Editing v0.31 Talk:Well guide

==Mud contaminant==
Complete misinformation on this page. Wells DO NOT filter out mud or any other actual contaminant. If they did, water from wells could not be used to irrigate. It would not create mud on stone floor tiles. Mud is what makes water stagnant, NOT coming from a murky pool. You NEED to filter out mud to stop the bad thought that comes from drinking stagnant water. Grates and bars filter out contaminants. I have verified this. You can too, well users, look at your stock screens. Tab to change modes. Look at all the water you own, even the stuff in buckets is stagnant if you are playing the latest version and you aren't cleaning with grates or bars. Unless you cleaned it first. There is one scenario I have not yet investigated, though: what happens if your well is above a grate, above water? This is not a bad idea in general, the grate will prevent anyone falling into the well from falling into the water. I haven't verified if passing through a grate this way even works, let alone filters contaminants.<small>&ndash; [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:71.222.187.247|71.222.187.247]]</small>
:Wrong.  Wells do filter out mud.  Since mud is created simply by having water on a tile, you can't have a well reaching water that isn't mud-contaminated.  Try it - build a cistern, pump some water in (so it's completely uncontaminated), look at the floor of the cistern.  "Stagnant" does come from murky pools specifically - the pool will give the water a '''grime''' coating, which in turn makes the water stagnant. --[[User:DeMatt|DeMatt]] 05:34, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
::Both wrong as hell. Wells don't give a crap about mud. Mud is an object spawned on a floor tile when water enters that tile. It's just an object, not a trait associated to the tile itself. Murky pools and brooks are special, unique floor tiles which control the maner in which water evaporates from above them. Mud doesn't form on these tiles. When a well is over a murky pool or brook tile, it will assume that the water is stagnant and filthy, and THAT is where the negative thought comes from. Furthermore, water doesn't carry mud with it, it just stays there on the tile it initially formed on. Thus, you can't really filter the mud, as the water doesn't get muddy. The only "filtration" you can do is with salt water. The well guide already explains how to desalinate water, both the easy and the hard way, though I've yet to do the step-by-step on the hard way... (Or any of the step-by-steps, really...) Anyways, thanks DeMatt for fixing that.--Kydo 06:31, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
:::Oh, crap, looking back, I need to do a minor update to this. Mud still isn't a contaminant, but contaminants have become much more complicated. I don't remember reading about that being implemented, but there it is! I guess I'll have to build even more experiments... Damn. The nature of contaminants is weird. Some will mix with water, while others just appear as small piles and don't actually seem to interact with water at all! --Kydo 07:03, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
:: I am telling you, I have taken water from a brook, through a well, and seen "stagnant water" listed in buckets. Perhaps I jumped to conclusions about the mud, but I have stagnant water in buckets. Okay, maybe they filled the buckets from a pool rather than the well, but until I put in a grate, ALL I had was stagnant water. Every single drop in every bucket was stagnant. After the grate, none of it was. Please do not jump to the conclusion that someone seeing something different than you must be mistaken, this game changes very quickly and new releases introduce new mechanics. At least have the decency to do some tests with the latest version before crying "Wrong!!" [[User:GhostDwemer|GhostDwemer]] 17:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
::: I am using the latest version. I just never read anything about any contaminants update at any point, and it never really came up in any of my fortresses, as my dwarves never get bloody, rarely bathe, and mud has no effect on wells. Thus, I didn't even think water contaminants existed until this came up! I'm sorry I was rather nasty to you. It was completely uncalled for. --Kydo 03:21, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
* I'm posting further discussion over at [[DF2010_Talk:Well]] to avoid duplication of arguments. --[[User:DeMatt|DeMatt]] 01:40, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

== Where's the guide? ==
Linked here from the [[Well]] main page, which says "see the (recommended) Well Guide" ...  I would like to read this guide :)  --[[User:FleshForge|FleshForge]] 11:50, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
:Yeah, this really should be updated. The 40d version of this page was kind of disorganized and vague at times anyways. I can clean it up a little to make sense for the new version of the game and post it here if nobody has any complaints about me doing so. --Kydo 15:20, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. That would be great.[[User:Decius|Decius]] 20:56, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
: Right, so, I've got what I've finished uploaded to my user page, if you want to look it over and tear it apart. It's not finished, as the step-by-step section is empty thus far. I will put more into it, but I want to use actual in-game screenshots as examples, to show that it all works. So that part may take a while. If you guys can help me on that, it'd be awesome. Oh, also, it is RIFE with unverified stuff. Like, I don't know if he fixed the "urist mcdorf fell down the well again" problem. I need to do a bunch of verification work. Which is part of what the working examples thing is about. --Kydo 03:50, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
:: Nobody's commenting. I'll just upload it in it's unfinished state and work on it as I find the inclination to. At the very least, it might set off an argument, which is better than nothing at all. Hopefully, having something actually on the page might prompt people other than myself to start making edits of their own, fixing my heapinng pile of mistakes. --Kydo 08:25, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
It might be useful to mention u-bends (see [[DF2010:Pressure]]). In older versions it was possible to lower the z-level of water with a series of u-bends, I suppose this still holds true in the current version. --[[Special:Contributions/92.224.74.71|92.224.74.71]] 15:18, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
: Yes, it is. That's actually exactly how gravity-fed aqueducts carry water to their subterranean reservoirs. But the original well guide didn't really talk much about the behavior of water, preferring to linking to the page on pressure. It assumes you have read both the well page and the pressure page, and gives a fair bit of warning of the danger of flooding. Actually, I found a glitch in u-pipe filling. I haven't figured out exactly what causes it, but it seems that if you try to u-pipe fill a chamber that's already full of water, both water sources try to push down, and regardless of how much water is in either water source, push down with equal force, and go nowhere. I think it has something to do with the door separating the two opening, leaving an empty space, which both sources flow into, initiating the direction of flow, and once it's full, the game thinks it's done and just stops flowing. I think. I need to experiment with it more, because it only happens sometimes. Also, thanks for fixing my stuff a bit. I forgot that not all aquefers are salty. Actually, each water source should have a link to it's own page, so that you can learn more about them individually... Actually, reading over the page on pressure, it looks like it could use a little cleanup too... I'll get to it eventually. --Kydo 16:12, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

== Mud doesn't dry? ==
"''First, you need to "irrigate" underground floors before you can actually farm on them. Instead of making a separate, elaborate irrigation system for just one use, (To my knowledge, mud doesn't dry) why not just drain it out of your well?''"- from Multitasking wells.

Actually when I started my last game there was already mud for farming underground, but I had forgotten seeds.(:/) And when I later checked there was not mud... -A4

:Really? Because I have never seen anything about mud evaporating. Nobody has ever been able to confirm it. The only confirmed method of removing mud, is to build something on it, like a floor, and then remove the construction. My current fortress has been running for about four (game) years, and the mud I made for irrigation at the beginning has yet to dry. --Kydo 16:19, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

==Danger of flooding?==
Really? All this hoopla over flooding, and no mention of diagonal pressure reduction? 

 ###X ###  
     ##0#
      ###
 
 X=floodgate
 #=tunnel
 0=where you put the well one level above.

It couldn't get any simpler. I have never once filled up a reservoir by bucket. Once you understand that a diagonal connection removes ALL pressure, flooding should never be a problem. You get the benefit of pressure, quick delivery of the water, without the risk of flooding. [[User:GhostDwemer|GhostDwemer]] 17:11, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

: You're right, diagona pressure gates can be handy. I can think of a more effctive design, though... A diagonal pressure gate only works riht under specific circumstances. If water has the ability to flow downward at any point after a diagonal pressure gate, it will be pressurized back to the gate's height. It also doesn't prevent water from flooding into the rest of the level it's on, which depending on where your well is located, can be a problem. If you depressurize water before it enters the well's reservoir, it will only fill the bottom level, which makes multi-level wells impossible. Ah, but if the fill pipe connects to the TOP edge of your reservoir, and fills diagonally, the game will depressurize the water as it enters the reservoir! Which means water will only ever be able to fill to the top edge! --Kydo 16:16, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

== Well-Tower ==
'' A well tower may indeed be cool.''
To what purpose would a well-tower serve, and why should it be listed in this guide? This seems impractical, by all means, and although some players may build them it seems more ornamental than anything else. --[[User:RadGH|RadGH]] 07:30, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Although it offers no real use it encourages newer users to be creative and try new and crazy things. The statement doesn't even announce that it would serve any purpose it only stated it would be "cool". [[User:Mystery|Mystery]] 07:05, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
@@ Line 6: / Line 6: @@
 :: I am telling you, I have taken water from a brook, through a well, and seen "stagnant water" listed in buckets. Perhaps I jumped to conclusions about the mud, but I have stagnant water in buckets. Okay, maybe they filled the buckets from a pool rather than the well, but until I put in a grate, ALL I had was stagnant water. Every single drop in every bucket was stagnant. After the grate, none of it was. Please do not jump to the conclusion that someone seeing something different than you must be mistaken, this game changes very quickly and new releases introduce new mechanics. At least have the decency to do some tests with the latest version before crying "Wrong!!" [[User:GhostDwemer|GhostDwemer]] 17:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
 ::: I am using the latest version. I just never read anything about any contaminants update at any point, and it never really came up in any of my fortresses, as my dwarves never get bloody, rarely bathe, and mud has no effect on wells. Thus, I didn't even think water contaminants existed until this came up! I'm sorry I was rather nasty to you. It was completely uncalled for. --Kydo 03:21, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
-* I'm posting further discussion over at [[v0.31_Talk:Well]] to avoid duplication of arguments. --[[User:DeMatt|DeMatt]] 01:40, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
+* I'm posting further discussion over at [[DF2010_Talk:Well]] to avoid duplication of arguments. --[[User:DeMatt|DeMatt]] 01:40, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 == Where's the guide? ==
@@ Line 14: / Line 14: @@
 : Right, so, I've got what I've finished uploaded to my user page, if you want to look it over and tear it apart. It's not finished, as the step-by-step section is empty thus far. I will put more into it, but I want to use actual in-game screenshots as examples, to show that it all works. So that part may take a while. If you guys can help me on that, it'd be awesome. Oh, also, it is RIFE with unverified stuff. Like, I don't know if he fixed the "urist mcdorf fell down the well again" problem. I need to do a bunch of verification work. Which is part of what the working examples thing is about. --Kydo 03:50, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 :: Nobody's commenting. I'll just upload it in it's unfinished state and work on it as I find the inclination to. At the very least, it might set off an argument, which is better than nothing at all. Hopefully, having something actually on the page might prompt people other than myself to start making edits of their own, fixing my heapinng pile of mistakes. --Kydo 08:25, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
-It might be useful to mention u-bends (see [[v0.31:Pressure]]). In older versions it was possible to lower the z-level of water with a series of u-bends, I suppose this still holds true in the current version. --[[Special:Contributions/92.224.74.71|92.224.74.71]] 15:18, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
+It might be useful to mention u-bends (see [[DF2010:Pressure]]). In older versions it was possible to lower the z-level of water with a series of u-bends, I suppose this still holds true in the current version. --[[Special:Contributions/92.224.74.71|92.224.74.71]] 15:18, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 : Yes, it is. That's actually exactly how gravity-fed aqueducts carry water to their subterranean reservoirs. But the original well guide didn't really talk much about the behavior of water, preferring to linking to the page on pressure. It assumes you have read both the well page and the pressure page, and gives a fair bit of warning of the danger of flooding. Actually, I found a glitch in u-pipe filling. I haven't figured out exactly what causes it, but it seems that if you try to u-pipe fill a chamber that's already full of water, both water sources try to push down, and regardless of how much water is in either water source, push down with equal force, and go nowhere. I think it has something to do with the door separating the two opening, leaving an empty space, which both sources flow into, initiating the direction of flow, and once it's full, the game thinks it's done and just stops flowing. I think. I need to experiment with it more, because it only happens sometimes. Also, thanks for fixing my stuff a bit. I forgot that not all aquefers are salty. Actually, each water source should have a link to it's own page, so that you can learn more about them individually... Actually, reading over the page on pressure, it looks like it could use a little cleanup too... I'll get to it eventually. --Kydo 16:12, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
@@ Line 44: / Line 44: @@
 Although it offers no real use it encourages newer users to be creative and try new and crazy things. The statement doesn't even announce that it would serve any purpose it only stated it would be "cool". [[User:Mystery|Mystery]] 07:05, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
-Uses for a well tower:
-. The experimental models used to make the information on this page were mostly enormous well towers of different styles.
-. You may use the water source in the high reservoir as a source for practically infinite water pressure for things such as world-flooding weapons.
-. If your base is really tall and you want a well at a higher level, with it's reservoir directly below the well opening, most likely due to poor planning.
-. It would be cool, because if you manage to build it without flooding your fortress, it's quite an accomplishment.
---Kydo 19:33, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
-== Well Safety ==
-While reading the guide, I thought of two useful safety features to prevent Dwarf splat, and splash.
-Hatches and Plates. Link a Hatch, built a level below the well to a pressure plate just before the well, with stairs leading around and back up to the level above. This means a dwarf working the well must stand on the plate opening the hatch. If it steps off the plate into the well the hatch closes and catches it before it can splat.
-Plates and Floodgates. A shallow reservoir, of no more than 3x3x3 won't last forever, but if combined with a pressure plate two levels below the well, and off-set one square, set to trigger 3/7 water and close flood gates, should keep the well from flooding up into the corridor.
-"<i>If you are draining water through an aqueduct, and you know there may be dangerous animals (Or even just unwanted regular animals) living in it, there is a way to stop them from wandering in. You can place [[Grate|wall grates]], [[Bar|upright bars]], or [[Fortification|fortifications]] in the aqueduct to act as filters. These allow water to pass through, but animals cannot. It has been observed that in very rare occasions, animal may be pushed through. If you're that concerned about it (Or have HORDES of angry crocodiles in your river) putting two filters in a row pretty much eliminates any chance of this happening.</i>" - disagreed: water can push animals through several grates, etc., and it is not so rare. For better security I recommend using pumps. --[[User:WwWraith|WwWraith]] 20:04, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
-: Just a few thoughts about monsters. Currently I use this setup for getting water into underground reservoir:
-<pre>
-. - brook
-# - solid stone
-= - water wheel
-* - gear
-%% - pump
-F - fortification
-_ - hole down to reservoir
-..=######
-..=**####
-..=#*####
-...%% F_#
-...######
-...######
-</pre>
-:Pump is activated only when I need some more water (lever linked to middle gear). Supposedly, that way I've got a guarantee that no one ever sneaks through - they have to <br>
-:1. catch me when I am pumping water.<br>
-:2. destroy the pump<br>
-:3. make it through fortification which is impossible since there's no more pump and water level is falling.<br>
-:Basically, all they can do is destroy the outside constructions and the only downside is that I won't be able to refill my water reservoir until I deal with the nasties.<br>
-:Probably, it would be even better to enclose the mechanisms with walls, roof, and floor grates, probably even aquatic building destroyers won't be able to do anything (they can't destroy grates and wheel from below, right?)
-::Perhaps if they can also fly?