Editing 40d Talk:Ambush

Yesterday, I had an ambush. My woodcutter was ambushed by a group of one goblin bowman and five swordsmen. They were invisible, until attacked him. I had never seen anything like this until 38a. Think, it's something new, should we add the article? What do you think?--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:23, 6 February 2008 (EST)

: yes definitely.  I have been ambushed 3 times already in one year.  These attacks seem to coincide with trading caravans. --[[User:Kingzilla|Kingzilla]] 23:28, 6 February 2008 (EST)
::Is this really new? I started with 38a, but from reading i never expected anything else than thieves and ambushes with every caravan.--[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 23:17, 29 February 2008 (EST)
:::38a was the first time that caravans caused direct attacks. Previously the only worry was theives which could be easily defeated by recruits.--[[User:Kingzilla|Kingzilla]] 14:07, 10 March 2008 (EDT)
==Ambush messages==
In my experience with last version (38a) it showed 'Ambush, curse them' on kobold thieves, and 'Amush!' on beforementioned goblins. This surely needs verification--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 01:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)

:I have:<br>
:38a<br>
:Kobold thieves (2): An ambush! curse them!
:Goblins:  An ambush! curse them!

:38c 
:Kobold thieves (2): Thief! protect the hoard from skulking filth! (the different message may be caused by increased wealth)

:Goblins: An ambush! curse them!

:You can read back the whole announcements log (page up key) if you have the patience ;) --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 23:17, 29 February 2008 (EST)

Toady stated that the "Ambush!" message appearing for kobold thieves was a bug, and it has now been fixed. [[User:Furiousfish|Furiousfish]] 21:26, 6 March 2008 (EST)

== Enemy squad supposedly fleeing after the commander's death ==

Well, in my case he got caged, does that count? The squad of the 5 remaining goblin bowmen, however did not retreat, and continued to advance until torn apart by dogs. Only 1, last(after the other 4 died) goblin started retreating. That was 38a. --[[User:Digger|Digger]] 05:07, 1 March 2008 (EST)

:I just had my marksdwarves pump a goblin leader full of timber, and his squadmates just charged. --[[User:Shadow archmagi|Shadow archmagi]] 08:15, 1 March 2008 (EST)

::Alright I'm killing that part then. It's obviously wrong now. --[[User:Digger|Digger]] 09:44, 1 March 2008 (EST)

:::yep, just had an ambush too: leader dead, 1 unconscious, rest dead, and the last bowman was still charging.--[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 11:49, 1 March 2008 (EST)

== weapon trap did not cause warning ==

So i thought i had a squad of only 3 goblins, but it turned out a weapon trap had already finished of 2, but without giving the ambush-message. My cagetraps always gave the warning when they caught a goblin. Is this a known fact? how about other trap types? I think stone fall traps also triggered the warning before, but im not so sure anymore. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 23:16, 11 March 2008 (EDT)

== Suppositions on ambush spawning/spotting ==
So, it seems like the game generates (invisible) goblins to ambush you that actually move about the map, and are only revealed when spotted or when they attack.  They still interact normally with map features and objects that don't require awareness.

There are times when you'll spot them from a different z-level.  However, my supposition is that ambushers only ever spawn on a z-level from which they can access an open level of your fortress, even if there exist z-levels from which they could rain ranged death down upon your dwarves the game won't spawn them there if that level has no (path traceable) access to your fortress.  Can anyone confirm?  (Note that forbidden doors block path tracing, and if the only access to a given z-level is through a forbidden door...)  

My anecdotal evidence: Given traps on 2 z-levels, one of which I had locked (forbade) all doors access to, and to which i often had LoS by dwarves walking about on raised walkways, I only ever had goblin 'ambushers' walk into traps on the level that actually had an open entrance to the base.  (I was no longer actually being ambushed at that point, i just kept seeing corpses appear).

Similarly, I think siege forces only spawn on levels where they can path into your base, but i won't swear to that.

Possibly replace all instances of 'into your base' with 'to a dwarf'.  I am unable to differentiate these with the games i've played.

Unrelatedly, I've also had a wild elephant spot a goblin thief for me before - can wild animals spot ambushers?

--[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 05:50, 18 April 2008 (EDT)

:I can verify the part about "to a dwarf" as I've played several isolationist games where migrants are just left outside beyond a channel-trench or what not to fend for themselves, and often get ambushers and/or siegers that slaughter them and then have nothing else to do (until sappers are created by Toady anyways;) ) --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 16:10, 18 April 2008 (EDT)

Ambushes do NOT have to be an enemy force; it's anybody using the ambusher skill.  After abandoning a propserous fortress and reclaiming it, I had several dwarves still there.  Periodically I'd get the ambush message; it was almost always a hunter stalking game. --[[User:Propatriamori|Propatriamori]] 00:23, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

== Updated "Tips" ==
I tried to update the "tips" portion to be more relevant to actual ambushes, rather than to sieges.  Hopefully I didn't do too bad a job, but I'm sure it still needs plenty of work. --[[User:LegacyCWAL|LegacyCWAL]] 16:25, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

:Some of the tips are useful, but I have a couple of complaints. Firstly, War Dogs are not useless. You can chain them to important locations, and discover ambushes a lot sooner then normal. Secondly, moats do not work. If you have a moat, and there is no bridge, the invader AI will completely break, and they will just stand still for eternity. A one way entrance to your fortress filled with traps might be better, but I'm not sure if that's possible. Can anyone confirm if one way corridors are any way feasable? --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 04:25, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

::This is the sort of thing I meant by "still needs plenty of work"...namely clarifications in this case.
::With War Dogs, I didn't mean that they were useless per se, and I actually do mention using them to detect ambushes earlier than normal.  However, in order to ''fight'', they have to get to the fight in the first place.  But if you're trying to cover something over a large area (such as a road you're building or a caravan route that goes to the far end of the map), you start to need a LOT of packs of dogs in various places to make sure that one is close enough.  So while you can use them just fine for spotting and for their usual base-defense duties, you need an insane number of dogs to include them in your anti-ambush reaction plans as ''combatants''.
::As for moats, yes, cutting off an area entirely will break the pathfinding AI, but that goes for ''any'' situation a moat is used.  What I meant by cutting off an area with moats is to use moats to cut off all access routes ''except the ones that go through your fortress''.  There's still a path to the area, but the only path involves going through your Main Entrance, and thus your Main Entrance's defenses.  In turn, the enemy can't use the access route as a "back door" because the moat is in the way. --[[User:LegacyCWAL|LegacyCWAL]] 21:34, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
:::Oh right, I guess that would work fairly well. A tip for noobs; If a goblin raid appears, draft the whole population into the military and station them in the deepest part of your fortress. This work's pretty well as an alternative to watching all of your peasants die. By the way, is there a way of stopping all my fortress guards from running straight into the battlefield and getting their butts kicked? Or should I just not appoint a Sheriff at all. Does it matter? --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 03:43, 11 June 2008 (EDT)

::::It may be a coincidence, but keeping the "inhabited" area - and thus any guards - as far away from your main defenses as possible seems to be doing a good job of keeping my Fortress Guards away from the fray.  My living quarters, kitchens, workshops, etc. are seperated from my ''last'' line of defense by a fairly long corridor, and that is seperated from the very first line of defense by a LOT of trap-filled space to travel through.  So by the time the Guards would even notice that there's invaders to charge, the attackers have already spent five minutes being torn apart by Weapon Traps and Ballistae.  As for drafting everybody, that works as a last resort, but it would be best to try to design the fortress to keep that from becoming necessary in the first place (which, admittedly, is easier said than done). --[[User:LegacyCWAL|LegacyCWAL]] 19:17, 11 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::One-Way corridors would solve this problem, because the invader AI would remain unbroken. The trouble is trying to keep your people from foolishly running into the fray. The only thing I can think of is this kind of setup;

>[]**************....

Where the stars represent a retractable bridge, the box represents a pressure plate, and the arrow means the stairway out of the pit below. Perhaps that could work? --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 04:19, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

::::::If you could manage a one-way corridor, sure, it would keep your people from running into the fray.  It'd have to be a series of bridges/pressure plates/whatever though to try to make it work as one.  The way I've managed to keep my citizens out of the fray is when an enemy is detected, I use the "cancel everything outside and set "dwarves stay indoors" method of keeping everybody inside, but I have a skylight a ways behind my defenses.  So they still go running to pick up the stuff and don't stop until they hit sunlight, but the skylight means that they hit sunlight and turn around before they get to the battlefield.  It's something like this:
::::::(Fortress) - (Skylight) - (Corridor Of Doom) - (Outside) --[[User:LegacyCWAL|LegacyCWAL]] 16:54, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
@@ Line 5: / Line 5: @@
 :::38a was the first time that caravans caused direct attacks. Previously the only worry was theives which could be easily defeated by recruits.--[[User:Kingzilla|Kingzilla]] 14:07, 10 March 2008 (EDT)
 ==Ambush messages==
-In my experience with last version (38a) it showed 'Ambush, curse them' on kobold thieves, and 'Ambush!' on beforementioned goblins. This surely needs verification--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 01:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)
+In my experience with last version (38a) it showed 'Ambush, curse them' on kobold thieves, and 'Amush!' on beforementioned goblins. This surely needs verification--[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 01:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 :I have:<br>
@@ Line 20: / Line 20: @@
 Toady stated that the "Ambush!" message appearing for kobold thieves was a bug, and it has now been fixed. [[User:Furiousfish|Furiousfish]] 21:26, 6 March 2008 (EST)
-In a recent game (40d) I received "A dwarf has sprung from ambush!" when a dwarf-led squad of goblins ambushed one of my fisherdwarves.  [[User:dwarfsgalore|dwarfsgalore]] 12:12, 24 October 2008 (EST)
-I have received the messege "A human has sprung from ambush" with the same situatuation as above only with a human leader
 == Enemy squad supposedly fleeing after the commander's death ==
@@ Line 34: / Line 30: @@
 :::yep, just had an ambush too: leader dead, 1 unconscious, rest dead, and the last bowman was still charging.--[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 11:49, 1 March 2008 (EST)
-::::In my experience, the rest of the squad will flee but only if they have not sighted a target first.  Once the goblin (or whatever) chooses someone to attack it will no longer flee but if the leader is killed (by a trap for example) before any squad members have sighted your dwarves, then they will flee.--[[User:dwarfsgalore|dwarfsgalore]] 5:35 11 October 2008 (PST)
 == weapon trap did not cause warning ==
@@ Line 58: / Line 52: @@
 :I can verify the part about "to a dwarf" as I've played several isolationist games where migrants are just left outside beyond a channel-trench or what not to fend for themselves, and often get ambushers and/or siegers that slaughter them and then have nothing else to do (until sappers are created by Toady anyways;) ) --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 16:10, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
-Ambushes do NOT have to be an enemy force; it's anybody using the ambusher skill.  After abandoning a propserous fortress and reclaiming it, I had several dwarves still there.  Periodically I'd get the ambush message; it was almost always a hunter stalking game. --[[User:Propatriamori|Propatriamori]] 00:23, 22 April 2008 (EDT}
+Ambushes do NOT have to be an enemy force; it's anybody using the ambusher skill.  After abandoning a propserous fortress and reclaiming it, I had several dwarves still there.  Periodically I'd get the ambush message; it was almost always a hunter stalking game. --[[User:Propatriamori|Propatriamori]] 00:23, 22 April 2008 (EDT)
-I can say that wild animals do spot ambushers. I have had it happen twice to me on df_28_181_39f. [[User:Mission0|Mission0]] 09:01, 13 August 2008 (EDT)
-I think that which professions are in the ambush may be generated when it becomes visible, not when it enters the map. I had an ambush without any crossbow-goblins, savescummed to before it was discovered, and turned invaders off in init.txt. A bit later another ambush came, presumably because the goblins had already entered the map at the time of my last save. However, this squad did have a crossbow-goblin. --[[User:Calculator|Calculator]] 02:35, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
 == Updated "Tips" ==
@@ Line 82: / Line 72: @@
 Where the stars represent a retractable bridge, the box represents a pressure plate, and the arrow means the stairway out of the pit below. Perhaps that could work? --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 04:19, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
-::::::If you could manage a one-way corridor, sure, it would keep your people from running into the fray.  It'd have to be a series of bridges/pressure plates/whatever though to try to make it work as one.  The way I've managed to keep my citizens out of the fray is when an enemy is detected, I use the "cancel everything outside and set "dwarves stay indoors"" method of keeping everybody inside, but I have a skylight a ways behind my defenses.  So they still go running to pick up the stuff and don't stop until they hit sunlight, but the skylight means that they hit sunlight and turn around before they get to the battlefield.  It's something like this:
+::::::If you could manage a one-way corridor, sure, it would keep your people from running into the fray.  It'd have to be a series of bridges/pressure plates/whatever though to try to make it work as one.  The way I've managed to keep my citizens out of the fray is when an enemy is detected, I use the "cancel everything outside and set "dwarves stay indoors" method of keeping everybody inside, but I have a skylight a ways behind my defenses.  So they still go running to pick up the stuff and don't stop until they hit sunlight, but the skylight means that they hit sunlight and turn around before they get to the battlefield.  It's something like this:
 ::::::(Fortress) - (Skylight) - (Corridor Of Doom) - (Outside) --[[User:LegacyCWAL|LegacyCWAL]] 16:54, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
-== Kobold Ambush and Traps ==
-I have witnessed Kobold ambushers (4 swordsman and 1 spearmen) walk straight over weapon traps and stone-fall traps. I have also witnessed the ambushers *note, not the theives I watched it as it happened* picklock one of my locked doors to gain access into my fortress. I do not know if this applies to cage traps yet. Once this is confirmed by someone else it should be added to the page. [[User:Mission0|Mission0]] 09:21, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
-:Heck, I've seen a <em>human</em> ambusher walk through all my traps unscathed.  This was a goblin kidnappee I think, but why should he have trapavoid? --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 04:31, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
-== Elves leading Goblins? ==
-In the past few days (playing .40d), every Goblin ambush has included one Elf (presumably the leader). Is this a bug, or some freaky event caused by something within my game? --[[User:Nekojin|Nekojin]] 06:32, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
-:Goblin snatchers kidnap kids and they become part of goblin society. Maybe they harass elven and human kids too? --[[User:Someone-else|Someone-else]] 11:10, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
-::I have seen both humans and dwarves (!) leading squads of goblins.  With the dwarf-led squad I received a message "A Dwarf springs/has sprung from ambush!"--[[User:dwarfsgalore|dwarfsgalore]] 5:31, 10 October 2008 (PST)
-:::I can verify this, I have three visible ambush parties on my map, 2 are lead by dwarves (1 hammerer, one spear-dwarf) and the other one is lead by a Human Lasher.--[[User:Alkyon|Alkyon]] 16:16, 5 November 2008 (EST)
-::::I've had this happen to me, too.  Goblin-elves are some of the most butch yet most wimpy things I've ever seen.  Instead of turning their kills into armor or weapons, they turn them into...earrings.  And bracelets.  And crowns.  So much elf leather tackery on <em>one elf</em> that it took three days to haul it all to the stockpile...  (What?  No leather more supple than Elf.  And Elf Bone Crowns are made of awesome.) --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 10:29, 10 December 2008 (EST)
-:Thought game was broken when i saw the first dwarf ambush me :) . Had no babies snatched from me yet either. So could also be from an elven retreat conquered by goblins. This kind of thing will probably happen more often in the future. --[[User:Höhlenschreck|Höhlenschreck]] 22:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
-== Elves ambushing me ==
-I started a new fortress and after about a year i was actually ambushed by elves! I noticed that the wiki says that they dont ambush so i changed that. I was very surprised when it happened, and im not sure i could ahve fought them back if it wasnt for the fact that i had just reclaimed the fortress because of a fire imp accident --[[User:rock n rat|rock n rat]] 00:35, 19 September 2008 (EDT)
-:That was technically an elven seige.--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 21:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
-== Ambush by Giant Cave Spiders ==
-I just got ambushed by a [[giant cave spider]].  Just one, so far.  The message was unusual:  "An ambush!  Drive them out!"  But it remains to be see if it was just one or a <em>force</em> of them, and so whether this information belongs on the cave spider or ambush page. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 01:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
-:OK.  It was not a 'wandering' spider after all, if such things even exist, but a map feature as usual which just entered my fort because its web was only <em>fifteen squares from my entrance</em>, yikes!  So now we know the message a hidden giant cave spider makes when it finds a cage trap.  "Drive <em>them</em> out", that's interesting, seems to imply something more than solitary nearby spiders blundering in on on a lark... --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 17:13, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
-::''"An ambush!  Drive them out!"'' is just a diff version of the generic message received when any "hidden" unit is revealed when they attack or are bumped into by another unit. That attack can be on a dwarf, a pet, or a wild animal - (and apparently also when encountering a cage trap?)  Hidden gobbo's and elves also sometimes trigger this message. GCS's do not "spawn" nor wander onto the map after play starts - what you have is what you have. (Altho' they are invisible until revealed as above, and it's rare but possible you'll find more.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 22:37, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
-:::I also got the 'drive them out' message on reclaim, where one of the hostile madmen was still wandering around killing things.  Maybe the 'drive them out' message happens indoors, and 'curse them' outdoors? --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 17:02, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
-== Duration ==
-All right, so I've been ambushed. I've gotten all my dwarves inside my walls, except (ahem...) my miners who were doing a side job and have now been slaughtered by elite goblin crossbowmen or some such.
-How long are the ambushers going to hang around? Do I *have* to engage them or will they eventually wander off?
-This sorta belongs on the article if there is a definative answer.
-I'm guessing if they hang around and I keep all my drawbridges closed there won't be any successful caravan visits nor migrants coming my way![[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 10:13, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
-:Dunno if this is definative: they arrived early winter, left late winter after I had inflicted casualties mainly via stone & cage traps. Extending circuitous entrance now![[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 13:52, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
-::Since a single casuality can be enough to make them retreat, not definitive. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 12:18, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
-== Ambush Defences ==
-I have created a very viable defence system for both ambushes and sieges. I construct walls around my fortress in two manners, an inner and an outer ring.  I have taken a picture of the inner ring.
-<gallery>
-Image:Outpost-fence.jpg|Click on the picture for details.
-</gallery>
-== Cages ==
-As far as I'm aware animals in cages do not detect ambushes. The game treats them as furniture, except it seems for the purposes of giving birth. Can anyone confirm? We should perhaps remove it from the page until then. [[User:Innominate|Innominate]]
-:Seconded. AFAIK, the only things animals in cages can do is give birth and be selected for slaughter. Dogs in cages can't even be trained. Oh, and creatures in cages can also be stripped naked. --[[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 23:27, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
-::AFAIK, animals can only give birth in cages if they were already pregnant when you caged them. And they can grow up to become adults. But to come back to the topic, yes, caged animals don't detect anything. --[[User:Pugi|Pugi]] 00:04, 23 September 2009 (UTC)