test any clear cuts).  The other caravans may have brought more wood as well, but further testing is needed before I am confident in that statement, as it may have been caused by offerings/gifts.  --[[User:PencilinHand|PencilinHand]] 17:10, 25 January 2009 (EST)
 +
:::I've done some of my own testing and have found that '''all''' caravans follow this behavior - the less wood you have, the more caravans will bring. The trick is that with the human and dwarven caravans, the excess can be limited or eliminated outright if you've requested them to bring enough specific goods to reach their weight limit - if you go a year without making any requests, they'll bring tons of wood logs. An interesting way of manipulating this further is to simply '''forbid''' all of the logs in your fortress before the caravan arrives - doing this, I've made the elves bring nothing but wood when they would otherwise bring their typical goods (tested with save backups as well). Incidentally, actually requesting wood logs via the liaison doesn't really help much, since a maxed out request only makes them bring '''4''' logs of each type (which is near useless with the dwarves). --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 05:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
==Trade Depot Color==
 +
I know this doesn't have anything to do with trading, but it is interesting. Since Trade Depots are made out of 3 stones (or logs etc etc), if you combine stones of various colors, what do you get? I tried combining Orthoclase (yellow), Kimberlite (blue) and Olivine (green), and I got a green depot. Then I tried Gabbro (black) and 2 Orthoclase, and the depot was yellow. Kimberlite, Petrified Wood (red) and Olivine, the depot was green. Does anyone know how the color is selected?
 +
 +
:As far as I understand is the last stone for the color (or was it the first one?) --[[User:NobbZ|NobbZ]] 10:50, 23 February 2009 (EST)
 +
::I'll have to fire up the game again when I get home, but I could have sworn that I've occasionally wound up with two-tone depots when I've used different stones. The main part was one color while the corners were another. But maybe I'm just imagining things. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 09:49, 5 March 2009 (EST)
 +
:::I just built a trade depot out of 3 Orthoclase (yellow) and it turned out where about half of it was yellow and half was white. Not like a two tone either, just blotches of yellow and blotches of white... [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 04:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 +
::::Sounds like that might be a screen (or eye) problem. [[User:Arkenstone|Arkenstone]] 16:43, 19 August 2009
 +
:::::No... It's nothing like that. It's where different "block" of the Trade Depot appeared different colors. So, like some parts would have yellow blocks in it, where other parts would have white blocks. So... like...
 +
 +
WWWYW<br>
 +
WWYYY<br>
 +
WWWYY<br>
 +
WWWWY<br>
 +
 +
But not exactly that, I can't remember the exact design of it. [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 01:05, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
This all seems very odd.  Trying Kaolinite/Kaolinite/Flint... And it turned out all colored red like Kaolinite.  Flint/Flint/Kaolinite... Color of Flint.  Flint/Kaolinite/Kaolinite... Red. So far, just by simple majority.  Found some gypsum, trying all three... Jet/Gupsum/Kaolinite (didn't screw up, just used different grey stone)... Yellow.  Hmm.  But no blotchiness.  Shardok, if you can provide a screenshot, I'd love to see that.--[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 07:21, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 +
== stealing animals ==
 +
 +
One of the objects I happened to cheat the game of was a nickel cage with a dog in it. on the units page, the dog was still shown to belong to the traders. Is there any way to change this? (or at least any [http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Fun fun] to be had from this?)
 +
 +
: What happens when you [[kennel|train]] it into a war dog? or, for that matter, does the game recognize it as an animal that can be [[kennel|tamed]]? --[[User:FJH|FJH]] 15:15, 25 March 2009 (EST)
 +
 +
==Buggy behavior with sieges==
 +
 +
In my current game the dwarven caravan arrived, followed immediately by a goblin siege.  I crushed the siege but a couple caravan guards and a pack animal were killed.  A handful of merchants, guards and animals got stuck at the edge of the map, and I never got to trade, even though all the wagons made it safely into the depot. I was however able to make the usual arrangements with the liason.  Then I got the message that the caravan was leaving but they didn't actually go.  Has anyone else experienced anything like this?  Any way to fix it?  --[[User:FunkyWaltDogg|FunkyWaltDogg]] 23:43, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
:In case something like this happens to anyone else, I found that digging out the area under the stuck merchants and collapsing it fixed the problem.  The survivors started moving off the map and the wagons immediately pulled out of the depot. --[[User:FunkyWaltDogg|FunkyWaltDogg]] 05:20, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
== Limited Caravan Accessiblity ==
 +
 +
Contrary to the comments in the section on wagons, I do not believe you can force a caravan to enter the map at a specific point. Running 0.28.181.40d, I build a wall so that there is only one entrance to the map that is accessible to the depot. Humans arrived from another point of the map, and I got the message "Their wagons have bypassed your inaccessible site." I do see 'Depot accessible' on D. --[[User:Sfogarty|Sfogarty]] 05:49, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 +
:As for my experience, game first chooses the side of the map for traders, and then checks if wagons can reach depot. I had to chop trees yearly to keep fortress accessible before I've build a road. However, it can be not side but embarking tile that is chosen before accessibility check, but I haven't done any experiments to validate if it is the case. --[[User:Denspb|Denspb]] 10:19, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 +
:: I have a wall and tunnel to my depot - all traders arrive at the narrow 10 tile wide accessible entrance to my tunnel. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 05:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
== lazy dwarves ==
 +
 +
I just had a Human Caravan.
 +
 +
None of my dwarves did anything. Not a single mug or gem or meal was moved to the depot. I had to disable my broker's labors- ALL of his labors- to get him to speak with the diplomat following him about like a lost puppy.
 +
 +
Now, I see a 'priority' setting function in the Manager. Would this be practical or even usable to set Depot requests high?
 +
 +
: No, priority controls the making of goods, etc. It's likely that you may need to poke your dwarf with a stick (draft him) or something. Make sure the depot is accessible to your dwarves, not only to the wagons. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 05:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
::Make sure your dwarves have all the "hauling" labors enabled, that might be part of it. --[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 03:00, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
:::"Hauling" is ''not'' a prerequisite for hauling items to a TD. Any and all dwarves jump to the task.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 00:34, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 +
== Attacked caravan slowed down - bug? ==
 +
 +
All right, I was in my third or so year. Autumn came and the dwarven caravan showed up - along with a Goblin ambush. Naturally the two fought in front of my fortress (with some strategic ranged support from my marksdwarves). Of the three wagons, one was destroyed (phat lewt!). Thing is, once the Goblins were taken out of the pricture one of the wagons moved *very* slowly - slow enough, in fact, that it didn't even get into the trading depot before I got the message that the caravan was going to leave soon. The wagon froze at the edge of the depot, two steps shy of getting into position, and then they both just sat there - I never even got the option to trade with them :-/ Has anyone else encountered a similar issue or did my game just have a bout of cranial flatulence?
 +
 +
: I have seen my caravan ambushed by goblins (killing the ambush) and then retreat... No trade this season. I guess this kind of behaviour should go in the main page [[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 17:43, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
::It seems that when you request a large amount of heavy (literally) goods, the wagon (which actually counts as a creature that hauls items) might become encumbered and move very slowly. It might even be unable to reach the trade depot before the merchants leave, especially if the map forces it to move along a long path between trees. I might wrong, this needs testing. [[User:Mateusz|Mateusz]] 16:19, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 +
::''(Moved from [[bug]] main article by --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 18:11, 5 September 2009 (UTC))''
 +
 +
:::If the wagon is a creature can it get injured? If it were injured it might move slowly. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 05:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
::::I had some dwarven traders arrive and their wagons got stuck on a mountain slope.  I tried digging them out but they were moving sooooooooo slowly that I reloaded (I had saved just after the announcement of their arrival) and hurried to dig out that portion of the mountain before they hit it.  The result, after they past that point, was that one wagon (only one) got stuck on another part of the slope and after being dug out moved at the same rate of slowness as I had seen previously.  The rest of the wagons moved at normal speed (having never been stuck) to the depot.  If it’s not a bug, then the game is simulating broken axils on wagons that get stuck (which I highly doubt, but would admittedly be very cool).
 +
 +
::::The dwarves that arrived first at the depot unpacked, but I had to wait about three months for the last wagon to finally make it and itself unpack before being able to trade.  (I’m really surprised the first ones didn’t leave.) Once I did trade they all left at regular speed except the one wagon which took another several months for it to leave the map.  In fact, it may have been longer because very shortly afterwards the elven caravan showed up and there are two full seasons between the dwarves and elves.  (Version 40d16) --[[User:Frewfrux|Frewfrux]] 21:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
== requested items ==
 +
 +
Any time I request specific items... the next caravan turns up with exactly 1 of each item and nothing else.
 +
 +
So I get caravans turning up with a total of say 6 items.
 +
 +
Any suggestions?[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]]
 +
:Not sure. Maybe it depends on the actual availability of said items? In one game where I played in a pretty barren area and I asked my dwarven traders to bring lots of wood and they brought like 60 something of it the next season. When asking for meat, they bring plenty of it as well. What are you trying to request though? I requested some flux stone once and only got 6 flux stone rocks.--[[User:Smjjames|Smjjames]] 12:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 +
::example: various types of leather - I got 1 of some of the types.
 +
::I think maybe  I didn't send out enough value last time and I may have just made the same mistake. I'm trying too hard to get "value".[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 06:32, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 +
:::I also suspect it has to do with the avialability at the mountainhome - i get huge loads of requested wood, meat and specific types of leather, but bit coal, lignite, pig iron, steel bars and charcoal always only come in small amounts like, 6, though still more than when i do not request them (zero :( ) --[[User:Höhlenschreck|Höhlenschreck]] 20:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 +
::::It is of course also limited by the total capacity of the caravan. In the first two years its easy to "push out" all the crap they normally bring with requests. Later they will bring everything, and more of, what you request, but still not necessarily "much".. --[[User:Birthright|Birthright]] 15:23, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
== Merchant turned friendly ==
 +
Bug or feature? A macedwarf that came with the caravan lagged a bit behind when leaving and stopped 2 tiles from the border. When i checked with 'u' he had turned friendly. Now he's standing there guarding.. --[[User:Höhlenschreck|Höhlenschreck]] 20:16, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 +
:This happens whenever the merchants have all left and soldiers are left over. He will leave eventually. --[[User:Birthright|Birthright]] 15:19, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
== Forbidden Items? ==
 +
 +
I've never had green glass items refused by Elves, on my current or any other map.  My main export to everyone is green glass goblets on any map that supports cheap glass.  I don't need wood for them but then, I didn't think the trading system(or the elves, for that matter) was sophisticated enough to tell. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 19:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
:It seems that the Elves only refuse items that ''must'' have been made from wood, not ones that ''might'' have had wood involved. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 05:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
== Error ==
 +
I just had my first time ever true crash of DF - right on arrival of human caravan i got a message smth like "fatal error: nemesis failed to load unit". What does this mean and how do i find out if this is a known bug and where do i report it if not? --[[User:Confused|Confused]] 12:27, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 +
:Okay, google was my friend. For some odd reason all the files accompanying world.sav were gone, that causes this error. --[[User:Confused|Confused]] 16:09, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 +
::C - you're on the forums - you haven't ever heard of this?  See [http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=34936.0| Nemesis Errour]--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 18:51, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
== Self-Deconstructing Wagon? ==
  
:Ask and ye shall receive
+
I had a human caravan enter my map, and right where they entered was a group of bonobos. I was accustomed to the caravans plowing right through animals with no consequences, but this time, the wagon exploded as it touched the bonobo. The wagon was nowhere to be seen afterward, just all the trade goods it was carrying (in addition to one kapok log, which I suspect the wagon was built from). The rest of the caravan promptly ran away. The only thing I had built there was a rock block road. Has anyone else had anything like this happen, and if so, under what circumstances? --[[User:King of the Internet|King of the Internet]] 00:35, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
{|cellspacing=0 align=center
 
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|-
 
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|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Arrive at fortress location
 
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|colspan=3 rowspan=5 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Create Goods
 
|colspan=3|
 
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Build Depot
 
|-
 
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|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for caravan
 
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|-
 
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Set goods to be traded
 
|colspan=3|
 
|colspan=3 rowspan=5 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for caravan to arrive at depot and merchants to finish unloading
 
|-
 
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|style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" height=20|
 
|-
 
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Wait for goods to be hauled
 
|-
 
|
 
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|-
 
|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Request the trader at the depot and turn off his other labours
 
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|colspan=3 style="border: 1px solid #aaa;" align=center|Trade
 
|}
 
You'll note I shifted the location of requesting trader --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 08:46, 6 May 2008 (EDT)
 
  
== Offerings ==
+
:That happens when a wagon is killed, all of the goods fly out, the Bonobo probably attacked it, and the rest of the traders always run away if a caravan is destroyed.--[[User:CrazyMcfobo|CrazyMcfobo]] 01:42, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
  
Can anyone expound on the function of {{K|o}}ffering goods as gifts to traders? I tried giving the elves about 1000 worth of tchotchkes, and the next year they showed up with more goods than I've ever seen -- lots of caged animals, whereas I usually get very few, and so on. However, other times I gave them more and it seemed nothing changed. [[User:Anydwarf|Anydwarf]] 12:01, 7 May 2008 (EDT)
+
:I had this happen to me too.  A caravan arrive just as a bunch of Orcs did.  I wasn't watching, but they must have toasted one wagon and the caravan fled off the map.  It was frustrating for two reasons. First, being on the very edge of the map, the clean up was terrible, and second, all the items dropped were marked as stolen.[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 15:54, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
  
Gifts to the traders (and large trading profits) should increase the number of traders / wagons you get the following year, so they'll bring more stuff to trade. AFAIK no-one knows about the numbers for sure though. [[User:Samyotix|Samyotix]] 14:51, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
+
:So should it be noted on the page that normally-passive animals can attack the caravan, sending everyone back home? --[[User:King of the Internet|King of the Internet]] 21:22, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
  
== Add hint: "Buy everything ... in case you get a strange mood"? ==
+
:Indeed, I had a similar problem happen to me. My game paused and zoomed towards a goblin snatcher, but I couldn't find the little guy. A few frames later, he was standing in the middle of the former wagon as the horses ran off, leaving the trade goods behind for me to snag. --[[User:Alkyon|Alkyon]] 19:35, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
  
Personally I've found it very useful to do this:
+
:Oddly enough, I've had this happen when there were no enemies, or any thief or attacking creatures on the map, in fact, wild animals at all being very scarce.  The way I put it is that the caravan vaporized on its way out.--[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 07:41, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
  
When traders arrive,
+
== D hotkey removed in .40d? ==
a) optionally check stocks.
 
b) Buy everything you can't make or harvest in your own fort.
 
c) In the diplomat meeting, order everything you can't make or harvest.
 
  
To be specific: Thread, Silk, cloth, metal bars (anything else?).
+
I tried to see which paths the caravan could take using D: nothing came up, and it's not on the hotkey menu.
  
The reason:  
+
Edit: Nevermind, it's back. Don't know where it went. @_@
a) Dwarves sometimes demand items out of some metal or alloy they like.
+
: You need a trade depot so you can use the command. As soon as you'll order to build a trade depot, you can use it. It'll be all red, until the trade depot is constructed. --[[User:Karl|Karl]] 12:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
b) Dwarves who are possessed or get a strange mood will sometimes demand silk or cloth.
 
  
Players who proactively (harr!) seek to stock materials for possible moods will IMO have much less of a problem with dwarves going insane from moods. However I couldn't figure out where (or if) I should insert that, so I'll just add this idea (adding a hint: buy everything you don't have) to the discussion.
+
== Offering to the Elves ==
  
Also, as far as I know, possessed/moody dwarves in the current version (27.176.38c) do not demand specific items. Rather, they want a) any metal bar b) any metal ore c) Silk d) Cloth e) wood f) raw gem g) any stone ... that was it, right?. So probably such a hint could read something like:
+
In an attempt to piss off the Elves, I offered them a piece of raw clear glass and they happily accepted it. Last I checked, they dislike clear glass because of the pearlash used in its construction. Attempting to '''trade''' them tower-cap logs, however, was successful in getting them angry, as was simply seizing their 30 bins of cloth. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 00:11, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 +
:Just now, I attempted to offer them a tower-cap log and they were annoyed as a result. Exactly why they accepted a piece of raw clear glass last time is beyond me... --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 00:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 +
::Raw clear glass is a gem, this may be why the accepted it. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 05:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
:::...as stated, a gem made using '''pearlash''' (which can only be made by burning wood into ashes). --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 06:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
::::Exactly; there may be a bug in that gems don't track their component parts; it would have to be tested. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 07:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
  
"NOTE: If your fortress cannot harvest silk, it would be useful to order some from the caravans. If you do not have a cloth industry yet, maybe order some cloth as well. Having a small stock of materials which you are not actively using in your economy - e.g. GCS silk - will increase the likelihood of your fortress gaining an artifact from any mood or possession."
+
== Weird Bug ==
[[User:Samyotix|Samyotix]] 14:49, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
  
== Clear the perimeter? ==
+
For some reason goblets won`t show up in the trade screen. I have some 200 very close to the Depot but they won´t show. I tried forbidding/claiming them to no avail, i aslo tried to make a goblet dump in the depot but that didn´t work either. Anyone else had this happen?
 +
: Do any of your nobles like goblets? One of them may have [[Mandate#Export Bans|forbidden goblets from being exported]]. See [[Trading#Move Goods to/from Depot]] and try {{k|m}} in the item selection screen. --[[User:HebaruSan|HebaruSan]] 13:35, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 +
::They may also have forbidden the export of the material the goblets were made of. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 05:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
:::Look at the details on the items to see if any of your dwarves own the items.  Those won't show up. --[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 03:05, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  
Is clearing the entire perimeter of the map really necessary? While my depot has been accessible at all, the caravan has '''always''' appeared at a point with access to the depot. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 13:13, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
+
== Constructed Ramps ==
:What the article says is:
 
:#Caravans enter the map from a random direction which does not coincide with the relative direction of the originating civilization,
 
:#they may appear from different directions or z-levels each year
 
:#they cannot use stairs
 
:#they may leave without trading if it takes too long to reach the trade depot
 
:With the above points in mind:
 
:#In order to guarantee perfect, permanent wagon accessibility, a three tile path must be cleared around the entire perimeter of the map, with at least one joining path from the border to the trade depot. Any parts of this path system which have grass must be paved with floor tiles, bridges, or roads to prevent trees from growing. Ramps must be used to adjust z-level elevation.
 
  
I have certainly had a depot accessible to the southern border, then had the human merchants only turn up with mules because they were approaching from a different direction.  
+
It seems that wagons cannot pass over constructed ramps. Could someone add that to the page? [[Special:Contributions/76.184.150.59|76.184.150.59]] 16:47, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 +
:They can definitely travel '''along''' constructed ramps. Oddly, they can even travel along constructed ramps that aren't braced by walls on the proper side. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 20:01, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 +
::One of my fortresses has its entrance outdoors, only accessible by constructed ramps.  Wagons use them all the time.  I also tried building a ramp in the middle of the wagon path in another fortress (not that such a ramp could ever be useful) and it still shows as accessible.  Are you sure you're using ramps correctly?  (They have to be next to natural or constructed walls, not just floors on the next level.) --[[User:LaVacaMorada|LaVacaMorada]] 20:24, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
  
The recommendations are how to ensure the human wagons turn up every summer (it also helps to remember to have your drawbridge down as soon as summer commences!) If you are not so concerned about human merchants then ignore the advice. If you don't have enough dwarf-power then ignore the advice. Some of it only needs to be done once (ie: adjusting slopes), and some of it just gives you more territory to consider for defending from invaders (being open to merchants also opens you to invaders).[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 00:33, 13 July 2008 (EDT)
 
  
==Seizing goods==
+
== No Dwarven Caravans? ==
"It is worth noting that in the Mac port (untested for other ports), you can simply remove the depot that the merchants are camped out on to recieve all their goods."
 
  
I can confirm that this also works in the PC version.[[User:Moonman|Moonman]] 14:07, 13 July 2008 (EDT)
+
I have noticed that if you don't have any elves or human civs near that you don't get any caravans from them, but does the same apply to dwarven civs? My fortress so far has had no contact with any race, including dwarven caravans, after 2 years. This is a two fold problem, because I don't get caravans or immigrants because no caravan ever reports my now crazy wealth. Is this normal or a bug? [[Special:Contributions/194.74.22.170|194.74.22.170]] 22:13, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 +
:You should always get a Dwarven caravan. Were there any reports about migrants being too scared? Is the Depot accessible? --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 05:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
::Maybe not on an island.  If your fortress exists on a totally water-locked plot, there might not be a way for them to get to you. Curious how ''you'' got there, though, eh?--[[User:Admiral Urist|Admiral Urist]] 06:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
  
== Empty caravans ==
+
== Why not just go underground? ==
 +
This probably isn't an original idea, but I didn't see it listed, so I figured I'd post it here.
 +
Crowded maps, especially in the jungle areas, where trees will grow back and there's all sorts of nasty things waiting to eat an untended mason/woodcutter, why not just dig a wide road underground to the edge of the map, put some ramps up to the top level and then clear the caravan arrival space?  An underground road means less chance of wild beasties attacking the caravan, and probably takes less time since, if you're like me, you have more miners than woodcutters.  Plus it seems like miners are more attentive to their work than cutters.
 +
Goblins might make use of it, but it's fairly easy to guard/trap, since it's only, say, five or six tiles across.  It worked for the Dorfs of Dragon Age, so why not for DF dorfs?
  
human, elf, and dwarf caravans bringing me nothing.
+
:It does work, and is great. On really evil or dangerous maps, I will make an underground tunnel three tiles wide all the way to the edge of the map, and post walls such that the caravan must come down my tunnel. Works great, but not often useful. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 06:30, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
is it possible to have a depot too full? --[[User:Eerr|Eerr]] 07:30, 28 July 2008 (EDT)
 
  
:In recent versions of the game I've noticed that traders, after their initial visit, will only bring what was mentioned in your previous trade agreement with them. In earlier versions they'd bring all sorts of tat along too. Did you perhaps not request any goods for import? I don't imagine this could affect the Elves as well though. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 08:02, 28 July 2008 (EDT)
+
== Craft Bins Disappearing ==
  
::Prior to the latest group of releases, I'd been getting empty caravans for a LONG time, Elves and Humans alike, and occasionally even the Dwarves. Hasn't happened to me in the e release yet though (hadn't spent too much time on the other releases). --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 13:13, 28 July 2008 (EDT)
+
Recently, an elven caravan rolled on up to my fortress and, when unloading their oodles of wood and cloth in the 'ol depot, I casually sent my trader in to conduct his business. To my surprise, I failed to spot "Crafts" in the Move Goods menu. At first I thought that my fatigue was playing tricks on me but upon closer inspection the category was simply gone. I selected 'sorting by distance', since the mound of craft bins is only a step or two away from the depot itself, but no Finished Good bins appeared. This is the first time this has happened to me. Pondering on it a bit I traced the problem to a mandate made by one of the nobles, banning export of crowns. Crowns are indeed a craft, but does that mean that ''none'' of the other crafts are exportable, to boot? Or is it simply that if a bin has a crown in it it's considered null in the Move Goods menu? Some insight appreciated. --[[User:Bronzebeard|Bronzebeard]] 12:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 +
: Your suspicion is correct - if a particular good is under an export ban, '''all''' bins containing '''any''' of that item will be excluded from your trade list. In order to actually see them and bring them to the depot, you'll need to turn off mandate culling. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 17:34, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
  
== starvation ==
 
  
it must be because they brought food to my starving settlement
+
== Need info on how much needs to be exported to get the human caravans attention ==
(dwarves will run out and get food straight from the caravan)
 
  
== Added a small bit. ==
+
Yea I added that bit about the human caravan bieng triggered by exports, but honestly, I don't actually know how much. I just know and suspected, that you need some amount of exports to get their attention. So, if anybody knows the answer.....
 +
--[[User:Smjjames|Smjjames]] 16:58, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
  
I quickly changed the section about the possible exploit of deleting a trade depot from Mac-only-bug to an across the board phenomenon.
 
  
== Caravan at Inaccessible Depot ==
+
== Wagons can fly? ==
  
I assume it is related to the 3 wide path only showing as 1 green square, but the caravan has stopped at a trade depot that is listed as inaccessible. Does this mean that some trade depots will show bad with SHIFT-D but are actually okay? --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 21:15, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
+
I decided to fit my fortress with a trade depot that was suspended over a 7x7 pipe, that leads all the way to the bottom level of the map. I was pretty disappointed, then, when I found that the Wagon continued to mill about in mid air after the merchants had all fallen to their deaths =\
 +
The merchant guards are lying in about 20 pieces in the recesses of my fortress, but now the wagon is hovering in "open space", and I've built floors around it but can't build beneath it to put a new depot there. Am I going to have to build a catapult and knock it out of the air or something? =\
  
:The three-wide path showing only one green square is, to my knowledge, correct. That green is the center of the path, along which the center of the wagon must align with to fit within the three-wide path. --[[User:Mattmoss|Mattmoss]] 23:14, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
+
== Value of Caravan Guards? ==
  
::Thanks.  It'd be nice then if the Shift-D showed that as a caravan accessible depot then. --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 01:21, 9 August 2008 (EDT)
+
So each caravan calculates the total value of the items it carries when determining if and how much of a profit they make when leaving, right? Do the items carried by caravan guards factor into this? For instance, if an ambush comes along and wipes out half the guard, am I going to have to be extra generous to the merchants to keep them coming with more goods next year? --[[User:Loyal|Loyal]] 20:28, 11 January 2010 (EST)
  
:::Correction: It does, there was a boulder in the way that I did not see. --[[User:Aristoi|Aristoi]] 22:10, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
+
== names cut off ==
  
== 50% profit rule ==
+
how do i tell what i am trading for in the trading screen?
 +
te things on the left often have their names cut off co i cant see what type of item i am trading for.
 +
: use the [v] key (view good) command to examine it in detail. [[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 15:01, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 +
::An alterntate to this, which doesn't work in the trading screen, but works in {{key|k}} and {{key|t}} displays is pressing {{key|Tab}} until the dialog portion is 2 sections wide.  Just as an additional hint. --[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 02:56, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  
This really, REALLY needs to be made clearer in the game. There's nothing wrong with the trader telling us how much profit he'd expect from our goods! I've got tens of thousands worth of goods that I haven't sold for two years straight because the bloody traders wouldn't tell me how much they want, and I didn't find the 50% rule buried in this article until just now! --[[User:Theory|Theory]] 09:36, 13 August 2008 (EDT)
+
== Faster than a speeding bullet wagon? ==
 +
One of the wagons of my most recent dwarven caravan seems to be powered by rockets of some sort. The thing managed to zoom onto my screen, travel the hundred or so tiles of my entrance, down some ramps and arrive at the depot before the unbelievably agile woodcutter it passed could go more than a dozen tiles. It was the only wagon to do that, and the rest arrived several minutes later. Has anyone else seen something like this?
 +
: I can second this, though it happened to one of my sister's fortresses and not mine. I believe she even got a video of Superwagon leaving...

Latest revision as of 17:28, 16 August 2010

Archive
Archives
  1. The talk page from Caravan, which wasn't merged properly at the time.
  2. The first archive of Talk:Trading.

Dead Wagons on Depot Deconstruct Exploit[edit]

You can take every item from a caravan by deconstructing a depot while the caravan is in it. The items aren't marked as stolen if you do this. But in the units screen, any wagons that were in the depot will appear as deceased. It's because the trader's wagon is a creature. Specifically, it's the center tile of the wagon. That's why the Depot Access view only shows where the center tile of the "wagon" can get to. I'd kind of like to point this out here, or perhaps on the page specifically about wagons, to identify the difference between the trade wagons and your starting wagon, which is a building.

Also, Dwarves still won't siege you, and this particular exploit can make the game ridiculously easy if you only deconstruct on the Dwarven caravan.--Kydo 02:48, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

That exploit is already discussed in this article. And the distinction between embark wagons and trade wagons has (also) already been made clear on the wagon page (which the key word most users would Search for, I'd think - and where I'd think we should be having this discussion?) If you want to put a footnote in that article, so long as it isn't adding more confusion than clarification (that is, it doesn't devolve into pointless detail and supposition), more info can't be a bad thing.--Albedo 15:03, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Well, the wagon article seems to focus almost exclusively with the starting wagon, and only mentions the trade wagons once. In fact, reading over it again, it only mentions trade caravans. Nothing about the wagons therein, or the distinction. Still, I agree with you that this is more about the wagons than about that exploit, and the conversation should be over there, not here.--Kydo 02:48, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Culling on mandates[edit]

what's that? in the trade screen? me no be native speaker...--Koltom 21:56, 20 February 2008 (EST)

I think it means that it will hide things that are not allowed to be traded: "Mayor has put bans on certain exports". But I don't know if it hides an entire bin if one item in it is banned. Hex Decimal 14:29, 27 February 2008 (EST)
I am quite sure that "culling on mandates: on" hides all bins containing items which have active Noble Export Bans. Samyotix 09:16, 13 November 2008 (EST)
I made a "trading color cues" subsection. This should cover relevant info about mandates and other things. --Shurikane 22:07, 29 December 2008 (EST)

Trading flowchart[edit]

Suggested trading procedure
Arrive at fortress location
Create goods Build Trade Depot
Check depot is accessible
Wait for caravan
Set goods to be traded Wait for caravan to arrive at depot and merchants to finish unloading Wait for the diplomat (if any) to reach your leader
Wait for goods to be hauled Turn your leader's labors off so they don't get distracted
Conduct meetings with the diplomat
Request trader at depot
Turn your trader's labors off so they don't get distracted
Trade
Turn trader's and leader's labors back on
Retrieve bins from depot to reuse


Given a number of questions on the forums, it may be a good idea to put together a flowchart of the steps involved in trading. I will draft something up here (at least partially so I can safely screw up my first attempt on this wiki)

Tasks are sequential top-to-bottom, but can be done in parallel left-to-right

Make or obtain goods to trade Build Depot (b - D)
Ensure Depot is accessible (D)

Check green area reaches edge of map

Wait until a caravan arrives on the map

"A--- caravan from --- has arrived."

Set goods to be traded (q - g) Request a trader (q - r) Wait for caravan to reach the depot

"Merchants have arrived and are unloading their goods"

Wait for goods to be hauled Wait for the trader to finish their other tasks and go to the depot Wait for the rest of the caravan to reach the depot and be unloaded
Begin actual trading (q - t)

Hmm. Is there a better way to show this? It may not help much as is... Kaypy

Ask and ye shall receive (see right, editable at Trading/Flowchart). --juckto 08:46, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

Re: Adeptable's changes
I don't think the third branch is neccesary. For one, it makes it seem too wide, and secondary it implies that turning off the trader's labours all the time means that trading will happen faster - almost as if it will make merchants arrive more often. --juckto 23:36, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

I'd add retrieving empty bins to the bottom so that you don't end up with empty bins sitting at the depot. When stockpiles are crowded you'll need them to deal with the sudden influx of goods. (Never give away bins!) I bow to your wiki-fu, I simply could not edit your flowchart... --Corona688 14:15, 3 December 2008 (EST)
Yeah, it's a bit tricky I guess. It's all in the colspan :p. But, ahhh, how do you retreive them? I thought dwarves would automatically fetch empty bins from the depot if they needed them, just like fetching them from any other location. --juckto 18:31, 3 December 2008 (EST)
Ack, somehow didn't see this. Empty bins will still show up as Trading in the bring goods to depot menu, unmark them and your dwarves will haul them back to where they're needed. --Corona688 02:13, 7 January 2009 (EST)
Surely the bins' "Trading" status disappears after the Trader leaves? I mean, I've never noticed them as still being marked for "Trading" when the next caravan arrives next season. --juckto 22:08, 23 January 2009 (EST)


How many wagons?[edit]

I don't think I've ever seen more than 8 wagons in a given caravan. Is that the limit? Has anyone ever seen more than 8?--Maximus 03:01, 9 November 2008 (EST)

I've never seen more than two at a time before flooding my fortress. I didn't realize they could send more than two at a time. Kydo 14:20, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Mass selection of goods to be moved[edit]

Question: Is there a way to designate multiple goods in one selection to be brought to the depot?

I'm getting really tired of indivually selecting goods to be moved to the depot when I have massive amounts of crafts, food, etc. So is anyone familiar with ways to select multiple goods at once? Maybe a "start" and "end" tags (for lack of a better name) and every good caught inbetween is designated to be moved to the depot? -- Dakira 14:47 10 November 2008 (PST)

Nope. About the best you can do is use the select (search) menu to get all the ones of the type you want, then enter-down-enter-down. You can flag about 200 a minute this way, though.--Maximus 19:17, 10 November 2008 (EST)
That's what I was doing previously. Are there any plans for a "mass selector" to be introduced? -- Dakira 16:50 10 November 2008 (PST)
Not that I know of. Make a feature request on the forums.--Maximus 20:05, 10 November 2008 (EST)
AFAIK, there is no good way to do this from the trade screen, which is why it's important to set up custom stockpiles and have plenty of bins. Man, I really wish you could make bins out of stone.
Auto Hotkey thingy. Heard it works wonders. Never tried it though.--Zchris13 15:19, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Merchant moods[edit]

My fortress hadn't been doing too well, but I didn't know it was so bad it could affect merchants... and their pack animals. As the last merchant was about to leave the map, he suddenly went berserk and was cut down by his bodyguard, who then fled the scene. Shortly thereafter, I recieved a message that the donkey had been stricken by melacholy. Has anyone else had this happen?

They usually eventually go nuts if they can't leave for some reason. Never heard of something like what you're describing.--Maximus 03:24, 12 November 2008 (EST)
Just got something close happening. They entered the map, and were chased off the map by goblins then the merchant went melancholy and a pack mule went stark raving mad. The only difference here is that one of them was actually killed before they left the map, so it could be he was unhappy over that. But still surprised that the merchants can get these kinds of moods and even weirder that the animals can... Shardok 10:38, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
They also immediately go crazy if they see a dwarf that's gone berserk. Or at least seem to do so. (Had a merchant go crazy immediately upon entering a map near a failed-mood berserk dwarf who i hadn't bothered to deal with because he had run away from where i was working.) --Squirrelloid 12:03, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

No more dwarven caravan[edit]

So. The Dwarven caravan has not come in the past two years. I think, though I am not sure, that this corresponds with when I met the requirements for the Incoming King, though he has not yet seen fit to arrive. I believe I also capped the population sometime in there, but I think it was after the first year of no caravan. I don't recall in any way molesting previous caravans. I needs me some dolomite and steel bars, anyone know what's going on here? --Zombiejustice 02:10, 13 November 2008 (EST)

So. I upper the population cap to encourage some immigration, and after a few seasons, the King showed up with his retinue and the Hammerer, who had apparently died at some point. I re-capped the population, and the caravan came next autumn. Was it the incoming king or the dead hammerer? Did the population cap interfere with the king's arrival? The mystery remains. --Zombiejustice 14:59, 2 December 2008 (EST)
I'm on year 13 of my most recent fortress and the Dwarven caravan declined to show up this year, after 12 years of no problem. I still don't meet the requirements for the Incoming King. In a previous game I did meet those requirements, and that did not interfere with the caravan (though the liason stopped letting me place orders once the king arrived). Anyway, I don't think my current fort has anything in common with what you've described, other than a mysteriously missing caravan after not damaging previous ones. --Sev 00:52, 7 January 2009 (EST)
It appears my problem was caused by a brief goblin siege that occurred when the caravan was supposed to be showing up. --Sev 16:48, 26 January 2009 (EST)

A query from the deleted page Talk:Stealing[edit]

I've read many times that the traders count their total losses/profits when they leave the edge of the map, so as to make stealing of any sort impossible (to get away with, anyhow). Does this include what the guards are carrying (if they get killed or even just shoot off some bolts)? Or is the "total profit" concept true at all? --Maximus 17:07, 27 November 2008 (EST)

I'm pretty sure that the total profit concept is how it works. The value of everything the traders enter with is subtracted from the value of everything the traders leave with to calculate profit. There's probably something in there to account for the death of (a) trader(s). --Savok 21:42, 28 November 2008 (EST)
is this still true?
i was unwittingly stealing everything off the merchants via the stocks screen. i dont have any steel yet, as i've not found any flux or iron ore. but every now and again, i noticed i had a bunch of steel/iron weapons/bolts/armo(u)r, so designated it all for melting, etc, etc.. eventually, i chose to 'dump' everything to see where they were getting it, and they were stripping the merchants of all their goods/clothes/everything metal xD will they come and siege me anytime soon? my army's not ready yet! i do give good profit margins (20%+), but i'm sure the stuff i nick is much more valuable :/ --DJ Devil
I've noticed that starving dwarves appear to be happy to steal food from merchants. I'm running 0.28.181.40d, and, being new to this, almost experienced fun due to lack of food. The dwarven caravan arrived in the nick of time, and rather to my surprise once they got close a clump of dwarves started hobbling their way over to the caravan. Once they got to it they started following it back to the depot (at full speed, not sure why), and then made off with a plump helmet each once the merchants started unpacking. Obviously food is rather less valuable than steel, but theoretically this too could tip the merchants into loss if you didn't buy much, assuming that profit/loss accounting is done this way. --Jenesis 19:01, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
I am suspicious that this tallying of merchants goods when they leave the map might no longer be true. Due to an incident where the traders would not leave my trade depot despite having the ability I forbid all the items there and then they left. I did not realize that this caused all their items to remain. I kept forbidding the depot so that I could time their departure perfectly with my draw bridges and many years later realized that I had all this garbage laying around that I never traded for...then I read that forbidding the depot makes the traders leave their things.
I did this multiple times for each civs caravans and not a one laid siege to my fort. They kept coming every year as happy as carp meeting a fishing dwarf. (Version 40d16) --Frewfrux 21:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Wagon movement[edit]

I'm pretty sure that wagons cannot move diagonally. --Savok 20:08, 11 December 2008 (EST)


They can, it just requires 7 tiles instead of 3 --Nightwind 04:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Arrival dates[edit]

Out of curiosity, has anybody given a closer look at the exact arrival dates of trade caravans? Do they always arrive at a fixed time, or does it hover inside a certain period during the month or season? --Shurikane 22:11, 29 December 2008 (EST)

I've kept track over about 5 years. The Dwarf caravans seem to arrive around the 15th or 16th of Limestone and leave about the same time in Sandstone. The Human caravans seem to arrive around the 12th to 14th of Hematite and leave in Malachite. I don't have any data yet for the Elves. Once I get some more data points, I'll edit the wiki to add this info. --Mithra 17:11, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Here I've got elves arriving the 11th of Granite. Timst 09:14, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
16th of hematite for humans here. 40d. Elves 11th too --Höhlenschreck 10:53, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
They're supposed to leave one month to the day after they arrive - that's the same day number, next month. For me, I've seen dwarf caravans arrive as early as the 10th, and as late as the 17th (but usually toward the first part of that, 10-12th). (Usually right after the first dogs whelp, but that's from the Growers Almanac.)--Albedo 11:24, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Wagons and magma[edit]

A dwarven trade caravan passing over a magma channel on its way to my trade depot recently caught fire. Naturally, this caused lots of fun, but I'm a bit perplexed by it. There was nothing flammable on the bridge - in fact, the magma beneath was 1/7 deep at best - but it looks like the wagons just spontaneously combusted as they passed over the stream. Can anyone confirm that it was the magma that caused this, or were the children just playing with matches again? Aosher 08:07, 14 January 2009 (EST)

Things catch on fire just by getting hot enough. Wagons are made of wood. Magma makes heat. Have fun. If you need to check temperatures, look up Gibbed's "Dwarf Fortress Tweak". Use the "Tile Edit" and you can see how hot it gets. In Dwarven units. I don't know the conversion. But hot enough, wagons will autoignite. (also see autoignition for real) --Aescula 06:53, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Elven Caravan Wood Logs[edit]

I noticed there was a "verify" next to "carries more wood the less trees you cut down" under the Elven Caravans and am not sure if it is right or not. Can anyone confirm this? I have observed the stock of wood brought by the elves in two games as increasing significantly with time. In one of the games wood was scarce, in the other wood was plentiful but to dangerous to cut down and in both I would consistently buy out all of the wood logs from every caravan. So I had theorized the increase in the number of logs brought was related to demand conveyed by buying out the stock repeatedly for years. However, not cutting down trees and buying out all the wood logs would tend to go hand in hand. Also, to really see a significant increase in a specific item I would need to buy out all the wood stock from a caravan for close several years. It is possible that both the demand and level of "production" of wood determine how much is brought. If either is true for wood, then it might be true for other items that Elves bring. Also, did I format this thing right? --PencilinHand 8:47, 23 January 2009 (EST)

In my experience it's something more like - the more you have in stock, the less they bring. I was buying out all logs from them, and they brought ~120 logsevery year, and I chopped a lot of trees, but used them fast. Then I built some wooden machinery (axles, windmills), my stocks always showed about 100 logs in them after that, and elves began to bring only about 5 logs...--Dorten 04:48, 23 January 2009 (EST)
I did a series of experiments over a period of 3 years in my current fort and can confirm that Dorten is right and my previously stated theories are wrong. A forts stockpile of wood appears to be the biggest factor in determining how much wood is brought by the elven caravans. When I had a stockpile of 51 wood logs the elves brought no wood, when I had a stockpile of 0 wood logs they brought 43 wood logs, similar results were observed regardless of if I was cutting down trees during the year(though I did not test any clear cuts). The other caravans may have brought more wood as well, but further testing is needed before I am confident in that statement, as it may have been caused by offerings/gifts. --PencilinHand 17:10, 25 January 2009 (EST)
I've done some of my own testing and have found that all caravans follow this behavior - the less wood you have, the more caravans will bring. The trick is that with the human and dwarven caravans, the excess can be limited or eliminated outright if you've requested them to bring enough specific goods to reach their weight limit - if you go a year without making any requests, they'll bring tons of wood logs. An interesting way of manipulating this further is to simply forbid all of the logs in your fortress before the caravan arrives - doing this, I've made the elves bring nothing but wood when they would otherwise bring their typical goods (tested with save backups as well). Incidentally, actually requesting wood logs via the liaison doesn't really help much, since a maxed out request only makes them bring 4 logs of each type (which is near useless with the dwarves). --Quietust 05:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Trade Depot Color[edit]

I know this doesn't have anything to do with trading, but it is interesting. Since Trade Depots are made out of 3 stones (or logs etc etc), if you combine stones of various colors, what do you get? I tried combining Orthoclase (yellow), Kimberlite (blue) and Olivine (green), and I got a green depot. Then I tried Gabbro (black) and 2 Orthoclase, and the depot was yellow. Kimberlite, Petrified Wood (red) and Olivine, the depot was green. Does anyone know how the color is selected?

As far as I understand is the last stone for the color (or was it the first one?) --NobbZ 10:50, 23 February 2009 (EST)
I'll have to fire up the game again when I get home, but I could have sworn that I've occasionally wound up with two-tone depots when I've used different stones. The main part was one color while the corners were another. But maybe I'm just imagining things. -Fuzzy 09:49, 5 March 2009 (EST)
I just built a trade depot out of 3 Orthoclase (yellow) and it turned out where about half of it was yellow and half was white. Not like a two tone either, just blotches of yellow and blotches of white... Shardok 04:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Sounds like that might be a screen (or eye) problem. Arkenstone 16:43, 19 August 2009
No... It's nothing like that. It's where different "block" of the Trade Depot appeared different colors. So, like some parts would have yellow blocks in it, where other parts would have white blocks. So... like...

WWWYW
WWYYY
WWWYY
WWWWY

But not exactly that, I can't remember the exact design of it. Shardok 01:05, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

This all seems very odd. Trying Kaolinite/Kaolinite/Flint... And it turned out all colored red like Kaolinite. Flint/Flint/Kaolinite... Color of Flint. Flint/Kaolinite/Kaolinite... Red. So far, just by simple majority. Found some gypsum, trying all three... Jet/Gupsum/Kaolinite (didn't screw up, just used different grey stone)... Yellow. Hmm. But no blotchiness. Shardok, if you can provide a screenshot, I'd love to see that.--Aescula 07:21, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

stealing animals[edit]

One of the objects I happened to cheat the game of was a nickel cage with a dog in it. on the units page, the dog was still shown to belong to the traders. Is there any way to change this? (or at least any fun to be had from this?)

What happens when you train it into a war dog? or, for that matter, does the game recognize it as an animal that can be tamed? --FJH 15:15, 25 March 2009 (EST)

Buggy behavior with sieges[edit]

In my current game the dwarven caravan arrived, followed immediately by a goblin siege. I crushed the siege but a couple caravan guards and a pack animal were killed. A handful of merchants, guards and animals got stuck at the edge of the map, and I never got to trade, even though all the wagons made it safely into the depot. I was however able to make the usual arrangements with the liason. Then I got the message that the caravan was leaving but they didn't actually go. Has anyone else experienced anything like this? Any way to fix it? --FunkyWaltDogg 23:43, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

In case something like this happens to anyone else, I found that digging out the area under the stuck merchants and collapsing it fixed the problem. The survivors started moving off the map and the wagons immediately pulled out of the depot. --FunkyWaltDogg 05:20, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Limited Caravan Accessiblity[edit]

Contrary to the comments in the section on wagons, I do not believe you can force a caravan to enter the map at a specific point. Running 0.28.181.40d, I build a wall so that there is only one entrance to the map that is accessible to the depot. Humans arrived from another point of the map, and I got the message "Their wagons have bypassed your inaccessible site." I do see 'Depot accessible' on D. --Sfogarty 05:49, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

As for my experience, game first chooses the side of the map for traders, and then checks if wagons can reach depot. I had to chop trees yearly to keep fortress accessible before I've build a road. However, it can be not side but embarking tile that is chosen before accessibility check, but I haven't done any experiments to validate if it is the case. --Denspb 10:19, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
I have a wall and tunnel to my depot - all traders arrive at the narrow 10 tile wide accessible entrance to my tunnel. --Bombcar 05:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

lazy dwarves[edit]

I just had a Human Caravan.

None of my dwarves did anything. Not a single mug or gem or meal was moved to the depot. I had to disable my broker's labors- ALL of his labors- to get him to speak with the diplomat following him about like a lost puppy.

Now, I see a 'priority' setting function in the Manager. Would this be practical or even usable to set Depot requests high?

No, priority controls the making of goods, etc. It's likely that you may need to poke your dwarf with a stick (draft him) or something. Make sure the depot is accessible to your dwarves, not only to the wagons. --Bombcar 05:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Make sure your dwarves have all the "hauling" labors enabled, that might be part of it. --Aescula 03:00, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
"Hauling" is not a prerequisite for hauling items to a TD. Any and all dwarves jump to the task.--Albedo 00:34, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Attacked caravan slowed down - bug?[edit]

All right, I was in my third or so year. Autumn came and the dwarven caravan showed up - along with a Goblin ambush. Naturally the two fought in front of my fortress (with some strategic ranged support from my marksdwarves). Of the three wagons, one was destroyed (phat lewt!). Thing is, once the Goblins were taken out of the pricture one of the wagons moved *very* slowly - slow enough, in fact, that it didn't even get into the trading depot before I got the message that the caravan was going to leave soon. The wagon froze at the edge of the depot, two steps shy of getting into position, and then they both just sat there - I never even got the option to trade with them :-/ Has anyone else encountered a similar issue or did my game just have a bout of cranial flatulence?

I have seen my caravan ambushed by goblins (killing the ambush) and then retreat... No trade this season. I guess this kind of behaviour should go in the main page MathFox 17:43, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
It seems that when you request a large amount of heavy (literally) goods, the wagon (which actually counts as a creature that hauls items) might become encumbered and move very slowly. It might even be unable to reach the trade depot before the merchants leave, especially if the map forces it to move along a long path between trees. I might wrong, this needs testing. Mateusz 16:19, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
(Moved from bug main article by --Albedo 18:11, 5 September 2009 (UTC))
If the wagon is a creature can it get injured? If it were injured it might move slowly. --Bombcar 05:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I had some dwarven traders arrive and their wagons got stuck on a mountain slope. I tried digging them out but they were moving sooooooooo slowly that I reloaded (I had saved just after the announcement of their arrival) and hurried to dig out that portion of the mountain before they hit it. The result, after they past that point, was that one wagon (only one) got stuck on another part of the slope and after being dug out moved at the same rate of slowness as I had seen previously. The rest of the wagons moved at normal speed (having never been stuck) to the depot. If it’s not a bug, then the game is simulating broken axils on wagons that get stuck (which I highly doubt, but would admittedly be very cool).
The dwarves that arrived first at the depot unpacked, but I had to wait about three months for the last wagon to finally make it and itself unpack before being able to trade. (I’m really surprised the first ones didn’t leave.) Once I did trade they all left at regular speed except the one wagon which took another several months for it to leave the map. In fact, it may have been longer because very shortly afterwards the elven caravan showed up and there are two full seasons between the dwarves and elves. (Version 40d16) --Frewfrux 21:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

requested items[edit]

Any time I request specific items... the next caravan turns up with exactly 1 of each item and nothing else.

So I get caravans turning up with a total of say 6 items.

Any suggestions?GarrieIrons

Not sure. Maybe it depends on the actual availability of said items? In one game where I played in a pretty barren area and I asked my dwarven traders to bring lots of wood and they brought like 60 something of it the next season. When asking for meat, they bring plenty of it as well. What are you trying to request though? I requested some flux stone once and only got 6 flux stone rocks.--Smjjames 12:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
example: various types of leather - I got 1 of some of the types.
I think maybe I didn't send out enough value last time and I may have just made the same mistake. I'm trying too hard to get "value".GarrieIrons 06:32, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I also suspect it has to do with the avialability at the mountainhome - i get huge loads of requested wood, meat and specific types of leather, but bit coal, lignite, pig iron, steel bars and charcoal always only come in small amounts like, 6, though still more than when i do not request them (zero :( ) --Höhlenschreck 20:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
It is of course also limited by the total capacity of the caravan. In the first two years its easy to "push out" all the crap they normally bring with requests. Later they will bring everything, and more of, what you request, but still not necessarily "much".. --Birthright 15:23, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Merchant turned friendly[edit]

Bug or feature? A macedwarf that came with the caravan lagged a bit behind when leaving and stopped 2 tiles from the border. When i checked with 'u' he had turned friendly. Now he's standing there guarding.. --Höhlenschreck 20:16, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

This happens whenever the merchants have all left and soldiers are left over. He will leave eventually. --Birthright 15:19, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Forbidden Items?[edit]

I've never had green glass items refused by Elves, on my current or any other map. My main export to everyone is green glass goblets on any map that supports cheap glass. I don't need wood for them but then, I didn't think the trading system(or the elves, for that matter) was sophisticated enough to tell. --Corona688 19:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

It seems that the Elves only refuse items that must have been made from wood, not ones that might have had wood involved. --Bombcar 05:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Error[edit]

I just had my first time ever true crash of DF - right on arrival of human caravan i got a message smth like "fatal error: nemesis failed to load unit". What does this mean and how do i find out if this is a known bug and where do i report it if not? --Confused 12:27, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, google was my friend. For some odd reason all the files accompanying world.sav were gone, that causes this error. --Confused 16:09, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
C - you're on the forums - you haven't ever heard of this? See Nemesis Errour--Albedo 18:51, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Self-Deconstructing Wagon?[edit]

I had a human caravan enter my map, and right where they entered was a group of bonobos. I was accustomed to the caravans plowing right through animals with no consequences, but this time, the wagon exploded as it touched the bonobo. The wagon was nowhere to be seen afterward, just all the trade goods it was carrying (in addition to one kapok log, which I suspect the wagon was built from). The rest of the caravan promptly ran away. The only thing I had built there was a rock block road. Has anyone else had anything like this happen, and if so, under what circumstances? --King of the Internet 00:35, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

That happens when a wagon is killed, all of the goods fly out, the Bonobo probably attacked it, and the rest of the traders always run away if a caravan is destroyed.--CrazyMcfobo 01:42, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
I had this happen to me too. A caravan arrive just as a bunch of Orcs did. I wasn't watching, but they must have toasted one wagon and the caravan fled off the map. It was frustrating for two reasons. First, being on the very edge of the map, the clean up was terrible, and second, all the items dropped were marked as stolen.Kwieland 15:54, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
So should it be noted on the page that normally-passive animals can attack the caravan, sending everyone back home? --King of the Internet 21:22, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Indeed, I had a similar problem happen to me. My game paused and zoomed towards a goblin snatcher, but I couldn't find the little guy. A few frames later, he was standing in the middle of the former wagon as the horses ran off, leaving the trade goods behind for me to snag. --Alkyon 19:35, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
Oddly enough, I've had this happen when there were no enemies, or any thief or attacking creatures on the map, in fact, wild animals at all being very scarce. The way I put it is that the caravan vaporized on its way out.--Aescula 07:41, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

D hotkey removed in .40d?[edit]

I tried to see which paths the caravan could take using D: nothing came up, and it's not on the hotkey menu.

Edit: Nevermind, it's back. Don't know where it went. @_@

You need a trade depot so you can use the command. As soon as you'll order to build a trade depot, you can use it. It'll be all red, until the trade depot is constructed. --Karl 12:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Offering to the Elves[edit]

In an attempt to piss off the Elves, I offered them a piece of raw clear glass and they happily accepted it. Last I checked, they dislike clear glass because of the pearlash used in its construction. Attempting to trade them tower-cap logs, however, was successful in getting them angry, as was simply seizing their 30 bins of cloth. --Quietust 00:11, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Just now, I attempted to offer them a tower-cap log and they were annoyed as a result. Exactly why they accepted a piece of raw clear glass last time is beyond me... --Quietust 00:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Raw clear glass is a gem, this may be why the accepted it. --Bombcar 05:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
...as stated, a gem made using pearlash (which can only be made by burning wood into ashes). --Quietust 06:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Exactly; there may be a bug in that gems don't track their component parts; it would have to be tested. --Bombcar 07:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Weird Bug[edit]

For some reason goblets won`t show up in the trade screen. I have some 200 very close to the Depot but they won´t show. I tried forbidding/claiming them to no avail, i aslo tried to make a goblet dump in the depot but that didn´t work either. Anyone else had this happen?

Do any of your nobles like goblets? One of them may have forbidden goblets from being exported. See Trading#Move Goods to/from Depot and try m in the item selection screen. --HebaruSan 13:35, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
They may also have forbidden the export of the material the goblets were made of. --Bombcar 05:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Look at the details on the items to see if any of your dwarves own the items. Those won't show up. --Aescula 03:05, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Constructed Ramps[edit]

It seems that wagons cannot pass over constructed ramps. Could someone add that to the page? 76.184.150.59 16:47, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

They can definitely travel along constructed ramps. Oddly, they can even travel along constructed ramps that aren't braced by walls on the proper side. --Quietust 20:01, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
One of my fortresses has its entrance outdoors, only accessible by constructed ramps. Wagons use them all the time. I also tried building a ramp in the middle of the wagon path in another fortress (not that such a ramp could ever be useful) and it still shows as accessible. Are you sure you're using ramps correctly? (They have to be next to natural or constructed walls, not just floors on the next level.) --LaVacaMorada 20:24, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


No Dwarven Caravans?[edit]

I have noticed that if you don't have any elves or human civs near that you don't get any caravans from them, but does the same apply to dwarven civs? My fortress so far has had no contact with any race, including dwarven caravans, after 2 years. This is a two fold problem, because I don't get caravans or immigrants because no caravan ever reports my now crazy wealth. Is this normal or a bug? 194.74.22.170 22:13, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

You should always get a Dwarven caravan. Were there any reports about migrants being too scared? Is the Depot accessible? --Bombcar 05:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Maybe not on an island. If your fortress exists on a totally water-locked plot, there might not be a way for them to get to you. Curious how you got there, though, eh?--Admiral Urist 06:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Why not just go underground?[edit]

This probably isn't an original idea, but I didn't see it listed, so I figured I'd post it here. Crowded maps, especially in the jungle areas, where trees will grow back and there's all sorts of nasty things waiting to eat an untended mason/woodcutter, why not just dig a wide road underground to the edge of the map, put some ramps up to the top level and then clear the caravan arrival space? An underground road means less chance of wild beasties attacking the caravan, and probably takes less time since, if you're like me, you have more miners than woodcutters. Plus it seems like miners are more attentive to their work than cutters. Goblins might make use of it, but it's fairly easy to guard/trap, since it's only, say, five or six tiles across. It worked for the Dorfs of Dragon Age, so why not for DF dorfs?

It does work, and is great. On really evil or dangerous maps, I will make an underground tunnel three tiles wide all the way to the edge of the map, and post walls such that the caravan must come down my tunnel. Works great, but not often useful. --Bombcar 06:30, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Craft Bins Disappearing[edit]

Recently, an elven caravan rolled on up to my fortress and, when unloading their oodles of wood and cloth in the 'ol depot, I casually sent my trader in to conduct his business. To my surprise, I failed to spot "Crafts" in the Move Goods menu. At first I thought that my fatigue was playing tricks on me but upon closer inspection the category was simply gone. I selected 'sorting by distance', since the mound of craft bins is only a step or two away from the depot itself, but no Finished Good bins appeared. This is the first time this has happened to me. Pondering on it a bit I traced the problem to a mandate made by one of the nobles, banning export of crowns. Crowns are indeed a craft, but does that mean that none of the other crafts are exportable, to boot? Or is it simply that if a bin has a crown in it it's considered null in the Move Goods menu? Some insight appreciated. --Bronzebeard 12:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Your suspicion is correct - if a particular good is under an export ban, all bins containing any of that item will be excluded from your trade list. In order to actually see them and bring them to the depot, you'll need to turn off mandate culling. --Quietust 17:34, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


Need info on how much needs to be exported to get the human caravans attention[edit]

Yea I added that bit about the human caravan bieng triggered by exports, but honestly, I don't actually know how much. I just know and suspected, that you need some amount of exports to get their attention. So, if anybody knows the answer..... --Smjjames 16:58, 4 January 2010 (UTC)


Wagons can fly?[edit]

I decided to fit my fortress with a trade depot that was suspended over a 7x7 pipe, that leads all the way to the bottom level of the map. I was pretty disappointed, then, when I found that the Wagon continued to mill about in mid air after the merchants had all fallen to their deaths =\ The merchant guards are lying in about 20 pieces in the recesses of my fortress, but now the wagon is hovering in "open space", and I've built floors around it but can't build beneath it to put a new depot there. Am I going to have to build a catapult and knock it out of the air or something? =\

Value of Caravan Guards?[edit]

So each caravan calculates the total value of the items it carries when determining if and how much of a profit they make when leaving, right? Do the items carried by caravan guards factor into this? For instance, if an ambush comes along and wipes out half the guard, am I going to have to be extra generous to the merchants to keep them coming with more goods next year? --Loyal 20:28, 11 January 2010 (EST)

names cut off[edit]

how do i tell what i am trading for in the trading screen? te things on the left often have their names cut off co i cant see what type of item i am trading for.

use the [v] key (view good) command to examine it in detail. MathFox 15:01, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
An alterntate to this, which doesn't work in the trading screen, but works in k and t displays is pressing Tab until the dialog portion is 2 sections wide. Just as an additional hint. --Aescula 02:56, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Faster than a speeding bullet wagon?[edit]

One of the wagons of my most recent dwarven caravan seems to be powered by rockets of some sort. The thing managed to zoom onto my screen, travel the hundred or so tiles of my entrance, down some ramps and arrive at the depot before the unbelievably agile woodcutter it passed could go more than a dozen tiles. It was the only wagon to do that, and the rest arrived several minutes later. Has anyone else seen something like this?

I can second this, though it happened to one of my sister's fortresses and not mine. I believe she even got a video of Superwagon leaving...