Dwarf Fortress Wiki - User contributions [en]

Template:Bug/doc

2023-11-21T10:43:43Z

Vallode: Update bug tracker URL

Used for linking to bugs on the [https://dwarffortressbugtracker.com/ Bug Tracker]

See also [[:Category:References to fixed bugs]]

==Usage==

The first parameter is the number of the bug on the bug tracker. Leading 0's aren't necessary.
<pre>{{bug|296}}</pre>
{{bug|296|cat=nocat}}

An optional parameter is a link to the workaround. This should be used temporarily, while the bug is '''not''' fixed. If the bug is fixed, remove it from the article. ([[Dwarf fortress wiki:Community Portal#T|Rule T]])

Note that this parameter is '''named'''. You need to use <code><nowiki>workaround=http://...</nowiki></code>, not just the link as the second parameter.
<pre>{{bug|6290|workaround=http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122782.0}}</pre>
{{bug|6290|workaround=http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122782.0|cat=nocat}}

If the workaround is listed in the comments of the bug report, use <pre>{{bug|number|workaround=comments}}</pre>

{{bug|1|workaround=comments|cat=nocat}}

===Linking to an article's "bugs" section===

Some articles have a separate section for bugs. Using this template without a bug number will link to that section. For example, <pre>{{bug}}</pre> produces this: {{bug|cat=nocat}}

If the section title containing bugs is something other than "Bugs", specify this in the <code>section</code> parameter. <pre>{{bug|section=Usage}}</pre> produces this: {{bug|section=Usage|cat=nocat}} (this should jump to the Usage section of this documentation, which does not actually contain bugs).

==Bugs==
This is a sample section, which would contain bugs in a real article. It is here to serve as an example for linking to the bugs section.

<includeonly>[[Category:Inline formatting templates]]</includeonly>
<includeonly>[[Category:Link processing templates]]</includeonly>
<noinclude>[[Category:Template Documentation]]</noinclude>

Template:Bug

2023-11-21T10:43:19Z

Vallode: Update bug tracker URL

{{#ifeq:{{{link|no}}}|no|{{#if:{{{1|}}}|[[#{{#var:bugsection|Bugs}}|Bug]]:[https://dwarffortressbugtracker.com/view.php?id={{{1}}} {{{1}}}] {{#switch:{{{workaround|none}}}|none=|comment|comments=(Workaround in comments)|#default=([{{{workaround}}} Workaround])}}|[[#{{#var:bugsection|Bugs}}|Bug]]}}|{{#if:{{{1|}}}|[https://dwarffortressbugtracker.com/view.php?id={{{1}}} {{{title|{{{2|Bug {{{1}}}}}}}}}]|No bug ID provided}}}}<includeonly>{{#ifeq:{{{cat|}}}|nocat||{{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|{{TALKSPACE}}||{{Category|Bugs}}}}{{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|{{DF:Current}}|{{#ifeq:{{{link|no}}}|no|{{bug/check-fixed|{{{1}}}}}}}}}}}</includeonly><noinclude>{{documentation}}</noinclude>

Stockpile design

2023-01-22T19:18:49Z

Vallode: Remove outdated LGTM

{{Quality|Unrated}}
{{av}}
[[Image:DFflowchart.png|thumb|200px|'''Production flowchart for most workshops'''. Not all items are represented! ''(Click to enlarge)'']]

[[Stockpile]]s can be created almost anywhere, can have almost any size, and have many different options. Choosing where to place them, how big to make them, and how to configure their settings constitutes the art of '''stockpile design'''. Efficient stockpile design is one of the most critical aspects of overall fortress efficiency. Stockpile and workflow design is, perhaps, the third most important thing you need to do in your fortress, after keeping dwarves fed and protected. A fortress with poor stockpile layouts will grind to an [[FPS]] death much faster than one designed with efficiency in mind.

== Avoiding hauling-caused job cancellations ==

One of the major problems you will face in a fortress with inefficient stockpile design is the endless "spam" of job cancellations due to items being hauled. While an item is being hauled, ''or is inside a container which is tasked for hauling'', it can't be used. If a hauling job takes a month, then all the items involved in that job are unavailable for an entire month.

The solution to this issue is to minimize the amount of time a container full of items spends being hauled, either by avoiding the use of containers altogether, or by minimizing the distance a container will travel.

The classic example of this problem is the seed stockpile. Your planters need seeds to sow crops in farm plots. Seeds are stored in food stockpiles, in [[bag]]s; the bags in turn will be stored in [[barrel]]s or large pots if you allow it, and if enough empty barrels/pots are available. If you simply create a food stockpile next to the farm, and disable everything except seeds, the default settings will allow the use of barrels to store the seed bags. This will lead to job cancellations. Let's take a closer look at why this happens.

In the "stockpile at rest" (when no new seeds have been generated in a long time), we will most likely have 1 or 2 barrels full of seed bags, plus one empty barrel. (All barrel- and bin-using stockpiles try to keep one empty container for future use.) The barrels can hold a huge number of seed bags, so there will be a small number of very full barrels.

Now, suppose some dwarf eats a [[plump helmet]] and generates a plump helmet spawn. The stockpile will eventually realize this has occurred, and will generate a job to acquire the seed. If there is already a bag of plump helmet spawn in the stockpile, then the job will be "Store Item in Bag". Some dwarf will be assigned to take the bag of plump helmet spawn ''out'' of the stockpile, bring it to the dining room where the seed is, and put the seed into the bag. However, as soon as this job has been '''created''', the bag is marked as being part of the hauling job. All the seeds in it are now unavailable for use -- and the dwarf hasn't even picked it up yet!

But it gets worse. Once the bag has been taken to the dining room and has acquired one (or possibly several) new seeds, the stockpile will generate another job to bring the bag back. Since there is a non-full barrel already in the stockpile, the job will be "Store Item in Barrel". Some dwarf will be assigned to take the barrel ''out'' of the stockpile, drag it to the dining room where the bag is, and put the bag into the barrel. As soon as this job is created, the '''whole barrel full of seed bags''' (which may be every seed in the entire fortress) is marked for hauling and is unavailable for any other purpose, including planting crops. The planter can't use any of those seeds until the barrel has been dragged out, and then finally dragged back to the original stockpile. And if any new seeds have been generated while that's going on, then the cycle never ends.

There are a few designs that try to mitigate this problem. The simplest design is to '''disallow barrels''' in the seed stockpile. Seeds will continue to be stored in bags (you cannot stop this by any means, if empty, unforbidden bags exist). You will continue to get some planting job cancellations when a bag is removed to pick up new seeds, but it is nowhere near as bad as the situation you get with barrels.

== Multiple stockpile designs ==

=== Double stockpile ===

Another design that works well for seeds uses two stockpiles. The first stockpile is set to "take from anywhere", and disallows barrels. This stockpile is typically quite small, because it only holds items temporarily. The second stockpile is set to "take from links only", and is linked to take from the first stockpile (and the two stockpiles are extremely close together). This second stockpile may permit barrels. This design gives you the increased storage capacity of the stockpile with containers (for long term storage), while minimizing the amount of the time the barrels spend out of their stockpile. Rather than being dragged all the way from the seed stockpile to the dining room (or still, or farmer's workshop, etc.) the barrel only has to move a few tiles to the neighboring stockpile.

Neither of these designs will completely eliminate job cancellations, but they reduce the spam (and the time a planter spends waiting for seeds) immensely.

The double-stockpile design is also particularly good for heavy items, like armor. An armor stockpile that accepts items from anywhere and permits bins will cause dwarves to drag bins full of metal armor all the way down to the forges and back. If you're using magma forges a hundred levels down, along corridors that have to twist around caverns, such a trip can take literally weeks. The armor in that bin is unavailable for that entire time. But if you make a small "feeder" stockpile with no bins that takes from anywhere, dwarves will simply carry pieces of armor one at a time from the forge to the feeder stockpile. A larger long-term storage stockpile has bins, takes from links only, and takes from the nearby feeder stockpile. The heavy bins will only have to be moved a few tiles, and the armor in them is unavailable for a much shorter time.

=== Single source distribution ===

This design works well for inputs that come from a single location (e.g. plants from [[farming|farm plots]]), and are used in many other locations. Rather than simply putting a plant stockpile by each workshop that uses plants (which would mean a great deal of hauling barrels from those workshops to the farm plots to pick up new plants), place one "source" plant stockpile by the farms which disallows barrels, and takes from anywhere. All the farm crops will go there first (directly, because no barrels are involved).

Now, place a plant stockpile by each workshop that uses plants ([[still]], [[farmer's workshop]], etc.), set it to take from links only, and link it to take from the "source" stockpile. Ideally, each of these workshop-feeding stockpiles will take only an appropriately chosen subset of the plants (the still takes only brewable plants, while the farmer's workshop for the textile industry only takes plants that can be processed into [[thread]], and so on). You may choose whether to allow barrels on a case by case basis, depending on how many of each plant you expect to have at once, how time-critical their processing is, etc.

If you are so inclined, you can use a [[Exploit#The_Minecart_Stop|quantum stockpile]] as the "source". This allows an infinite amount of storage in a tiny space. In the specific case of plants, this means your harvest ''always'' has somewhere to go, and will never wilt on the ground (unless your haulers are all busy elsewhere).

== Workshop layout for efficient hauling ==

It is virtually impossible to discuss stockpile design without simultaneously addressing workshop (or workflow) design. They are two sides of the same coin.

Most workshops take some items as ''input'' and produce other items as ''output''. Consider an entire chain of workshops and products from raw materials to finished products. The closer each workshop's inputs are, the faster your dwarves can process them. When the outputs are in turn used as inputs in another workshop, it makes sense to keep those two workshops close together, to minimize the amount of distance each intermediate product has to move. In many cases, you may not even ''need'' a stockpile for the intermediate products; just let them sit in the first workshop until the second workshop is ready for them. (This depends on the workshop and the products.)

It's also worth mentioning that heavily congested corridors are extremely inefficient. Your most heavily traveled tunnels should be at ''least'' two tiles wide, and three tiles is better. When dwarves have to squeeze past each other, one of them has to stop moving to let the other go by. Worse, dwarves who are ''about'' to collide will run a path-finding algorithm (which takes computer time), and if an alternative route is available, they'll go out of their way - possibly a ''long'' way out of their way - rather than simply stop and let the other dwarf squeeze by. Try to avoid this.

=== Stockpile placement ===

One strategy is to place the feeder stockpile immediately around the workshop. This works well for single workshops with just one input (like a [[mason's workshop|mason's]] or [[mechanic's workshop]]).

SSSSS S feeder stockpile
SWWWS W workshop
SWWWS
SWWWS
SSSSS

Another strategy is to put the workshop's stockpile above or below it. This keeps the stockpiles close to the workshops, and lets the workshops expand, even adding workshops on additional Z-levels as necessary. It works particularly well with multiple similar workshops working off the same stockpile.

adjacent z-level
WWW WWW SSSSSSS
WWW<WWW SSS>SSS
WWW WWW SSSSSSS

== Specific industry designs ==

=== Farm-centric ===

[[Farming|Farms]] feed a wide array of workshops. Plants from farms may directly feed the [[kitchen]], [[still]], [[millstone]] (or [[quern]]) and [[farmer's workshop]]. The mill and farmer's workshop feed the [[loom]] and [[dyer]] which feed the [[clothier]]. Farms are in turn supplied seeds from the still, mill, farmer's workshop and dining rooms, completing the cycle of plant life.

As such, it's a good idea to design all (or at least, many) of these workshops and their [[stockpile]]s around each other. Above-ground farms can only be built in certain places, and underground farms are much ''easier'' to build in soil layers, so in many cases this dictates the location and layout.

=== Butcher & Tanning ===

Because tanners are supplied directly from a butcher it's best to put them right next to each other. Designate a refuse stockpile taking Corpses for the butcher. Let the hides sit in the [[butcher's shop]], and the tanner will take them directly to the [[tanner's shop]] with no hauling jobs required.

Consider placing a [[stockpile#Refuse|refuse stockpile]] somewhere behind an airlock (to keep out the [[miasma]]), to take the cartilage and other useless by-products.

* Note: When near a [[necromancer|necromancer tower]], butcher shops and refuse piles where corpses are collected should be kept within the fortress out of line of sight of any necromancer. When in an evil [[biome]] which causes the dead to reanimate, corpses should be disposed of promptly, preferably in magma.

=== Kitchen ===

A food stockpile accepting meat/fish, raw edible [[crop|plants]]*†, [[cheese]], [[Quarry bush|leaves]], cookable [[millstone|milled]] plants (everything but the [[dye|dyes]]), [[fat]]†, cookable [[extract|extracts]] ([[Dwarven syrup]] and all the [[milk|milks]]†). If you cook [[Alcohol|booze]], include that. If you want to reserve some edible plants for [[still|brewing]], leave them out. Allow the maximum barrels. Remember to turn off prepared food.
:''(* [[plump helmet]], [[muck root]], [[bloated tuber]], [[prickle berry]], [[strawberry]], [[rat weed]], [[fisher berry]] and [[sun berry]])'' 
:''(† These items generally have better uses than cooking: [[milk]] for [[cheese]], [[fat]] for [[tallow]] which is used in [[soap]] and [[crop|plants]] for brewing as cooking will not return seeds. See [[kitchen]] for more information.)''

=== Brewing ===

A food stockpile accepting brewable [[plant|plants]]. Some of these have other uses, like pig tail for making thread, so you might want to disallow them if you plan on using them for something else. Remember to turn off prepared food.

Also include a barrel stockpile near your [[still]] to ensure a steady supply of empty barrels.

== Use of wheelbarrows ==

[[Wheelbarrow]]s are tremendously useful tools, when properly applied. They allow a dwarf to move a single item at the dwarf's normal walking speed, ''regardless of the item's weight''. But they have trade-offs, so they should not be used in every stockpile.

A major trade-off is that the dwarf has to walk to the stockpile first to fetch the wheelbarrow, then take the wheelbarrow to the item, and finally back to the stockpile. So, each hauling job may involve a much greater travel distance, and even though all the walking done at full speed, the total time spent may actually increase if you aren't careful.

Wheelbarrows are used by default in stone stockpiles, and for good reason -- stones are ''heavy''! Dwarves, especially [[Attribute#Strength|weak]] ones, will move extremely slowly when hauling a stone without a wheelbarrow or [[minecart]]. It is strongly recommend that if you have any workshops which process stones, you use a feeder stockpile near them (linked to give to the workshop, so the mason doesn't carry a stone all the way from her bedroom!), and use wheelbarrows in that stockpile. This way, the stone is only ever carried by hand for a few tiles, from the stockpile to the workshop, by the mason/mechanic/craftsdwarf doing the work.

Furniture stockpiles are another good use of wheelbarrows, as many pieces of furniture are extremely heavy (a granite statue weighs 156Γ, and a gold statue weighs 1159Γ, despite being made out of 3 gold bars that weigh 115Γ apiece -- dwarves aren't great at math).

By contrast, wheelbarrows are not a great choice for a wood stockpile. Most logs of wood weigh about 30Γ, which will not slow a dwarf of average strength. Forcing the use of wheelbarrows would just increase the time spent per log, as well as reducing the number of simultaneous log hauling jobs. (Weak or very weak dwarves ''will'' be slowed when hauling typical logs; you may wish to disable wood hauling on these dwarves. Ironically, very weak dwarves make great stone haulers, because they can push a wheelbarrow perfectly well.)

== See Also ==
*[[Minecart]]
*[[Exploit#Quantum_stockpiles|Quantum stockpiles]]

{{Category|Design}}
{{Category|Guides}}
{{Category|Stockpiles}}
[[ru:Stockpile design]]

Stockpile design

2023-01-22T19:18:24Z

Vallode: Remove mentions of old wheelbarrow restrictions

{{migrated article}}
{{Quality|Unrated}}
{{av}}
[[Image:DFflowchart.png|thumb|200px|'''Production flowchart for most workshops'''. Not all items are represented! ''(Click to enlarge)'']]

[[Stockpile]]s can be created almost anywhere, can have almost any size, and have many different options. Choosing where to place them, how big to make them, and how to configure their settings constitutes the art of '''stockpile design'''. Efficient stockpile design is one of the most critical aspects of overall fortress efficiency. Stockpile and workflow design is, perhaps, the third most important thing you need to do in your fortress, after keeping dwarves fed and protected. A fortress with poor stockpile layouts will grind to an [[FPS]] death much faster than one designed with efficiency in mind.

== Avoiding hauling-caused job cancellations ==

One of the major problems you will face in a fortress with inefficient stockpile design is the endless "spam" of job cancellations due to items being hauled. While an item is being hauled, ''or is inside a container which is tasked for hauling'', it can't be used. If a hauling job takes a month, then all the items involved in that job are unavailable for an entire month.

The solution to this issue is to minimize the amount of time a container full of items spends being hauled, either by avoiding the use of containers altogether, or by minimizing the distance a container will travel.

The classic example of this problem is the seed stockpile. Your planters need seeds to sow crops in farm plots. Seeds are stored in food stockpiles, in [[bag]]s; the bags in turn will be stored in [[barrel]]s or large pots if you allow it, and if enough empty barrels/pots are available. If you simply create a food stockpile next to the farm, and disable everything except seeds, the default settings will allow the use of barrels to store the seed bags. This will lead to job cancellations. Let's take a closer look at why this happens.

In the "stockpile at rest" (when no new seeds have been generated in a long time), we will most likely have 1 or 2 barrels full of seed bags, plus one empty barrel. (All barrel- and bin-using stockpiles try to keep one empty container for future use.) The barrels can hold a huge number of seed bags, so there will be a small number of very full barrels.

Now, suppose some dwarf eats a [[plump helmet]] and generates a plump helmet spawn. The stockpile will eventually realize this has occurred, and will generate a job to acquire the seed. If there is already a bag of plump helmet spawn in the stockpile, then the job will be "Store Item in Bag". Some dwarf will be assigned to take the bag of plump helmet spawn ''out'' of the stockpile, bring it to the dining room where the seed is, and put the seed into the bag. However, as soon as this job has been '''created''', the bag is marked as being part of the hauling job. All the seeds in it are now unavailable for use -- and the dwarf hasn't even picked it up yet!

But it gets worse. Once the bag has been taken to the dining room and has acquired one (or possibly several) new seeds, the stockpile will generate another job to bring the bag back. Since there is a non-full barrel already in the stockpile, the job will be "Store Item in Barrel". Some dwarf will be assigned to take the barrel ''out'' of the stockpile, drag it to the dining room where the bag is, and put the bag into the barrel. As soon as this job is created, the '''whole barrel full of seed bags''' (which may be every seed in the entire fortress) is marked for hauling and is unavailable for any other purpose, including planting crops. The planter can't use any of those seeds until the barrel has been dragged out, and then finally dragged back to the original stockpile. And if any new seeds have been generated while that's going on, then the cycle never ends.

There are a few designs that try to mitigate this problem. The simplest design is to '''disallow barrels''' in the seed stockpile. Seeds will continue to be stored in bags (you cannot stop this by any means, if empty, unforbidden bags exist). You will continue to get some planting job cancellations when a bag is removed to pick up new seeds, but it is nowhere near as bad as the situation you get with barrels.

== Multiple stockpile designs ==

=== Double stockpile ===

Another design that works well for seeds uses two stockpiles. The first stockpile is set to "take from anywhere", and disallows barrels. This stockpile is typically quite small, because it only holds items temporarily. The second stockpile is set to "take from links only", and is linked to take from the first stockpile (and the two stockpiles are extremely close together). This second stockpile may permit barrels. This design gives you the increased storage capacity of the stockpile with containers (for long term storage), while minimizing the amount of the time the barrels spend out of their stockpile. Rather than being dragged all the way from the seed stockpile to the dining room (or still, or farmer's workshop, etc.) the barrel only has to move a few tiles to the neighboring stockpile.

Neither of these designs will completely eliminate job cancellations, but they reduce the spam (and the time a planter spends waiting for seeds) immensely.

The double-stockpile design is also particularly good for heavy items, like armor. An armor stockpile that accepts items from anywhere and permits bins will cause dwarves to drag bins full of metal armor all the way down to the forges and back. If you're using magma forges a hundred levels down, along corridors that have to twist around caverns, such a trip can take literally weeks. The armor in that bin is unavailable for that entire time. But if you make a small "feeder" stockpile with no bins that takes from anywhere, dwarves will simply carry pieces of armor one at a time from the forge to the feeder stockpile. A larger long-term storage stockpile has bins, takes from links only, and takes from the nearby feeder stockpile. The heavy bins will only have to be moved a few tiles, and the armor in them is unavailable for a much shorter time.

=== Single source distribution ===

This design works well for inputs that come from a single location (e.g. plants from [[farming|farm plots]]), and are used in many other locations. Rather than simply putting a plant stockpile by each workshop that uses plants (which would mean a great deal of hauling barrels from those workshops to the farm plots to pick up new plants), place one "source" plant stockpile by the farms which disallows barrels, and takes from anywhere. All the farm crops will go there first (directly, because no barrels are involved).

Now, place a plant stockpile by each workshop that uses plants ([[still]], [[farmer's workshop]], etc.), set it to take from links only, and link it to take from the "source" stockpile. Ideally, each of these workshop-feeding stockpiles will take only an appropriately chosen subset of the plants (the still takes only brewable plants, while the farmer's workshop for the textile industry only takes plants that can be processed into [[thread]], and so on). You may choose whether to allow barrels on a case by case basis, depending on how many of each plant you expect to have at once, how time-critical their processing is, etc.

If you are so inclined, you can use a [[Exploit#The_Minecart_Stop|quantum stockpile]] as the "source". This allows an infinite amount of storage in a tiny space. In the specific case of plants, this means your harvest ''always'' has somewhere to go, and will never wilt on the ground (unless your haulers are all busy elsewhere).

== Workshop layout for efficient hauling ==

It is virtually impossible to discuss stockpile design without simultaneously addressing workshop (or workflow) design. They are two sides of the same coin.

Most workshops take some items as ''input'' and produce other items as ''output''. Consider an entire chain of workshops and products from raw materials to finished products. The closer each workshop's inputs are, the faster your dwarves can process them. When the outputs are in turn used as inputs in another workshop, it makes sense to keep those two workshops close together, to minimize the amount of distance each intermediate product has to move. In many cases, you may not even ''need'' a stockpile for the intermediate products; just let them sit in the first workshop until the second workshop is ready for them. (This depends on the workshop and the products.)

It's also worth mentioning that heavily congested corridors are extremely inefficient. Your most heavily traveled tunnels should be at ''least'' two tiles wide, and three tiles is better. When dwarves have to squeeze past each other, one of them has to stop moving to let the other go by. Worse, dwarves who are ''about'' to collide will run a path-finding algorithm (which takes computer time), and if an alternative route is available, they'll go out of their way - possibly a ''long'' way out of their way - rather than simply stop and let the other dwarf squeeze by. Try to avoid this.

=== Stockpile placement ===

One strategy is to place the feeder stockpile immediately around the workshop. This works well for single workshops with just one input (like a [[mason's workshop|mason's]] or [[mechanic's workshop]]).

SSSSS S feeder stockpile
SWWWS W workshop
SWWWS
SWWWS
SSSSS

Another strategy is to put the workshop's stockpile above or below it. This keeps the stockpiles close to the workshops, and lets the workshops expand, even adding workshops on additional Z-levels as necessary. It works particularly well with multiple similar workshops working off the same stockpile.

adjacent z-level
WWW WWW SSSSSSS
WWW<WWW SSS>SSS
WWW WWW SSSSSSS

== Specific industry designs ==

=== Farm-centric ===

[[Farming|Farms]] feed a wide array of workshops. Plants from farms may directly feed the [[kitchen]], [[still]], [[millstone]] (or [[quern]]) and [[farmer's workshop]]. The mill and farmer's workshop feed the [[loom]] and [[dyer]] which feed the [[clothier]]. Farms are in turn supplied seeds from the still, mill, farmer's workshop and dining rooms, completing the cycle of plant life.

As such, it's a good idea to design all (or at least, many) of these workshops and their [[stockpile]]s around each other. Above-ground farms can only be built in certain places, and underground farms are much ''easier'' to build in soil layers, so in many cases this dictates the location and layout.

=== Butcher & Tanning ===

Because tanners are supplied directly from a butcher it's best to put them right next to each other. Designate a refuse stockpile taking Corpses for the butcher. Let the hides sit in the [[butcher's shop]], and the tanner will take them directly to the [[tanner's shop]] with no hauling jobs required.

Consider placing a [[stockpile#Refuse|refuse stockpile]] somewhere behind an airlock (to keep out the [[miasma]]), to take the cartilage and other useless by-products.

* Note: When near a [[necromancer|necromancer tower]], butcher shops and refuse piles where corpses are collected should be kept within the fortress out of line of sight of any necromancer. When in an evil [[biome]] which causes the dead to reanimate, corpses should be disposed of promptly, preferably in magma.

=== Kitchen ===

A food stockpile accepting meat/fish, raw edible [[crop|plants]]*†, [[cheese]], [[Quarry bush|leaves]], cookable [[millstone|milled]] plants (everything but the [[dye|dyes]]), [[fat]]†, cookable [[extract|extracts]] ([[Dwarven syrup]] and all the [[milk|milks]]†). If you cook [[Alcohol|booze]], include that. If you want to reserve some edible plants for [[still|brewing]], leave them out. Allow the maximum barrels. Remember to turn off prepared food.
:''(* [[plump helmet]], [[muck root]], [[bloated tuber]], [[prickle berry]], [[strawberry]], [[rat weed]], [[fisher berry]] and [[sun berry]])'' 
:''(† These items generally have better uses than cooking: [[milk]] for [[cheese]], [[fat]] for [[tallow]] which is used in [[soap]] and [[crop|plants]] for brewing as cooking will not return seeds. See [[kitchen]] for more information.)''

=== Brewing ===

A food stockpile accepting brewable [[plant|plants]]. Some of these have other uses, like pig tail for making thread, so you might want to disallow them if you plan on using them for something else. Remember to turn off prepared food.

Also include a barrel stockpile near your [[still]] to ensure a steady supply of empty barrels.

== Use of wheelbarrows ==

[[Wheelbarrow]]s are tremendously useful tools, when properly applied. They allow a dwarf to move a single item at the dwarf's normal walking speed, ''regardless of the item's weight''. But they have trade-offs, so they should not be used in every stockpile.

A major trade-off is that the dwarf has to walk to the stockpile first to fetch the wheelbarrow, then take the wheelbarrow to the item, and finally back to the stockpile. So, each hauling job may involve a much greater travel distance, and even though all the walking done at full speed, the total time spent may actually increase if you aren't careful.

Wheelbarrows are used by default in stone stockpiles, and for good reason -- stones are ''heavy''! Dwarves, especially [[Attribute#Strength|weak]] ones, will move extremely slowly when hauling a stone without a wheelbarrow or [[minecart]]. It is strongly recommend that if you have any workshops which process stones, you use a feeder stockpile near them (linked to give to the workshop, so the mason doesn't carry a stone all the way from her bedroom!), and use wheelbarrows in that stockpile. This way, the stone is only ever carried by hand for a few tiles, from the stockpile to the workshop, by the mason/mechanic/craftsdwarf doing the work.

Furniture stockpiles are another good use of wheelbarrows, as many pieces of furniture are extremely heavy (a granite statue weighs 156Γ, and a gold statue weighs 1159Γ, despite being made out of 3 gold bars that weigh 115Γ apiece -- dwarves aren't great at math).

By contrast, wheelbarrows are not a great choice for a wood stockpile. Most logs of wood weigh about 30Γ, which will not slow a dwarf of average strength. Forcing the use of wheelbarrows would just increase the time spent per log, as well as reducing the number of simultaneous log hauling jobs. (Weak or very weak dwarves ''will'' be slowed when hauling typical logs; you may wish to disable wood hauling on these dwarves. Ironically, very weak dwarves make great stone haulers, because they can push a wheelbarrow perfectly well.)

== See Also ==
*[[Minecart]]
*[[Exploit#Quantum_stockpiles|Quantum stockpiles]]

{{Category|Design}}
{{Category|Guides}}
{{Category|Stockpiles}}
[[ru:Stockpile design]]

Gander

2023-01-19T20:25:01Z

Vallode: Redirected page to Goose

#REDIRECT [[goose]]

Template:Quality

2023-01-13T21:44:56Z

Vallode: Add id

{{#if:{{#var:quality_displayed}}|[[Category:Pages with multiple quality templates]]|{{#vardefine:quality_displayed|1}}<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}|Masterwork|DF2014|v0.34|v0.31|40d|23a|Utility={{Category|ns={{NAMESPACE}}|{{#switch:{{ucfirst:{{lc:{{{1}}}}}}}|Tattered|Fine|Superior|Exceptional|Masterwork={{ucfirst:{{lc:{{{1}}}}}}}|#default=Unknown}} Quality Articles|{{PAGENAME}}}}|#default=[[Category:Quality ranks in invalid namespaces|{{PAGENAME}}]]}}</includeonly><div id="page-quality-rating" style="text-align: right;margin: 0.8em 0;font-size:75%">
{{#switch:{{ucfirst:{{lc:{{{1}}}}}}}|Tattered|Fine|Superior|Exceptional|Masterwork=|#default=[[DF:Quality#Unknown|!!UNKNOWN!!]] {{dot}} }} [[DF:Quality#Tattered|xTATTEREDx]] {{dot}} [[DF:Quality#Fine|+FINE+]] {{dot}} [[DF:Quality#Superior|*SUPERIOR*]] {{dot}} [[DF:Quality#Exceptional|≡EXCEPTIONAL≡]] {{dot}} [[DF:Quality#Masterwork|☼MASTERWORK☼]]</div>}}<noinclude>
{{Documentation}}
</noinclude>

Help:Namespace

2023-01-10T18:38:17Z

Vallode: Remove DF2014 being the latest namespace

A '''namespace''' is a prefix in a page's title that serves as a way to organize large groups of pages (in contrast, [[Help:Category|Categories]] are added on a page-by-page basis). For instance, this page is in the Help namespace, and [[DF2012:Alcohol]] is in the DF2012 namespace. The namespace a page is in can be easily identified by looking at the page title; For instance, on this page, "Help" is the namespace, and "Namespace" is the page name. They are separated by a colon (":").

A page without a namespace is in the '''main namespace''', or "Mainspace" (all pages are in a namespace, even if it is not apparent from the title). Also note that colons do not necessarily indicate a namespace - for example, [[Foo:Example]] is in the main namespace, since the "Foo" namespace does not exist (the page name is "Foo:Example"). [[:Category:DF2012:Flying]] is in the "Category" namespace (the page name is "DF2012:Flying").

==Uses==
On this wiki, namespaces are used to categorize pages for versions of Dwarf Fortress - we can also use categories, but that would not allow us to make multiple pages on the same subject for different versions. Any pages in the Main namespace are either the Main Page, or redirects.
Any wiki can have their own use and meaning for namespaces - for instance, a wiki might not use namespaces at all, having every content page in the Main space, and another wiki may have many namespaces in use, each for their own subject. <s>These wikis are often most untidy and unorganized.</s> There is no convention for namespaces that spans across every website running the MediaWiki software, as they are in no way connected (except for cross-wiki affiliation).

==List of namespaces==
Here is a list of every namespace currently in use. Note that every namespace has their own talk namespace, and is named after the parent namespace, suffixed by "Talk". For instance, the talk space for the Help namespaces is named "Help Talk".

Also note that all namespaces (and aliases) are case-insensitive. For example, DF2012 and df2012 are functionally the same (although the wiki will change "df2012" to "DF2012" in titles).
* 23a: this namespace is for articles about version 0.23.130.23a.
* 40d: this namespace is for articles about version 0.28.181.40d.
* v0.31: this namespace is for articles about version 0.31.25.
* v0.34: this namespace is for articles about version 0.34.11.
* DF2014: this namespace is for articles about version 0.47.05.
* Help: this namespace is for articles that describe wiki concepts, or teach new editors how things work.
* Dwarf Fortress Wiki: These are for projects, wiki rules, and other wiki-specific discussion. Discussions about specific pages should instead go to their own talk page.
* '''Main''': These pages are not specific to a version of DF, including the [[Main Page]], [[orthogonal]], [[ASCII Art Reward]], etc. They currently also provide information {{current/version/ns|v50}}, which is the latest version of Dwarf Fortress.
* Masterwork: These are articles on Masterwork Dwarf Fortress, which is a mod.
* Category: These represent categories, which help organize pages by topic rather than by version.
* User: These pages are for users themselves to make. Logged-in users can create a '''user page''' with information about themselves, DF-related projects, or anything else they want. Users can also create any pages they like in their "userspace", as subpages of their user page. For example, a user named Bob can create User:Bob, User:Bob/sandbox, User:Bob/this/is/a/long/list/of/subpages, and so on. Users should generally avoid editing other users' user pages.
** User talk pages are special: leaving a message on a user's talk page automatically notifies the user. (However, editing user talk subpages does not generate a notification)

===Special namespaces===
* File: These are not actually content pages - anything is this namespace is a media file, and those can be audio, video and pictures.
* MediaWiki: Pages in this namespace are system messages, controlling text that appears on the wiki (e.g. the sidebar or the "View history" tab). These pages can only be edited by administrators.
* Special: These pages are controlled by the software this wiki is using, and cannot be edited by normal means. They are necessary for a variety of tasks on the wiki.

===Aliases===
{| class="wikitable" style="min-width:30%"
|-
! Alias
! Redirects to
|-
|cv || {{DF:Current}}
|-
|DF2010 || v0.31
|-
|DF || rowspan=2|Dwarf Fortress Wiki
|-
|Project
|-
|MA || Masterwork
|-
|Mod || Modification
|-
|MW || MediaWiki
|}
For example, [[DF2010:Cat]] and [[v0.31:Cat]] link to the same page.

Cow

2023-01-10T15:13:31Z

Vallode: Remove migrated article, lgtm

{{Quality|Exceptional|11:21, 22 December 2022 (UTC)}}
{{Creaturelookup/0
|image=cows_icon.png
|bone=15
|meat=10-14
|fat=9
|skull=1
|horn=2
|hoof=4
|lung=2
|intestine=2
|spleen=1
|kidney=2
|eye=2
|brain=1
|heart=1
|liver=1
|tripe=1
|sweetbread=1
|skin=hide
|contrib=no
|wiki=yes}}
{{av}}
{{creaturedesc}}

'''Cows''' are [[domestic animal]]s that can be brought on [[embark]]. Males are predictably called ''bulls'', while females are ''cows'' and infants are ''calves''. Much like other domestic herbivores, they require a [[pasture]] to survive, otherwise they will starve. If attacked by a hostile creature, cows will normally flee rather than fight and may be killed, so it's best to keep them someplace safe.

Cows are among the largest of all domestic livestock (losing only to [[yak]]s and [[water buffalo]]s), making them prime targets for a [[meat industry]]. They are also a good source of [[fat]], [[bone]]s and [[horns]]. As one would expect, cows can be [[milk]]ed, and their milk can be later turned into [[cheese]]. They are also fairly valuable [[pet]]s for [[Dwarf|dwarves]] who decide to adopt them.

Some dwarves [[Preferences|like]] cows for their ''haunting moos''.

[[Image:Cow female black white.jpg|thumb|center|400px|Admired for its ''haunting moos''.]]
{{gamedata}}
{{creatures}}
{{Category|Animals}}

Template:Quality

2023-01-10T15:11:43Z

Vallode: Re-enable on main namespace. Remove absolute positioning.

{{#if:{{#var:quality_displayed}}|[[Category:Pages with multiple quality templates]]|{{#vardefine:quality_displayed|1}}<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}|Masterwork|DF2014|v0.34|v0.31|40d|23a|Utility={{Category|ns={{NAMESPACE}}|{{#switch:{{ucfirst:{{lc:{{{1}}}}}}}|Tattered|Fine|Superior|Exceptional|Masterwork={{ucfirst:{{lc:{{{1}}}}}}}|#default=Unknown}} Quality Articles|{{PAGENAME}}}}|#default=[[Category:Quality ranks in invalid namespaces|{{PAGENAME}}]]}}</includeonly><div style="text-align: right;margin: 0.8em 0;font-size:75%">
{{#switch:{{ucfirst:{{lc:{{{1}}}}}}}|Tattered|Fine|Superior|Exceptional|Masterwork=|#default=[[DF:Quality#Unknown|!!UNKNOWN!!]] {{dot}} }} [[DF:Quality#Tattered|xTATTEREDx]] {{dot}} [[DF:Quality#Fine|+FINE+]] {{dot}} [[DF:Quality#Superior|*SUPERIOR*]] {{dot}} [[DF:Quality#Exceptional|≡EXCEPTIONAL≡]] {{dot}} [[DF:Quality#Masterwork|☼MASTERWORK☼]]</div>}}<noinclude>
{{Documentation}}
</noinclude>

Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions

2023-01-08T23:27:33Z

Vallode:

{{archive|
# [[DF Talk:Versions/Archive 1|Page 1]]}}

== Version 0.31.19 starts a new DF generation? ==

My reading of Toady's comments on the release of 0.31.19 is that it came out basically because he felt it would take too long to get DF all the way to 0.32. With the ore changes, the sitefinder changes, the addition of grazing and several different industries, there's a lot of changes between 31.18 and 31.19. So I'm thinking it might be a good idea to call it the first release of DF2011 - and what we refer to as "DF2010" would then become 0.31.18.

Thoughts? --[[User:DeMatt|DeMatt]] 07:06, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

==Revisiting Redirects==
I wasn't around when the redirect policy was created, and I'm having trouble understanding the rationale. The example claims that linking [[Main:Cheese]] to [[cv:Cheese maker]] is problematic...but mainspace only ever redirects to the current version. If the best target in the current version is cheese maker, why not link to it directly? (It's not, at least for Cheese, since [[DF2012:Cheese]] exists now.) The explanation seems to be claiming that 40d articles that link to Cheese will follow the Mainspace link--but that hasn't been the case for a long while now. Articles in 40d automatically link against other articles in 40d, so that version remains internally consistent no matter where mainspace links to in the current version. For a current example, what do we gain by linking [[Main:Mead]] to [[cv:Mead]] and linking [[DF2012:Mead]] to [[DF2012:Alcohol]]?

If this really is just an outdated procedure, I recommend we drop the mummery and allow mainspace to link to cv:(best target). Double redirects ''may'' work (sometimes, but [[Main:Mead]] demonstrates a common problem where automatic redirection fails), but if they are unnecessary I think they should be avoided, partly because of problems like [[Main:Mead]] and partly because of the effort required to protect double redirects from users who believe they are problematic.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:16, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

:I was just thinking that. I'm currently attempting to write a basic extension to eliminate the need for mainspace redirects entirely, although Mediawiki's class structure may make this more difficult than I had hoped (the only method I've found for resolving redirects takes the ''article text'' instead of a title, e.g. "#REDIRECT ..."). I do agree that the current situation with redirects isn't ideal, so I'm hoping this will work better (once I get it to work). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:42, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Okay, that wasn't quite as clear as I meant it to be. In general, I think this is a tricky situation. Mediawiki wasn't designed to have five content namespaces, and certainly not chains of redirects between them. The problem that was pointed out in the [[DF:REDIR|policy]] is the fact that with:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
pages in the cv: namespace can't use [[<nowiki/>foo]], since the namespace links modification causes it to be treated as [[<nowiki/>cv:foo]] instead, which doesn't exist. The current suggested solution is this:
Main:Foo -> cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
This fixes the problem of [[<nowiki/>foo]] not working on cv pages, but creates issues with double redirects not always working. Another solution, which is more intuitive to new editors, is:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
Both require creating two redirects. The first method has the advantage of ''ensuring'' that the cv redirect exists (otherwise, main:foo would be a redlink), while the second has the advantage of working more reliably in a couple cases.

What I'm trying to do is make main:Foo "jump" to cv:Foo when cv:foo exists, ''even if main:foo doesn't exist'' (basically it would treat all mainspace pages as redirects to cv pages, but only if the cv page exists and not the mainspace page). I had main:Bar jumping to cv:Bar fine, but if cv:Foo redirected to cv:Bar, accessing main:Foo would mysteriously stop at cv:Foo even if I increased the redirect limit. What I'm trying to do now is follow the redirects internally, without relying on Mediawiki to do it automatically - unfortunately, that has proved to be harder than I had hoped (and I sent my web server into an infinite loop while trying). I will try to work on this some more when I get a chance, although I'm not sure when that'll be yet :(. For now, feel free to fix broken double mainspace redirects as necessary, as long as redirects in the DF2012 namespace stay pointing to the right page (and new mainspace redirects get added in the DF2012 namespace too). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

:You're treating cv like a namespace--it's not. It is simply shorthand for "fill in the current version here". [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Briess&diff=182404&oldid=181281 As I discovered a long time ago on a server not far away], linking from Main:Foo to cv:Foo tends to break redirection chains. If, instead of linking to cv:Foo, you link to DF2012:Foo, it might just work. It would, of course, be better if your patch could evaluate cv itself, but even if you have to hardcode the current version it's a single point of maintenance that requires update very infrequently. (For that matter, we could probably dispense with the cv hack entirely and just have a bot update mainspace links from DF2012 to DF201X when we switch to a new version.)--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:05, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
::I know cv isn't a namespace - I was just trying to avoid future confusion when the DF2012 namespace changes. It's interesting that changing "cv" to "DF2012" fixes some broken redirects, although I've found that simply making an edit to a broken redirect can usually fix it as well. I've actually had the most problems with double redirects when the second one (in the DF2012 namespace) doesn't use the DF2012 prefix (e.g. main:Foo containing <nowiki>[[cv:Foo]] and DF2012:Foo containing [[Bar]]</nowiki>). I'd rather keep the cv alias even if it isn't necessary for mainspace redirects when I get the patch to work, since it makes it easier to refer to the current version of the page (for example, several MDF articles contain links to a vanilla page for things that don't change in the mod).
::Also, using aliases like "cv" is supported by Mediawiki; in fact, several WMF wikis use them (for example, "[[wikipedia:WP:Redirects|WP:Redirects]]" on Wikipedia). It's quite likely that Mediawiki isn't processing double redirects using aliases correctly, though, since that's uncommon on most wikis. --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:35, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

In light of the lack of support for the current redirect policy, I propose we replace the current redirect section with:

:Mainspace article pages should use the cv: alias when redirecting to a versioned page, which will automatically update the link when a new version is released. For example, page "Main:Foo" should redirect to page "cv:Bar" (where "Bar" is the page that best describes the topic Foo in the current version).

:Pages in mainspace should only redirect to an older versioned page if that content no longer exists in the current version of the game (e.g. [[Cave river]], [[Chunk]]). In these cases the cv: alias cannot be used.

:Pages inside a versioned namespace should not use the cv: alias. Instead, they should redirect to the best page within that versioned namespace (e.g. [[DF2012:Dodging]], [[v0.31:Drink]]).

:Due to limitations of the wiki software, double redirects should be avoided if possible. When fixing double redirects in mainspace, please make sure to use the cv: alias as appropriate.

If no one objects, I will make this change in a few days.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:21, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

:Okay with me. It may be worth mentioning that double redirects only really need to be changed when they don't work (since changing a lot of redirects that work isn't necessary), but I think it's clearer and more relevant than the current policy. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Done.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:55, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I was finally able to get my extension to work after being motivated by one too many malfunctioning redirects. It now causes nonexistent pages in the main namespace to behave exactly like redirects to their DF2012 counterparts (when linked to, accessed directly, and transcluded). Double redirects also work (up to 100, in fact, although that was a temporary safety measure that I'll probably change). This means we'll be able to safely get rid of all mainspace redirects (redirects that redirect to something other than "cv" will still function if not deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:20, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
:What about articles which don't exist in the current version but do exist in older versions? Will those still need mainspace redirects, or will your extension be able to automatically redirect them to v0.31/40d/23a? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] ([[User talk:Quietust|talk]]) 01:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
::It ignores all mainspace pages that actually have content, including redirects, so pages like [[masons guild]] won't be affected (unless deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:47, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Done and deployed. [[Cat]] is still treated as a redirect, even though I just deleted it (try clicking on the "redirected from" link). Pages that exist are ignored, so [[Masons guild]] and [[History of Dwarf Fortress]] still function normally (as a redirect to a 23a page and a non-redirect, respectively). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm sending around a bot right now to delete all redirects of the format "foo -> cv:foo" (a surprising number don't fit this format, so I'm leaving them alone for now). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:43, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

:I'm confused. Do we use double redirects or not? Is there a single place we define our linking policy (including redirects), and is it updated?
:I had trouble linking to [[Consolidated_development]] in [[v0.34:Dragon]]. It kept pointing to v0.34:Consolidated_development, which does not exist. I ended up linking to Main:Consolidated_development to make it work. --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] ([[User talk:Nahno|talk]]) 10:18, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

::That's a separate problem altogether - links in the versioned namespaces (v0.34, v0.31, 40d, 23a) automatically link to pages within their namespace. I may be able to set up a fallback to mainspace once I'm able to deploy again, but for now the "main:" alias is the intended solution. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 11:36, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

== Google often directs people to the 0.31 page ==

I've noticed a couple of times that finding a wiki page from an external search will often drop me onto a page from an older version. Is it possible to mitigate this somehow for new players? I could imagine something like redirecting old:Bar -> cv:Bar unless the user has come from old:Foo; no idea if that would actually work though. [[User:PeridexisErrant|PeridexisErrant]] ([[User talk:PeridexisErrant|talk]]) 11:48, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

:As a temporary solution, I could write a script that displays a banner of some kind if the user came from an external site. I'll ask Briess if he can do anything on the server level to increase the weighting of the current version's pages. (Obviously there are situations where people are looking for old pages, like [[23a:dungeon master]], so we don't want to disable indexing entirely on old pages.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:03, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

== DF2014? ==

As Toady [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ draws closer to a new release], it might be worthwhile to discuss the addition of a new version to the wiki. The upcoming release covers two years of changes and introduces a number of new plants, foods, drinks, multi-tile trees, climbing, jumping, etc., so it is likely to have significant changes from the current DF2012. To avoid having people start new pages (and lose all the effort spent refining the prior version's page), I think it would be best to have a bot automatically copy over the DF2012 pages as a starting point for DF2014. I would suggest that these copied pages include a noticebox template mentioning that the content may be outdated, so that we can easily track which pages have been reviewed. I think either the {{tl|version check}} or {{tl|old}} template would work. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:43, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

:This is what [[User:QuietBot]] did after the 0.34 release, so it's certainly possible to use the same script to migrate to DF2014. I would like a way of tagging migrated pages, since inaccuracies in some pages went unnoticed for months after they were migrated. Since {{tl|old}} is already in use, {{tl|version check}} may be a better solution (it can be reworded slightly, or we can make a separate template for DF2014 migration). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:23, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
:Made [[Template:DF2014 migrated]] as an example. Any thoughts? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:32, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

== Redirects inconsistency ==

Following a redirect is supposed to be exactly the same as going straight to the page it redirects to, but this actually isn't the case:
* Go to [[Seeds]] and you get [[v0.34:Seed]] (outdated)
* Go to http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Seeds&redirect=no and click on the link and you get to [[DF2014:Seed]] (current)
So if you search for "seed", the top result is the DF2014 version. But search for "seeds" and you get the redirect, which sends you to the outdated page instead. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

While I'm talking about redirects, it seems redirects to sections don't work: see [[DF2014:How do I manage my seeds and crops]]. I know MediaWiki is capable of this trick because Wikipedia does it. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:32, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

:I have absolutely no idea why [[seeds]] redirects to a v0.34 page - it could be a Mediawiki bug. The section links issue is due to a known issue in the redirect extension we use, which has yet to be fixed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:01, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
:It looks like deleting both [[Seeds]] and [[DF2014:Seeds]] fixed things (by allowing AutoRedirect to handle the redirects instead). Feel free to tag any others with {{tl|bad redirect}}. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::It gets stranger. [[Vial]] redirects explicitly to [[cv:Flask]] which displays (when you look at it with &redirect=no) as [[DF2014:Flask]], but still goes to the v0.34 version. It seems redirects interpret the cv: pseudo-namespace (or whatever it's called) in an outdated way. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 18:08, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::I've added a note to this page about this issue. If it gets resolved, the note should be removed. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 21:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

==Reorganizing versions==

The internet deals with moved content... poorly. Google is still linking to v0.34 pages more than a year after the switch to "DF2014", and even the wiki software still has cached links pointing to the old version pages.

I propose reorganizing versions on the wiki to avoid moving content whenever possible. Instead of having a temporary "current version" namespace that changes occasionally, all the current information gets promoted to the Main namespace. When the next version split occurs, the Main articles as of a certain revision number can be copied to the newly-created permanent "old version" namespace, while all the current information remains in Main. This not only fixes the link rot issue, but it has a few other benefits as well: fewer administrative tasks, no lockdown (a historical version of the Main pages can be copied at any point, even if the Main articles are already modified for the new version), almost all the article history is maintained in the Main article (instead of being spread unevenly across multiple versions), no "temporary" namespaces are needed, fewer problematic long redirect chains, and hopefully less user confusion (since Main gets priority in search results, etc.).

As an example, today we would not have a DF2014 namespace (which is good because "temporary" namespaces historically disappear anyway). If you ran a search for [[seed]] you'd end up at Main:seed, which would have all the current information on seeds. The version box at the top of the page would still link to the older versions of the seed article. When a new version is released, an admin would choose a revision number and copy the Main:seed article as it exists at that revision number to v0.40:seed. That's it. One historical copy that needs little to no new editing, and zero redirections/moves.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:02, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

:Makes sense to me. It would involve a lot of work, though (e.g. fixing templates and categories to account for the current version being in mainspace), although that should be doable thanks to {{tl|category}}, {{tl|version switch}}, etc.. A bot could be set up to copy revisions from before a release date as well, which would be more difficult (and maybe slower) than a direct copy, but not severely. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:24, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

:Actually, there are a few issues with that, namely that there wouldn't be an easy way to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned mainspace pages. There are ways to resolve Google search priority (we can exclude pages from older versions from search engine results if there are newer versions of those pages available, for example). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:47, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::There aren't very many non-versioned mainspace pages, and determining if a page is versioned is as simple as looking for the version template and/or categories added by the version template (e.g. copy [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Category:Current this category] instead of Main:*). The problem with "suggesting" newer pages to Google is that they obviously aren't crawling our wiki regularly (if they were, the fact that the mainspace redirects point to new pages would automatically be picked up). Even if your Google hints worked they wouldn't do anything for all the other broken links out on the 'net.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:35, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: Google actually crawls the wiki constantly - we probably get crawl hits from google for a continuous block of 2-3 hours per day, each and every day. Why they are slow to update is beyond me though. I can't remember why we didn't do this initially, but there was a technical limitation involved if I remember correctly. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] ([[User talk:Briess|talk]]) 22:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: There are <meta> tags that can be used to hide pages from search results (for search engines that recognize them, that is). Searching for {{tl|av}} or [[:Category:Current]] might work, although we'd have to make sure all of the DF2014 pages include that (some pages don't, particularly some disambiguation pages, although all of them should). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:53, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

:Is there a particular reason main and current are separate to begin with?—[[User:CLA|CLA]] ([[User talk:CLA|talk]]) 00:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

::It's mostly intended to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned pages and make version-related templates simpler to work with, since every versioned page has a namespace. I wasn't active here in 2010 when this system was created, so Briess and Emi would know more.
::Another issue I just thought of with Loci's suggestion is categories - currently, categories like [[:Category:Animals]] are used to organize the versioned sub-categories. Sure, we can change {{tl|Category}} to categorize mainspace pages in [[:Category:v0.40:Animals]] or [[:Category:DF2014:Animals]], but that would be less straightforward because there wouldn't be a namespace with that name (until pages are migrated when a newer major version is released). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

:Moving current pages to the main namespace sounds like a great idea. -[[User:Jecowa|Jecowa]] ([[User talk:Jecowa|talk]]) 20:47, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Another thought: dealing with migrating redirects could be difficult with this proposal - specifically, determining which redirects should be migrated to a versioned namespace. Redirects can't contain {{tl|av}}, at least not before ``#REDIRECT``. I ''think'' it would be possible to copy pages in two stages, though - all non-redirects first, then all redirects whose targets were also copied. Thoughts? Anything I'm missing? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:41, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Some subpages (particularly /raw and /Edit notice) also deliberately lack {{tl|av}}, although those shouldn't be too hard to handle. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

:Redirect pages (and all other edge cases I've looked at) can be included in categories (like [[:Category:Current]]) to determine whether or not they should be copied into an archival version. But if the redirects are "properly qualified" then they can all be copied over blindly. Mainspace redirects pointing to versioned information should use a blank namespace (which will be automatically constrained to the archival namespace); mainspace redirects pointing to unversioned information should use an explicit "Main" (which will automatically link back to the unversioned page). Then, when [[[[Toady]]]] gets copied to [[[[v0.4x:Toady]]]] it will point back to [[[[Main:Toady One]]]]. Meanwhile, [[[[Beer]]]], copied to [[[[v0.4x:Beer]]]], will properly point to [[[[v0.4x:Alcohol]]]].--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:00, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

::I think qualifying redirects is the best solution here - categorizing redirects manually is another possible source of errors, since categories (or a lack thereof) would only be visible on the redirect page itself, and [[:Category:Current]] is a hidden category. Copying over mainspace redirects into versioned namespaces would also resolve some issues that have come up due to those not reliably existing currently. I should be able to set up a bot script to add "main:" to current mainspace redirects (and it shouldn't break anything, since those redirects go to other mainspace pages anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:57, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

(Note: I wrote all of this without noticing the previous discussion above.) I was wondering, when the wiki creates a new namespace for a major release again, if it is possible to ''not'' create a namespace for the next current version (e.g. "DF202x") and instead have the mainspace articles (which are currently redirects) become the new cv and move the content there. Therefore, [[cv:Cat]] would just be "[[Cat]]" (or [[Main:Cat]]).

Certain namespace-related templates like [[Template:Ns/0]] would need to be changed, though nothing significant as far as I know. For most cases, any "DF2014" would be replaced with "Main" or even blank. There's also multiple extensions handling the current namespace system and they may need to be modified too, though I'm not sure if or how much. I'm guessing based on the discussions above that it will change stuff up.

My reason is the current namespace is increasingly becoming more anachronistic. "DF2014" could be misinterpreted as "this page is about the 2014 version of the game" or "this page was last updated in 2014", which I've seen a few people in forums mention. Granted that [[Template:Av]] is on the top of very article, I still think the namespace is inconsistent with the recentness of the article. But how is this related to what I'm asking for? Let's say we continue the current system: if we happen to do a new namespace change this year and create DF2020, the next major release (after graphics/UI) will be mythgen, which is estimated to take several years to develop (the Big Wait), and so the anachronism will start over again. The proposed way will prevent this from occurring for the next major release and every release thereafter.

I think the confusion with having a namespace that becomes old-fashioned overtime supersedes the confusion with not marking current versioned articles with a namespace. Most users just search "Cat" on the search bar and naturally expect to get information about the latest release of DF. So if users go a page that's just titled "Cat", they won't expect outdated info about cats from a previous release. That's how the current system works anyways. We'll be skipping the two-step process that we have now. It'll make several wiki tasks much simpler as well. Editors can create new articles for current versions without remembering to add a namespace. It'll fix any existing issues with (double) redirects; instead of [[Main:Kitten]] redirecting to [[cv:Kitten]], which goes to [[DF2014:Kitten]], which then redirects to [[DF2014:Cat]], [[Main:Kitten]] would just redirect to [[Main:Cat]]. And the cv: alias will no longer be necessary since "cv:" = "Main:" and will be forever.

There's no need to differentiate the current version and previous versions with a namespace for the current version is what I'm saying. Articles of previous versions will retain their respective namespaces. Users will still type "40d:Cat" to go to the 40d version of the article, but if they want the current version, they'll just type "Cat" (like now). The mainspace containing the "live" version of an article is natural and would create no uncertainty when browsing the wiki. And it would simplify the wiki somewhat and future-proof this anachronism problem. As a bonus, this change will also prevent web search engines from showing previous version pages when typing "DF cat" or something. (This isn't happening right now as DF2014 has been the current namespace for ~6 years, but it'll happen again when everything moves to a new namespace.)

This is the gist of it, and I may have ignored most of the problems with this proposal. I have personally wished for the whole version namespacing be made less complicated and have been seeking for a solution, and I feel like this is the best way to go about in the future. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:27, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:<s>Whoops, looks like Loci already proposed this exact thing long ago. I definitely missed that discussion and should have checked first. My apologies. I'll move my text to that section and remove this one. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:36, 14 August 2020 (UTC)</s> Done. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:40, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:The main issue I have with that is that putting pages about the current version in a namespace also differentiates between those pages and pages not about ''any'' version (for example, [[Toady One]] does not need a 40d or v0.34 page). Yes, we can use {{tl|av}} to mark versioned pages, but people often forget to add that to new pages. The current system also allows determining whether a page is versioned or not from its title, which makes migrations a lot faster. Relying on {{tl|av}} would require either reading the content of every page (which would slow scripts down significantly) or cross-checking with the list of all pages including the template (feasible, but a bit more complicated, and still susceptible to missing templates). I suppose that manually fixing and migrating pages missing {{tl|av}} later wouldn't be too much work, though.
:I am definitely in favor of changing "DF2014" (or a new namespace) to "Current", though. I was in favor of "DF2014" in 2014, but I don't think it makes sense anymore, and "Current" seemed to be a popular alternative in both the DF2012 and DF2014 discussions on the matter. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

== Weird redirect behaviour ==

[[Pump stack]] redirects to [[cv:Screw pump#Pump stack]]. If you look at the redirect itself it says it redirects to DF2014 namespace, which is correct. But if you actually follow the redirect, it goes to v0.34 namespace. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 16:10, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
:Yeah, that's part of the issue described in the above section (the wiki caching part, not on Google's end.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:00, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

== v50 organization ==

Some wiki admins have had a talk on Discord and decided that the most sustainable path forward is to put content for all future versions of DF in the main namespace. We will be working on a bot to do this in the next few days. Feel free to chime in with suggestions here. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

:Is it maybe possible to do backwards-namespacing? Like we have a "Main" namespace, which people are free to update, and whenever there's a new version of DF the "Main" namespace is copied into a namespace for the then old version, much like how you'd branch a stable branch from a development branch when working with a git-project? [[User:Therahedwig|Therahedwig]] ([[User talk:Therahedwig|talk]]) 23:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

::Yeah, we could do that if we decide to. We were talking about doing that for v50, actually, and might still do something similar to preserve edit history if it doesn't end up being too hard to automate. Our hope is that we will not introduce new namespaces for v50 -> v5x, unless there is a serious breaking change (and hopefully there isn't one). But if we change our mind, one advantage of the type of migration you mentioned is that it can be done retroactively - we can copy historical revisions that were current at the time of the release, and would only lose some typo fixes made after the release that apply to earlier versions as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:11, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

ETA is < 24 hours. Doing some final checks on a migration script. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 07:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

: We should really have a task list as there are many things that change and need updating. Including but not limited to:
:* Most templates that used the previous namespace convention broke, including nav templates.
:* Many game files changed locations and their pages need to be updated.
:* Raws need to be updated.
:* Various features added, changed, removed.
:* UI has been changed -- though I am more inclined to wait for classic release to avoid extra work --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

"''Raws need to be updated.''" Including applying text wraparound where necessary, I suppose - more than a few of them have proven to be that special kind of...''difficult'' to navigate otherwise, shall we say? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 12:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:There is already a task list in the [[#v50 migration|section below]] that includes templates and raws, with an explanation. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

== v50 migration ==

The initial migration script is done. New content is in the '''main''' namespace, e.g. [[Cat]]. Old content is still at [[DF2014:Cat]]. History was migrated to the ''new'' (main namespace) articles.

I know several things are broken still. Please reply if you find any others:
<div style="border-left: 2px solid red">
* <s>Versioned templates haven't been migrated yet (e.g. {{tl|vermin}} on [[Ant]])</s>
** Fixed. Most were migrated by a bot.
* <s>Raws are missing on all pages that use them.</s>
** This also affects sidebars, such as on [[Cat]] and [[Microcline]].
** Update: The DFRawFunctions extension has been upgraded to include v50 raws, using the "v50:" prefix for filenames instead of "DF2014:". <s>I haven't finished a migration script to create the /raw pages themselves, but they can typically be created manually by copying the DF2014 /raw pages and changing "DF2014" to "v50" everywhere.</s> —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
** Update 2: Raws have been added for all pages! They were copied from the "DF2014" pages and had "DF2014" replaced with "v50", which appears to have worked from a spot-check, but let me know if you find any problems. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
* Some pages where the DF2014 page was a redirect to a main namespace page that contained content were migrated incorrectly.
** In this case, the main namespace page is usually a redirect to itself. This can be fixed by undoing LethosorBot's edit to the main namespace page, then copying the content to the DF2014 page.
** Update: most seem to have been fixed manually - thanks! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* <s>Some main-namespace talk pages redirect to DF2014 talk pages. Some of these redirects work, and some (usually older ones) do not.</s>
** Fixed with a bot. Some redirects from talk pages to other deleted talk pages are now broken, e.g. [[Talk:Above_ground]] (exists) -> [[Talk:Tile attributes]] (redlink). I am leaving them like that because they redirect to where the talk page should be created, but I'm also fine with people deleting them if they really want to. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* {{tl|quality}} for new articles is disabled (see below)
* Some links from DF2014 to Main weren't working: e.g. the version selector [[DF2014:Mason's workshop]] was linking to [[DF2014:Main:Mason's workshop]] instead of [[Main:Mason's workshop]]. I'm not sure exactly why, but I fixed it with a change to the NamespaceLinks extension. Let me know if you spot similar broken links. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:19, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
</div>

—[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:54, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:The quality levels of the 50.03 pages seem to be missing. I'm not sure if that's covered under that first point. [[User:Trainzack|Trainzack]] ([[User talk:Trainzack|talk]]) 06:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::If the the [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Quality]] feature can be made to work with namespace scheme change, I suggest to automatically assign the lowest quality rating to all pages, alternately add the {{tl|old}} to all pages. Otherwise there will be a lot of pages that will fall through the cracks. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::I disabled {{tl|quality}} in the main namespace because it would require some rework to make the rating script and the template work properly there. Feel free to take a stab at the template. I will see what can be done on the extension side. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::What needs to be done on the template side? I'm not sure I see too big of an issue leaving pages as "unknown-quality" for now (or just change the default to tattered) until we get the rating script working. Is that script up anywhere, anything that could be helped with? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:10, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::They're already marked as unknown. Really the only issue I know of with the template is that it doesn't show up with some of the newer skins we added, and that can be fixed by getting rid of the absolute positioning. As for the script, it can be found at https://github.com/DF-Wiki/QualityRatings, and the issue is really only with the configuration system not recognizing the main namespace as valid. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:29, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::Great, I started having a crack at fixing the template with different themes. Is the preference to get some CSS going and then include it in the global stylesheet (i.e different styles per theme) or to try and get a "one size fits all" fix? —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 08:14, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I would rather avoid custom site-wide CSS if we can. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I appreciate that, I think it's the simplest solution to add a few lines to common.css though. Unless there is a way to attach CSS specifically to a template, I saw a few extensions that allowed that but I'm not sure if any are present in the wiki at the moment. Regardless there already exists a class `div.topicon` that is specifically for the quality ratings, is there an issue with expanding this class to accommodate the themes? The list of themes where the quality rating display is broken/invisible: Citizen, MinervaNeue, MonoBook. —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 21:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::What do you think of moving the template out of the topicon entirely and just placing it in a div? It would take up a (hopefully) small amount of vertical space in the article. [[User:Lethosor/Sandbox/Quality_test]] is an example. Unfortunately it isn't possible to prevent other templates from displaying above the quality this way ([https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User:Lethosor/Sandbox/Quality_test&oldid=283883]). So maybe we do need some custom CSS after all if we want that. I'm open to trying out whatever you propose. I'm a bit worried about future-proofing against skins we add later (particularly a mobile skin) but at least MediaWiki supports skin-specific global CSS as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:33, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::I would rather we avoid taking any more vertical space in the article. The growing block pyramid at the top, starting with version template, is annoying. If you end up placing it inside the article space please use a slim box 100% wide that would include both.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 01:19, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::Agreed with you Jan, however I see that as two different tasks (ArticleVersion template changes, getting quality back on pages). I made a test adjustment to the quality and it takes up a negligable amount of extra space. See [[User:Vallode/sandbox#Page_quality]] for the example, we'd be able to completely remove "topicon" (unless it is used somewhere else?) and then potentially move on to making the ArticleVersion template into a slim version on the left-hand-side instead of a large box? Let me know what you think. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:35, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

It appears some pages are redirecting recursively and never resolving correctly, like the [[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Character_table&redirect=no|character table]] and [[tileset repository]] 07:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
: Indeed, these can be caught here: [[Special:DoubleRedirects]] --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

It might be useful to change the notice title to "release information '''for editors'''" --[[Special:Contributions/142.59.195.176|142.59.195.176]] 10:26, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Can do. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::New here, hello. Should we set a date where we remove/only show the banner for logged in users. There are (some) pages that have 4 different notices about the upgrade. [[Engraving]] is one such page, the top banner states "information for editors", we then have the "this page was migrated" banner, a version selection which warns the article might be inaccurate, and a smaller banner saying the page might need to be updated. Quite a lot of screen space, I think we can start to slowly reduce the amount of warnings this coming month? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 10:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Unfortunately, only showing info to logged-in users is difficult with how MediaWiki caching works. In terms of reducing warnings, there is a discussion [[Template_talk:ArticleVersion#.22Note_that_some_content_may_still_need_to_be_updated..22|here]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:43, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::As for [[Engraving]] specifically, the {{tl|old}} banner was actually present on [[DF2014:Engraving]] as well and got carried over with the migration. I removed it, and agree that it was redundant. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:46, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Main talkpages seem to redirect to DF2014 talk. Not sure if it is intentional but I like it, though we should pay attention when creating new discussion relating to v50 ending up there.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 14:18, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:That's unintentional. I specifically wrote the migration script to not move talk pages, but that has the side-effect of leaving any previously-created "Talk -> DF2014 talk" redirects intact. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Yo Lethosor, are we adding graphic sprites for the pages in some way? Or are we waiting for you to add some sort of new template or something? I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that the current templates don't allow that. Not sure if I'm allowed to change/create any templates either, as I don't want to break things for hundreds of pages. Edit: And IF the icons are allowed, should they be left alone, or 2×-3× sized like how the Minecraft wiki does it? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 14:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Depends on which templates you mean. There are copyright concerns with uploading a premium sprite sheet, for instance. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm not talking about uploading an entire sprite sheet. I'm just talking about individual icons for each respective page. One image for cows, one for horses, one for werebeasts, etc. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 16:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::If we do that for every creature in the sprite sheet, that's not much different (in terms of copyright) from uploading the entire sprite sheet. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:09, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::Is there someone we can talk to about that? We finally get this new game with graphics, and then we can't use the very graphics of the game? No matter what the rules are, I'd say that would be the stupidest thing ever. I know I'm infamous here when it comes to copyright and images and stuff, but about 80% of game wikis out there are completely unofficial, and use game file images like no one's business. I can't imagine anyone's door being knocked on if we used the game's sprites, but I won't add any here until we have a go-ahead. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 17:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::...I've made noise in Mayday's direction on this matter, at least (prob an incorrect maneuver, ''but'').[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 17:55, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: I hope some sort of arrangement can be made so we can use the new sprites with permission/limits, just as we are using the raw files. Otherwise we are all (devs and editors alike) shooting ourselves in the foot here.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::I just thought of something. We're supposedly not allowed to upload entire sprite sheets, right? What if - for the time being - we just use a few of them for the purpose of testing out new infoboxes? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 21:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::I don't know. If someone could ask Kitfox and post the response here, that would be great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::::I've reached out to Alexandra, but she hasn't answered yet. Until then I found these old approvals from the previous community manager, Feeona: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8243633#msg8243633 link1], [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=176640.msg8243642#msg8243642 link2]). Waiting for a newer response until we begin mass uploads is probably the politer option, but like Zippy said, it is also standard for wikis to use game sprites with less approval. I second their idea of trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. On the extreme off-chance (and I do think it is) Kitfox protests we can always remove these few. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:19, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::And here is a third, more official statement: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8249718#msg8249718 link3]). Perhaps that address of info@kitfoxgames.com is the better channel to ask for a confirmation, rather than Discord DMs, but I will be going to bed, so it is best if someone else does that. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::Thanks for tracking this down! Ok, sprites should be fine, but let's avoid uploading the entire premium tileset as a single image, for instance (as the forum thread says, "use common sense"). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::: Looks good, permission is always preferable over fairuse, I think it is a win win for all involved. I agree that we shouldn't upload entire sprite sheets (e.g. there is no reason to upload the windmill from every direction or whole construction phase for workshops) and that there are a lot of details that needs to be ironed out through testing. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 05:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::We have a green light on uploading all and any sprites. Their response to me can be seen [https://i.imgur.com/BhmHjzC.png here]. I'm sure someone else confirmed it before me. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:00, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Shifting temporarily to a new issue, is the documentation of [[Template:ArticleVersion]] outdated? It would seem so to me, since the current version no longer has its own namespace, with the templates needing updating being different ones. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 18:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:I think it is still accurate enough. We left open the possibility of making another namespace in the future, albeit with a different migration strategy - see [[#v50 organization|above]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Some Changes to infoboxes might be needed. Too bad [[User:Doorkeeper]] isn't around. He did a great work with navbox project--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:52, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

I just realized that raw files aren't stored as regular wiki pages but loaded via the DFRawFunctions extension (hence the need to update). Good news it's going to be handled in bulk, consistently and relatively easy to updated. Even better it's Lethosor problem ;) Also I just realized that all the "raw files" (txt files in the new vanilla folder) are released into the public domain. Both are probably not news to the vets but I'll leave it here for those who less up to date like myself. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:35, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: I noticed that some templates aren't working properly in the new namespace, e.g. [[Basalt]] entry had its raw updated manually but the infobox fail to show any details. Cursory look suggest {{t|layerlookup/0}} need a minor tweak. This should do the work
:: Replace: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
:: With___: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{</nowiki>:<nowiki>{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
: Not sure what the plan and ETA with raws update so I didn't touch this high usage template for now. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 08:11, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

::Please do feel free to make this update. I am still working on a script to create the <code>/raw</code> pages themselves. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be an idea to add to the Sitenotice to remove the {{tl|migrated article}} tag when an article has been fully updated? I see many articles that seem to be updated still have the tag. And/or advise to make use of the {{tl|verify}} for sections still in need of checking? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 10:12, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:Probably a good shout. The "see this page" link does include the detail on removing but we should more explicitly encourage removing the banner once a page has at least been looked over. [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:01, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

== v50 specific issues ==
=== Graphics===
Follow up on the use of game sprites and the need to trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. First sprite [[:File:Beds v50.png]] was uploaded and used on [[Bed]] entry. Any thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Seems like it should be rearranged to be horizontal. Also, has there been a serious discussion about copyright? Full screenshots are 100% fine, but you start going into a grey area when you upload pieces of a spritesheet. I'm of the opinion that it's all fine as long as it's inconvenient to reconstruct the full sheet from the individual images. Maybe a further restriction could be you shouldn't upload any of the art unless it's used in an infobox (maybe an exception for pieces of the UI). And one more restriction could be you shouldn't show everything, like in your bed example, maybe just the wooden bed is good enough, leave out the stone and metal, especially since those can only be made from strange moods. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:43, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::Actually, your bed image is kinda bad for showing off what a bed looks like because it doesn't show the pillow/blankets. That might point to cropped screenshots being the best path, although less convenient for the uploader, as you don't get details left out. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:46, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::I created a new license template [[Template:Copyright game]], based it on the way the RimWorld wiki does things. Call it a prototype, but it's probably how your bed image should be labelled. Indeed, I added it to it already. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]])

::: I agree that the horizontal arrangement would suit better here and that we should strive to represent how things look in-game. Otherwise, I am not too concerned about people being able to reconstruct anything (lets just say that ''anyone'' interested in that can get the real thing from the game files), also it seem we have permission to use the sprits on top of fairuse. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 19:55, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

::: Modifying the existing template to allow the inclusion of the new sprites is easy (Something like [https://ibb.co/zFXCrjd this]?) The big question is the matter of consistency is there any exceptions that will break the format (size wise with variant bloat for example), the sprite naming format, etc --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:44, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::: If we are going to show a variant for each material type, then maybe these should be added as separate images so we can add a tooltip for each image. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:49, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

:I've got another prototype going here and here: [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]] and [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox]]. (You'll need to add the css stuff to your own /vector.css). Basically it's a way to recolor images using css classes. No idea if there's a better way. Also, the real implementation would require a change to [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Should mention, there ''is'' a different way, just upload each image 16 times, one for each coloring. But maybe that's not very elegant. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:45, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

: It should be noted that soon the classic edition will be released, hence one should plan to have both the Premium and classic alongside in that little space --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:14, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm looking into a tab extension to potentially support this in infoboxes. Perhaps [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Tabs Extension:Tabs]? I tried [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TabberNeue Extension:TabberNeue], but it displays a placeholder if JavaScript is disabled, which isn't great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: The Neue Tabber seem to works pretty much like the old one (which fandom [https://coding-help.fandom.com/wiki/Tabber#Adding_images_into_tabbers still use]) defaulting to showing the first tab only. Quick look suggest that neue work the same, plus the notice that 'Tabber requires Javascript to function' warning? if so, and if it is a bother, then you should be able to edit out the tabberneue-noscript string in code. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:29, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: I much prefer your tabber solution, but if that fails we can also use the gallery slideshow mode. If so, beware it has no way to control image size so the images have to be maliciously uploaded using the exact same size. example:
<gallery mode="slideshow">
File:SteelSample.png
File:TinSample.png
File:ZincSample.png
File:GoldSample.png
</gallery> --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

==== adding premium set to Infobox ====
I am unclear where are we going with this? 
1) Will (A) tabs be implemented, (B) we be using mediawiki toggle [[Template_talk:V50_workshop|example]] for premium and classic/blocked, (c) put images side by side, or (d) something else? 
2) Also [[silver]] and [[Pig iron]] use very different image style for example. 
3) Anything else you want ? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

: Personally, I would love tabs to be implemented, but I think that side by side might be best for most. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
: Here is rough layout we can use. It should fit most buildings given the default sprite size. There is also a different floor plan for both (inspired by reddit)

{|
|- valign=top
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 5×5
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>
|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|colspan=2|<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">
[[File:Siege workshop.png|center|160px]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab"">
{|
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%; font-size: 125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Siege workshop}}</center>
|style="line-height: 1em; font-size: 125%;"|
{| style="border-spacing:4px;"
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 3×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|colspan=2 style="text-align: right;"|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="float:left; border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%;"|
<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">[[File:Carpenter's workshop.png]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab""><center>
{| style="font-size: 175%; border-spacing: 0; background-color: black; border: 2px solid black"
|- 
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|"|7:0:0}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|{{=}}|6:0:0}}
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|]|0:0:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
|}</center></div>
|
{| style="border-spacing:5px;"
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×1
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:Screw_press.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Screw press}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Screw press}}</center>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:water_wheel.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Water wheel}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;line-height:normal;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Water wheel}}</center>
|}
|}
:Any thoughts on the direction and or any and all of its elements? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:16, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

::I kind of like side-by-side, if it fits. If anyone wants to implement a toggle button or tabs, I would ask that that be implemented in a template for now, so that e.g. we could change a toggle button to tabs in a single place if we decide to install an extension to support that. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

::: I noticed a comment saying that [[impassable tile]] are no longer used in v50, is that true for all constructions? If so, floor plans are no longer needed, making things much easier as we can fit everything in except the 5v5 constructions like trade depot (and even these can be placed one above the other if so desired). If not, any thought on the alternative floor plan design? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

:::: None of the constructions have blocking tiles any more from my experience playing. I haven't tested siege weaponry with that stuff, but none of the workshops have it, nor does any furniture. (walls and fortifications will of course obstruct movement [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 18:47, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
::::: Ok, I have removed them from v50. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I have added a basic side by side variant to [[Template:V50 workshop]] and [[Template:Building]] for testing, let us know if there any issues. Few notes:
* The default image naming scheme of <code>workshop-name.png</code> will likely conflict with existing images here or on commons, maybe another naming scheme should be used like <code>v50 workshop-name.png</code> as it is with ascii pictures.
* There is inconsistency in image size. If you want to use large zoomed images then toggle is best, otherwise they need to be all in native size (96px for 3x3).
* In the current version the code roughly centers the images and if there is a big image like with [[Siege workshop]] it drops to a new line --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

How about combining shortcut keys and the new menu icons:
<div style="color:white; font-size: large; text-shadow: -1px -1px 0 #000, 1px -1px 0 #000, -1px 1px 0 #000, 1px 1px 0 #000;">[[File:Ui b.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">b</div>[[File:Ui bo.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">o</div>[[File:Ui bol.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div>[[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div></div>
--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 02:24, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

:I worry that this is difficult to read (I read it as "boil" at first). I would rather use something like {{tl|k}} with a known background. What about something like this? [[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:0px;">{{k|l}}</div> or, alternatively, using flexbox without any overlap: [[File:Ui boll.png]]{{k|l}} —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:37, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Same, but that is the best I came up with. We can use the key or maybe someone can help improve the design. Also 'l' is hard to read even with {{t|key}}.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:05, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: I added a {{t|Menu icon}} to start things so others can have a go with it. Also any thoughts on the icon naming convention (their shortcut sequence), is there easier/better way? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:36, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::[[User:BarelyCreative]] updated the template: {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y}}. I think it looks good, thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::I like that, yeah. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::There were some places where it didn't make sense so display every icon all the time (like step-by-step guides), so I changed it slightly to allow display of fewer icons using "num" and counting from the end: <nowiki>{{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-;|num=2}}</nowiki> {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-|num=2}} [[User:BarelyCreative|BarelyCreative]] ([[User talk:BarelyCreative|talk]]) 09:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

==== Bizarre palette-swapping idea/prototype ====
No idea if this is a good idea, since it takes a bit of time to set up, and there might be some performance issues... and maybe display issues?

But take a look at this:
{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=amber}}

It's way to swap palettes on an image, although the image itself is a table, with each cell representing a pixel. The template itself looks like this:
<code><nowiki>{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=saffron}}</nowiki></code>
Input the pattern and desired palette name.

I've got a larger showcase here: [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase]]. Only did a rock pattern so far, but all palettes are implemented.
The major use for this would be on each stone, metal, wood, etc. type's page. The palette could be read directly from the raws. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 03:22, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

:From a technical perspective, my primary concern is indeed performance. Both on the server side and client side, a large number of tables that large (in terms of markup and cell count, that is) tend to be resource-intensive to generate and render. I saw your image-filtering experiments on [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]], and while that strikes me as a newer and less-backwards-compatible approach, it would probably be more resource-friendly.
:Is this color adjustment something the game is doing natively? i.e. does this accurately match what the game displays? I bet we could slap together an image-filtering extension (or find an existing one?) that can do this if needed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::Yeah that's what I suspected. The images the template creates are spot on, checked it against a screenshot I took of some mica rocks in-game. The css stuff is unfortunately totally incorrect, was cool to learn about it though, so not a complete waste of my time :p. The premium, in-game graphics are true sprites, basically patterns of indexed colors. Each of the in-game colors (which are significantly expanded over the 16 ascii colors, there's 116/117) there is a palette defined in "\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_descriptors_graphics\graphics\images\palettes.png". Each indexed color of the sprite is swapped for the corresponding color in the palette. Because of that, the css stuff doesn't work since it's doing the hue/saturation/brightness changes to the entire sprite.
::I've looked into an existing mediawiki extension, couldn't find anything. One thing I did't really look at is some type of lua script/module that would basically emulate what the game is doing. So some function that takes in the base image as well as the desired palette, and based on that finds and replaces each color. No idea what mediawiki's capabilities are on that front. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 05:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
:::We do have Scribunto installed now, so it's totally possible to do something in Lua too - forgot about that. I can add you to the group that grants access to edit the Module namespace if you want to give that a shot. If we use an extension, we'd probably need a custom one, similar to DFDiagram (or perhaps DFDiagram could be extended - it's in dire need of a rewrite anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:43, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::::I asked around on the mediawiki irc, I think scribunto/lua is a deadend, at least for taking an uploaded image and doing stuff to it with a lua script. However I did come up with this even more bizarre solution, using block elements. [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase2]], maybe less resource intensive? Definitely displays a lot worse though, probably unusable.
::::{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock2|palette-name=saffron}}
::::I dunno, maybe none of this is worth it and we should just write some external program to put all the images together offline, and then just mass upload. It wouldn't be ''that'' many... [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 06:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

====Is there an easy way to just paste images from the clipboard?====

I use KDE spectacle to take screenshots straight to the clipboard (after cropping) -- is there an easy way to just paste (and auto-upload) an image into an article? It would make it a lot easier to contribute images. [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:35, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Unfortunately there is not. I would be open to a MediaWiki extension to support this if someone finds one. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Looks like this could do it, but I haven't used it before: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SimpleBatchUpload [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 19:41, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::: It won't solve paste-from-clipboard, but this would be great for making uploading sprites much easier (auto-cutup spritesheet, rename, bulk upload). Could you add this, Lethosor? [[User:OddballJoe|OddballJoe]] ([[User talk:OddballJoe|talk]]) 21:47, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

====Standards for adding graphical version screenshots and images====

Hello, new user looking into adding imagery from the new version. Is there a standard for quality of new screenshots or images? I noticed that at a certain zoom level (2 zooms in from the furthest zoomed-out view), the graphics appear crisp and 1:1 pixel scaled, and I would propose that all images be taken at this scale whenever possible. If they need to be displayed larger, they should be nearest neighbor scaled in a photo editing program at 100% increments (Microsoft Paint will do this if you first select the image rather than directly scaling the whole canvas). I would also propose that images should be cropped to conform to the 32x32 pixel grid when possible, though this could be problematic with so many new graphical elements exceeding the bounds of their tiles. I would say the best practice for capturing artwork for items, furniture etc. ought to be done in a 3x3 open area to avoid shadows from nearby walls, or else extracted from the raw files (if this doesn't run afoul of being able to re-create the graphical version using those assets).

I know that perfect is the enemy of good, and any documentation is better than none, but just thought I'd ask about this, and see if/where something like this ought to be posted. [[User:Unclesporky|Unclesporky]] ([[User talk:Unclesporky|talk]]) 13:58, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:It has been stated in [[Template:V50 workshop]] that <q>screenshots should be at the "native" resolution</q> but someone could edit the [[Screenshot]] page for best practice for the steam version. Or post some examples in [[Talk:Screenshot]] to find out what is best? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:21, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

====How would I/should I go about putting creature sprites on their pages?====

Howdy. New player and wiki user here. I wanted to try and help update the wiki to the Steam release of DF, so I figured I'd chip in by putting each creature's sprites on their respective page, since I'll often look up a creature I have yet to see in game only to be met by a blue J, or whatever. I found all of the game's creature sprites in C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_creatures_graphics\graphics\images, so I figured I could just chop those up in Photoshop and stick them on here no problem, but the programming syntax/whatever it is on this site is incredibly confusing, I don't know how I'd actually go about doing it. I figured I'd just find the spot on the page where the little letter is and replace that with the image code, but it seems the pages are built using heavily nested templates that I can't even begin to understand. Any help?--[[User:Treese|Treese]] ([[User talk:Treese|talk]]) 03:07, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:Based on [[User:Zippy|Zippy]]'s work at {{tl|Creaturelookup_b}}, I added an "image" parameter to {{tl|creaturelookup/0}}, which is what creature pages should all be using. See [[Dwarf]] and [[Cow]] for examples. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:37, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Hotkeys/Menu navigation ===
Most key bindings and menus have changed. Should the article reflect a) only the old version, b) only the GUI version or c) both? For example, [[Bridge|bridges]] used to be built via {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}, but now it's in Place strucutures {{k|b}} -> Constructions {{k|n}} -> Bridge {{k|b}}. What should be written in the article? Currently, it's {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}. I ''think'' it should be only b), but I am not sure if there will be differences regarding hotkeys or menus between the premium version and the free version and then, c) would be the most appropriate option. --[[User:Prometherus|Prometherus]] ([[User talk:Prometherus|talk]]) 10:16, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: Not sure. I wish the classic release soon --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 16:45, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: Are you Toady's herald? Looks like it was just released! [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:18, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: And our questions are answered, the old hotkeys seem to have been thrown out. Part of me is disappointed (useless muscle memory) but also relieved (unified UI for both versions is good in general and for the wiki). [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:25, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: According to info, in a sort of 'demo version' at that. I'll wait a little while longer, for myself.[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::::It's unlikely that keybindings in it will change significantly. My vote is that we should include information for both premium and classic, everywhere. Hopefully the keybindings are not different between versions. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:26, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::Shouldn't it be based on the 50 or what verion the article is written for? [[User:Dominick|Dominick]] [[User_talk:dominick|(TALK)]] 18:42, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::: The keybindings seem to be consistent between versions, (haven't checked exhausitvely, but since the menu layout is the same I think it is a good assumption). Should also keep in mind/consider that not all actions have keybindings. An option would be write 'Click on the <Example Text> icon or press {{k|E}}' [[User:Koos|Koos]] ([[User talk:Koos|talk]]) 23:14, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

=== Removed features & concepts ===

Since they're removed concepts, I've set [[Room]] to be a redirect for [[DF2014:Room]] and created [[Template:Activity zones]] for the nav bar bedrooms, etc, and made the necessary changes to [[Bedroom]] for it. Is this the correct approach, before I go on much further? (also a note, if it is, then [[Template:v50_rooms]] probably needs to be deleted) I also imagine that considering the number of changes in the interface, that things like [[Adventure mode]] and related pages might best be truncated to "not in 50.03" and when it does make it across, being more deliberately brought over in pieces? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 06:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:Usually it is marked with [[Template:Removed_feature]]. For example: [[Dipscript]] or [[Party]]. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:45, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:: Ah, that's fair. Should that be mentioned in [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Versions#Redirects]]? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 10:03, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::I think the redirect policy mostly had in mind things that were removed a ''long'' time ago, like [[Tax collector]] and [[Economy]] (and the latter actually has a stub page as well). I guess we could clarify. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:34, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: The "current" redirects also cause the version box to incorrectly show that the current version has a page - e.g. [[23a:Cave_river]] shows a v50.04 version, but it's just a redirect back to that version. Similarly, what should happen to redirects like [[Clothes maker]], where a concept has evolved? It currently goes to [[23a:Clothes maker]] - that's correct if the user is trying to look up a very old concept, but if a new user is looking for "how to make clothes", they should be directed to [[Clothier]]. --[[User:Danny252|Danny252]] ([[User talk:Danny252|talk]]) 12:16, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: One should be careful with cv redirects. Most that were recently adjusted were unused plural forms (that should probably be deleted) but few like [[Crown]] needed that for backward compatibility. Removing the [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&type=revision&diff=279966&oldid=219482 cv part] means the the link on [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is now broken. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 22:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::If [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is about v0.31, it should not be using "main:" in its links - ''all'' of those links are going to pages about v50, not v0.31, regardless of whether the target is a redirect or not. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:37, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: You right, I removed it. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 17:55, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Crown cv redir issue is now fixed, I believe. As goes with such cases where one can simply revert the troublesome edit, unless I've mistepped, myself? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 23:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:Both [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=280026] and [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=279966] should not have had any effect, because "cv" is an alias to the main namespace now, just like "main". Proof: [[Crown]], [[cv:Crown]], [[main:Crown]]. It's possible caching is coming into play here, although I purged the redirect cache after making that alias change earlier this month... —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:02, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

I think there have been some changes not captured, but as a newb, I'm afraid to edit the page(s). A good example is Strawberry. I'm playing the Steam version right now and Strawberry plants are "not relevant to brewing" in Labor > kitchen > veg / fruit / leaves. Unless I'm mistaken and need to process them? Another example is the trade caravan = it seems the 3 square pathing no longer happens; it's just yak(s). 12:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC) 12:29, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
:Strawberries should be brewable according to the Raws.
:Trade wagons has been modified in v50. The first wagons will arrive at the same time your fort is becoming a barony. Until then, it's only pack animals and stairs are indeed fine. The [[Trading]] page needs a huge rework anyway... I'll try to do that next week. --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

<s>As far as I can tell, none of the workshop buildings in v50 have blocking tiles any more. There's a comment to the like in data/vanilla/vanilla_buildings/objects/building_custom.txt that says this "[BLOCK:1:0:0:0] workbenches no longer block". Hesitant to update that template as I'm not sure if it's referenced for all of the old versions too. </s> [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 05:54, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
: A new template has been created: {{tl|V50 workshop}} --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::Thanks! In general, I would like to delegate the switching responsibility to the template (like how {{tl|creaturelookup/0}} works), but in cases where the parameters diverge significantly like with workshops, it could make sense to make an entirely new template. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

=== creature infobox prototype (moved) ===

Check it out, I made a temporary template and added it to the [[cow]]s page. Now it shows the sprites (but not the zombified versions yet). I wanted to show everyone a prototype of what v50 creature infoboxes should look like. Or at least something similar to it. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:11, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
:Hi, I'm new to editing wikis but I have done a bit of work with sprite sheets and I've been going through the DF data files to find the different graphics hoping to help with the animal pages. I've thrown together a template with grass and a few nature sprites (plants, a tree, and a rock) for size reference but I'm unsure how large the 'display' tiles in the middle of the template should be to suit all animals. I can see in the sprite sheets that some land animals have an adult and child sprite, so two tiles. Others have a male, female, and child, but after seeing you include the zombie cows I'm unsure if I should make it twice the size to add them too. Alternatively, I could grab some tiles from the haunted biomes for the zombie animals and make a separate template for a side-by-side comparison. Either way, let me know if this helps. I'd like to help with other graphics too as we add the premium tilesets but the animals seemed the easiest to tackle with me being new to wiki editing. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::@Zippy, I am a bit perplexed about the purple cows. Why do we need a zombified version of creatures on every page?
::@UristTheSeventh, we can use all the help. Maybe post an example, so that we can have something to compare and contrast.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::@Jan Here are the examples:
:::[[File:Creature template.png]] [[File:Armadillo.png]] [[File:Seagull.png]]
:::It'll need to be wider or arranged differently for different creatures with more that two sprites or for multi-tile creatures. I can also do an aquatic and air themed template for swimming and flying creatures. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::::Looks nice, like the metal template. There are several people working on updating the graphics you should talk more among yourselves. Best I can offer is that I width wise I am hoping to go up to 200px for infoboxes.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 01:13, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:::: We don't exactly ''need'' a zombie sprite on each page. I added it because it was... there. I was also hoping to get some opinions on it anyway since that infobox is a visual prototype, and not a final choice. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:28, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

===Furniture Infobox===
{{Quality|Unrated}}
{{v50_furniture|name=Bed
|graphic=[[File:bed_sprite_prototype.png]]
|tile=Θ|col=6:0:0
|wood=y
|rooms=
* [[Bedroom]]
* [[Barracks]]
* [[Dormitory]]
|value=10}}
I made a v50 furniture template prototype. I tested this on Firefox, Chrome and Microsoft Edge/Internet Explorer and it looks fine on all of them. I hope this is good enough to be the official thing, unless I'm missing something. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:28, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
{{clear}}

=== When do we remove the migration note on specific pages? ===

At what point can we remove the "this page was auto migrated from v47" warning? There are a bunch of small pages that are more or less accurate, if I've reviewed them, can I go ahead and remove the warning? [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Yes, feel free to remove it if you think all content is accurate. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Any info on fixing "creature description not found?" ===

I see this issue on most creature pages, it seems to be due to a lookup that's not currently functioning? Cows interestingly doesn't have this issue but I couldn't figure out how to recreate whatever fix it's editor did. --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 00:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:That is the missing raws issue described above. Cow was fixed by the addition of [[cow/raw]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:28, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::Ah makes sense, not fully used to the language of wikis yet so I read over it while looking. To put this bit of questioning to rest for any future readers, is it correct that it's fine to update any raws manually, though it will be done automatically at some point? --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 07:48, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Yes. I'm circling back to work on a script right now, so not much point in doing it if you're reading this. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::This should be fixed now. If you continue to see pages with problems, you can try [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Purge purging the cache]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:59, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Adventurer Mode related sections ===

The topic has already been discussed [[#Removed features & concepts|above]], but I don't see a clear line on what to do with article sections that mention Adventurer Mode. Like for example in [[Butcher#Adventurer_mode|Butcher]].

'''a) Truncate''' or '''b) leave in place with a mention''' that the mode is not yet present IG but will be added in a future update?

Personally I think option b) is better, because I think it's silly to undo some work just to reintroduce it a few weeks later, with the necessary corrections. Even if a copy/paste of a previous version takes ~15 seconds, considering the number of articles that need to be corrected, it would be a bit of a waste of time.--[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

== Toggleable image ==

Any objections/comments to using this template for now for toggling between classic and premium images? I'd probably rename it to "Template:Premium-classic thumb image". I'm sure someone can come up with a better UI eventually, but should be easy to migrate at that point. I also think we should use the same customtoggle class for this and for the infobox. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 23:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png
}}

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png|
caption=My caption|
width=100px
}}

:This looks nice to me! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

: Good initiative. From the top of my head:
:* I suggest using a shorthand, no one wants to type 'Premium-classic thumb image'.
:* If we end up using toggle for infoboxes (not sure where we headed there), then I agree definitely same custom toggle class should be used for all, thus allowing to switch premium-classic view on the whole page at a click.
:* The button part on a separate row isn't pretty, creating a lot of dead space that can be used by the text. Are we set on the label 'toggle ascii'? Classic isn't Ascii per se, maybe we can use a 'toggle' with a tooltip {{tooltip|for example|does bla bla bla}}, or maybe we can get rid of the text and have a smaller icon button ([[User:Jan/sandbox#Metal_example|two examples]]).
: I hope that helps. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

:: I added [[Template:Dual image]] with some of your suggestions. Agree that it's not super pretty, feel free to try something different.

::* I put the toggle in the caption mostly because I gave up on trying to make a more sophisticated replacement for the default thumb image behavior, I'm sure someone with better wiki-fu could put together something more intelligent.
::* I cut the text down to just "Toggle"; I think the best solution would be a small graphic showing the old and new dwarf icons with arrows between them. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 19:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

{{Dual image|
premium=File:DFwiki5by53by3farm.png|
classic=File:Quickstart_layout_3.png|
width=100px|
caption=A 5x5 room with a 3x3 farm plot
}}
::: I updated the layout, now it should look just like a regular image thumb. I didn't had time to test it, if it doesn't work for you or you don't like it just revert the last change. cheers. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::::I don't know which part of this talk page to put this, but I added the ability to add icons to the v50 workshops template. Leaving the icon part blank will not break the template in any way. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 09:47, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
{{clear}}
==Creature List Now Supports Graphics!==
I wasn't easy, but I made new templates so the [[Creature]]s page now supports both graphics sprites ''and'' ASCII tiles. Allow me to show you:

{{v50_creaturecurrent_table_head}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:dwarf_sprite.png]]|name=[[Dwarf]]|symbol=☺|color=3:0:0|playable=Fort, Adv|hostile=No|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Mountain halls]], [[Fortress|dwarf fortress]]es, [[hillock]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:elf_sprite.png]]|name=[[Elf]]|symbol=e|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Forest retreat]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:human_sprite.png]]|name=[[Human]]|symbol=U|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=70,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Town]]s and cities|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:goblin_sprite.png]]|name=[[Goblin]]|symbol=g|color=7:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Dark fortress]]es and [[dark pit]]s|note=Snatchers2}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:kobold_sprite.png]]|name=[[Kobold]]|symbol=k|color=6:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=20,000|value=Not tameable|biome=Caves|note=Skulking race}}
|}

Oh wait, there's a bonus. You can also modify the background color of the box the sprites go in. I added that to make possibly-hard-to-see-otherwise sprites more easy to see - depending on the colors it has. Allow me to demonstrate.

{{v50_creaturecurrent_table_head}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:dwarf_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#829ccc|name=[[Dwarf]]|symbol=☺|color=3:0:0|playable=Fort, Adv|hostile=No|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Mountain halls]], [[Fortress|dwarf fortress]]es, [[hillock]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:elf_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#c7dfc0|name=[[Elf]]|symbol=e|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Forest retreat]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:human_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#c7dfc0|name=[[Human]]|symbol=U|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=70,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Town]]s and cities|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:goblin_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#dfc0c0|name=[[Goblin]]|symbol=g|color=7:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Dark fortress]]es and [[dark pit]]s|note=Snatchers2}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:kobold_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#dfc0c0|name=[[Kobold]]|symbol=k|color=6:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=20,000|value=Not tameable|biome=Caves|note=Skulking race}}
|}

To change the background color, add <code><nowiki>|bgcolor=COLOR</nowiki></code> segment after the <code><nowiki>|graphic</nowiki></code> part. You can use color names or HTML hex color codes. I added this to the v50 creatures page, but at this time, I only added the first five creatures I just displayed. It's gonna take a while to find ALL of those creature sprites. I hope a lot of people help out on that one. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 05:29, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

:Thanks, looks nice! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:44, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:Nice stuff, took the quick liberty to change the padding-left -> text-align to make all the sprites center aligned relative to each other :) Sweet work --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:41, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Good work indeed. One minor issue, is that all the sprites have different sizes, which sometimes create slight variation in table row height. Consider using capping the image size vertically for example <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px]]</nowiki></code>--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:15, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Also often in such tables people want to click on the image to go for the specific entry, and often will try to click on the very first thing they see in line the thumb image, but currently that will take them to the file page. Consider adding link parameter for example: <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=dwarf]]</nowiki></code> [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=dwarf]] or no link at all <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=]]</nowiki></code> [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=]] --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:24, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
::: I mean... Yeah, I could do that. I think that lessens the quality of the sprite a bit because it makes edges blurry, but either way is fine. I could have sworn I added a link for all those images the first time. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:23, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::::Since we are adding pixel art sprites to the website it might be convincing to add a global class like .sprite or .pixel-image that uses the CSS attribute `image-rendering: pixelated;` in order to prevent blurryness when scaling the image up/down. Just a thought --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 09:40, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::Are we able to attach classes directly to images? If so, we can probably attach inline styles directly as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:52, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::Looks like (without an extension) MediaWiki only supports classes on images: [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|class=pixelated]] and not styles: [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|style="image-rendering: pixelated;"]] it just treats it as alt text it looks like? Wrapping it in a div works and demonstrates the difference: <div style="image-rendering: pixelated;display:inline;">[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|64px]]</div> [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|64px|inline]]. Speaking from experience, however, image-rendering needs a browser specific prefix in certain browsers (safari, for example) in order to work properly. I'm not entirely sure what the best "MediaWiki" practice is for adding something like this but I would assume it's a simple class in common.css for now. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:17, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Ah, yeah, you are correct, I should have checked https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Images. I'd be fine adding a class like that to common.css. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:27, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Great, in that case if no one is opposed we can add `.game-sprite` or something like that? See below for the CSS, the order of the attributes is relevant. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 18:23, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
<pre>/* Used for pixel-art images from the game so they can be resized and maintain crisp pixel edges. */
.game-sprite {
image-rendering: -webkit-optimize-contrast;
image-rendering: crisp-edges;
image-rendering: pixelated;
}</pre>
:::::::::So... you guys think each creature page should show the main sprite(s) alone, or should it show the baby versions alongside them? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 08:37, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::I think adult + baby is sensible, the adult + baby + zombie was not, in retrospect. So yeah adult + baby (if there is one) from now on would be my vote. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 23:27, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
{{clear}}
=== Graphics in Skill Infoboxes ===
{{v50_skill
| color = 7:0
| graphic = [[File:miner_sprite_icon.png]]
| skill = Miner
| profession = Miner
| job name = [[Mining]]
| tasks =
* [[Dig]]
| attributes =
* Strength
* Toughness
* Endurance
* Willpower
* Spatial Sense
* Kinesthetic Sense}}I've made yet another visual prototype for skills. In other words, we can put sprites of matching dwarves (and possibly humans, elves, goblins, etc.) at the top of infoboxes. If multiple images are put up there, that can mess up the alignment, but don't worry, Zippy thought of that. <code><nowiki>|graphicmargin</nowiki></code> can added, and a percentage or a "px" number can be placed in that parameter to fix it. If you leave said parameter out, the alignment will default to about 42% from the left. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 06:06, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
<pre><nowiki>
{{v50_skill
| color = 7:0
| graphic = [[File:miner_sprite_icon.png]]
| graphicmargin = (OPTIONAL)
| skill = Miner
| profession = Miner
| job name = [[Mining]]
| tasks =
* [[Dig]]
| attributes =
* Strength
* Toughness
* Endurance
* Willpower
* Spatial Sense
* Kinesthetic Sense}}
</nowiki></pre>
::Not sure I understand the alignment issue, can you not put text-align: center on the parent table element instead of messing with explicit margins? As another sidenote, should we continue to be naming all of these templates v50_x, I find that a bit confusing. Why not just edit the main templates with the additional information. Loving all the new templates though nice work Zippy :) --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:43, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
:::No, text-align doesn't work with images and divs. That just works for text. When it comes to images, you got to put a little "finesse" on the CSS with those. As for editing the classic templates with the new info, it doesn't always work that way with ''every'' template. Lethosor I think ''did'' update the creature infobox template in the way you mentioned. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 08:37, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
:::: You can use something like this to automatically handle that--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 08:56, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
{|
|-
|<div style="width:200px; display:flex; background-color:#eaecf0;">
[[File:miner_sprite_icon.png|center]]
<div>
|<div style="width:200px; display:flex; background-color:#eaecf0;">
[[File:miner_sprite_icon.png|center]] [[File:miner_sprite_icon.png|center]]
<div>
|<div style="width:200px; display:flex; background-color:#eaecf0;">
[[File:miner_sprite_icon.png|center]] [[File:miner_sprite_icon.png|center]] [[File:miner_sprite_icon.png|center]]
<div>
|}
:::::Hah I am very familar with the CSS finese :P Can you show me an example of a multi-sprite job infobox? I said what I said because I tested my proposed solution and it worked fine :)

Garbage disposal

2023-01-08T12:48:13Z

Vallode: Looks up to date

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''Were you looking for ways to get rid of [[nobles]], [[elves]], or [[animal dissector]]s? Check the [[trap design]] article.''

A '''garbage disposal''' is any convenient mechanism to quickly (and, preferably, automatically) dispose of the ever-growing mounds of trash produced by a successful fortress. Trash includes [[vermin]] remains, spoiled [[food]], excessively [[wear|worn]] clothing and goods, stray [[Creature|animal]] [[corpse]]s and unusable byproducts, and the remains of [[invader]]s who foolishly attack your fortress. Note that, if you choose to dispose of your citizens' corpses in the same manner, you will need to prepare [[memorial]]s to avoid [[ghost]]s and unhappy [[thought]]s.

Properly disposing of trash is necessary to keep your fortress neat, your dwarves happy, and your [[Frames per second|framerate]] high. When disposing of [[clothing]] and goods, [[Item quality|masterwork]] items will cause an unhappy thought in the minds of their creators. This can be avoided by trading those items to a passing [[Trading#Caravans|caravan]].

==Refuse stockpile==

The basic disposal method is a refuse [[stockpile]]. Trash placed in a stockpile with refuse enabled will [[wear|degrade]] over time, and most items will rot away eventually. A simple refuse stockpile is generally sufficient for a small fortress, though disposal needs grow significantly as fortress size increases. Once your stockpile becomes full, trash will accumulate in your fortress hallways until you resolve the problem. An overtaxed refuse pile is frequently signaled by clouds of [[miasma]].

==Landfill==

Combining your refuse stockpile with a [[Exploit#Quantum_stockpiles|quantum stockpile]] allows your dwarves to stack infinitely many items in a single tile. If that tile is also a refuse stockpile, your trash will continue to degrade and disappear over time. While this design takes care of the problem of refuse stockpile space, it does not reduce the game's item count nearly as quickly as the disposal methods below.

==Pulverizer==

A [[dwarven atom smasher]] can pulverize any amount of trash instantly. Initial designs are often manual (using a garbage dump [[Activity zone|zone]] and the [[Garbage_dump|dump]] command), however when combined with a quantum stockpile, your dwarves will automatically dump their garbage into a pit for easy disposal. The atom smasher can be operated manually, or automated with a [[repeater]]. Be warned that an atom smasher is capable of tossing trash back up several [[z-level]]s and injuring dwarves above; for safety, a garbage chute spanning two or more z-levels should be employed, especially if the atom smasher is automated.

==Incinerator==

A small pool of [[magma]] can conveniently incinerate most garbage, including corpses. This system can be manually operated (via a garbage dump zone) or automated (via a quantum stockpile). It is highly recommended to locate the magma at least three [[z-level]]s below the dump location (to avoid deadly [[magma mist]]). If you pipe your garbage chute down to the [[magma sea]], even [[magma-safe]] items can be disposed of with ease.

==See also==
*[[Garbage dump]]
{{Category|Design}}

[[ru:Garbage disposal]]

Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions

2023-01-08T09:35:56Z

Vallode:

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# [[DF Talk:Versions/Archive 1|Page 1]]}}

== Version 0.31.19 starts a new DF generation? ==

My reading of Toady's comments on the release of 0.31.19 is that it came out basically because he felt it would take too long to get DF all the way to 0.32. With the ore changes, the sitefinder changes, the addition of grazing and several different industries, there's a lot of changes between 31.18 and 31.19. So I'm thinking it might be a good idea to call it the first release of DF2011 - and what we refer to as "DF2010" would then become 0.31.18.

Thoughts? --[[User:DeMatt|DeMatt]] 07:06, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

==Revisiting Redirects==
I wasn't around when the redirect policy was created, and I'm having trouble understanding the rationale. The example claims that linking [[Main:Cheese]] to [[cv:Cheese maker]] is problematic...but mainspace only ever redirects to the current version. If the best target in the current version is cheese maker, why not link to it directly? (It's not, at least for Cheese, since [[DF2012:Cheese]] exists now.) The explanation seems to be claiming that 40d articles that link to Cheese will follow the Mainspace link--but that hasn't been the case for a long while now. Articles in 40d automatically link against other articles in 40d, so that version remains internally consistent no matter where mainspace links to in the current version. For a current example, what do we gain by linking [[Main:Mead]] to [[cv:Mead]] and linking [[DF2012:Mead]] to [[DF2012:Alcohol]]?

If this really is just an outdated procedure, I recommend we drop the mummery and allow mainspace to link to cv:(best target). Double redirects ''may'' work (sometimes, but [[Main:Mead]] demonstrates a common problem where automatic redirection fails), but if they are unnecessary I think they should be avoided, partly because of problems like [[Main:Mead]] and partly because of the effort required to protect double redirects from users who believe they are problematic.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:16, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

:I was just thinking that. I'm currently attempting to write a basic extension to eliminate the need for mainspace redirects entirely, although Mediawiki's class structure may make this more difficult than I had hoped (the only method I've found for resolving redirects takes the ''article text'' instead of a title, e.g. "#REDIRECT ..."). I do agree that the current situation with redirects isn't ideal, so I'm hoping this will work better (once I get it to work). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:42, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Okay, that wasn't quite as clear as I meant it to be. In general, I think this is a tricky situation. Mediawiki wasn't designed to have five content namespaces, and certainly not chains of redirects between them. The problem that was pointed out in the [[DF:REDIR|policy]] is the fact that with:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
pages in the cv: namespace can't use [[<nowiki/>foo]], since the namespace links modification causes it to be treated as [[<nowiki/>cv:foo]] instead, which doesn't exist. The current suggested solution is this:
Main:Foo -> cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
This fixes the problem of [[<nowiki/>foo]] not working on cv pages, but creates issues with double redirects not always working. Another solution, which is more intuitive to new editors, is:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
Both require creating two redirects. The first method has the advantage of ''ensuring'' that the cv redirect exists (otherwise, main:foo would be a redlink), while the second has the advantage of working more reliably in a couple cases.

What I'm trying to do is make main:Foo "jump" to cv:Foo when cv:foo exists, ''even if main:foo doesn't exist'' (basically it would treat all mainspace pages as redirects to cv pages, but only if the cv page exists and not the mainspace page). I had main:Bar jumping to cv:Bar fine, but if cv:Foo redirected to cv:Bar, accessing main:Foo would mysteriously stop at cv:Foo even if I increased the redirect limit. What I'm trying to do now is follow the redirects internally, without relying on Mediawiki to do it automatically - unfortunately, that has proved to be harder than I had hoped (and I sent my web server into an infinite loop while trying). I will try to work on this some more when I get a chance, although I'm not sure when that'll be yet :(. For now, feel free to fix broken double mainspace redirects as necessary, as long as redirects in the DF2012 namespace stay pointing to the right page (and new mainspace redirects get added in the DF2012 namespace too). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

:You're treating cv like a namespace--it's not. It is simply shorthand for "fill in the current version here". [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Briess&diff=182404&oldid=181281 As I discovered a long time ago on a server not far away], linking from Main:Foo to cv:Foo tends to break redirection chains. If, instead of linking to cv:Foo, you link to DF2012:Foo, it might just work. It would, of course, be better if your patch could evaluate cv itself, but even if you have to hardcode the current version it's a single point of maintenance that requires update very infrequently. (For that matter, we could probably dispense with the cv hack entirely and just have a bot update mainspace links from DF2012 to DF201X when we switch to a new version.)--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:05, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
::I know cv isn't a namespace - I was just trying to avoid future confusion when the DF2012 namespace changes. It's interesting that changing "cv" to "DF2012" fixes some broken redirects, although I've found that simply making an edit to a broken redirect can usually fix it as well. I've actually had the most problems with double redirects when the second one (in the DF2012 namespace) doesn't use the DF2012 prefix (e.g. main:Foo containing <nowiki>[[cv:Foo]] and DF2012:Foo containing [[Bar]]</nowiki>). I'd rather keep the cv alias even if it isn't necessary for mainspace redirects when I get the patch to work, since it makes it easier to refer to the current version of the page (for example, several MDF articles contain links to a vanilla page for things that don't change in the mod).
::Also, using aliases like "cv" is supported by Mediawiki; in fact, several WMF wikis use them (for example, "[[wikipedia:WP:Redirects|WP:Redirects]]" on Wikipedia). It's quite likely that Mediawiki isn't processing double redirects using aliases correctly, though, since that's uncommon on most wikis. --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:35, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

In light of the lack of support for the current redirect policy, I propose we replace the current redirect section with:

:Mainspace article pages should use the cv: alias when redirecting to a versioned page, which will automatically update the link when a new version is released. For example, page "Main:Foo" should redirect to page "cv:Bar" (where "Bar" is the page that best describes the topic Foo in the current version).

:Pages in mainspace should only redirect to an older versioned page if that content no longer exists in the current version of the game (e.g. [[Cave river]], [[Chunk]]). In these cases the cv: alias cannot be used.

:Pages inside a versioned namespace should not use the cv: alias. Instead, they should redirect to the best page within that versioned namespace (e.g. [[DF2012:Dodging]], [[v0.31:Drink]]).

:Due to limitations of the wiki software, double redirects should be avoided if possible. When fixing double redirects in mainspace, please make sure to use the cv: alias as appropriate.

If no one objects, I will make this change in a few days.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:21, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

:Okay with me. It may be worth mentioning that double redirects only really need to be changed when they don't work (since changing a lot of redirects that work isn't necessary), but I think it's clearer and more relevant than the current policy. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Done.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:55, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I was finally able to get my extension to work after being motivated by one too many malfunctioning redirects. It now causes nonexistent pages in the main namespace to behave exactly like redirects to their DF2012 counterparts (when linked to, accessed directly, and transcluded). Double redirects also work (up to 100, in fact, although that was a temporary safety measure that I'll probably change). This means we'll be able to safely get rid of all mainspace redirects (redirects that redirect to something other than "cv" will still function if not deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:20, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
:What about articles which don't exist in the current version but do exist in older versions? Will those still need mainspace redirects, or will your extension be able to automatically redirect them to v0.31/40d/23a? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] ([[User talk:Quietust|talk]]) 01:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
::It ignores all mainspace pages that actually have content, including redirects, so pages like [[masons guild]] won't be affected (unless deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:47, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Done and deployed. [[Cat]] is still treated as a redirect, even though I just deleted it (try clicking on the "redirected from" link). Pages that exist are ignored, so [[Masons guild]] and [[History of Dwarf Fortress]] still function normally (as a redirect to a 23a page and a non-redirect, respectively). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm sending around a bot right now to delete all redirects of the format "foo -> cv:foo" (a surprising number don't fit this format, so I'm leaving them alone for now). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:43, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

:I'm confused. Do we use double redirects or not? Is there a single place we define our linking policy (including redirects), and is it updated?
:I had trouble linking to [[Consolidated_development]] in [[v0.34:Dragon]]. It kept pointing to v0.34:Consolidated_development, which does not exist. I ended up linking to Main:Consolidated_development to make it work. --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] ([[User talk:Nahno|talk]]) 10:18, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

::That's a separate problem altogether - links in the versioned namespaces (v0.34, v0.31, 40d, 23a) automatically link to pages within their namespace. I may be able to set up a fallback to mainspace once I'm able to deploy again, but for now the "main:" alias is the intended solution. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 11:36, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

== Google often directs people to the 0.31 page ==

I've noticed a couple of times that finding a wiki page from an external search will often drop me onto a page from an older version. Is it possible to mitigate this somehow for new players? I could imagine something like redirecting old:Bar -> cv:Bar unless the user has come from old:Foo; no idea if that would actually work though. [[User:PeridexisErrant|PeridexisErrant]] ([[User talk:PeridexisErrant|talk]]) 11:48, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

:As a temporary solution, I could write a script that displays a banner of some kind if the user came from an external site. I'll ask Briess if he can do anything on the server level to increase the weighting of the current version's pages. (Obviously there are situations where people are looking for old pages, like [[23a:dungeon master]], so we don't want to disable indexing entirely on old pages.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:03, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

== DF2014? ==

As Toady [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ draws closer to a new release], it might be worthwhile to discuss the addition of a new version to the wiki. The upcoming release covers two years of changes and introduces a number of new plants, foods, drinks, multi-tile trees, climbing, jumping, etc., so it is likely to have significant changes from the current DF2012. To avoid having people start new pages (and lose all the effort spent refining the prior version's page), I think it would be best to have a bot automatically copy over the DF2012 pages as a starting point for DF2014. I would suggest that these copied pages include a noticebox template mentioning that the content may be outdated, so that we can easily track which pages have been reviewed. I think either the {{tl|version check}} or {{tl|old}} template would work. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:43, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

:This is what [[User:QuietBot]] did after the 0.34 release, so it's certainly possible to use the same script to migrate to DF2014. I would like a way of tagging migrated pages, since inaccuracies in some pages went unnoticed for months after they were migrated. Since {{tl|old}} is already in use, {{tl|version check}} may be a better solution (it can be reworded slightly, or we can make a separate template for DF2014 migration). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:23, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
:Made [[Template:DF2014 migrated]] as an example. Any thoughts? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:32, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

== Redirects inconsistency ==

Following a redirect is supposed to be exactly the same as going straight to the page it redirects to, but this actually isn't the case:
* Go to [[Seeds]] and you get [[v0.34:Seed]] (outdated)
* Go to http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Seeds&redirect=no and click on the link and you get to [[DF2014:Seed]] (current)
So if you search for "seed", the top result is the DF2014 version. But search for "seeds" and you get the redirect, which sends you to the outdated page instead. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

While I'm talking about redirects, it seems redirects to sections don't work: see [[DF2014:How do I manage my seeds and crops]]. I know MediaWiki is capable of this trick because Wikipedia does it. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:32, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

:I have absolutely no idea why [[seeds]] redirects to a v0.34 page - it could be a Mediawiki bug. The section links issue is due to a known issue in the redirect extension we use, which has yet to be fixed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:01, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
:It looks like deleting both [[Seeds]] and [[DF2014:Seeds]] fixed things (by allowing AutoRedirect to handle the redirects instead). Feel free to tag any others with {{tl|bad redirect}}. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::It gets stranger. [[Vial]] redirects explicitly to [[cv:Flask]] which displays (when you look at it with &redirect=no) as [[DF2014:Flask]], but still goes to the v0.34 version. It seems redirects interpret the cv: pseudo-namespace (or whatever it's called) in an outdated way. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 18:08, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::I've added a note to this page about this issue. If it gets resolved, the note should be removed. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 21:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

==Reorganizing versions==

The internet deals with moved content... poorly. Google is still linking to v0.34 pages more than a year after the switch to "DF2014", and even the wiki software still has cached links pointing to the old version pages.

I propose reorganizing versions on the wiki to avoid moving content whenever possible. Instead of having a temporary "current version" namespace that changes occasionally, all the current information gets promoted to the Main namespace. When the next version split occurs, the Main articles as of a certain revision number can be copied to the newly-created permanent "old version" namespace, while all the current information remains in Main. This not only fixes the link rot issue, but it has a few other benefits as well: fewer administrative tasks, no lockdown (a historical version of the Main pages can be copied at any point, even if the Main articles are already modified for the new version), almost all the article history is maintained in the Main article (instead of being spread unevenly across multiple versions), no "temporary" namespaces are needed, fewer problematic long redirect chains, and hopefully less user confusion (since Main gets priority in search results, etc.).

As an example, today we would not have a DF2014 namespace (which is good because "temporary" namespaces historically disappear anyway). If you ran a search for [[seed]] you'd end up at Main:seed, which would have all the current information on seeds. The version box at the top of the page would still link to the older versions of the seed article. When a new version is released, an admin would choose a revision number and copy the Main:seed article as it exists at that revision number to v0.40:seed. That's it. One historical copy that needs little to no new editing, and zero redirections/moves.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:02, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

:Makes sense to me. It would involve a lot of work, though (e.g. fixing templates and categories to account for the current version being in mainspace), although that should be doable thanks to {{tl|category}}, {{tl|version switch}}, etc.. A bot could be set up to copy revisions from before a release date as well, which would be more difficult (and maybe slower) than a direct copy, but not severely. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:24, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

:Actually, there are a few issues with that, namely that there wouldn't be an easy way to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned mainspace pages. There are ways to resolve Google search priority (we can exclude pages from older versions from search engine results if there are newer versions of those pages available, for example). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:47, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::There aren't very many non-versioned mainspace pages, and determining if a page is versioned is as simple as looking for the version template and/or categories added by the version template (e.g. copy [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Category:Current this category] instead of Main:*). The problem with "suggesting" newer pages to Google is that they obviously aren't crawling our wiki regularly (if they were, the fact that the mainspace redirects point to new pages would automatically be picked up). Even if your Google hints worked they wouldn't do anything for all the other broken links out on the 'net.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:35, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: Google actually crawls the wiki constantly - we probably get crawl hits from google for a continuous block of 2-3 hours per day, each and every day. Why they are slow to update is beyond me though. I can't remember why we didn't do this initially, but there was a technical limitation involved if I remember correctly. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] ([[User talk:Briess|talk]]) 22:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: There are <meta> tags that can be used to hide pages from search results (for search engines that recognize them, that is). Searching for {{tl|av}} or [[:Category:Current]] might work, although we'd have to make sure all of the DF2014 pages include that (some pages don't, particularly some disambiguation pages, although all of them should). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:53, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

:Is there a particular reason main and current are separate to begin with?—[[User:CLA|CLA]] ([[User talk:CLA|talk]]) 00:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

::It's mostly intended to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned pages and make version-related templates simpler to work with, since every versioned page has a namespace. I wasn't active here in 2010 when this system was created, so Briess and Emi would know more.
::Another issue I just thought of with Loci's suggestion is categories - currently, categories like [[:Category:Animals]] are used to organize the versioned sub-categories. Sure, we can change {{tl|Category}} to categorize mainspace pages in [[:Category:v0.40:Animals]] or [[:Category:DF2014:Animals]], but that would be less straightforward because there wouldn't be a namespace with that name (until pages are migrated when a newer major version is released). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

:Moving current pages to the main namespace sounds like a great idea. -[[User:Jecowa|Jecowa]] ([[User talk:Jecowa|talk]]) 20:47, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Another thought: dealing with migrating redirects could be difficult with this proposal - specifically, determining which redirects should be migrated to a versioned namespace. Redirects can't contain {{tl|av}}, at least not before ``#REDIRECT``. I ''think'' it would be possible to copy pages in two stages, though - all non-redirects first, then all redirects whose targets were also copied. Thoughts? Anything I'm missing? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:41, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Some subpages (particularly /raw and /Edit notice) also deliberately lack {{tl|av}}, although those shouldn't be too hard to handle. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

:Redirect pages (and all other edge cases I've looked at) can be included in categories (like [[:Category:Current]]) to determine whether or not they should be copied into an archival version. But if the redirects are "properly qualified" then they can all be copied over blindly. Mainspace redirects pointing to versioned information should use a blank namespace (which will be automatically constrained to the archival namespace); mainspace redirects pointing to unversioned information should use an explicit "Main" (which will automatically link back to the unversioned page). Then, when [[[[Toady]]]] gets copied to [[[[v0.4x:Toady]]]] it will point back to [[[[Main:Toady One]]]]. Meanwhile, [[[[Beer]]]], copied to [[[[v0.4x:Beer]]]], will properly point to [[[[v0.4x:Alcohol]]]].--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:00, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

::I think qualifying redirects is the best solution here - categorizing redirects manually is another possible source of errors, since categories (or a lack thereof) would only be visible on the redirect page itself, and [[:Category:Current]] is a hidden category. Copying over mainspace redirects into versioned namespaces would also resolve some issues that have come up due to those not reliably existing currently. I should be able to set up a bot script to add "main:" to current mainspace redirects (and it shouldn't break anything, since those redirects go to other mainspace pages anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:57, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

(Note: I wrote all of this without noticing the previous discussion above.) I was wondering, when the wiki creates a new namespace for a major release again, if it is possible to ''not'' create a namespace for the next current version (e.g. "DF202x") and instead have the mainspace articles (which are currently redirects) become the new cv and move the content there. Therefore, [[cv:Cat]] would just be "[[Cat]]" (or [[Main:Cat]]).

Certain namespace-related templates like [[Template:Ns/0]] would need to be changed, though nothing significant as far as I know. For most cases, any "DF2014" would be replaced with "Main" or even blank. There's also multiple extensions handling the current namespace system and they may need to be modified too, though I'm not sure if or how much. I'm guessing based on the discussions above that it will change stuff up.

My reason is the current namespace is increasingly becoming more anachronistic. "DF2014" could be misinterpreted as "this page is about the 2014 version of the game" or "this page was last updated in 2014", which I've seen a few people in forums mention. Granted that [[Template:Av]] is on the top of very article, I still think the namespace is inconsistent with the recentness of the article. But how is this related to what I'm asking for? Let's say we continue the current system: if we happen to do a new namespace change this year and create DF2020, the next major release (after graphics/UI) will be mythgen, which is estimated to take several years to develop (the Big Wait), and so the anachronism will start over again. The proposed way will prevent this from occurring for the next major release and every release thereafter.

I think the confusion with having a namespace that becomes old-fashioned overtime supersedes the confusion with not marking current versioned articles with a namespace. Most users just search "Cat" on the search bar and naturally expect to get information about the latest release of DF. So if users go a page that's just titled "Cat", they won't expect outdated info about cats from a previous release. That's how the current system works anyways. We'll be skipping the two-step process that we have now. It'll make several wiki tasks much simpler as well. Editors can create new articles for current versions without remembering to add a namespace. It'll fix any existing issues with (double) redirects; instead of [[Main:Kitten]] redirecting to [[cv:Kitten]], which goes to [[DF2014:Kitten]], which then redirects to [[DF2014:Cat]], [[Main:Kitten]] would just redirect to [[Main:Cat]]. And the cv: alias will no longer be necessary since "cv:" = "Main:" and will be forever.

There's no need to differentiate the current version and previous versions with a namespace for the current version is what I'm saying. Articles of previous versions will retain their respective namespaces. Users will still type "40d:Cat" to go to the 40d version of the article, but if they want the current version, they'll just type "Cat" (like now). The mainspace containing the "live" version of an article is natural and would create no uncertainty when browsing the wiki. And it would simplify the wiki somewhat and future-proof this anachronism problem. As a bonus, this change will also prevent web search engines from showing previous version pages when typing "DF cat" or something. (This isn't happening right now as DF2014 has been the current namespace for ~6 years, but it'll happen again when everything moves to a new namespace.)

This is the gist of it, and I may have ignored most of the problems with this proposal. I have personally wished for the whole version namespacing be made less complicated and have been seeking for a solution, and I feel like this is the best way to go about in the future. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:27, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:<s>Whoops, looks like Loci already proposed this exact thing long ago. I definitely missed that discussion and should have checked first. My apologies. I'll move my text to that section and remove this one. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:36, 14 August 2020 (UTC)</s> Done. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:40, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:The main issue I have with that is that putting pages about the current version in a namespace also differentiates between those pages and pages not about ''any'' version (for example, [[Toady One]] does not need a 40d or v0.34 page). Yes, we can use {{tl|av}} to mark versioned pages, but people often forget to add that to new pages. The current system also allows determining whether a page is versioned or not from its title, which makes migrations a lot faster. Relying on {{tl|av}} would require either reading the content of every page (which would slow scripts down significantly) or cross-checking with the list of all pages including the template (feasible, but a bit more complicated, and still susceptible to missing templates). I suppose that manually fixing and migrating pages missing {{tl|av}} later wouldn't be too much work, though.
:I am definitely in favor of changing "DF2014" (or a new namespace) to "Current", though. I was in favor of "DF2014" in 2014, but I don't think it makes sense anymore, and "Current" seemed to be a popular alternative in both the DF2012 and DF2014 discussions on the matter. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

== Weird redirect behaviour ==

[[Pump stack]] redirects to [[cv:Screw pump#Pump stack]]. If you look at the redirect itself it says it redirects to DF2014 namespace, which is correct. But if you actually follow the redirect, it goes to v0.34 namespace. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 16:10, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
:Yeah, that's part of the issue described in the above section (the wiki caching part, not on Google's end.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:00, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

== v50 organization ==

Some wiki admins have had a talk on Discord and decided that the most sustainable path forward is to put content for all future versions of DF in the main namespace. We will be working on a bot to do this in the next few days. Feel free to chime in with suggestions here. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

:Is it maybe possible to do backwards-namespacing? Like we have a "Main" namespace, which people are free to update, and whenever there's a new version of DF the "Main" namespace is copied into a namespace for the then old version, much like how you'd branch a stable branch from a development branch when working with a git-project? [[User:Therahedwig|Therahedwig]] ([[User talk:Therahedwig|talk]]) 23:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

::Yeah, we could do that if we decide to. We were talking about doing that for v50, actually, and might still do something similar to preserve edit history if it doesn't end up being too hard to automate. Our hope is that we will not introduce new namespaces for v50 -> v5x, unless there is a serious breaking change (and hopefully there isn't one). But if we change our mind, one advantage of the type of migration you mentioned is that it can be done retroactively - we can copy historical revisions that were current at the time of the release, and would only lose some typo fixes made after the release that apply to earlier versions as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:11, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

ETA is < 24 hours. Doing some final checks on a migration script. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 07:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

: We should really have a task list as there are many things that change and need updating. Including but not limited to:
:* Most templates that used the previous namespace convention broke, including nav templates.
:* Many game files changed locations and their pages need to be updated.
:* Raws need to be updated.
:* Various features added, changed, removed.
:* UI has been changed -- though I am more inclined to wait for classic release to avoid extra work --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

"''Raws need to be updated.''" Including applying text wraparound where necessary, I suppose - more than a few of them have proven to be that special kind of...''difficult'' to navigate otherwise, shall we say? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 12:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:There is already a task list in the [[#v50 migration|section below]] that includes templates and raws, with an explanation. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

== v50 migration ==

The initial migration script is done. New content is in the '''main''' namespace, e.g. [[Cat]]. Old content is still at [[DF2014:Cat]]. History was migrated to the ''new'' (main namespace) articles.

I know several things are broken still. Please reply if you find any others:
<div style="border-left: 2px solid red">
* <s>Versioned templates haven't been migrated yet (e.g. {{tl|vermin}} on [[Ant]])</s>
** Fixed. Most were migrated by a bot.
* <s>Raws are missing on all pages that use them.</s>
** This also affects sidebars, such as on [[Cat]] and [[Microcline]].
** Update: The DFRawFunctions extension has been upgraded to include v50 raws, using the "v50:" prefix for filenames instead of "DF2014:". <s>I haven't finished a migration script to create the /raw pages themselves, but they can typically be created manually by copying the DF2014 /raw pages and changing "DF2014" to "v50" everywhere.</s> —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
** Update 2: Raws have been added for all pages! They were copied from the "DF2014" pages and had "DF2014" replaced with "v50", which appears to have worked from a spot-check, but let me know if you find any problems. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
* Some pages where the DF2014 page was a redirect to a main namespace page that contained content were migrated incorrectly.
** In this case, the main namespace page is usually a redirect to itself. This can be fixed by undoing LethosorBot's edit to the main namespace page, then copying the content to the DF2014 page.
** Update: most seem to have been fixed manually - thanks! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* <s>Some main-namespace talk pages redirect to DF2014 talk pages. Some of these redirects work, and some (usually older ones) do not.</s>
** Fixed with a bot. Some redirects from talk pages to other deleted talk pages are now broken, e.g. [[Talk:Above_ground]] (exists) -> [[Talk:Tile attributes]] (redlink). I am leaving them like that because they redirect to where the talk page should be created, but I'm also fine with people deleting them if they really want to. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* {{tl|quality}} for new articles is disabled (see below)
* Some links from DF2014 to Main weren't working: e.g. the version selector [[DF2014:Mason's workshop]] was linking to [[DF2014:Main:Mason's workshop]] instead of [[Main:Mason's workshop]]. I'm not sure exactly why, but I fixed it with a change to the NamespaceLinks extension. Let me know if you spot similar broken links. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:19, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
</div>

—[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:54, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:The quality levels of the 50.03 pages seem to be missing. I'm not sure if that's covered under that first point. [[User:Trainzack|Trainzack]] ([[User talk:Trainzack|talk]]) 06:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::If the the [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Quality]] feature can be made to work with namespace scheme change, I suggest to automatically assign the lowest quality rating to all pages, alternately add the {{tl|old}} to all pages. Otherwise there will be a lot of pages that will fall through the cracks. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::I disabled {{tl|quality}} in the main namespace because it would require some rework to make the rating script and the template work properly there. Feel free to take a stab at the template. I will see what can be done on the extension side. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::What needs to be done on the template side? I'm not sure I see too big of an issue leaving pages as "unknown-quality" for now (or just change the default to tattered) until we get the rating script working. Is that script up anywhere, anything that could be helped with? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:10, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::They're already marked as unknown. Really the only issue I know of with the template is that it doesn't show up with some of the newer skins we added, and that can be fixed by getting rid of the absolute positioning. As for the script, it can be found at https://github.com/DF-Wiki/QualityRatings, and the issue is really only with the configuration system not recognizing the main namespace as valid. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:29, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::Great, I started having a crack at fixing the template with different themes. Is the preference to get some CSS going and then include it in the global stylesheet (i.e different styles per theme) or to try and get a "one size fits all" fix? —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 08:14, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I would rather avoid custom site-wide CSS if we can. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I appreciate that, I think it's the simplest solution to add a few lines to common.css though. Unless there is a way to attach CSS specifically to a template, I saw a few extensions that allowed that but I'm not sure if any are present in the wiki at the moment. Regardless there already exists a class `div.topicon` that is specifically for the quality ratings, is there an issue with expanding this class to accommodate the themes? The list of themes where the quality rating display is broken/invisible: Citizen, MinervaNeue, MonoBook. —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 21:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::What do you think of moving the template out of the topicon entirely and just placing it in a div? It would take up a (hopefully) small amount of vertical space in the article. [[User:Lethosor/Sandbox/Quality_test]] is an example. Unfortunately it isn't possible to prevent other templates from displaying above the quality this way ([https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User:Lethosor/Sandbox/Quality_test&oldid=283883]). So maybe we do need some custom CSS after all if we want that. I'm open to trying out whatever you propose. I'm a bit worried about future-proofing against skins we add later (particularly a mobile skin) but at least MediaWiki supports skin-specific global CSS as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:33, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::I would rather we avoid taking any more vertical space in the article. The growing block pyramid at the top, starting with version template, is annoying. If you end up placing it inside the article space please use a slim box 100% wide that would include both.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 01:19, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::Agreed with you Jan, however I see that as two different tasks (ArticleVersion template changes, getting quality back on pages). I made a test adjustment to the quality and it takes up a negligable amount of extra space. See [[User:Vallode/sandbox#Page_quality]] for the example, we'd be able to completely remove "topicon" (unless it is used somewhere else?) and then potentially move on to making the ArticleVersion template into a slim version on the left-hand-side instead of a large box? Let me know what you think. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:35, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

It appears some pages are redirecting recursively and never resolving correctly, like the [[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Character_table&redirect=no|character table]] and [[tileset repository]] 07:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
: Indeed, these can be caught here: [[Special:DoubleRedirects]] --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

It might be useful to change the notice title to "release information '''for editors'''" --[[Special:Contributions/142.59.195.176|142.59.195.176]] 10:26, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Can do. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::New here, hello. Should we set a date where we remove/only show the banner for logged in users. There are (some) pages that have 4 different notices about the upgrade. [[Engraving]] is one such page, the top banner states "information for editors", we then have the "this page was migrated" banner, a version selection which warns the article might be inaccurate, and a smaller banner saying the page might need to be updated. Quite a lot of screen space, I think we can start to slowly reduce the amount of warnings this coming month? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 10:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Unfortunately, only showing info to logged-in users is difficult with how MediaWiki caching works. In terms of reducing warnings, there is a discussion [[Template_talk:ArticleVersion#.22Note_that_some_content_may_still_need_to_be_updated..22|here]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:43, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::As for [[Engraving]] specifically, the {{tl|old}} banner was actually present on [[DF2014:Engraving]] as well and got carried over with the migration. I removed it, and agree that it was redundant. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:46, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Main talkpages seem to redirect to DF2014 talk. Not sure if it is intentional but I like it, though we should pay attention when creating new discussion relating to v50 ending up there.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 14:18, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:That's unintentional. I specifically wrote the migration script to not move talk pages, but that has the side-effect of leaving any previously-created "Talk -> DF2014 talk" redirects intact. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Yo Lethosor, are we adding graphic sprites for the pages in some way? Or are we waiting for you to add some sort of new template or something? I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that the current templates don't allow that. Not sure if I'm allowed to change/create any templates either, as I don't want to break things for hundreds of pages. Edit: And IF the icons are allowed, should they be left alone, or 2×-3× sized like how the Minecraft wiki does it? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 14:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Depends on which templates you mean. There are copyright concerns with uploading a premium sprite sheet, for instance. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm not talking about uploading an entire sprite sheet. I'm just talking about individual icons for each respective page. One image for cows, one for horses, one for werebeasts, etc. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 16:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::If we do that for every creature in the sprite sheet, that's not much different (in terms of copyright) from uploading the entire sprite sheet. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:09, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::Is there someone we can talk to about that? We finally get this new game with graphics, and then we can't use the very graphics of the game? No matter what the rules are, I'd say that would be the stupidest thing ever. I know I'm infamous here when it comes to copyright and images and stuff, but about 80% of game wikis out there are completely unofficial, and use game file images like no one's business. I can't imagine anyone's door being knocked on if we used the game's sprites, but I won't add any here until we have a go-ahead. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 17:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::...I've made noise in Mayday's direction on this matter, at least (prob an incorrect maneuver, ''but'').[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 17:55, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: I hope some sort of arrangement can be made so we can use the new sprites with permission/limits, just as we are using the raw files. Otherwise we are all (devs and editors alike) shooting ourselves in the foot here.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::I just thought of something. We're supposedly not allowed to upload entire sprite sheets, right? What if - for the time being - we just use a few of them for the purpose of testing out new infoboxes? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 21:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::I don't know. If someone could ask Kitfox and post the response here, that would be great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::::I've reached out to Alexandra, but she hasn't answered yet. Until then I found these old approvals from the previous community manager, Feeona: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8243633#msg8243633 link1], [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=176640.msg8243642#msg8243642 link2]). Waiting for a newer response until we begin mass uploads is probably the politer option, but like Zippy said, it is also standard for wikis to use game sprites with less approval. I second their idea of trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. On the extreme off-chance (and I do think it is) Kitfox protests we can always remove these few. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:19, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::And here is a third, more official statement: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8249718#msg8249718 link3]). Perhaps that address of info@kitfoxgames.com is the better channel to ask for a confirmation, rather than Discord DMs, but I will be going to bed, so it is best if someone else does that. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::Thanks for tracking this down! Ok, sprites should be fine, but let's avoid uploading the entire premium tileset as a single image, for instance (as the forum thread says, "use common sense"). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::: Looks good, permission is always preferable over fairuse, I think it is a win win for all involved. I agree that we shouldn't upload entire sprite sheets (e.g. there is no reason to upload the windmill from every direction or whole construction phase for workshops) and that there are a lot of details that needs to be ironed out through testing. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 05:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::We have a green light on uploading all and any sprites. Their response to me can be seen [https://i.imgur.com/BhmHjzC.png here]. I'm sure someone else confirmed it before me. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:00, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Shifting temporarily to a new issue, is the documentation of [[Template:ArticleVersion]] outdated? It would seem so to me, since the current version no longer has its own namespace, with the templates needing updating being different ones. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 18:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:I think it is still accurate enough. We left open the possibility of making another namespace in the future, albeit with a different migration strategy - see [[#v50 organization|above]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Some Changes to infoboxes might be needed. Too bad [[User:Doorkeeper]] isn't around. He did a great work with navbox project--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:52, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

I just realized that raw files aren't stored as regular wiki pages but loaded via the DFRawFunctions extension (hence the need to update). Good news it's going to be handled in bulk, consistently and relatively easy to updated. Even better it's Lethosor problem ;) Also I just realized that all the "raw files" (txt files in the new vanilla folder) are released into the public domain. Both are probably not news to the vets but I'll leave it here for those who less up to date like myself. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:35, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: I noticed that some templates aren't working properly in the new namespace, e.g. [[Basalt]] entry had its raw updated manually but the infobox fail to show any details. Cursory look suggest {{t|layerlookup/0}} need a minor tweak. This should do the work
:: Replace: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
:: With___: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{</nowiki>:<nowiki>{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
: Not sure what the plan and ETA with raws update so I didn't touch this high usage template for now. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 08:11, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

::Please do feel free to make this update. I am still working on a script to create the <code>/raw</code> pages themselves. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be an idea to add to the Sitenotice to remove the {{tl|migrated article}} tag when an article has been fully updated? I see many articles that seem to be updated still have the tag. And/or advise to make use of the {{tl|verify}} for sections still in need of checking? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 10:12, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:Probably a good shout. The "see this page" link does include the detail on removing but we should more explicitly encourage removing the banner once a page has at least been looked over. [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:01, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

== v50 specific issues ==
=== Graphics===
Follow up on the use of game sprites and the need to trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. First sprite [[:File:Beds v50.png]] was uploaded and used on [[Bed]] entry. Any thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Seems like it should be rearranged to be horizontal. Also, has there been a serious discussion about copyright? Full screenshots are 100% fine, but you start going into a grey area when you upload pieces of a spritesheet. I'm of the opinion that it's all fine as long as it's inconvenient to reconstruct the full sheet from the individual images. Maybe a further restriction could be you shouldn't upload any of the art unless it's used in an infobox (maybe an exception for pieces of the UI). And one more restriction could be you shouldn't show everything, like in your bed example, maybe just the wooden bed is good enough, leave out the stone and metal, especially since those can only be made from strange moods. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:43, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::Actually, your bed image is kinda bad for showing off what a bed looks like because it doesn't show the pillow/blankets. That might point to cropped screenshots being the best path, although less convenient for the uploader, as you don't get details left out. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:46, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::I created a new license template [[Template:Copyright game]], based it on the way the RimWorld wiki does things. Call it a prototype, but it's probably how your bed image should be labelled. Indeed, I added it to it already. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]])

::: I agree that the horizontal arrangement would suit better here and that we should strive to represent how things look in-game. Otherwise, I am not too concerned about people being able to reconstruct anything (lets just say that ''anyone'' interested in that can get the real thing from the game files), also it seem we have permission to use the sprits on top of fairuse. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 19:55, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

::: Modifying the existing template to allow the inclusion of the new sprites is easy (Something like [https://ibb.co/zFXCrjd this]?) The big question is the matter of consistency is there any exceptions that will break the format (size wise with variant bloat for example), the sprite naming format, etc --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:44, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::: If we are going to show a variant for each material type, then maybe these should be added as separate images so we can add a tooltip for each image. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:49, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

:I've got another prototype going here and here: [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]] and [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox]]. (You'll need to add the css stuff to your own /vector.css). Basically it's a way to recolor images using css classes. No idea if there's a better way. Also, the real implementation would require a change to [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Should mention, there ''is'' a different way, just upload each image 16 times, one for each coloring. But maybe that's not very elegant. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:45, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

: It should be noted that soon the classic edition will be released, hence one should plan to have both the Premium and classic alongside in that little space --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:14, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm looking into a tab extension to potentially support this in infoboxes. Perhaps [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Tabs Extension:Tabs]? I tried [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TabberNeue Extension:TabberNeue], but it displays a placeholder if JavaScript is disabled, which isn't great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: The Neue Tabber seem to works pretty much like the old one (which fandom [https://coding-help.fandom.com/wiki/Tabber#Adding_images_into_tabbers still use]) defaulting to showing the first tab only. Quick look suggest that neue work the same, plus the notice that 'Tabber requires Javascript to function' warning? if so, and if it is a bother, then you should be able to edit out the tabberneue-noscript string in code. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:29, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: I much prefer your tabber solution, but if that fails we can also use the gallery slideshow mode. If so, beware it has no way to control image size so the images have to be maliciously uploaded using the exact same size. example:
<gallery mode="slideshow">
File:SteelSample.png
File:TinSample.png
File:ZincSample.png
File:GoldSample.png
</gallery> --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

==== adding premium set to Infobox ====
I am unclear where are we going with this? 
1) Will (A) tabs be implemented, (B) we be using mediawiki toggle [[Template_talk:V50_workshop|example]] for premium and classic/blocked, (c) put images side by side, or (d) something else? 
2) Also [[silver]] and [[Pig iron]] use very different image style for example. 
3) Anything else you want ? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

: Personally, I would love tabs to be implemented, but I think that side by side might be best for most. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
: Here is rough layout we can use. It should fit most buildings given the default sprite size. There is also a different floor plan for both (inspired by reddit)

{|
|- valign=top
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 5×5
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>
|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|colspan=2|<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">
[[File:Siege workshop.png|center|160px]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab"">
{|
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%; font-size: 125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Siege workshop}}</center>
|style="line-height: 1em; font-size: 125%;"|
{| style="border-spacing:4px;"
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
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|-
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| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 3×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|colspan=2 style="text-align: right;"|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="float:left; border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%;"|
<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">[[File:Carpenter's workshop.png]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab""><center>
{| style="font-size: 175%; border-spacing: 0; background-color: black; border: 2px solid black"
|- 
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|"|7:0:0}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|{{=}}|6:0:0}}
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|]|0:0:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
|}</center></div>
|
{| style="border-spacing:5px;"
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
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|-
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|-
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| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×1
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:Screw_press.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Screw press}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Screw press}}</center>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:water_wheel.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Water wheel}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;line-height:normal;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Water wheel}}</center>
|}
|}
:Any thoughts on the direction and or any and all of its elements? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:16, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

::I kind of like side-by-side, if it fits. If anyone wants to implement a toggle button or tabs, I would ask that that be implemented in a template for now, so that e.g. we could change a toggle button to tabs in a single place if we decide to install an extension to support that. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

::: I noticed a comment saying that [[impassable tile]] are no longer used in v50, is that true for all constructions? If so, floor plans are no longer needed, making things much easier as we can fit everything in except the 5v5 constructions like trade depot (and even these can be placed one above the other if so desired). If not, any thought on the alternative floor plan design? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

:::: None of the constructions have blocking tiles any more from my experience playing. I haven't tested siege weaponry with that stuff, but none of the workshops have it, nor does any furniture. (walls and fortifications will of course obstruct movement [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 18:47, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
::::: Ok, I have removed them from v50. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I have added a basic side by side variant to [[Template:V50 workshop]] and [[Template:Building]] for testing, let us know if there any issues. Few notes:
* The default image naming scheme of <code>workshop-name.png</code> will likely conflict with existing images here or on commons, maybe another naming scheme should be used like <code>v50 workshop-name.png</code> as it is with ascii pictures.
* There is inconsistency in image size. If you want to use large zoomed images then toggle is best, otherwise they need to be all in native size (96px for 3x3).
* In the current version the code roughly centers the images and if there is a big image like with [[Siege workshop]] it drops to a new line --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

How about combining shortcut keys and the new menu icons:
<div style="color:white; font-size: large; text-shadow: -1px -1px 0 #000, 1px -1px 0 #000, -1px 1px 0 #000, 1px 1px 0 #000;">[[File:Ui b.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">b</div>[[File:Ui bo.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">o</div>[[File:Ui bol.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div>[[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div></div>
--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 02:24, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

:I worry that this is difficult to read (I read it as "boil" at first). I would rather use something like {{tl|k}} with a known background. What about something like this? [[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:0px;">{{k|l}}</div> or, alternatively, using flexbox without any overlap: [[File:Ui boll.png]]{{k|l}} —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:37, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Same, but that is the best I came up with. We can use the key or maybe someone can help improve the design. Also 'l' is hard to read even with {{t|key}}.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:05, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: I added a {{t|Menu icon}} to start things so others can have a go with it. Also any thoughts on the icon naming convention (their shortcut sequence), is there easier/better way? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:36, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::[[User:BarelyCreative]] updated the template: {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y}}. I think it looks good, thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::I like that, yeah. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::There were some places where it didn't make sense so display every icon all the time (like step-by-step guides), so I changed it slightly to allow display of fewer icons using "num" and counting from the end: <nowiki>{{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-;|num=2}}</nowiki> {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-|num=2}} [[User:BarelyCreative|BarelyCreative]] ([[User talk:BarelyCreative|talk]]) 09:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

==== Bizarre palette-swapping idea/prototype ====
No idea if this is a good idea, since it takes a bit of time to set up, and there might be some performance issues... and maybe display issues?

But take a look at this:
{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=amber}}

It's way to swap palettes on an image, although the image itself is a table, with each cell representing a pixel. The template itself looks like this:
<code><nowiki>{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=saffron}}</nowiki></code>
Input the pattern and desired palette name.

I've got a larger showcase here: [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase]]. Only did a rock pattern so far, but all palettes are implemented.
The major use for this would be on each stone, metal, wood, etc. type's page. The palette could be read directly from the raws. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 03:22, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

:From a technical perspective, my primary concern is indeed performance. Both on the server side and client side, a large number of tables that large (in terms of markup and cell count, that is) tend to be resource-intensive to generate and render. I saw your image-filtering experiments on [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]], and while that strikes me as a newer and less-backwards-compatible approach, it would probably be more resource-friendly.
:Is this color adjustment something the game is doing natively? i.e. does this accurately match what the game displays? I bet we could slap together an image-filtering extension (or find an existing one?) that can do this if needed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::Yeah that's what I suspected. The images the template creates are spot on, checked it against a screenshot I took of some mica rocks in-game. The css stuff is unfortunately totally incorrect, was cool to learn about it though, so not a complete waste of my time :p. The premium, in-game graphics are true sprites, basically patterns of indexed colors. Each of the in-game colors (which are significantly expanded over the 16 ascii colors, there's 116/117) there is a palette defined in "\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_descriptors_graphics\graphics\images\palettes.png". Each indexed color of the sprite is swapped for the corresponding color in the palette. Because of that, the css stuff doesn't work since it's doing the hue/saturation/brightness changes to the entire sprite.
::I've looked into an existing mediawiki extension, couldn't find anything. One thing I did't really look at is some type of lua script/module that would basically emulate what the game is doing. So some function that takes in the base image as well as the desired palette, and based on that finds and replaces each color. No idea what mediawiki's capabilities are on that front. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 05:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
:::We do have Scribunto installed now, so it's totally possible to do something in Lua too - forgot about that. I can add you to the group that grants access to edit the Module namespace if you want to give that a shot. If we use an extension, we'd probably need a custom one, similar to DFDiagram (or perhaps DFDiagram could be extended - it's in dire need of a rewrite anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:43, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::::I asked around on the mediawiki irc, I think scribunto/lua is a deadend, at least for taking an uploaded image and doing stuff to it with a lua script. However I did come up with this even more bizarre solution, using block elements. [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase2]], maybe less resource intensive? Definitely displays a lot worse though, probably unusable.
::::{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock2|palette-name=saffron}}
::::I dunno, maybe none of this is worth it and we should just write some external program to put all the images together offline, and then just mass upload. It wouldn't be ''that'' many... [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 06:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

====Is there an easy way to just paste images from the clipboard?====

I use KDE spectacle to take screenshots straight to the clipboard (after cropping) -- is there an easy way to just paste (and auto-upload) an image into an article? It would make it a lot easier to contribute images. [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:35, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Unfortunately there is not. I would be open to a MediaWiki extension to support this if someone finds one. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Looks like this could do it, but I haven't used it before: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SimpleBatchUpload [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 19:41, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::: It won't solve paste-from-clipboard, but this would be great for making uploading sprites much easier (auto-cutup spritesheet, rename, bulk upload). Could you add this, Lethosor? [[User:OddballJoe|OddballJoe]] ([[User talk:OddballJoe|talk]]) 21:47, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

====Standards for adding graphical version screenshots and images====

Hello, new user looking into adding imagery from the new version. Is there a standard for quality of new screenshots or images? I noticed that at a certain zoom level (2 zooms in from the furthest zoomed-out view), the graphics appear crisp and 1:1 pixel scaled, and I would propose that all images be taken at this scale whenever possible. If they need to be displayed larger, they should be nearest neighbor scaled in a photo editing program at 100% increments (Microsoft Paint will do this if you first select the image rather than directly scaling the whole canvas). I would also propose that images should be cropped to conform to the 32x32 pixel grid when possible, though this could be problematic with so many new graphical elements exceeding the bounds of their tiles. I would say the best practice for capturing artwork for items, furniture etc. ought to be done in a 3x3 open area to avoid shadows from nearby walls, or else extracted from the raw files (if this doesn't run afoul of being able to re-create the graphical version using those assets).

I know that perfect is the enemy of good, and any documentation is better than none, but just thought I'd ask about this, and see if/where something like this ought to be posted. [[User:Unclesporky|Unclesporky]] ([[User talk:Unclesporky|talk]]) 13:58, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:It has been stated in [[Template:V50 workshop]] that <q>screenshots should be at the "native" resolution</q> but someone could edit the [[Screenshot]] page for best practice for the steam version. Or post some examples in [[Talk:Screenshot]] to find out what is best? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:21, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

====How would I/should I go about putting creature sprites on their pages?====

Howdy. New player and wiki user here. I wanted to try and help update the wiki to the Steam release of DF, so I figured I'd chip in by putting each creature's sprites on their respective page, since I'll often look up a creature I have yet to see in game only to be met by a blue J, or whatever. I found all of the game's creature sprites in C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_creatures_graphics\graphics\images, so I figured I could just chop those up in Photoshop and stick them on here no problem, but the programming syntax/whatever it is on this site is incredibly confusing, I don't know how I'd actually go about doing it. I figured I'd just find the spot on the page where the little letter is and replace that with the image code, but it seems the pages are built using heavily nested templates that I can't even begin to understand. Any help?--[[User:Treese|Treese]] ([[User talk:Treese|talk]]) 03:07, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:Based on [[User:Zippy|Zippy]]'s work at {{tl|Creaturelookup_b}}, I added an "image" parameter to {{tl|creaturelookup/0}}, which is what creature pages should all be using. See [[Dwarf]] and [[Cow]] for examples. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:37, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Hotkeys/Menu navigation ===
Most key bindings and menus have changed. Should the article reflect a) only the old version, b) only the GUI version or c) both? For example, [[Bridge|bridges]] used to be built via {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}, but now it's in Place strucutures {{k|b}} -> Constructions {{k|n}} -> Bridge {{k|b}}. What should be written in the article? Currently, it's {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}. I ''think'' it should be only b), but I am not sure if there will be differences regarding hotkeys or menus between the premium version and the free version and then, c) would be the most appropriate option. --[[User:Prometherus|Prometherus]] ([[User talk:Prometherus|talk]]) 10:16, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: Not sure. I wish the classic release soon --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 16:45, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: Are you Toady's herald? Looks like it was just released! [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:18, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: And our questions are answered, the old hotkeys seem to have been thrown out. Part of me is disappointed (useless muscle memory) but also relieved (unified UI for both versions is good in general and for the wiki). [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:25, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: According to info, in a sort of 'demo version' at that. I'll wait a little while longer, for myself.[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::::It's unlikely that keybindings in it will change significantly. My vote is that we should include information for both premium and classic, everywhere. Hopefully the keybindings are not different between versions. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:26, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::Shouldn't it be based on the 50 or what verion the article is written for? [[User:Dominick|Dominick]] [[User_talk:dominick|(TALK)]] 18:42, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::: The keybindings seem to be consistent between versions, (haven't checked exhausitvely, but since the menu layout is the same I think it is a good assumption). Should also keep in mind/consider that not all actions have keybindings. An option would be write 'Click on the <Example Text> icon or press {{k|E}}' [[User:Koos|Koos]] ([[User talk:Koos|talk]]) 23:14, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

=== Removed features & concepts ===

Since they're removed concepts, I've set [[Room]] to be a redirect for [[DF2014:Room]] and created [[Template:Activity zones]] for the nav bar bedrooms, etc, and made the necessary changes to [[Bedroom]] for it. Is this the correct approach, before I go on much further? (also a note, if it is, then [[Template:v50_rooms]] probably needs to be deleted) I also imagine that considering the number of changes in the interface, that things like [[Adventure mode]] and related pages might best be truncated to "not in 50.03" and when it does make it across, being more deliberately brought over in pieces? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 06:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:Usually it is marked with [[Template:Removed_feature]]. For example: [[Dipscript]] or [[Party]]. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:45, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:: Ah, that's fair. Should that be mentioned in [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Versions#Redirects]]? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 10:03, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::I think the redirect policy mostly had in mind things that were removed a ''long'' time ago, like [[Tax collector]] and [[Economy]] (and the latter actually has a stub page as well). I guess we could clarify. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:34, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: The "current" redirects also cause the version box to incorrectly show that the current version has a page - e.g. [[23a:Cave_river]] shows a v50.04 version, but it's just a redirect back to that version. Similarly, what should happen to redirects like [[Clothes maker]], where a concept has evolved? It currently goes to [[23a:Clothes maker]] - that's correct if the user is trying to look up a very old concept, but if a new user is looking for "how to make clothes", they should be directed to [[Clothier]]. --[[User:Danny252|Danny252]] ([[User talk:Danny252|talk]]) 12:16, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: One should be careful with cv redirects. Most that were recently adjusted were unused plural forms (that should probably be deleted) but few like [[Crown]] needed that for backward compatibility. Removing the [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&type=revision&diff=279966&oldid=219482 cv part] means the the link on [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is now broken. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 22:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::If [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is about v0.31, it should not be using "main:" in its links - ''all'' of those links are going to pages about v50, not v0.31, regardless of whether the target is a redirect or not. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:37, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: You right, I removed it. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 17:55, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Crown cv redir issue is now fixed, I believe. As goes with such cases where one can simply revert the troublesome edit, unless I've mistepped, myself? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 23:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:Both [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=280026] and [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=279966] should not have had any effect, because "cv" is an alias to the main namespace now, just like "main". Proof: [[Crown]], [[cv:Crown]], [[main:Crown]]. It's possible caching is coming into play here, although I purged the redirect cache after making that alias change earlier this month... —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:02, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

I think there have been some changes not captured, but as a newb, I'm afraid to edit the page(s). A good example is Strawberry. I'm playing the Steam version right now and Strawberry plants are "not relevant to brewing" in Labor > kitchen > veg / fruit / leaves. Unless I'm mistaken and need to process them? Another example is the trade caravan = it seems the 3 square pathing no longer happens; it's just yak(s). 12:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC) 12:29, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
:Strawberries should be brewable according to the Raws.
:Trade wagons has been modified in v50. The first wagons will arrive at the same time your fort is becoming a barony. Until then, it's only pack animals and stairs are indeed fine. The [[Trading]] page needs a huge rework anyway... I'll try to do that next week. --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

<s>As far as I can tell, none of the workshop buildings in v50 have blocking tiles any more. There's a comment to the like in data/vanilla/vanilla_buildings/objects/building_custom.txt that says this "[BLOCK:1:0:0:0] workbenches no longer block". Hesitant to update that template as I'm not sure if it's referenced for all of the old versions too. </s> [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 05:54, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
: A new template has been created: {{tl|V50 workshop}} --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::Thanks! In general, I would like to delegate the switching responsibility to the template (like how {{tl|creaturelookup/0}} works), but in cases where the parameters diverge significantly like with workshops, it could make sense to make an entirely new template. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

=== creature infobox prototype (moved) ===

Check it out, I made a temporary template and added it to the [[cow]]s page. Now it shows the sprites (but not the zombified versions yet). I wanted to show everyone a prototype of what v50 creature infoboxes should look like. Or at least something similar to it. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:11, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
:Hi, I'm new to editing wikis but I have done a bit of work with sprite sheets and I've been going through the DF data files to find the different graphics hoping to help with the animal pages. I've thrown together a template with grass and a few nature sprites (plants, a tree, and a rock) for size reference but I'm unsure how large the 'display' tiles in the middle of the template should be to suit all animals. I can see in the sprite sheets that some land animals have an adult and child sprite, so two tiles. Others have a male, female, and child, but after seeing you include the zombie cows I'm unsure if I should make it twice the size to add them too. Alternatively, I could grab some tiles from the haunted biomes for the zombie animals and make a separate template for a side-by-side comparison. Either way, let me know if this helps. I'd like to help with other graphics too as we add the premium tilesets but the animals seemed the easiest to tackle with me being new to wiki editing. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::@Zippy, I am a bit perplexed about the purple cows. Why do we need a zombified version of creatures on every page?
::@UristTheSeventh, we can use all the help. Maybe post an example, so that we can have something to compare and contrast.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::@Jan Here are the examples:
:::[[File:Creature template.png]] [[File:Armadillo.png]] [[File:Seagull.png]]
:::It'll need to be wider or arranged differently for different creatures with more that two sprites or for multi-tile creatures. I can also do an aquatic and air themed template for swimming and flying creatures. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::::Looks nice, like the metal template. There are several people working on updating the graphics you should talk more among yourselves. Best I can offer is that I width wise I am hoping to go up to 200px for infoboxes.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 01:13, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:::: We don't exactly ''need'' a zombie sprite on each page. I added it because it was... there. I was also hoping to get some opinions on it anyway since that infobox is a visual prototype, and not a final choice. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:28, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

===Furniture Infobox===
{{Quality|Unrated}}
{{v50_furniture|name=Bed
|graphic=[[File:bed_sprite_prototype.png]]
|tile=Θ|col=6:0:0
|wood=y
|rooms=
* [[Bedroom]]
* [[Barracks]]
* [[Dormitory]]
|value=10}}
I made a v50 furniture template prototype. I tested this on Firefox, Chrome and Microsoft Edge/Internet Explorer and it looks fine on all of them. I hope this is good enough to be the official thing, unless I'm missing something. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:28, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
{{clear}}

=== When do we remove the migration note on specific pages? ===

At what point can we remove the "this page was auto migrated from v47" warning? There are a bunch of small pages that are more or less accurate, if I've reviewed them, can I go ahead and remove the warning? [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Yes, feel free to remove it if you think all content is accurate. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Any info on fixing "creature description not found?" ===

I see this issue on most creature pages, it seems to be due to a lookup that's not currently functioning? Cows interestingly doesn't have this issue but I couldn't figure out how to recreate whatever fix it's editor did. --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 00:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:That is the missing raws issue described above. Cow was fixed by the addition of [[cow/raw]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:28, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::Ah makes sense, not fully used to the language of wikis yet so I read over it while looking. To put this bit of questioning to rest for any future readers, is it correct that it's fine to update any raws manually, though it will be done automatically at some point? --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 07:48, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Yes. I'm circling back to work on a script right now, so not much point in doing it if you're reading this. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::This should be fixed now. If you continue to see pages with problems, you can try [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Purge purging the cache]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:59, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Adventurer Mode related sections ===

The topic has already been discussed [[#Removed features & concepts|above]], but I don't see a clear line on what to do with article sections that mention Adventurer Mode. Like for example in [[Butcher#Adventurer_mode|Butcher]].

'''a) Truncate''' or '''b) leave in place with a mention''' that the mode is not yet present IG but will be added in a future update?

Personally I think option b) is better, because I think it's silly to undo some work just to reintroduce it a few weeks later, with the necessary corrections. Even if a copy/paste of a previous version takes ~15 seconds, considering the number of articles that need to be corrected, it would be a bit of a waste of time.--[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

== Toggleable image ==

Any objections/comments to using this template for now for toggling between classic and premium images? I'd probably rename it to "Template:Premium-classic thumb image". I'm sure someone can come up with a better UI eventually, but should be easy to migrate at that point. I also think we should use the same customtoggle class for this and for the infobox. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 23:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png
}}

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png|
caption=My caption|
width=100px
}}

:This looks nice to me! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

: Good initiative. From the top of my head:
:* I suggest using a shorthand, no one wants to type 'Premium-classic thumb image'.
:* If we end up using toggle for infoboxes (not sure where we headed there), then I agree definitely same custom toggle class should be used for all, thus allowing to switch premium-classic view on the whole page at a click.
:* The button part on a separate row isn't pretty, creating a lot of dead space that can be used by the text. Are we set on the label 'toggle ascii'? Classic isn't Ascii per se, maybe we can use a 'toggle' with a tooltip {{tooltip|for example|does bla bla bla}}, or maybe we can get rid of the text and have a smaller icon button ([[User:Jan/sandbox#Metal_example|two examples]]).
: I hope that helps. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

:: I added [[Template:Dual image]] with some of your suggestions. Agree that it's not super pretty, feel free to try something different.

::* I put the toggle in the caption mostly because I gave up on trying to make a more sophisticated replacement for the default thumb image behavior, I'm sure someone with better wiki-fu could put together something more intelligent.
::* I cut the text down to just "Toggle"; I think the best solution would be a small graphic showing the old and new dwarf icons with arrows between them. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 19:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

{{Dual image|
premium=File:DFwiki5by53by3farm.png|
classic=File:Quickstart_layout_3.png|
width=100px|
caption=A 5x5 room with a 3x3 farm plot
}}
::: I updated the layout, now it should look just like a regular image thumb. I didn't had time to test it, if it doesn't work for you or you don't like it just revert the last change. cheers. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::::I don't know which part of this talk page to put this, but I added the ability to add icons to the v50 workshops template. Leaving the icon part blank will not break the template in any way. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 09:47, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
{{clear}}
==Creature List Now Supports Graphics!==
I wasn't easy, but I made new templates so the [[Creature]]s page now supports both graphics sprites ''and'' ASCII tiles. Allow me to show you:

{{v50_creaturecurrent_table_head}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:dwarf_sprite.png]]|name=[[Dwarf]]|symbol=☺|color=3:0:0|playable=Fort, Adv|hostile=No|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Mountain halls]], [[Fortress|dwarf fortress]]es, [[hillock]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:elf_sprite.png]]|name=[[Elf]]|symbol=e|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Forest retreat]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:human_sprite.png]]|name=[[Human]]|symbol=U|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=70,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Town]]s and cities|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:goblin_sprite.png]]|name=[[Goblin]]|symbol=g|color=7:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Dark fortress]]es and [[dark pit]]s|note=Snatchers2}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:kobold_sprite.png]]|name=[[Kobold]]|symbol=k|color=6:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=20,000|value=Not tameable|biome=Caves|note=Skulking race}}
|}

Oh wait, there's a bonus. You can also modify the background color of the box the sprites go in. I added that to make possibly-hard-to-see-otherwise sprites more easy to see - depending on the colors it has. Allow me to demonstrate.

{{v50_creaturecurrent_table_head}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:dwarf_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#829ccc|name=[[Dwarf]]|symbol=☺|color=3:0:0|playable=Fort, Adv|hostile=No|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Mountain halls]], [[Fortress|dwarf fortress]]es, [[hillock]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:elf_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#c7dfc0|name=[[Elf]]|symbol=e|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Forest retreat]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:human_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#c7dfc0|name=[[Human]]|symbol=U|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=70,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Town]]s and cities|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:goblin_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#dfc0c0|name=[[Goblin]]|symbol=g|color=7:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Dark fortress]]es and [[dark pit]]s|note=Snatchers2}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:kobold_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#dfc0c0|name=[[Kobold]]|symbol=k|color=6:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=20,000|value=Not tameable|biome=Caves|note=Skulking race}}
|}

To change the background color, add <code><nowiki>|bgcolor=COLOR</nowiki></code> segment after the <code><nowiki>|graphic</nowiki></code> part. You can use color names or HTML hex color codes. I added this to the v50 creatures page, but at this time, I only added the first five creatures I just displayed. It's gonna take a while to find ALL of those creature sprites. I hope a lot of people help out on that one. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 05:29, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

:Thanks, looks nice! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:44, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:Nice stuff, took the quick liberty to change the padding-left -> text-align to make all the sprites center aligned relative to each other :) Sweet work --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:41, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Good work indeed. One minor issue, is that all the sprites have different sizes, which sometimes create slight variation in table row height. Consider using capping the image size vertically for example <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px]]</nowiki></code>--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:15, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Also often in such tables people want to click on the image to go for the specific entry, and often will try to click on the very first thing they see in line the thumb image, but currently that will take them to the file page. Consider adding link parameter for example: <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=dwarf]]</nowiki></code> [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=dwarf]] or no link at all <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=]]</nowiki></code> [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=]] --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:24, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
::: I mean... Yeah, I could do that. I think that lessens the quality of the sprite a bit because it makes edges blurry, but either way is fine. I could have sworn I added a link for all those images the first time. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:23, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::::Since we are adding pixel art sprites to the website it might be convincing to add a global class like .sprite or .pixel-image that uses the CSS attribute `image-rendering: pixelated;` in order to prevent blurryness when scaling the image up/down. Just a thought --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 09:40, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::Are we able to attach classes directly to images? If so, we can probably attach inline styles directly as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:52, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::Looks like (without an extension) MediaWiki only supports classes on images: [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|class=pixelated]] and not styles: [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|style="image-rendering: pixelated;"]] it just treats it as alt text it looks like? Wrapping it in a div works and demonstrates the difference: <div style="image-rendering: pixelated;display:inline;">[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|64px]]</div> [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|64px|inline]]. Speaking from experience, however, image-rendering needs a browser specific prefix in certain browsers (safari, for example) in order to work properly. I'm not entirely sure what the best "MediaWiki" practice is for adding something like this but I would assume it's a simple class in common.css for now. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:17, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Ah, yeah, you are correct, I should have checked https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Images. I'd be fine adding a class like that to common.css. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:27, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Great, in that case if no one is opposed we can add `.game-sprite` or something like that? See below for the CSS, the order of the attributes is relevant. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 18:23, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
<pre>/* Used for pixel-art images from the game so they can be resized and maintain crisp pixel edges. */
.game-sprite {
image-rendering: -webkit-optimize-contrast;
image-rendering: crisp-edges;
image-rendering: pixelated;
}</pre>
:::::::::So... you guys think each creature page should show the main sprite(s) alone, or should it show the baby versions alongside them? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 08:37, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
{{clear}}
=== Graphics in Skill Infoboxes ===
{{v50_skill
| color = 7:0
| graphic = [[File:miner_sprite_icon.png]]
| skill = Miner
| profession = Miner
| job name = [[Mining]]
| tasks =
* [[Dig]]
| attributes =
* Strength
* Toughness
* Endurance
* Willpower
* Spatial Sense
* Kinesthetic Sense}}I've made yet another visual prototype for skills. In other words, we can put sprites of matching dwarves (and possibly humans, elves, goblins, etc.) at the top of infoboxes. If multiple images are put up there, that can mess up the alignment, but don't worry, Zippy thought of that. <code><nowiki>|graphicmargin</nowiki></code> can added, and a percentage or a "px" number can be placed in that parameter to fix it. If you leave said parameter out, the alignment will default to about 42% from the left. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 06:06, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
<pre><nowiki>
{{v50_skill
| color = 7:0
| graphic = [[File:miner_sprite_icon.png]]
| graphicmargin = (OPTIONAL)
| skill = Miner
| profession = Miner
| job name = [[Mining]]
| tasks =
* [[Dig]]
| attributes =
* Strength
* Toughness
* Endurance
* Willpower
* Spatial Sense
* Kinesthetic Sense}}
</nowiki></pre>
::Not sure I understand the alignment issue, can you not put text-align: center on the parent table element instead of messing with explicit margins? As another sidenote, should we continue to be naming all of these templates v50_x, I find that a bit confusing. Why not just edit the main templates with the additional information. Loving all the new templates though nice work Zippy :) --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:43, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
:::No, text-align doesn't work with images and divs. That just works for text. When it comes to images, you got to put a little "finesse" on the CSS with those. As for editing the classic templates with the new info, it doesn't always work that way with ''every'' template. Lethosor I think ''did'' update the creature infobox template in the way you mentioned. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 08:37, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
:::: You can use something like this to automatically handle that--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 08:56, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
{|
|-
|<div style="width:200px; display:flex; background-color:#eaecf0;">
[[File:miner_sprite_icon.png|center]]
<div>
|<div style="width:200px; display:flex; background-color:#eaecf0;">
[[File:miner_sprite_icon.png|center]] [[File:miner_sprite_icon.png|center]]
<div>
|<div style="width:200px; display:flex; background-color:#eaecf0;">
[[File:miner_sprite_icon.png|center]] [[File:miner_sprite_icon.png|center]] [[File:miner_sprite_icon.png|center]]
<div>
|}
:::::Hah I am very familar with the CSS finese :P Can you show me an example of a multi-sprite job infobox? I said what I said because I tested my proposed solution and it worked fine :)

Lavish meal

2023-01-07T13:37:09Z

Vallode: Create lavish meal redirect

#REDIRECT [[Cook#Prepared_Meals]]

Work orders

2023-01-07T12:16:59Z

Vallode: Add image and fix main paragraph

{{av}}
[[File:Work order premium.png|thumb|300px|right|A busy fortress' work order menu.]]

Work orders are an advanced feature of [[Workshop#Management|Workshop Management]] that becomes available with a [[Manager]]. It allows easier management, automation and/or fine control of the various activities needed to maintain a well-oiled fort. The work order screen lists all work orders in the fortress, shows their status and allows to modify them and place new general orders. It is accessed from the main screen through the work order menubutton (the clipboard icon in the bottom left). Keyboard shortcut : {{k|o}}

==Work Order Conditions==

Work Order Conditions are incredibly versatile and equal parts daunting. There are various options that can be selected as conditions:
===Frequency Condition===
This decides how often (if any) the work order will repeat. If there are no other conditions, the options are:

* One-time order
* Restarts if completed, checked daily
* Restarts if completed, checked monthly
* Restarts if completed, checked seasonally
* Restarts if completed, checked yearly

If there are other conditions, the options are:
* One-time order, conditions checked daily
* One-time order, conditions checked monthly
* One-time order, conditions checked seasonally
* One-time order, conditions checked yearly
* Restarts if completed, conditions checked daily
* Restarts if completed, conditions checked monthly
* Restarts if completed, conditions checked seasonally
* Restarts if completed, conditions checked yearly

===Item Condition===

By far the most complex condition, and the most common one used.

Each Item condition has a set of parameters:

* Amount
* Equality
* Type
* Material
* Adjective

Unless specifically stated, the Type, Materials and Adjectives default to 'Any'

====Amount and Equality====
The part of the condition that states when it is true or false. Amount is the number it activates on, equality is one of the following:

* At Least (At Least 5 will activate on 5 or more)
* At Most (At Most 5 will activate on 5 or less)
* Greater Than (Greater Than 5 will activate on 6 or more)
* Less Than (Less Than 5 will activate on 4 or less)
* Exactly (Exactly 5 will activate on only 5)
* Not (Not 5 will activate on any number other than 5)

====Type====

The type of object. Examples include Thread, Bar, Cloth, Breastplate, Stone, Fish, Plants.

====Material====

The exact material an object is made from. Examples include Yak Tallow, Cat Soap, Hide Root Plant, Hide Root Seed, Steel, Hematite.

====Adjectives====

A bunch of definitions for items that range from the 'type' of material (e.g. Yarn, which includes Sheep, Alpaca and Llama wool) to the state of the object (e.g. Empty, for an Empty bag or Empty Barrel). An Item can have multiple adjectives. Adjectives can be very powerful, but are also not entirely obvious what they are. Some useful Adjectives, examples of items with said adjectives, and uses of said adjectives are listed below.
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Adjective !! Example !! Usage
|-
| Aluminium-bearing items || Native Aluminium || Same as using 'Native Aluminium' material
|-
| Bag-processable items || || For the "Process plant to bag" order
|-
| Bismuth-bearing items|| Bismuthinite || Same as using 'Bismuthinite' material
|-
| Bone items || Yak Bone, Elf Bone, Horse Bone || For checking you have bones before doing bone crafts or making bone bolts. Can also be used to set a minimum number of bone bolts you want
|-
| Clay items || Fire Clay stone, Clay Loam Mug || Useful in combination with 'Stone' type to check how much Clay you have available
|-
| Cookable items || Turkey Egg, Pig Meat, Plump Helmet || Used for checking if you have enough items to make roasts
|-
| Copper-bearing items || Tetrahedrite, Malachite || Used for checking if you have copper ores for making alloy metals out of ores
|-
|Dye Items || Dimple Cup Dye, Hide Root Dye || Used for checking for dye for dye jobs, can be used to set a condition on 'mill plants' jobs
|-
|Dyable items || Pig Tail Cloth, Cave Spider Silk Thread || Used for checking for items to dye with dye jobs
|-
|Dyed items || Pig Tail Cloth, Cave Spider Silk Thread || Used for checking how much dyed items exist
|-
|Empty items || Leather Bag, Large Green Glass Pot || Useful for checking for barrels for brew jobs, and checking for empty bags for jobs that require bags to store objects in
|-
|Fat items || Pig Fat, Yak Fat, Crundle Fat || The adjective for fat that gets turned into Tallow
|-
|Flux items || Chalk Stone, Limestone Stone || Used in Steel and Pig Iron creation
|-
|Food Storage items || Large Gabbro Pot, Oak Barrel || Listed twice in adjectives, unknown why or what difference there is between the two
|-
|Glass items || Green Glass Goblet, Raw Clear Glass || Can be used when cutting raw glass into gems to get a set number of glass gems
|-
|Glazable items || Stoneware Large Pot || Used for checking if there's items to glaze
|-
|Glaze items || || Used for checking there's items to glaze clay items with
|-
|Gold-bearing items || Gold Nuggets || Same as using 'Gold Nugget' material
|-
|Hair/wool items || Yak Thread, Horse Thread || Not the same as Yarn items. Can be used for suturing, but not turned into cloth
|-
|Horn items || Yak Horn || Used for checking items required to make horn crafts
|-
|Iron-bearing items || Hematite, Magnetite || Better to use the specific ores, unless you want to make rock objects out of iron containing ore.
|-
|Ivory/tooth items || || Used for ivory crafts and decorating items with teeth.
|-
|Lead bearing items || Galena || Same as using Galena material
|-
|Lye-bearing items || || Used for checking amount of lye for soap and potash creation
|-
|Lye/milk-free items || Willow Bucket || Used for getting milk and lye, can also use Empty adjective
|-
|Melt-designated items || || Used for checking if there's enough melt-designated objects for 'melt a metal object' order
|-
|Milk items || Yak Milk || Used for making cheese, can check how much milk you have for milk jobs
|-
| Milkable items || Purring Maggots || Only for milking Purring Maggots. Cows are not milkable items.
|-
| Millable items || Hide root plant, Cave Wheat plant || For milling at a quern
|-
| Nickel-bearing items || Garnierite || Same as using material Garnierite
|-
| Non-pressed || Pig Tail Paper Slurry Glob || Used on Plant Slurry to Sheet jobs, can be added to Mash Plant jobs to limit how many Plant Slurry Globs are made
|-
| Oil-bearing items || || Used in soap making from oil
|-
| Paper-slurry || Pig Tail Paper Slurry Glob || Used on Plant Slurry to Sheet jobs, can be added to Mash Plant jobs to limit how many Plant Slurry Globs are made
|-
| Paper-slurryable || Pig Tail, Rope Reed || Used in Mash plant into slurry order, for checking if plants are available for making slurry
|-
| Plant items || Hemp, Hide Root, Sweet Pod, Pig Tail Cloth || Useful for cloth orders. Can check if an item is made of plant cloth through this adjective
|-
| Processable (to barrel) items || || Used for the Process to Barrel order
|-
| Processable (to vial) items || || Used for the Process to vial items
|-
| Renderable items || ||
|-
| Sand-bearing items || Red Sand Bag || Not to be confused with Sand items, which only selects the sand in a bag. For jobs to collect Sand, Sand-bearing items is the one that works
|-
| Shell items || ||
|-
| Silk items || || Useful for cloth orders. Can check if an item is made of silk cloth through this adjective
|-
| Silver-bearing items || Galena Ore || Used for making alloys with Silver
|-
| Soap items || || Can be added to type Bars to check for amount of soap
|-
| Tallow items || || Used for checking if there's enough tallow for soap making jobs
|-
| Tin-bearing items || Cassiterite Ore || same as Cassiterite Material
|-
| Unimproved items || Any item without encrusting || In theory could be used for checking if there's items available to be encrusted
|-
| Written-on items || Written on Quire || Used for checking a quire is ready to be bound into a codex
|-
| Yarn items || Alpaca Wool Bag, Sheep wool thread || Useful for cloth orders. Can check if an item is made of yarn cloth through this adjective
|}

===Work Order Dependency===
This creates a condition where the second work order (the one being created) will only activate if the first work order (the one selected as a condition) either is completed or activated.

==Work Order Examples==

Most work orders that a fortress will need are simple to create, but certain options that a fortress may want are more finicky to create. A set of example work orders for common needs are collated below.

===Process Plants (Plant Thread) with a maximum Plant Thread condition===

This work order will keep a minimum of 20 plant thread, and activate when there are greater than 5 processable plants available.

# Create a 'Process Plants' work order. Set the number of times the task will be performed to 5.
# Ingredients Condition:
## In conditions, add the suggested condition 'unrotten processable plants'.
## adjust the number to be how many plants minimum you want available - in this case, 5 plants minimum will mean this activates only when all 5 process plants tasks can be accomplished.
# Plant Thread Condition:
## Add a Condition to the Work Order.
## Change Type to 'Thread'.
## Change Adj to 'Plant items'.
## Set the number to the maximum Plant Thread you want from this order - in this case, 20.
## Press 'Change the inequality of the condition' until the condition says 'at most 20' or 'greater than 20'.

===Collect Sand if there is not enough sand===

This work order will activate if there are at least 5 empty bags, and if there are less than 20 bags of sand.

#Create a 'Collect Sand' work order. Set the number of times the task will be performed to 5.
#Empty Bags condition:
##Add a Condition to the Work Order.
##Set the Type of the item to Bag (specifically 'Bag', not any other sort of bag that has been procedurally generated for instruments).
##Set the Adjective of the item to 'Empty items'.
##Set the amount on the bag condition to 5.
#Sand Bags condition:
##Add a Condition to the Work Order.
##Set the Adjective of the item to 'Sand-Bearing Item'.
##Set the amount on the sand bearing item condition to 20.
##Press 'Change the inequality of the condition' until the condition says 'at most 20' or 'greater than 20'.

===Collect Clay if there is not enough clay===

A work order that will collect clay if there's less than 20 clay available.

#Create a 'Collect Clay' work order.
#Clay Condition:
##Add a Condition to the Work Order.
##Set the Type of the item to 'Stones'.
##Set the Adjective of the item to 'Clay items'.
##Set the amount on the Clay Stones item condition to 20.
##Press 'Change the inequality of the condition' until the condition says 'at most 20' or 'greater than 20'.

===Make Steel Bars automatically===

Using two repeating work orders, steel can be set to automatically be created. In this case the order will make 20 steel bars if there are less than 40 steel bars.

#Create a 'Make Pig Iron Bars' work order. Leave the amount at 10.
#Pig Iron Bars Conditions:
##Under suggested Conditions, select Pig Iron Bars, Iron Bars, Flux Stones, and Refined Coal conditions.
##For Pig Iron Bars, change the Material to 'Steel'. This will change this condition to be based on how much Steel the fortress has. Set the amount on this to 40.
##Set Iron Bars, Flux Stones, and Refined Coal conditions to be '''20'''. This will be the amount of ingredients needed to do 10 Pig Iron bar orders, and then 10 Steel bar orders.
#Create a 'Make Steel Bars' work order. Leave the amount at 10.
#Steel Bars Conditions:
##Select 'Make the activation of the work order depend on the status of another work order'. From this list, select the Pig Iron Bars work order that was already created.
##Press 'Change the frequency that the conditions are checked' once, to make the steel bars order repeat upon completion.
#(Optional, makes things smoother) When the pig iron bars work order activates, add a 'Make the activation of the work order depend on the status of another work order' condition to the Pig Iron Bars work order, to require the Steel bars order to be completed. This will make the two orders loop on each other.

===Shearing animals===

Animals with wool can be sheared roughly every 300 days. Creating a work order that runs each year will mean the animals get sheared whenever they are able to be sheared.

#Create a 'Shear Animal' work order. Set the number to the number of shearable adults in the fortress.
#On the Shear Animal Order, go into conditions and press 'Change the frequency that the conditions are checked' until the order is set to 'Restarts if completed, checked yearly'
#(Optional) Shear Animal Conditions
##Add an item condition.
##Set the type to 'Thread'.
##Set the Adjective to 'Yarn items'.
##Set the amount to the maximum yarn thread wanted (<x>).
##Press 'Change the inequality of the condition' until the condition says 'at most <x>' or 'greater than <x>'.
#Create a 'Spin Thread' work order. Set the amount to 5.
#Spin Thread Conditions:
##Under Spin Thread Suggested Conditions, select 'Amount of unrotten hair/wool body part'.
##Set the amount to 5.
##Press 'Change the inequality of the condition' until the condition says 'at least <x>'. This will mean if there are exactly 5 wool body parts it will activate, whereas if the condition is left on 'greater than' it will not.

===Make Soap bars===

Creating Soap if there is not enough soap. In this case, the minimum soap required is 20, and uses Tallow. The same applies to Oil based soap.

#Create a 'Make soap from tallow' work order. Set the amount to 5.
#From suggested conditions, select 'amount of bars', and 'unrotten tallow fatty glob'.
#Set 'amount of bars' to be 20, and 'unrotten tallow fatty glob' to 5.
#Select the adjective of 'amount of bars' to be 'Soap items'
#Create a new Item condition, set the amount to 5.
#Set the Material of the new item condition to 'Lye'
#Set the Type of the new item condition to 'Liquid'

===Make bone bolts===

Creating bone bolts if you do not have 50 bone bolts, and have at least 5 bones.

#Create a 'Make bone bolts' work order. Set the amount to 5.
#From suggested conditions, select 'bolts' and 'unrotten bone body part'
#Set the amount on 'unrotten bone body part' to 5.
#Set the amount on 'bolts' to 50.
#Add the adjective 'Bone items' to the 'bolts' condition.

===Make wooden furniture based on amount of wooden furniture available===

For creating a variety of wooden furniture not of a specific material, the Plant adjective can be used to check that a certain amount of wood furniture has been created. This example talks about Tables, but this can be applied to any wooden item.

#Create a 'Make wooden table' work order.
#From suggested conditions, select 'Amount of tables'
#On the 'Amount of Tables' condition, add the 'Plant items' adjective

==Bugs/Finicky UI==
===Adjectives===
When changing the adjective of an item condition in a work order, because you can select multiple adjectives there is no automatic return to the work order conditions. To leave, you will want to Right-Click, which'll take you back to the Work Order menu, and then select the work order you're working on again.

==See also==
* [[Manager]]

File:Work order premium.png

2023-01-07T12:07:57Z

Vallode: In-game work order screen with premium graphics.

== Summary ==
In-game work order screen with premium graphics.

Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions

2023-01-07T11:43:56Z

Vallode: /* Graphics in Skill Infoboxes */

{{archive|
# [[DF Talk:Versions/Archive 1|Page 1]]}}

== Version 0.31.19 starts a new DF generation? ==

My reading of Toady's comments on the release of 0.31.19 is that it came out basically because he felt it would take too long to get DF all the way to 0.32. With the ore changes, the sitefinder changes, the addition of grazing and several different industries, there's a lot of changes between 31.18 and 31.19. So I'm thinking it might be a good idea to call it the first release of DF2011 - and what we refer to as "DF2010" would then become 0.31.18.

Thoughts? --[[User:DeMatt|DeMatt]] 07:06, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

==Revisiting Redirects==
I wasn't around when the redirect policy was created, and I'm having trouble understanding the rationale. The example claims that linking [[Main:Cheese]] to [[cv:Cheese maker]] is problematic...but mainspace only ever redirects to the current version. If the best target in the current version is cheese maker, why not link to it directly? (It's not, at least for Cheese, since [[DF2012:Cheese]] exists now.) The explanation seems to be claiming that 40d articles that link to Cheese will follow the Mainspace link--but that hasn't been the case for a long while now. Articles in 40d automatically link against other articles in 40d, so that version remains internally consistent no matter where mainspace links to in the current version. For a current example, what do we gain by linking [[Main:Mead]] to [[cv:Mead]] and linking [[DF2012:Mead]] to [[DF2012:Alcohol]]?

If this really is just an outdated procedure, I recommend we drop the mummery and allow mainspace to link to cv:(best target). Double redirects ''may'' work (sometimes, but [[Main:Mead]] demonstrates a common problem where automatic redirection fails), but if they are unnecessary I think they should be avoided, partly because of problems like [[Main:Mead]] and partly because of the effort required to protect double redirects from users who believe they are problematic.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:16, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

:I was just thinking that. I'm currently attempting to write a basic extension to eliminate the need for mainspace redirects entirely, although Mediawiki's class structure may make this more difficult than I had hoped (the only method I've found for resolving redirects takes the ''article text'' instead of a title, e.g. "#REDIRECT ..."). I do agree that the current situation with redirects isn't ideal, so I'm hoping this will work better (once I get it to work). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:42, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Okay, that wasn't quite as clear as I meant it to be. In general, I think this is a tricky situation. Mediawiki wasn't designed to have five content namespaces, and certainly not chains of redirects between them. The problem that was pointed out in the [[DF:REDIR|policy]] is the fact that with:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
pages in the cv: namespace can't use [[<nowiki/>foo]], since the namespace links modification causes it to be treated as [[<nowiki/>cv:foo]] instead, which doesn't exist. The current suggested solution is this:
Main:Foo -> cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
This fixes the problem of [[<nowiki/>foo]] not working on cv pages, but creates issues with double redirects not always working. Another solution, which is more intuitive to new editors, is:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
Both require creating two redirects. The first method has the advantage of ''ensuring'' that the cv redirect exists (otherwise, main:foo would be a redlink), while the second has the advantage of working more reliably in a couple cases.

What I'm trying to do is make main:Foo "jump" to cv:Foo when cv:foo exists, ''even if main:foo doesn't exist'' (basically it would treat all mainspace pages as redirects to cv pages, but only if the cv page exists and not the mainspace page). I had main:Bar jumping to cv:Bar fine, but if cv:Foo redirected to cv:Bar, accessing main:Foo would mysteriously stop at cv:Foo even if I increased the redirect limit. What I'm trying to do now is follow the redirects internally, without relying on Mediawiki to do it automatically - unfortunately, that has proved to be harder than I had hoped (and I sent my web server into an infinite loop while trying). I will try to work on this some more when I get a chance, although I'm not sure when that'll be yet :(. For now, feel free to fix broken double mainspace redirects as necessary, as long as redirects in the DF2012 namespace stay pointing to the right page (and new mainspace redirects get added in the DF2012 namespace too). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

:You're treating cv like a namespace--it's not. It is simply shorthand for "fill in the current version here". [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Briess&diff=182404&oldid=181281 As I discovered a long time ago on a server not far away], linking from Main:Foo to cv:Foo tends to break redirection chains. If, instead of linking to cv:Foo, you link to DF2012:Foo, it might just work. It would, of course, be better if your patch could evaluate cv itself, but even if you have to hardcode the current version it's a single point of maintenance that requires update very infrequently. (For that matter, we could probably dispense with the cv hack entirely and just have a bot update mainspace links from DF2012 to DF201X when we switch to a new version.)--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:05, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
::I know cv isn't a namespace - I was just trying to avoid future confusion when the DF2012 namespace changes. It's interesting that changing "cv" to "DF2012" fixes some broken redirects, although I've found that simply making an edit to a broken redirect can usually fix it as well. I've actually had the most problems with double redirects when the second one (in the DF2012 namespace) doesn't use the DF2012 prefix (e.g. main:Foo containing <nowiki>[[cv:Foo]] and DF2012:Foo containing [[Bar]]</nowiki>). I'd rather keep the cv alias even if it isn't necessary for mainspace redirects when I get the patch to work, since it makes it easier to refer to the current version of the page (for example, several MDF articles contain links to a vanilla page for things that don't change in the mod).
::Also, using aliases like "cv" is supported by Mediawiki; in fact, several WMF wikis use them (for example, "[[wikipedia:WP:Redirects|WP:Redirects]]" on Wikipedia). It's quite likely that Mediawiki isn't processing double redirects using aliases correctly, though, since that's uncommon on most wikis. --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:35, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

In light of the lack of support for the current redirect policy, I propose we replace the current redirect section with:

:Mainspace article pages should use the cv: alias when redirecting to a versioned page, which will automatically update the link when a new version is released. For example, page "Main:Foo" should redirect to page "cv:Bar" (where "Bar" is the page that best describes the topic Foo in the current version).

:Pages in mainspace should only redirect to an older versioned page if that content no longer exists in the current version of the game (e.g. [[Cave river]], [[Chunk]]). In these cases the cv: alias cannot be used.

:Pages inside a versioned namespace should not use the cv: alias. Instead, they should redirect to the best page within that versioned namespace (e.g. [[DF2012:Dodging]], [[v0.31:Drink]]).

:Due to limitations of the wiki software, double redirects should be avoided if possible. When fixing double redirects in mainspace, please make sure to use the cv: alias as appropriate.

If no one objects, I will make this change in a few days.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:21, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

:Okay with me. It may be worth mentioning that double redirects only really need to be changed when they don't work (since changing a lot of redirects that work isn't necessary), but I think it's clearer and more relevant than the current policy. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Done.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:55, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I was finally able to get my extension to work after being motivated by one too many malfunctioning redirects. It now causes nonexistent pages in the main namespace to behave exactly like redirects to their DF2012 counterparts (when linked to, accessed directly, and transcluded). Double redirects also work (up to 100, in fact, although that was a temporary safety measure that I'll probably change). This means we'll be able to safely get rid of all mainspace redirects (redirects that redirect to something other than "cv" will still function if not deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:20, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
:What about articles which don't exist in the current version but do exist in older versions? Will those still need mainspace redirects, or will your extension be able to automatically redirect them to v0.31/40d/23a? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] ([[User talk:Quietust|talk]]) 01:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
::It ignores all mainspace pages that actually have content, including redirects, so pages like [[masons guild]] won't be affected (unless deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:47, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Done and deployed. [[Cat]] is still treated as a redirect, even though I just deleted it (try clicking on the "redirected from" link). Pages that exist are ignored, so [[Masons guild]] and [[History of Dwarf Fortress]] still function normally (as a redirect to a 23a page and a non-redirect, respectively). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm sending around a bot right now to delete all redirects of the format "foo -> cv:foo" (a surprising number don't fit this format, so I'm leaving them alone for now). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:43, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

:I'm confused. Do we use double redirects or not? Is there a single place we define our linking policy (including redirects), and is it updated?
:I had trouble linking to [[Consolidated_development]] in [[v0.34:Dragon]]. It kept pointing to v0.34:Consolidated_development, which does not exist. I ended up linking to Main:Consolidated_development to make it work. --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] ([[User talk:Nahno|talk]]) 10:18, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

::That's a separate problem altogether - links in the versioned namespaces (v0.34, v0.31, 40d, 23a) automatically link to pages within their namespace. I may be able to set up a fallback to mainspace once I'm able to deploy again, but for now the "main:" alias is the intended solution. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 11:36, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

== Google often directs people to the 0.31 page ==

I've noticed a couple of times that finding a wiki page from an external search will often drop me onto a page from an older version. Is it possible to mitigate this somehow for new players? I could imagine something like redirecting old:Bar -> cv:Bar unless the user has come from old:Foo; no idea if that would actually work though. [[User:PeridexisErrant|PeridexisErrant]] ([[User talk:PeridexisErrant|talk]]) 11:48, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

:As a temporary solution, I could write a script that displays a banner of some kind if the user came from an external site. I'll ask Briess if he can do anything on the server level to increase the weighting of the current version's pages. (Obviously there are situations where people are looking for old pages, like [[23a:dungeon master]], so we don't want to disable indexing entirely on old pages.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:03, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

== DF2014? ==

As Toady [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ draws closer to a new release], it might be worthwhile to discuss the addition of a new version to the wiki. The upcoming release covers two years of changes and introduces a number of new plants, foods, drinks, multi-tile trees, climbing, jumping, etc., so it is likely to have significant changes from the current DF2012. To avoid having people start new pages (and lose all the effort spent refining the prior version's page), I think it would be best to have a bot automatically copy over the DF2012 pages as a starting point for DF2014. I would suggest that these copied pages include a noticebox template mentioning that the content may be outdated, so that we can easily track which pages have been reviewed. I think either the {{tl|version check}} or {{tl|old}} template would work. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:43, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

:This is what [[User:QuietBot]] did after the 0.34 release, so it's certainly possible to use the same script to migrate to DF2014. I would like a way of tagging migrated pages, since inaccuracies in some pages went unnoticed for months after they were migrated. Since {{tl|old}} is already in use, {{tl|version check}} may be a better solution (it can be reworded slightly, or we can make a separate template for DF2014 migration). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:23, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
:Made [[Template:DF2014 migrated]] as an example. Any thoughts? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:32, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

== Redirects inconsistency ==

Following a redirect is supposed to be exactly the same as going straight to the page it redirects to, but this actually isn't the case:
* Go to [[Seeds]] and you get [[v0.34:Seed]] (outdated)
* Go to http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Seeds&redirect=no and click on the link and you get to [[DF2014:Seed]] (current)
So if you search for "seed", the top result is the DF2014 version. But search for "seeds" and you get the redirect, which sends you to the outdated page instead. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

While I'm talking about redirects, it seems redirects to sections don't work: see [[DF2014:How do I manage my seeds and crops]]. I know MediaWiki is capable of this trick because Wikipedia does it. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:32, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

:I have absolutely no idea why [[seeds]] redirects to a v0.34 page - it could be a Mediawiki bug. The section links issue is due to a known issue in the redirect extension we use, which has yet to be fixed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:01, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
:It looks like deleting both [[Seeds]] and [[DF2014:Seeds]] fixed things (by allowing AutoRedirect to handle the redirects instead). Feel free to tag any others with {{tl|bad redirect}}. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::It gets stranger. [[Vial]] redirects explicitly to [[cv:Flask]] which displays (when you look at it with &redirect=no) as [[DF2014:Flask]], but still goes to the v0.34 version. It seems redirects interpret the cv: pseudo-namespace (or whatever it's called) in an outdated way. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 18:08, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::I've added a note to this page about this issue. If it gets resolved, the note should be removed. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 21:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

==Reorganizing versions==

The internet deals with moved content... poorly. Google is still linking to v0.34 pages more than a year after the switch to "DF2014", and even the wiki software still has cached links pointing to the old version pages.

I propose reorganizing versions on the wiki to avoid moving content whenever possible. Instead of having a temporary "current version" namespace that changes occasionally, all the current information gets promoted to the Main namespace. When the next version split occurs, the Main articles as of a certain revision number can be copied to the newly-created permanent "old version" namespace, while all the current information remains in Main. This not only fixes the link rot issue, but it has a few other benefits as well: fewer administrative tasks, no lockdown (a historical version of the Main pages can be copied at any point, even if the Main articles are already modified for the new version), almost all the article history is maintained in the Main article (instead of being spread unevenly across multiple versions), no "temporary" namespaces are needed, fewer problematic long redirect chains, and hopefully less user confusion (since Main gets priority in search results, etc.).

As an example, today we would not have a DF2014 namespace (which is good because "temporary" namespaces historically disappear anyway). If you ran a search for [[seed]] you'd end up at Main:seed, which would have all the current information on seeds. The version box at the top of the page would still link to the older versions of the seed article. When a new version is released, an admin would choose a revision number and copy the Main:seed article as it exists at that revision number to v0.40:seed. That's it. One historical copy that needs little to no new editing, and zero redirections/moves.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:02, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

:Makes sense to me. It would involve a lot of work, though (e.g. fixing templates and categories to account for the current version being in mainspace), although that should be doable thanks to {{tl|category}}, {{tl|version switch}}, etc.. A bot could be set up to copy revisions from before a release date as well, which would be more difficult (and maybe slower) than a direct copy, but not severely. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:24, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

:Actually, there are a few issues with that, namely that there wouldn't be an easy way to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned mainspace pages. There are ways to resolve Google search priority (we can exclude pages from older versions from search engine results if there are newer versions of those pages available, for example). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:47, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::There aren't very many non-versioned mainspace pages, and determining if a page is versioned is as simple as looking for the version template and/or categories added by the version template (e.g. copy [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Category:Current this category] instead of Main:*). The problem with "suggesting" newer pages to Google is that they obviously aren't crawling our wiki regularly (if they were, the fact that the mainspace redirects point to new pages would automatically be picked up). Even if your Google hints worked they wouldn't do anything for all the other broken links out on the 'net.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:35, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: Google actually crawls the wiki constantly - we probably get crawl hits from google for a continuous block of 2-3 hours per day, each and every day. Why they are slow to update is beyond me though. I can't remember why we didn't do this initially, but there was a technical limitation involved if I remember correctly. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] ([[User talk:Briess|talk]]) 22:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: There are <meta> tags that can be used to hide pages from search results (for search engines that recognize them, that is). Searching for {{tl|av}} or [[:Category:Current]] might work, although we'd have to make sure all of the DF2014 pages include that (some pages don't, particularly some disambiguation pages, although all of them should). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:53, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

:Is there a particular reason main and current are separate to begin with?—[[User:CLA|CLA]] ([[User talk:CLA|talk]]) 00:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

::It's mostly intended to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned pages and make version-related templates simpler to work with, since every versioned page has a namespace. I wasn't active here in 2010 when this system was created, so Briess and Emi would know more.
::Another issue I just thought of with Loci's suggestion is categories - currently, categories like [[:Category:Animals]] are used to organize the versioned sub-categories. Sure, we can change {{tl|Category}} to categorize mainspace pages in [[:Category:v0.40:Animals]] or [[:Category:DF2014:Animals]], but that would be less straightforward because there wouldn't be a namespace with that name (until pages are migrated when a newer major version is released). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

:Moving current pages to the main namespace sounds like a great idea. -[[User:Jecowa|Jecowa]] ([[User talk:Jecowa|talk]]) 20:47, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Another thought: dealing with migrating redirects could be difficult with this proposal - specifically, determining which redirects should be migrated to a versioned namespace. Redirects can't contain {{tl|av}}, at least not before ``#REDIRECT``. I ''think'' it would be possible to copy pages in two stages, though - all non-redirects first, then all redirects whose targets were also copied. Thoughts? Anything I'm missing? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:41, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Some subpages (particularly /raw and /Edit notice) also deliberately lack {{tl|av}}, although those shouldn't be too hard to handle. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

:Redirect pages (and all other edge cases I've looked at) can be included in categories (like [[:Category:Current]]) to determine whether or not they should be copied into an archival version. But if the redirects are "properly qualified" then they can all be copied over blindly. Mainspace redirects pointing to versioned information should use a blank namespace (which will be automatically constrained to the archival namespace); mainspace redirects pointing to unversioned information should use an explicit "Main" (which will automatically link back to the unversioned page). Then, when [[[[Toady]]]] gets copied to [[[[v0.4x:Toady]]]] it will point back to [[[[Main:Toady One]]]]. Meanwhile, [[[[Beer]]]], copied to [[[[v0.4x:Beer]]]], will properly point to [[[[v0.4x:Alcohol]]]].--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:00, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

::I think qualifying redirects is the best solution here - categorizing redirects manually is another possible source of errors, since categories (or a lack thereof) would only be visible on the redirect page itself, and [[:Category:Current]] is a hidden category. Copying over mainspace redirects into versioned namespaces would also resolve some issues that have come up due to those not reliably existing currently. I should be able to set up a bot script to add "main:" to current mainspace redirects (and it shouldn't break anything, since those redirects go to other mainspace pages anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:57, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

(Note: I wrote all of this without noticing the previous discussion above.) I was wondering, when the wiki creates a new namespace for a major release again, if it is possible to ''not'' create a namespace for the next current version (e.g. "DF202x") and instead have the mainspace articles (which are currently redirects) become the new cv and move the content there. Therefore, [[cv:Cat]] would just be "[[Cat]]" (or [[Main:Cat]]).

Certain namespace-related templates like [[Template:Ns/0]] would need to be changed, though nothing significant as far as I know. For most cases, any "DF2014" would be replaced with "Main" or even blank. There's also multiple extensions handling the current namespace system and they may need to be modified too, though I'm not sure if or how much. I'm guessing based on the discussions above that it will change stuff up.

My reason is the current namespace is increasingly becoming more anachronistic. "DF2014" could be misinterpreted as "this page is about the 2014 version of the game" or "this page was last updated in 2014", which I've seen a few people in forums mention. Granted that [[Template:Av]] is on the top of very article, I still think the namespace is inconsistent with the recentness of the article. But how is this related to what I'm asking for? Let's say we continue the current system: if we happen to do a new namespace change this year and create DF2020, the next major release (after graphics/UI) will be mythgen, which is estimated to take several years to develop (the Big Wait), and so the anachronism will start over again. The proposed way will prevent this from occurring for the next major release and every release thereafter.

I think the confusion with having a namespace that becomes old-fashioned overtime supersedes the confusion with not marking current versioned articles with a namespace. Most users just search "Cat" on the search bar and naturally expect to get information about the latest release of DF. So if users go a page that's just titled "Cat", they won't expect outdated info about cats from a previous release. That's how the current system works anyways. We'll be skipping the two-step process that we have now. It'll make several wiki tasks much simpler as well. Editors can create new articles for current versions without remembering to add a namespace. It'll fix any existing issues with (double) redirects; instead of [[Main:Kitten]] redirecting to [[cv:Kitten]], which goes to [[DF2014:Kitten]], which then redirects to [[DF2014:Cat]], [[Main:Kitten]] would just redirect to [[Main:Cat]]. And the cv: alias will no longer be necessary since "cv:" = "Main:" and will be forever.

There's no need to differentiate the current version and previous versions with a namespace for the current version is what I'm saying. Articles of previous versions will retain their respective namespaces. Users will still type "40d:Cat" to go to the 40d version of the article, but if they want the current version, they'll just type "Cat" (like now). The mainspace containing the "live" version of an article is natural and would create no uncertainty when browsing the wiki. And it would simplify the wiki somewhat and future-proof this anachronism problem. As a bonus, this change will also prevent web search engines from showing previous version pages when typing "DF cat" or something. (This isn't happening right now as DF2014 has been the current namespace for ~6 years, but it'll happen again when everything moves to a new namespace.)

This is the gist of it, and I may have ignored most of the problems with this proposal. I have personally wished for the whole version namespacing be made less complicated and have been seeking for a solution, and I feel like this is the best way to go about in the future. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:27, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:<s>Whoops, looks like Loci already proposed this exact thing long ago. I definitely missed that discussion and should have checked first. My apologies. I'll move my text to that section and remove this one. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:36, 14 August 2020 (UTC)</s> Done. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:40, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:The main issue I have with that is that putting pages about the current version in a namespace also differentiates between those pages and pages not about ''any'' version (for example, [[Toady One]] does not need a 40d or v0.34 page). Yes, we can use {{tl|av}} to mark versioned pages, but people often forget to add that to new pages. The current system also allows determining whether a page is versioned or not from its title, which makes migrations a lot faster. Relying on {{tl|av}} would require either reading the content of every page (which would slow scripts down significantly) or cross-checking with the list of all pages including the template (feasible, but a bit more complicated, and still susceptible to missing templates). I suppose that manually fixing and migrating pages missing {{tl|av}} later wouldn't be too much work, though.
:I am definitely in favor of changing "DF2014" (or a new namespace) to "Current", though. I was in favor of "DF2014" in 2014, but I don't think it makes sense anymore, and "Current" seemed to be a popular alternative in both the DF2012 and DF2014 discussions on the matter. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

== Weird redirect behaviour ==

[[Pump stack]] redirects to [[cv:Screw pump#Pump stack]]. If you look at the redirect itself it says it redirects to DF2014 namespace, which is correct. But if you actually follow the redirect, it goes to v0.34 namespace. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 16:10, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
:Yeah, that's part of the issue described in the above section (the wiki caching part, not on Google's end.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:00, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

== v50 organization ==

Some wiki admins have had a talk on Discord and decided that the most sustainable path forward is to put content for all future versions of DF in the main namespace. We will be working on a bot to do this in the next few days. Feel free to chime in with suggestions here. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

:Is it maybe possible to do backwards-namespacing? Like we have a "Main" namespace, which people are free to update, and whenever there's a new version of DF the "Main" namespace is copied into a namespace for the then old version, much like how you'd branch a stable branch from a development branch when working with a git-project? [[User:Therahedwig|Therahedwig]] ([[User talk:Therahedwig|talk]]) 23:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

::Yeah, we could do that if we decide to. We were talking about doing that for v50, actually, and might still do something similar to preserve edit history if it doesn't end up being too hard to automate. Our hope is that we will not introduce new namespaces for v50 -> v5x, unless there is a serious breaking change (and hopefully there isn't one). But if we change our mind, one advantage of the type of migration you mentioned is that it can be done retroactively - we can copy historical revisions that were current at the time of the release, and would only lose some typo fixes made after the release that apply to earlier versions as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:11, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

ETA is < 24 hours. Doing some final checks on a migration script. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 07:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

: We should really have a task list as there are many things that change and need updating. Including but not limited to:
:* Most templates that used the previous namespace convention broke, including nav templates.
:* Many game files changed locations and their pages need to be updated.
:* Raws need to be updated.
:* Various features added, changed, removed.
:* UI has been changed -- though I am more inclined to wait for classic release to avoid extra work --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

"''Raws need to be updated.''" Including applying text wraparound where necessary, I suppose - more than a few of them have proven to be that special kind of...''difficult'' to navigate otherwise, shall we say? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 12:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:There is already a task list in the [[#v50 migration|section below]] that includes templates and raws, with an explanation. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

== v50 migration ==

The initial migration script is done. New content is in the '''main''' namespace, e.g. [[Cat]]. Old content is still at [[DF2014:Cat]]. History was migrated to the ''new'' (main namespace) articles.

I know several things are broken still. Please reply if you find any others:
<div style="border-left: 2px solid red">
* <s>Versioned templates haven't been migrated yet (e.g. {{tl|vermin}} on [[Ant]])</s>
** Fixed. Most were migrated by a bot.
* <s>Raws are missing on all pages that use them.</s>
** This also affects sidebars, such as on [[Cat]] and [[Microcline]].
** Update: The DFRawFunctions extension has been upgraded to include v50 raws, using the "v50:" prefix for filenames instead of "DF2014:". <s>I haven't finished a migration script to create the /raw pages themselves, but they can typically be created manually by copying the DF2014 /raw pages and changing "DF2014" to "v50" everywhere.</s> —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
** Update 2: Raws have been added for all pages! They were copied from the "DF2014" pages and had "DF2014" replaced with "v50", which appears to have worked from a spot-check, but let me know if you find any problems. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
* Some pages where the DF2014 page was a redirect to a main namespace page that contained content were migrated incorrectly.
** In this case, the main namespace page is usually a redirect to itself. This can be fixed by undoing LethosorBot's edit to the main namespace page, then copying the content to the DF2014 page.
** Update: most seem to have been fixed manually - thanks! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* <s>Some main-namespace talk pages redirect to DF2014 talk pages. Some of these redirects work, and some (usually older ones) do not.</s>
** Fixed with a bot. Some redirects from talk pages to other deleted talk pages are now broken, e.g. [[Talk:Above_ground]] (exists) -> [[Talk:Tile attributes]] (redlink). I am leaving them like that because they redirect to where the talk page should be created, but I'm also fine with people deleting them if they really want to. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* {{tl|quality}} for new articles is disabled (see below)
* Some links from DF2014 to Main weren't working: e.g. the version selector [[DF2014:Mason's workshop]] was linking to [[DF2014:Main:Mason's workshop]] instead of [[Main:Mason's workshop]]. I'm not sure exactly why, but I fixed it with a change to the NamespaceLinks extension. Let me know if you spot similar broken links. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:19, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
</div>

—[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:54, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:The quality levels of the 50.03 pages seem to be missing. I'm not sure if that's covered under that first point. [[User:Trainzack|Trainzack]] ([[User talk:Trainzack|talk]]) 06:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::If the the [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Quality]] feature can be made to work with namespace scheme change, I suggest to automatically assign the lowest quality rating to all pages, alternately add the {{tl|old}} to all pages. Otherwise there will be a lot of pages that will fall through the cracks. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::I disabled {{tl|quality}} in the main namespace because it would require some rework to make the rating script and the template work properly there. Feel free to take a stab at the template. I will see what can be done on the extension side. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::What needs to be done on the template side? I'm not sure I see too big of an issue leaving pages as "unknown-quality" for now (or just change the default to tattered) until we get the rating script working. Is that script up anywhere, anything that could be helped with? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:10, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::They're already marked as unknown. Really the only issue I know of with the template is that it doesn't show up with some of the newer skins we added, and that can be fixed by getting rid of the absolute positioning. As for the script, it can be found at https://github.com/DF-Wiki/QualityRatings, and the issue is really only with the configuration system not recognizing the main namespace as valid. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:29, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::Great, I started having a crack at fixing the template with different themes. Is the preference to get some CSS going and then include it in the global stylesheet (i.e different styles per theme) or to try and get a "one size fits all" fix? —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 08:14, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I would rather avoid custom site-wide CSS if we can. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I appreciate that, I think it's the simplest solution to add a few lines to common.css though. Unless there is a way to attach CSS specifically to a template, I saw a few extensions that allowed that but I'm not sure if any are present in the wiki at the moment. Regardless there already exists a class `div.topicon` that is specifically for the quality ratings, is there an issue with expanding this class to accommodate the themes? The list of themes where the quality rating display is broken/invisible: Citizen, MinervaNeue, MonoBook. —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 21:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::What do you think of moving the template out of the topicon entirely and just placing it in a div? It would take up a (hopefully) small amount of vertical space in the article. [[User:Lethosor/Sandbox/Quality_test]] is an example. Unfortunately it isn't possible to prevent other templates from displaying above the quality this way ([https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User:Lethosor/Sandbox/Quality_test&oldid=283883]). So maybe we do need some custom CSS after all if we want that. I'm open to trying out whatever you propose. I'm a bit worried about future-proofing against skins we add later (particularly a mobile skin) but at least MediaWiki supports skin-specific global CSS as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:33, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::I would rather we avoid taking any more vertical space in the article. The growing block pyramid at the top, starting with version template, is annoying. If you end up placing it inside the article space please use a slim box 100% wide that would include both.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 01:19, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::Agreed with you Jan, however I see that as two different tasks (ArticleVersion template changes, getting quality back on pages). I made a test adjustment to the quality and it takes up a negligable amount of extra space. See [[User:Vallode/sandbox#Page_quality]] for the example, we'd be able to completely remove "topicon" (unless it is used somewhere else?) and then potentially move on to making the ArticleVersion template into a slim version on the left-hand-side instead of a large box? Let me know what you think. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:35, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

It appears some pages are redirecting recursively and never resolving correctly, like the [[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Character_table&redirect=no|character table]] and [[tileset repository]] 07:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
: Indeed, these can be caught here: [[Special:DoubleRedirects]] --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

It might be useful to change the notice title to "release information '''for editors'''" --[[Special:Contributions/142.59.195.176|142.59.195.176]] 10:26, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Can do. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::New here, hello. Should we set a date where we remove/only show the banner for logged in users. There are (some) pages that have 4 different notices about the upgrade. [[Engraving]] is one such page, the top banner states "information for editors", we then have the "this page was migrated" banner, a version selection which warns the article might be inaccurate, and a smaller banner saying the page might need to be updated. Quite a lot of screen space, I think we can start to slowly reduce the amount of warnings this coming month? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 10:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Unfortunately, only showing info to logged-in users is difficult with how MediaWiki caching works. In terms of reducing warnings, there is a discussion [[Template_talk:ArticleVersion#.22Note_that_some_content_may_still_need_to_be_updated..22|here]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:43, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::As for [[Engraving]] specifically, the {{tl|old}} banner was actually present on [[DF2014:Engraving]] as well and got carried over with the migration. I removed it, and agree that it was redundant. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:46, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Main talkpages seem to redirect to DF2014 talk. Not sure if it is intentional but I like it, though we should pay attention when creating new discussion relating to v50 ending up there.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 14:18, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:That's unintentional. I specifically wrote the migration script to not move talk pages, but that has the side-effect of leaving any previously-created "Talk -> DF2014 talk" redirects intact. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Yo Lethosor, are we adding graphic sprites for the pages in some way? Or are we waiting for you to add some sort of new template or something? I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that the current templates don't allow that. Not sure if I'm allowed to change/create any templates either, as I don't want to break things for hundreds of pages. Edit: And IF the icons are allowed, should they be left alone, or 2×-3× sized like how the Minecraft wiki does it? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 14:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Depends on which templates you mean. There are copyright concerns with uploading a premium sprite sheet, for instance. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm not talking about uploading an entire sprite sheet. I'm just talking about individual icons for each respective page. One image for cows, one for horses, one for werebeasts, etc. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 16:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::If we do that for every creature in the sprite sheet, that's not much different (in terms of copyright) from uploading the entire sprite sheet. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:09, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::Is there someone we can talk to about that? We finally get this new game with graphics, and then we can't use the very graphics of the game? No matter what the rules are, I'd say that would be the stupidest thing ever. I know I'm infamous here when it comes to copyright and images and stuff, but about 80% of game wikis out there are completely unofficial, and use game file images like no one's business. I can't imagine anyone's door being knocked on if we used the game's sprites, but I won't add any here until we have a go-ahead. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 17:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::...I've made noise in Mayday's direction on this matter, at least (prob an incorrect maneuver, ''but'').[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 17:55, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: I hope some sort of arrangement can be made so we can use the new sprites with permission/limits, just as we are using the raw files. Otherwise we are all (devs and editors alike) shooting ourselves in the foot here.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::I just thought of something. We're supposedly not allowed to upload entire sprite sheets, right? What if - for the time being - we just use a few of them for the purpose of testing out new infoboxes? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 21:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::I don't know. If someone could ask Kitfox and post the response here, that would be great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::::I've reached out to Alexandra, but she hasn't answered yet. Until then I found these old approvals from the previous community manager, Feeona: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8243633#msg8243633 link1], [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=176640.msg8243642#msg8243642 link2]). Waiting for a newer response until we begin mass uploads is probably the politer option, but like Zippy said, it is also standard for wikis to use game sprites with less approval. I second their idea of trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. On the extreme off-chance (and I do think it is) Kitfox protests we can always remove these few. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:19, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::And here is a third, more official statement: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8249718#msg8249718 link3]). Perhaps that address of info@kitfoxgames.com is the better channel to ask for a confirmation, rather than Discord DMs, but I will be going to bed, so it is best if someone else does that. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::Thanks for tracking this down! Ok, sprites should be fine, but let's avoid uploading the entire premium tileset as a single image, for instance (as the forum thread says, "use common sense"). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::: Looks good, permission is always preferable over fairuse, I think it is a win win for all involved. I agree that we shouldn't upload entire sprite sheets (e.g. there is no reason to upload the windmill from every direction or whole construction phase for workshops) and that there are a lot of details that needs to be ironed out through testing. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 05:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::We have a green light on uploading all and any sprites. Their response to me can be seen [https://i.imgur.com/BhmHjzC.png here]. I'm sure someone else confirmed it before me. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:00, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Shifting temporarily to a new issue, is the documentation of [[Template:ArticleVersion]] outdated? It would seem so to me, since the current version no longer has its own namespace, with the templates needing updating being different ones. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 18:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:I think it is still accurate enough. We left open the possibility of making another namespace in the future, albeit with a different migration strategy - see [[#v50 organization|above]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Some Changes to infoboxes might be needed. Too bad [[User:Doorkeeper]] isn't around. He did a great work with navbox project--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:52, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

I just realized that raw files aren't stored as regular wiki pages but loaded via the DFRawFunctions extension (hence the need to update). Good news it's going to be handled in bulk, consistently and relatively easy to updated. Even better it's Lethosor problem ;) Also I just realized that all the "raw files" (txt files in the new vanilla folder) are released into the public domain. Both are probably not news to the vets but I'll leave it here for those who less up to date like myself. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:35, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: I noticed that some templates aren't working properly in the new namespace, e.g. [[Basalt]] entry had its raw updated manually but the infobox fail to show any details. Cursory look suggest {{t|layerlookup/0}} need a minor tweak. This should do the work
:: Replace: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
:: With___: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{</nowiki>:<nowiki>{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
: Not sure what the plan and ETA with raws update so I didn't touch this high usage template for now. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 08:11, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

::Please do feel free to make this update. I am still working on a script to create the <code>/raw</code> pages themselves. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be an idea to add to the Sitenotice to remove the {{tl|migrated article}} tag when an article has been fully updated? I see many articles that seem to be updated still have the tag. And/or advise to make use of the {{tl|verify}} for sections still in need of checking? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 10:12, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:Probably a good shout. The "see this page" link does include the detail on removing but we should more explicitly encourage removing the banner once a page has at least been looked over. [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:01, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

== v50 specific issues ==
=== Graphics===
Follow up on the use of game sprites and the need to trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. First sprite [[:File:Beds v50.png]] was uploaded and used on [[Bed]] entry. Any thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Seems like it should be rearranged to be horizontal. Also, has there been a serious discussion about copyright? Full screenshots are 100% fine, but you start going into a grey area when you upload pieces of a spritesheet. I'm of the opinion that it's all fine as long as it's inconvenient to reconstruct the full sheet from the individual images. Maybe a further restriction could be you shouldn't upload any of the art unless it's used in an infobox (maybe an exception for pieces of the UI). And one more restriction could be you shouldn't show everything, like in your bed example, maybe just the wooden bed is good enough, leave out the stone and metal, especially since those can only be made from strange moods. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:43, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::Actually, your bed image is kinda bad for showing off what a bed looks like because it doesn't show the pillow/blankets. That might point to cropped screenshots being the best path, although less convenient for the uploader, as you don't get details left out. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:46, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::I created a new license template [[Template:Copyright game]], based it on the way the RimWorld wiki does things. Call it a prototype, but it's probably how your bed image should be labelled. Indeed, I added it to it already. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]])

::: I agree that the horizontal arrangement would suit better here and that we should strive to represent how things look in-game. Otherwise, I am not too concerned about people being able to reconstruct anything (lets just say that ''anyone'' interested in that can get the real thing from the game files), also it seem we have permission to use the sprits on top of fairuse. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 19:55, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

::: Modifying the existing template to allow the inclusion of the new sprites is easy (Something like [https://ibb.co/zFXCrjd this]?) The big question is the matter of consistency is there any exceptions that will break the format (size wise with variant bloat for example), the sprite naming format, etc --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:44, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::: If we are going to show a variant for each material type, then maybe these should be added as separate images so we can add a tooltip for each image. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:49, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

:I've got another prototype going here and here: [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]] and [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox]]. (You'll need to add the css stuff to your own /vector.css). Basically it's a way to recolor images using css classes. No idea if there's a better way. Also, the real implementation would require a change to [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Should mention, there ''is'' a different way, just upload each image 16 times, one for each coloring. But maybe that's not very elegant. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:45, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

: It should be noted that soon the classic edition will be released, hence one should plan to have both the Premium and classic alongside in that little space --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:14, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm looking into a tab extension to potentially support this in infoboxes. Perhaps [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Tabs Extension:Tabs]? I tried [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TabberNeue Extension:TabberNeue], but it displays a placeholder if JavaScript is disabled, which isn't great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: The Neue Tabber seem to works pretty much like the old one (which fandom [https://coding-help.fandom.com/wiki/Tabber#Adding_images_into_tabbers still use]) defaulting to showing the first tab only. Quick look suggest that neue work the same, plus the notice that 'Tabber requires Javascript to function' warning? if so, and if it is a bother, then you should be able to edit out the tabberneue-noscript string in code. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:29, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: I much prefer your tabber solution, but if that fails we can also use the gallery slideshow mode. If so, beware it has no way to control image size so the images have to be maliciously uploaded using the exact same size. example:
<gallery mode="slideshow">
File:SteelSample.png
File:TinSample.png
File:ZincSample.png
File:GoldSample.png
</gallery> --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

==== adding premium set to Infobox ====
I am unclear where are we going with this? 
1) Will (A) tabs be implemented, (B) we be using mediawiki toggle [[Template_talk:V50_workshop|example]] for premium and classic/blocked, (c) put images side by side, or (d) something else? 
2) Also [[silver]] and [[Pig iron]] use very different image style for example. 
3) Anything else you want ? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

: Personally, I would love tabs to be implemented, but I think that side by side might be best for most. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
: Here is rough layout we can use. It should fit most buildings given the default sprite size. There is also a different floor plan for both (inspired by reddit)

{|
|- valign=top
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 5×5
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>
|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|colspan=2|<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">
[[File:Siege workshop.png|center|160px]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab"">
{|
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%; font-size: 125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Siege workshop}}</center>
|style="line-height: 1em; font-size: 125%;"|
{| style="border-spacing:4px;"
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 3×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|colspan=2 style="text-align: right;"|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="float:left; border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%;"|
<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">[[File:Carpenter's workshop.png]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab""><center>
{| style="font-size: 175%; border-spacing: 0; background-color: black; border: 2px solid black"
|- 
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|"|7:0:0}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|{{=}}|6:0:0}}
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|]|0:0:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
|}</center></div>
|
{| style="border-spacing:5px;"
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×1
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:Screw_press.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Screw press}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Screw press}}</center>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:water_wheel.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Water wheel}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;line-height:normal;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Water wheel}}</center>
|}
|}
:Any thoughts on the direction and or any and all of its elements? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:16, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

::I kind of like side-by-side, if it fits. If anyone wants to implement a toggle button or tabs, I would ask that that be implemented in a template for now, so that e.g. we could change a toggle button to tabs in a single place if we decide to install an extension to support that. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

::: I noticed a comment saying that [[impassable tile]] are no longer used in v50, is that true for all constructions? If so, floor plans are no longer needed, making things much easier as we can fit everything in except the 5v5 constructions like trade depot (and even these can be placed one above the other if so desired). If not, any thought on the alternative floor plan design? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

:::: None of the constructions have blocking tiles any more from my experience playing. I haven't tested siege weaponry with that stuff, but none of the workshops have it, nor does any furniture. (walls and fortifications will of course obstruct movement [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 18:47, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
::::: Ok, I have removed them from v50. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I have added a basic side by side variant to [[Template:V50 workshop]] and [[Template:Building]] for testing, let us know if there any issues. Few notes:
* The default image naming scheme of <code>workshop-name.png</code> will likely conflict with existing images here or on commons, maybe another naming scheme should be used like <code>v50 workshop-name.png</code> as it is with ascii pictures.
* There is inconsistency in image size. If you want to use large zoomed images then toggle is best, otherwise they need to be all in native size (96px for 3x3).
* In the current version the code roughly centers the images and if there is a big image like with [[Siege workshop]] it drops to a new line --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

How about combining shortcut keys and the new menu icons:
<div style="color:white; font-size: large; text-shadow: -1px -1px 0 #000, 1px -1px 0 #000, -1px 1px 0 #000, 1px 1px 0 #000;">[[File:Ui b.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">b</div>[[File:Ui bo.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">o</div>[[File:Ui bol.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div>[[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div></div>
--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 02:24, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

:I worry that this is difficult to read (I read it as "boil" at first). I would rather use something like {{tl|k}} with a known background. What about something like this? [[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:0px;">{{k|l}}</div> or, alternatively, using flexbox without any overlap: [[File:Ui boll.png]]{{k|l}} —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:37, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Same, but that is the best I came up with. We can use the key or maybe someone can help improve the design. Also 'l' is hard to read even with {{t|key}}.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:05, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: I added a {{t|Menu icon}} to start things so others can have a go with it. Also any thoughts on the icon naming convention (their shortcut sequence), is there easier/better way? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:36, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::[[User:BarelyCreative]] updated the template: {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y}}. I think it looks good, thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::I like that, yeah. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::There were some places where it didn't make sense so display every icon all the time (like step-by-step guides), so I changed it slightly to allow display of fewer icons using "num" and counting from the end: <nowiki>{{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-;|num=2}}</nowiki> {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-|num=2}} [[User:BarelyCreative|BarelyCreative]] ([[User talk:BarelyCreative|talk]]) 09:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

==== Bizarre palette-swapping idea/prototype ====
No idea if this is a good idea, since it takes a bit of time to set up, and there might be some performance issues... and maybe display issues?

But take a look at this:
{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=amber}}

It's way to swap palettes on an image, although the image itself is a table, with each cell representing a pixel. The template itself looks like this:
<code><nowiki>{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=saffron}}</nowiki></code>
Input the pattern and desired palette name.

I've got a larger showcase here: [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase]]. Only did a rock pattern so far, but all palettes are implemented.
The major use for this would be on each stone, metal, wood, etc. type's page. The palette could be read directly from the raws. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 03:22, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

:From a technical perspective, my primary concern is indeed performance. Both on the server side and client side, a large number of tables that large (in terms of markup and cell count, that is) tend to be resource-intensive to generate and render. I saw your image-filtering experiments on [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]], and while that strikes me as a newer and less-backwards-compatible approach, it would probably be more resource-friendly.
:Is this color adjustment something the game is doing natively? i.e. does this accurately match what the game displays? I bet we could slap together an image-filtering extension (or find an existing one?) that can do this if needed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::Yeah that's what I suspected. The images the template creates are spot on, checked it against a screenshot I took of some mica rocks in-game. The css stuff is unfortunately totally incorrect, was cool to learn about it though, so not a complete waste of my time :p. The premium, in-game graphics are true sprites, basically patterns of indexed colors. Each of the in-game colors (which are significantly expanded over the 16 ascii colors, there's 116/117) there is a palette defined in "\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_descriptors_graphics\graphics\images\palettes.png". Each indexed color of the sprite is swapped for the corresponding color in the palette. Because of that, the css stuff doesn't work since it's doing the hue/saturation/brightness changes to the entire sprite.
::I've looked into an existing mediawiki extension, couldn't find anything. One thing I did't really look at is some type of lua script/module that would basically emulate what the game is doing. So some function that takes in the base image as well as the desired palette, and based on that finds and replaces each color. No idea what mediawiki's capabilities are on that front. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 05:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
:::We do have Scribunto installed now, so it's totally possible to do something in Lua too - forgot about that. I can add you to the group that grants access to edit the Module namespace if you want to give that a shot. If we use an extension, we'd probably need a custom one, similar to DFDiagram (or perhaps DFDiagram could be extended - it's in dire need of a rewrite anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:43, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::::I asked around on the mediawiki irc, I think scribunto/lua is a deadend, at least for taking an uploaded image and doing stuff to it with a lua script. However I did come up with this even more bizarre solution, using block elements. [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase2]], maybe less resource intensive? Definitely displays a lot worse though, probably unusable.
::::{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock2|palette-name=saffron}}
::::I dunno, maybe none of this is worth it and we should just write some external program to put all the images together offline, and then just mass upload. It wouldn't be ''that'' many... [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 06:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

====Is there an easy way to just paste images from the clipboard?====

I use KDE spectacle to take screenshots straight to the clipboard (after cropping) -- is there an easy way to just paste (and auto-upload) an image into an article? It would make it a lot easier to contribute images. [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:35, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Unfortunately there is not. I would be open to a MediaWiki extension to support this if someone finds one. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Looks like this could do it, but I haven't used it before: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SimpleBatchUpload [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 19:41, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::: It won't solve paste-from-clipboard, but this would be great for making uploading sprites much easier (auto-cutup spritesheet, rename, bulk upload). Could you add this, Lethosor? [[User:OddballJoe|OddballJoe]] ([[User talk:OddballJoe|talk]]) 21:47, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

====Standards for adding graphical version screenshots and images====

Hello, new user looking into adding imagery from the new version. Is there a standard for quality of new screenshots or images? I noticed that at a certain zoom level (2 zooms in from the furthest zoomed-out view), the graphics appear crisp and 1:1 pixel scaled, and I would propose that all images be taken at this scale whenever possible. If they need to be displayed larger, they should be nearest neighbor scaled in a photo editing program at 100% increments (Microsoft Paint will do this if you first select the image rather than directly scaling the whole canvas). I would also propose that images should be cropped to conform to the 32x32 pixel grid when possible, though this could be problematic with so many new graphical elements exceeding the bounds of their tiles. I would say the best practice for capturing artwork for items, furniture etc. ought to be done in a 3x3 open area to avoid shadows from nearby walls, or else extracted from the raw files (if this doesn't run afoul of being able to re-create the graphical version using those assets).

I know that perfect is the enemy of good, and any documentation is better than none, but just thought I'd ask about this, and see if/where something like this ought to be posted. [[User:Unclesporky|Unclesporky]] ([[User talk:Unclesporky|talk]]) 13:58, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:It has been stated in [[Template:V50 workshop]] that <q>screenshots should be at the "native" resolution</q> but someone could edit the [[Screenshot]] page for best practice for the steam version. Or post some examples in [[Talk:Screenshot]] to find out what is best? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:21, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

====How would I/should I go about putting creature sprites on their pages?====

Howdy. New player and wiki user here. I wanted to try and help update the wiki to the Steam release of DF, so I figured I'd chip in by putting each creature's sprites on their respective page, since I'll often look up a creature I have yet to see in game only to be met by a blue J, or whatever. I found all of the game's creature sprites in C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_creatures_graphics\graphics\images, so I figured I could just chop those up in Photoshop and stick them on here no problem, but the programming syntax/whatever it is on this site is incredibly confusing, I don't know how I'd actually go about doing it. I figured I'd just find the spot on the page where the little letter is and replace that with the image code, but it seems the pages are built using heavily nested templates that I can't even begin to understand. Any help?--[[User:Treese|Treese]] ([[User talk:Treese|talk]]) 03:07, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:Based on [[User:Zippy|Zippy]]'s work at {{tl|Creaturelookup_b}}, I added an "image" parameter to {{tl|creaturelookup/0}}, which is what creature pages should all be using. See [[Dwarf]] and [[Cow]] for examples. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:37, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Hotkeys/Menu navigation ===
Most key bindings and menus have changed. Should the article reflect a) only the old version, b) only the GUI version or c) both? For example, [[Bridge|bridges]] used to be built via {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}, but now it's in Place strucutures {{k|b}} -> Constructions {{k|n}} -> Bridge {{k|b}}. What should be written in the article? Currently, it's {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}. I ''think'' it should be only b), but I am not sure if there will be differences regarding hotkeys or menus between the premium version and the free version and then, c) would be the most appropriate option. --[[User:Prometherus|Prometherus]] ([[User talk:Prometherus|talk]]) 10:16, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: Not sure. I wish the classic release soon --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 16:45, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: Are you Toady's herald? Looks like it was just released! [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:18, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: And our questions are answered, the old hotkeys seem to have been thrown out. Part of me is disappointed (useless muscle memory) but also relieved (unified UI for both versions is good in general and for the wiki). [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:25, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: According to info, in a sort of 'demo version' at that. I'll wait a little while longer, for myself.[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::::It's unlikely that keybindings in it will change significantly. My vote is that we should include information for both premium and classic, everywhere. Hopefully the keybindings are not different between versions. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:26, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::Shouldn't it be based on the 50 or what verion the article is written for? [[User:Dominick|Dominick]] [[User_talk:dominick|(TALK)]] 18:42, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::: The keybindings seem to be consistent between versions, (haven't checked exhausitvely, but since the menu layout is the same I think it is a good assumption). Should also keep in mind/consider that not all actions have keybindings. An option would be write 'Click on the <Example Text> icon or press {{k|E}}' [[User:Koos|Koos]] ([[User talk:Koos|talk]]) 23:14, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

=== Removed features & concepts ===

Since they're removed concepts, I've set [[Room]] to be a redirect for [[DF2014:Room]] and created [[Template:Activity zones]] for the nav bar bedrooms, etc, and made the necessary changes to [[Bedroom]] for it. Is this the correct approach, before I go on much further? (also a note, if it is, then [[Template:v50_rooms]] probably needs to be deleted) I also imagine that considering the number of changes in the interface, that things like [[Adventure mode]] and related pages might best be truncated to "not in 50.03" and when it does make it across, being more deliberately brought over in pieces? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 06:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:Usually it is marked with [[Template:Removed_feature]]. For example: [[Dipscript]] or [[Party]]. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:45, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:: Ah, that's fair. Should that be mentioned in [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Versions#Redirects]]? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 10:03, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::I think the redirect policy mostly had in mind things that were removed a ''long'' time ago, like [[Tax collector]] and [[Economy]] (and the latter actually has a stub page as well). I guess we could clarify. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:34, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: The "current" redirects also cause the version box to incorrectly show that the current version has a page - e.g. [[23a:Cave_river]] shows a v50.04 version, but it's just a redirect back to that version. Similarly, what should happen to redirects like [[Clothes maker]], where a concept has evolved? It currently goes to [[23a:Clothes maker]] - that's correct if the user is trying to look up a very old concept, but if a new user is looking for "how to make clothes", they should be directed to [[Clothier]]. --[[User:Danny252|Danny252]] ([[User talk:Danny252|talk]]) 12:16, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: One should be careful with cv redirects. Most that were recently adjusted were unused plural forms (that should probably be deleted) but few like [[Crown]] needed that for backward compatibility. Removing the [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&type=revision&diff=279966&oldid=219482 cv part] means the the link on [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is now broken. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 22:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::If [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is about v0.31, it should not be using "main:" in its links - ''all'' of those links are going to pages about v50, not v0.31, regardless of whether the target is a redirect or not. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:37, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: You right, I removed it. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 17:55, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Crown cv redir issue is now fixed, I believe. As goes with such cases where one can simply revert the troublesome edit, unless I've mistepped, myself? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 23:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:Both [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=280026] and [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=279966] should not have had any effect, because "cv" is an alias to the main namespace now, just like "main". Proof: [[Crown]], [[cv:Crown]], [[main:Crown]]. It's possible caching is coming into play here, although I purged the redirect cache after making that alias change earlier this month... —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:02, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

I think there have been some changes not captured, but as a newb, I'm afraid to edit the page(s). A good example is Strawberry. I'm playing the Steam version right now and Strawberry plants are "not relevant to brewing" in Labor > kitchen > veg / fruit / leaves. Unless I'm mistaken and need to process them? Another example is the trade caravan = it seems the 3 square pathing no longer happens; it's just yak(s). 12:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC) 12:29, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
:Strawberries should be brewable according to the Raws.
:Trade wagons has been modified in v50. The first wagons will arrive at the same time your fort is becoming a barony. Until then, it's only pack animals and stairs are indeed fine. The [[Trading]] page needs a huge rework anyway... I'll try to do that next week. --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

<s>As far as I can tell, none of the workshop buildings in v50 have blocking tiles any more. There's a comment to the like in data/vanilla/vanilla_buildings/objects/building_custom.txt that says this "[BLOCK:1:0:0:0] workbenches no longer block". Hesitant to update that template as I'm not sure if it's referenced for all of the old versions too. </s> [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 05:54, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
: A new template has been created: {{tl|V50 workshop}} --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::Thanks! In general, I would like to delegate the switching responsibility to the template (like how {{tl|creaturelookup/0}} works), but in cases where the parameters diverge significantly like with workshops, it could make sense to make an entirely new template. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

=== creature infobox prototype (moved) ===

Check it out, I made a temporary template and added it to the [[cow]]s page. Now it shows the sprites (but not the zombified versions yet). I wanted to show everyone a prototype of what v50 creature infoboxes should look like. Or at least something similar to it. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:11, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
:Hi, I'm new to editing wikis but I have done a bit of work with sprite sheets and I've been going through the DF data files to find the different graphics hoping to help with the animal pages. I've thrown together a template with grass and a few nature sprites (plants, a tree, and a rock) for size reference but I'm unsure how large the 'display' tiles in the middle of the template should be to suit all animals. I can see in the sprite sheets that some land animals have an adult and child sprite, so two tiles. Others have a male, female, and child, but after seeing you include the zombie cows I'm unsure if I should make it twice the size to add them too. Alternatively, I could grab some tiles from the haunted biomes for the zombie animals and make a separate template for a side-by-side comparison. Either way, let me know if this helps. I'd like to help with other graphics too as we add the premium tilesets but the animals seemed the easiest to tackle with me being new to wiki editing. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::@Zippy, I am a bit perplexed about the purple cows. Why do we need a zombified version of creatures on every page?
::@UristTheSeventh, we can use all the help. Maybe post an example, so that we can have something to compare and contrast.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::@Jan Here are the examples:
:::[[File:Creature template.png]] [[File:Armadillo.png]] [[File:Seagull.png]]
:::It'll need to be wider or arranged differently for different creatures with more that two sprites or for multi-tile creatures. I can also do an aquatic and air themed template for swimming and flying creatures. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::::Looks nice, like the metal template. There are several people working on updating the graphics you should talk more among yourselves. Best I can offer is that I width wise I am hoping to go up to 200px for infoboxes.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 01:13, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:::: We don't exactly ''need'' a zombie sprite on each page. I added it because it was... there. I was also hoping to get some opinions on it anyway since that infobox is a visual prototype, and not a final choice. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:28, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

===Furniture Infobox===
{{Quality|Unrated}}
{{v50_furniture|name=Bed
|graphic=[[File:bed_sprite_prototype.png]]
|tile=Θ|col=6:0:0
|wood=y
|rooms=
* [[Bedroom]]
* [[Barracks]]
* [[Dormitory]]
|value=10}}
I made a v50 furniture template prototype. I tested this on Firefox, Chrome and Microsoft Edge/Internet Explorer and it looks fine on all of them. I hope this is good enough to be the official thing, unless I'm missing something. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:28, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
{{clear}}

=== When do we remove the migration note on specific pages? ===

At what point can we remove the "this page was auto migrated from v47" warning? There are a bunch of small pages that are more or less accurate, if I've reviewed them, can I go ahead and remove the warning? [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Yes, feel free to remove it if you think all content is accurate. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Any info on fixing "creature description not found?" ===

I see this issue on most creature pages, it seems to be due to a lookup that's not currently functioning? Cows interestingly doesn't have this issue but I couldn't figure out how to recreate whatever fix it's editor did. --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 00:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:That is the missing raws issue described above. Cow was fixed by the addition of [[cow/raw]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:28, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::Ah makes sense, not fully used to the language of wikis yet so I read over it while looking. To put this bit of questioning to rest for any future readers, is it correct that it's fine to update any raws manually, though it will be done automatically at some point? --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 07:48, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Yes. I'm circling back to work on a script right now, so not much point in doing it if you're reading this. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::This should be fixed now. If you continue to see pages with problems, you can try [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Purge purging the cache]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:59, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Adventurer Mode related sections ===

The topic has already been discussed [[#Removed features & concepts|above]], but I don't see a clear line on what to do with article sections that mention Adventurer Mode. Like for example in [[Butcher#Adventurer_mode|Butcher]].

'''a) Truncate''' or '''b) leave in place with a mention''' that the mode is not yet present IG but will be added in a future update?

Personally I think option b) is better, because I think it's silly to undo some work just to reintroduce it a few weeks later, with the necessary corrections. Even if a copy/paste of a previous version takes ~15 seconds, considering the number of articles that need to be corrected, it would be a bit of a waste of time.--[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

== Toggleable image ==

Any objections/comments to using this template for now for toggling between classic and premium images? I'd probably rename it to "Template:Premium-classic thumb image". I'm sure someone can come up with a better UI eventually, but should be easy to migrate at that point. I also think we should use the same customtoggle class for this and for the infobox. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 23:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png
}}

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png|
caption=My caption|
width=100px
}}

:This looks nice to me! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

: Good initiative. From the top of my head:
:* I suggest using a shorthand, no one wants to type 'Premium-classic thumb image'.
:* If we end up using toggle for infoboxes (not sure where we headed there), then I agree definitely same custom toggle class should be used for all, thus allowing to switch premium-classic view on the whole page at a click.
:* The button part on a separate row isn't pretty, creating a lot of dead space that can be used by the text. Are we set on the label 'toggle ascii'? Classic isn't Ascii per se, maybe we can use a 'toggle' with a tooltip {{tooltip|for example|does bla bla bla}}, or maybe we can get rid of the text and have a smaller icon button ([[User:Jan/sandbox#Metal_example|two examples]]).
: I hope that helps. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

:: I added [[Template:Dual image]] with some of your suggestions. Agree that it's not super pretty, feel free to try something different.

::* I put the toggle in the caption mostly because I gave up on trying to make a more sophisticated replacement for the default thumb image behavior, I'm sure someone with better wiki-fu could put together something more intelligent.
::* I cut the text down to just "Toggle"; I think the best solution would be a small graphic showing the old and new dwarf icons with arrows between them. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 19:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

{{Dual image|
premium=File:DFwiki5by53by3farm.png|
classic=File:Quickstart_layout_3.png|
width=100px|
caption=A 5x5 room with a 3x3 farm plot
}}
::: I updated the layout, now it should look just like a regular image thumb. I didn't had time to test it, if it doesn't work for you or you don't like it just revert the last change. cheers. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::::I don't know which part of this talk page to put this, but I added the ability to add icons to the v50 workshops template. Leaving the icon part blank will not break the template in any way. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 09:47, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
{{clear}}
==Creature List Now Supports Graphics!==
I wasn't easy, but I made new templates so the [[Creature]]s page now supports both graphics sprites ''and'' ASCII tiles. Allow me to show you:

{{v50_creaturecurrent_table_head}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:dwarf_sprite.png]]|name=[[Dwarf]]|symbol=☺|color=3:0:0|playable=Fort, Adv|hostile=No|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Mountain halls]], [[Fortress|dwarf fortress]]es, [[hillock]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:elf_sprite.png]]|name=[[Elf]]|symbol=e|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Forest retreat]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:human_sprite.png]]|name=[[Human]]|symbol=U|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=70,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Town]]s and cities|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:goblin_sprite.png]]|name=[[Goblin]]|symbol=g|color=7:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Dark fortress]]es and [[dark pit]]s|note=Snatchers2}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:kobold_sprite.png]]|name=[[Kobold]]|symbol=k|color=6:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=20,000|value=Not tameable|biome=Caves|note=Skulking race}}
|}

Oh wait, there's a bonus. You can also modify the background color of the box the sprites go in. I added that to make possibly-hard-to-see-otherwise sprites more easy to see - depending on the colors it has. Allow me to demonstrate.

{{v50_creaturecurrent_table_head}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:dwarf_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#829ccc|name=[[Dwarf]]|symbol=☺|color=3:0:0|playable=Fort, Adv|hostile=No|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Mountain halls]], [[Fortress|dwarf fortress]]es, [[hillock]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:elf_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#c7dfc0|name=[[Elf]]|symbol=e|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Forest retreat]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:human_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#c7dfc0|name=[[Human]]|symbol=U|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=70,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Town]]s and cities|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:goblin_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#dfc0c0|name=[[Goblin]]|symbol=g|color=7:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Dark fortress]]es and [[dark pit]]s|note=Snatchers2}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:kobold_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#dfc0c0|name=[[Kobold]]|symbol=k|color=6:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=20,000|value=Not tameable|biome=Caves|note=Skulking race}}
|}

To change the background color, add <code><nowiki>|bgcolor=COLOR</nowiki></code> segment after the <code><nowiki>|graphic</nowiki></code> part. You can use color names or HTML hex color codes. I added this to the v50 creatures page, but at this time, I only added the first five creatures I just displayed. It's gonna take a while to find ALL of those creature sprites. I hope a lot of people help out on that one. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 05:29, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

:Thanks, looks nice! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:44, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:Nice stuff, took the quick liberty to change the padding-left -> text-align to make all the sprites center aligned relative to each other :) Sweet work --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:41, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Good work indeed. One minor issue, is that all the sprites have different sizes, which sometimes create slight variation in table row height. Consider using capping the image size vertically for example <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px]]</nowiki></code>--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:15, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Also often in such tables people want to click on the image to go for the specific entry, and often will try to click on the very first thing they see in line the thumb image, but currently that will take them to the file page. Consider adding link parameter for example: <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=dwarf]]</nowiki></code> [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=dwarf]] or no link at all <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=]]</nowiki></code> [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=]] --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:24, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
::: I mean... Yeah, I could do that. I think that lessens the quality of the sprite a bit because it makes edges blurry, but either way is fine. I could have sworn I added a link for all those images the first time. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:23, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::::Since we are adding pixel art sprites to the website it might be convincing to add a global class like .sprite or .pixel-image that uses the CSS attribute `image-rendering: pixelated;` in order to prevent blurryness when scaling the image up/down. Just a thought --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 09:40, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::Are we able to attach classes directly to images? If so, we can probably attach inline styles directly as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:52, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::Looks like (without an extension) MediaWiki only supports classes on images: [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|class=pixelated]] and not styles: [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|style="image-rendering: pixelated;"]] it just treats it as alt text it looks like? Wrapping it in a div works and demonstrates the difference: <div style="image-rendering: pixelated;display:inline;">[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|64px]]</div> [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|64px|inline]]. Speaking from experience, however, image-rendering needs a browser specific prefix in certain browsers (safari, for example) in order to work properly. I'm not entirely sure what the best "MediaWiki" practice is for adding something like this but I would assume it's a simple class in common.css for now. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:17, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Ah, yeah, you are correct, I should have checked https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Images. I'd be fine adding a class like that to common.css. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:27, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Great, in that case if no one is opposed we can add `.game-sprite` or something like that? See below for the CSS, the order of the attributes is relevant. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 18:23, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
<pre>/* Used for pixel-art images from the game so they can be resized and maintain crisp pixel edges. */
.game-sprite {
image-rendering: -webkit-optimize-contrast;
image-rendering: crisp-edges;
image-rendering: pixelated;
}</pre>
{{clear}}
=== Graphics in Skill Infoboxes ===
{{v50_skill
| color = 7:0
| graphic = [[File:miner_sprite_icon.png]]
| skill = Miner
| profession = Miner
| job name = [[Mining]]
| tasks =
* [[Dig]]
| attributes =
* Strength
* Toughness
* Endurance
* Willpower
* Spatial Sense
* Kinesthetic Sense}}I've made yet another visual prototype for skills. In other words, we can put sprites of matching dwarves (and possibly humans, elves, goblins, etc.) at the top of infoboxes. If multiple images are put up there, that can mess up the alignment, but don't worry, Zippy thought of that. <code><nowiki>|graphicmargin</nowiki></code> can added, and a percentage or a "px" number can be placed in that parameter to fix it. If you leave said parameter out, the alignment will default to about 42% from the left. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 06:06, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
<pre><nowiki>
{{v50_skill
| color = 7:0
| graphic = [[File:miner_sprite_icon.png]]
| graphicmargin = (OPTIONAL)
| skill = Miner
| profession = Miner
| job name = [[Mining]]
| tasks =
* [[Dig]]
| attributes =
* Strength
* Toughness
* Endurance
* Willpower
* Spatial Sense
* Kinesthetic Sense}}
</nowiki></pre>
::Not sure I understand the alignment issue, can you not put text-align: center on the parent table element instead of messing with explicit margins? As another sidenote, should we continue to be naming all of these templates v50_x, I find that a bit confusing. Why not just edit the main templates with the additional information. Loving all the new templates though nice work Zippy :) --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:43, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Main Page

2023-01-07T09:26:51Z

Vallode:

{{Archive|
# [[Talk:Main Page/archive1|Archive 1]]
# [[Talk:Main Page/archive2|Archive 2]]
# [[Talk:Main Page/archive3|Archive 3]]
}}

== How to create a new language page? ==

I've just seen one dwarf requesting a Japanese page.

If possible, I'll gladly translate this wiki into Korean. Korea is relatively a small country so the language is not that widely used, but surely there are some players, I guess.

I don't know where to ask about this :9

== Free SSL Certificate ==

If the operators want to re-enable https, they can get a free (as in beer) certificate from https://letsencrypt.org/ . Instructions are on that site and it's very easy.
:HTTPS is enabled now as of the June 2019 upgrades. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:53, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

== Re: Discord ==

I notice there's a Discord on this page. But shouldn't it be the Kitfox Games Discord, since that's the only official Discord for Dwarf Fortress?

[[User:AlastríonaCatskill|AlastríonaCatskill]] ([[User talk:AlastríonaCatskill|talk]]) 13:43, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
;I wasn't aware of it. If that is the case, then it should probably be added to the page. [[User:OluapPlayer|OluapPlayer]] ([[User talk:OluapPlayer|talk]]) 16:03, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, the only reason there is one at all is because somebody added some random one. I changed it to the only DF discord I knew of at the time. The only way I've now been able to find it is to search for 'Kitfox Games discord'. It's not listed on the bay12 links page, a forum thread, the reddit, or the Steam pages. Anyway, I've DMed Victoria on the KitfoxGames discord to make sure they're OK with adding the invite to this page. [[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 20:08, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

...Sorry, is it too late for this? I mean, while we're still discussing this, it looks like [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Talk:Main_Page#B12G_Discord someone else got left behind as well]. Add, or not? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 22:21, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you were trying to link to. Do you mean this: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163555.0 Note that the thread was locked because of drama. There's a lot of red flags: the drama, despite using the name Bay12Games it never uses the word 'unofficial', the rules channel posts are from a deleted user, the announcements channel hasn't updated in well over a year, many channels haven't been active in months. I'm not so much saying no, but I am asking: should it be linked?

There's also this: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157332.0 But that invite is invalid. [[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 02:35, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Ah, it's a ''dead'' discord. I see now. There was just no response to the April '17 topic, I stumbled across it all and got curious. No, I don't think it should be linked. Thanks for the analysis, anyway! [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 11:44, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

== [[Multithreading]] ==

Would it be OK to create [[Multithreading]] page describing why (preferably with citations)
* even perfectly implemented boost would not be significant
* multithreading is not something that can be bolted on complex program
* DF is complicated case where taking advantage of multithreading is not obvious http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=34311.msg7833713#msg7833713
* DF is filled with many gamebreaking bugs unfixed for many years, multithreading bugs are unusually awful to fix
* author of DF has minimal experiences with multithreading
* writing multithreaded code is hard
* writing correct multithreaded code is awfully hard
* fixing bugs in a multithreaded code is nightmare

and multithreading is not going to happen, ever

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=34311.msg7833713#msg7833713
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=107833.0
https://bholley.net/blog/2015/must-be-this-tall-to-write-multi-threaded-code.html + “At Mozilla, there is a sign on the wall behind one of our engineer’s desks. The sign has a dark horizontal line, below which is the text, ‘You must be this tall to write multi-threaded code.’ The line is roughly nine feet off the ground. We created Rust to allow us to lower that sign.” http://www.oreilly.com/programming/free/files/why-rust.pdf

[[User:Mko|Mko]] ([[User talk:Mko|talk]]) 03:07, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
:I disagree with some of your talking points
:* In DF each AI actor makes its own decisions, the computations can be done in parallel for an ncores speedup
:* This parallelism should be built into the lowest design levels of the program, it can be done in a DF-like program
:* With training and experience a good developer can write and debug multithreaded code.
:I agree that multithreading is unlikely to be done in DF; It can not easily be bolted on and I rather see the developer spend time on game-play.
:Is it worth to create a wiki page for what is essentially a one line explanation?
:--[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] ([[User talk:MathFox|talk]]) 18:40, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
::We would essentially be writing a page about a thing that doesn't matter to Dwarf Fortress. I can't agree to the existence of a page that's basically "This subject doesn't exist in the context of the game but here's the reasons why it should or shouldn't". This is better reserved for forum discussion, not a wiki. [[User:OluapPlayer|OluapPlayer]] ([[User talk:OluapPlayer|talk]]) 12:54, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

== Re: Discord II ==

Good morning.

I was confiding with some friends, who had alerted me to the "Unofficial Bay 12 Discord" posted on this Wiki. Simply put, allegations of the use of ableist slurs were thrown, as well as screenshot evidence of using hard racist slurs against people of colour.

I feel that the Unofficial Discord should hereby be removed from the social media part of the website for the following reasons:
* No official connection to Bay 12 or the publishers [and, by extension, every non-Bay12 forum should be removed - especially dead ones]
* This unofficial Discord is actively opposed to the standpoints that Toady One and Threetoe have posted on the bay12games site over the recent days.
* This unofficial Discord uses slurs and other problematic language that actively harms the image of the Dwarf Fortress community
* This unofficial Discord will likely make it so that people steer away from the game.

I do not feel comfortable with the Wiki platforming a known racist Discord server, as that is de facto support of the messages of that server.
[[User:AlastríonaCatskill|AlastríonaCatskill]] ([[User talk:AlastríonaCatskill|talk]]) 12:02, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Update: Apparently, this same Discord has been banned from the r/dwarffortress subreddit for as long as one of the mods can remember, and the link to it was banned on the official Kitfox Discord as well. I can post the screenshots I have of actively problematic behaviour on this Discord but I will not do it unless necessary, as the contents are alarming like that which will not be named. [[User:AlastríonaCatskill|AlastríonaCatskill]] ([[User talk:AlastríonaCatskill|talk]]) 12:10, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

:I've removed the link. Safe to say, we don't need the wiki to be associated with this sort of people. [[User:OluapPlayer|OluapPlayer]] ([[User talk:OluapPlayer|talk]]) 21:58, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

::The "Unofficial Bay 12 Discord" was already not linked on the main page - the only place it was mentioned is this talk page. Are you talking about that one or the Unofficial Dwarf Fortress Discord that is linked on the main page? The latter does have it's #elfposting channel, but that channel is initially hidden, opt-in only, and clearly labelled as a lawless zone. For an analogy, there are many very awful subreddits, but we still link to reddit - (yeah that's a little different but not much). Otherwise the unofficial DF discord is well modded and such behavior is not allowed in other channels. So, are you certain which discord/channel the screenshots came from? [[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 22:29, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Since there's some confusion, AlastríonaCatskill, could you confirm and/or provide some evidence that following the link that was on the main page (removed in [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=253449&oldid=251109]) takes you to the discord that you were referring to? The only reference I can find to a discord removed from the /r/dwarffortress sidebar is for a different discord, not the one that was linked on the main page (although it's possible that just the invite link was different). I just want to make sure that we're removing the right one here. If you have anything that you don't want to share publicly, you can PM me on the forums (same username) or [[Special:EmailUser/Lethosor|email me]] through the wiki, which I think is working. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:45, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

:@Lethosor, I have emailed you the relevant images via the link you had created. The Discord that was on the main page and removed today is indeed what was being referred to, especially with the confirmation of the #elfposting channel being from said Discord. In my opinion, @Ziusudra, the inclusion of a problematic part of that community, even as opt-in, is unacceptable in my book for a community to be platformed on this Wiki. [[User:AlastríonaCatskill|AlastríonaCatskill]] ([[User talk:AlastríonaCatskill|talk]]) 03:26, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello, I am the owner of the Unofficial Dwarf Fortress discord. I just want to clear a few things up and open a channel of communication.
Several years ago, the original owner of the discord left, in no small part due to all the sexism and racism and such.
After a few days of an having an interim owner, it was given to another user, who onboarded several users as admins, including me.
The new owner tried a lot to curb terrible stuff on the server, however this often lead to drama.

The r/dwarffortress delisting happened after some of that drama spawned a new discord with a more "free speech" orientation,
things spilling over to the forums and other places. Some time after that, she left the server to me, due to the amount of
stress running that place caused her. When I took over I also tried to make it a better place, but with slower and subtler
methods that wouldn't spark drama. Completely disallowing some behaviour outside of #elfposting was part of that,
and later making that channel hidden by default was another. Now, the discord is much much better to be in
than it ever was before, though it still has major flaws. I don't like #elfposting at all myself, but I don't rule with an iron fist nor
do I know what much I can do without sparking massive drama again. Since April this year I have had some plans to make the discord
quite a bit better, however some of my mods have been against it in part due to feeling it would cause bigger problems
(though, as you probably know, some of them participate in #elfposting).
With recent events, both within and outside the DF community, we have decided to move ahead, every mod on board,
with some plans including phasing out the #elfposting channel in a way which will not create large issues for moderation.
It will be fully gone within one (1) week of now.

Also, I am a tad annoyed that you posted about this here but completely neglected contacting us. In the future, could you
please contact me or one of my mods when you have any concerns about the server? I really do care about these things and we need feedback.
—[[User:Lonjil|Lonjil]] ([[User talk:Lonjil|talk]]) 10:32, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

: Thank you for replying here Lonjil. Unfortunately, I cannot trust your take on this matter for several reasons.
: # One of the moderators has an anti-semitic stereotype profile picture
: # Even if the only place of no censorship is the elfposting channel, and even if it is opt-in, the complete chaos of racist slurs allowed there is completely unacceptable for minority players and an extremely toxic environment. There have been instances of straight hate speech on the channel / server as well, suggesting to kill people of colour and LGBTQIAA+ people.
: In short, the toxicity of your Discord's community makes it not just uncomfortable, but downright dangerous for minority people playing Dwarf Fortress. As Tarn and Zach have made liberal-to-leftist political views in the past, the chances of minorities to play the game is higher - and I wouldn't want to be a person of colour signing up for a shitposting channel to only be met with over 10,000 instances of the hard-n word being used. The Discord should remain off of the Wiki until things shape up and all instances of hate speech be purged from server history. Personally I would rather all non-official channels of communication be removed from the page, period, but that is a less pressing discussion than active hatred of minorities being platformed on the Wiki via your unofficial Discord. [[User:AlastríonaCatskill|AlastríonaCatskill]] ([[User talk:AlastríonaCatskill|talk]]) 12:30, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

:: Small edit / follow-up to my previous message. My friend tells me that elfposting is the most commonly used channel, which goes to show the level of hatred allowed into the community. It may be best to remove the channel in entirety, and make a new meme channel with no hate speech allowed. [[User:AlastríonaCatskill|AlastríonaCatskill]] ([[User talk:AlastríonaCatskill|talk]]) 12:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

::: The admin you are referring to is a jew, who lives in Israel. I prefer to not police people of other ethnicities when it comes to negative stereotypes and such of themselves, they know what they are comfortable with far better than I ever could.

::: Elfposting is not, by any reasonable measure, the most used channel. It has fewer users than any other channel. It has a fair number of messages, but only because there is no rule against spamming in there. So, nearly all of it is spam, which was the point of the channel to begin with.

::: "It may be best to remove the channel in entirety" this is exactly what is happening, as I already said. We're giving the channel regulars a few days to hear the news, but then the channel will be gone. We already have a more pleasant meme channel from an experiment we did in April, which we are bringing back. —[[User:Lonjil|Lonjil]] ([[User talk:Lonjil|talk]]) 13:57, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi all - thanks for keeping this discussion civil. I've been investigating the policies of other DF communities, and I've come to the conclusion that it would be best for the wiki to only link to the official DF Discord (Kitfox). I'll also make a pass through the other sites linked on the main page. I'm sorry to those of you working hard to maintain Discords and other unofficial communities out there - I know it's difficult, and I don't want to judge your communities without being a part of them. However, there will always be debates like these about whether a community deserves to be linked from a more "official" place, like the wiki, and no matter where we draw the line(s), people will be upset. The policy of only linking to the Kitfox Discord seems to have worked for other communities, which is why I'm applying it here. I would be happy to have a broader discussion at [[DF:Centralized Discussion]] if anyone wants to. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:48, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

== Put Chinese language wiki on other Languages ==
Found it on Internet([http://cdf.wikidot.com/start]) – [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:45.58.187.66|45.58.187.66]]

:I added a link to it. I'm not sure what the process is for adding interwiki link support (support for links to pages in the sidebar, like how [[DF2014:Cat]] links to http://dfwk.ru/Cat) but I can look into that too. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:40, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
::Hello! I'm the admin of [https://dfzh.huijiwiki.com/ Chinese Dwarf Fortress wiki], and I've previous put its link on the main page. We've now enabled interwiki link from our site to English site, and we wish to get one back from English site to CN site as well. Hope that is possible, and thanks so much! The URL for our site should be: <code>https://dfzh.huijiwiki.com/wiki/$1</code> [[User:Xjtu-blacksmith|xjtu-blacksmith 黑山雁]] ([[User talk:Xjtu-blacksmith|talk]]) 11:26, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

:::Added. Prefix is "zh", for example: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=266849&oldid=266730 —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:45, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

== Villains Wiki ==

To started putting some creatures on the Villains Wiki, because I want to spread the word of Dwarf Fortress around, and these creatures fit the theme of the wiki anyway. Here's an example page, and the template of all pages: 
[https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Goblins_(Dwarf_Fortress) Villains - Goblins] 
[https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Template:Dwarf_Fortress_Villains Villains - Template of DF Villains]

If anyone could add more info to those pages, or think more creatures should be on that wiki, please let me know. Or you could add it yourself. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 13:37, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

== Replace Chinese Wiki with the new one on Fandom ==

The previous Chinese wiki on wikidot seems to be inactive for a long time, with its main page refers to the download link of v0.44.10, and most pages are never updated even earlier than that version. Recently we are working on a new site on Fandom ([https://dwarf-fortress.fandom.com/zh]), trying to keep everything up to date. Wish to replace the links on dwarffortresswiki's main page and the sidebar link (inter-language link) with the one at Fandom, so that more people may get to the right place and join us. [[User:Xjtu-blacksmith|xjtu-blacksmith 黑山雁]] ([[User talk:Xjtu-blacksmith|talk]]) 04:16, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

:I've added the link of Fandom site onto the main page, without removing the previous one. [[User:Xjtu-blacksmith|xjtu-blacksmith 黑山雁]] ([[User talk:Xjtu-blacksmith|talk]]) 11:09, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
:We've migrated Chinese Wiki to huijiwiki.com, which is now shown on Main Page. [[User:Xjtu-blacksmith|xjtu-blacksmith 黑山雁]] ([[User talk:Xjtu-blacksmith|talk]]) 07:41, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

::Added. The "zh" prefix should work for links. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:43, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

== Kitfox Discord ==

<blockquote>
''2022-04-15 BlueManedHawk . . (8,594 bytes) (-135)‎ . . (The Kitfox Games discord server has an unethical code of law. I don't think the wiki should be supporting it.)''

''2022-04-15 Ziusudra . . (8,729 bytes) (+135)‎ . . (Undo revision 263652 by BlueManedHawk[:] please discuss changes such as this on the talk page first) (Tag: Undo)''
</blockquote>

Alright, I can do that.

The Kitfox Games discord server has a code of law that contains the following immoralities:

:- Is very vague and nebulous, allowing the moderators to exploit the vagueness to be able to do very different things in similar circumstances in alignment with their biases. (Not that they do that, but the fact that it's possible is concerning.) 
:- Contains a "These rules are subject to common sense." clause, essentially meaning that the moderators are able to do whatever they want and hide it behind the barrier of "common sense". This goes completely against the point of the concept of rules in the first place as a promise from those in power in regards to what they will and will not do. 
:- Allows for infinite punishment.

That last one could do with a bit of explaining. Let us begin with the premise that the punishment for a crime should be proportional to the severity of the crime. I think we can all agree on this. Therefore, an infinite punishment should only ever be given for an infinite crime. However, humans are not infallible. People make mistakes. And this means that if a court of law is able to administer an infinite punishment, they run the risk of accidentally giving somebody an infinite punishment that they do not deserve. This, I think we can all agree, is unnacceptable. Therefore, infinite punishment cannot every be administered ethically.

I hope that this explains why I want the link to the Kitfox games discord removed.

Regards,

—[[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 22:29, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
:* Their rules are not vague or nebulous, they even give examples of what the rules cover. Of all the discords I am on, their rules are some of the most detailed.
:* The "''depending on the action and our judgement''" is quite similar to the "''depending on how disruptive you were and your prior history''" found in the DF forum rules, and is pretty standard social media boilerplate and is itself common sense.
:* Their rules state "''Breaking these rules will result in a warning or ban''", which is not at all "''infinite punishment''", and is again quite similar to the "''If you violate the guidelines, you will be warned, muted for a period of days, or banned completely''" on the forums. It's not like they can keep anyone from playing the game or interacting with the other communities.
: Your referring to their rules as "code of law" is hyperbolic. Their rules are quite similar to the rules of the forum. So, I disagree and think the link should stay. [[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 23:13, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
::* The rules are pretty vague. Examples aren't enough. A strict, clear, unambiguous definition is necessary to prevent abuse.
::* While it is true that their clause is ''normal'', that doesn't mean it's ''right''.
::* The explanation of bans doesn't explain how long the bans will last. Since there's nothing explicitly stating that infinite punishment won't be given, and since "ban" by itself generally refers to a permanent ban, I think that it's allowing infinite punishment.
::* I'm not sure how the term "code of law" is hyperbolic. I use the term synonymously with "set of rules".
::* I can't seem to find a code of law for the forums. However, if what you said is true, then clearly we should also remove the link to the forums.
::
:: Regards,
::
:: —[[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 02:59, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
::: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=27009 It's linked in the header at the top of every forum page, though if the header is collapsed you won't see it.
::: Unambiguous rules are technically impossible since human behavior is limitless. That's why we hav judges for actual laws - even society's strictest laws need a human adjudicator. Then, even with "permanent bans", both Kitfox and Bay12 hav public email addresses and twitter accounts which can be used to petition to hav a ban removed.
::: Finally, suggesting the removal of the links to the official forums for the game this wiki is dedicated to is unreasonable, to the point of making me wonder if you're trolling. [[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 04:59, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

::::I agree with Ziusudra. More broadly, I think we should keep links to "official" DF channels, and Kitfox is a DF publisher. If a potential for "infinite punishment" warrants removing links to the offending site, then by your logic, we should remove all links to the wiki from the wiki because users here have been banned permanently. That has been done based on the best judgement of the people who volunteer their time to run the wiki and has been open to appeals, and I expect other channels are similar. I'm not interested in entertaining this argument here. If you have specific issues with a specific external site, I suggest that you get in touch with the moderators there instead. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:34, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

:::::Hello.

:::::As I mentioned below, the DFWiki is in a position of power, and by removing the link to them, we can potentially force their hand into making their code of law more moral. On the other hand, keeping the link there could potentially be seen as supporting their immoral behavior, tarnishing the reputation of the site. This is why I brought up my issues with an external site onto this one: because these issues also affect it.

:::::It is true that by my logic, the DFwiki is operating immorally. However, I would like to mention that ''you are in a position of power on the wiki'', Lethosor. I would think that you have the ability to change the Wiki's code of law to be more moral. You have the choice to make the wiki a better place, and I advise that you take it.

:::::Regards,

:::::—[[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 06:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

::::Hello.

::::* I don't know which header you're referring to—wherever it is, it seems to not be there for me. Regardless, I thank you for clarifying which guidelines you were referring to.
::::* Unambiguous rules are largely impossible because nobody has yet created an unambiguous language. However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't still seek to get as close to unambiguous as possible when constructing a code of law.
::::* Claiming that the bans are transient because it's possible to appeal them is optimistic, and while there is a place for optimism, this is not it. Any potential that a legal system has for corruption is one that we cannot assume will not be used, and often, corruption begets corruption, continuing the cycle until a revolution happens.
::::* Being a central repository of knowledge on DF, the DFwiki is in a position of power. If we do remove the link to the Kitfox discord under the condition that they make their code of law more moral, then we can theoretically force their hand, maybe. There is, of course, a risk to this, and this should be deliberated before a decision is made.
::::* I am not a troll. Why does everybody keep thinking that?

::::Regards,

::::—[[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 06:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

== Advertisements problem ==

One of the full-page advertisements(a pop-up that obscures the whole page) had what looked like a "close" button, but it just tried to redirect me to another page.
Full page advertisments aren't untoward but like, web elements that say 'close' are expected to do what they say, otherwise it's intercepting clicks. – [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Eerr|Eerr]]

:Do you have a screenshot of the offending ad, or can you take one if it happens again? My understanding is that that is something we (admins) don't have control over, but we can report misleading ads to Google. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:09, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

== Kitfox Discord (again) ==

Hi. I'm again requesting the removal of the link to the Kitfox discord server for only two reasons this time: the code of law gives infinite power to the moderators, and the criminal justice system uses punishment to deal with criminals. These are obviously both immoral, and until the server fixes these issues, the DF wiki ought to remove the link so as not to seem to be promoting them. [[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 21:45, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
:And again, I don't support removing the official publisher's discord just because you think that there is some thing wrong with their completely normal and reasonable moderation practices, none of which involves "infinite power", "punishment", "criminals", or other such hyperbole. Banning is not "punishment", it is protection of the community from those that act to harm it, nor is it "infinite power" since all it does is keep those rule breakers off one discord server and nothing else. All of which also happens on both the Bay12 Forums and this very wiki, both of which, by your logic, you should immediately stop using lest you appear to be promoting them. [[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 03:45, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
::Normalizing of horribly unethical practices is not okay. I do not think it is hyperbole to use the terms "infinite power, "punishment", and "criminals". The server is a jurisdiction like any other, and it should be held to the same standards of morality as any other—this includes not using punishment as a means to deal with those who break the law. It is completely possible to protect the community without using bans—bans simply get rid of problems instead of fixing them, and are ineffective against the diligent. Infinite power is not an okay thing to give to those who govern a jurisdiction—dictatorial power structures have been shown to fail many times over throughout history.
::
::If we simply must keep any official venues for DF on the main page, regardless of morality (this includes the forums, which i agree should also be removed), then the Wiki ought to put a disclaimer of some sort clarifying that they are being listed not in support of the governance policies of the communities, but simply because they are official.
::
::[[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 17:24, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
:::Good god, how many of these discussions are you gonna keep making? Is there anything that ''doesn't'' offend you? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 13:14, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
::::There's no need to be rude. But to answer your question, i'm going to have as many discussions as are necessary until a concensus is reached. [[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 21:43, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::You can't keep just keep making constant requests of "guys can we please remove that and that and that and this and this because of like business and anti-competitive stuff and yeah and like" but then turn around and go "why does everyone think I'm a troll?" Can you seriously not connect those two things together? I've been part of this community for a long time, and you are the one and only person who gets all offended by things that no one else would even care to think about. This wiki is not the place for that. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 10:48, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
::::::I really don't understand why people think that i'm a troll. If you or someone else were to explain it to me in a manner that's more polite than your previous messages have been, i'd be happy to listen. [[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 20:18, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::::Hmmmmmmm, no. I'm gonna skip the "polite" thing and just speak the truth. No regrets. The fact that you can't see why people think you're a troll makes the situation even worse. You're someone who got all bent out of shape over a Minecraft diamond reference, something that no one else would ever care about. You keep saying you don't see how people think you're a troll when it was explained to you many times. All this goofy legal stuff you keep bringing up is best left elsewhere. Not here. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 13:59, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

== Wiki logo ==

The new wiki logo requires getting used to. Personally, I wouldn't mind something simpler like [[:File:Dfhack-logo.png|DFhacks]] with a more fancy version going to the mainpage. Maybe someone from the community can come up with something, here is what [https://ibb.co/26J569S my meager skill] able to come up with --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 13:20, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
:I just noticed it and I have to agree. It's like being hit in the face with a brick. It references DF relatively deep lore ([[obsidian]] and [[semi-molten rock]]) and it feels way too harsh compared to the relatively relatable and much more early-game relevant icon of a dwarf mining. --[[User:Lurker|Lurker]] ([[User talk:Lurker|talk]]) 13:01, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
:: For reference here is the [[:File:DFDefault.png|digger]] from the classic intro and bellow rendering of what steam version uses in its loading phase, as well as [https://ibb.co/mtzdLm3 this simple variant]
<diagram>
¦¦¦¦¦¦
¦ ¦
¦ ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦
▒ ▒
▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒
▒▒ ¦¦ ▒▒
▒▒▒▒▒▒
▒▒▒
▒▒
</diagram> --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 15:39, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

== steam release ==

: "''We are working on a migration that will be complete in the next few days''"
Any estimate on how long that is going to take? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 08:53, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
: Additionally, who is working on this wiki migration, and why is it a closed process? I feel like the migration could have been largely completed by now if everyone was able to help, but that sentiment may just be coming from my ignorance. [[User:Trainzack|Trainzack]] ([[User talk:Trainzack|talk]]) 00:40, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
::See thread at [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Versions#v50_organization]]. Emi and I are planning to use a MediaWiki bot for this. My current ETA is 2 days from now. I've asked for help in a few places to write such a bot and have had no responses. My concern with a manual migration (e.g. if we have people copy over just some pages manually) is that it would likely result in a state that is much more complicated to finish. I'm sorry it hasn't gotten done yet. Open to help with automating this. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:39, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
:::Ah, that page completely eluded me! Thanks for pointing in that direction. I would be totally willing to help write a bot, just let me know what I can do. [[User:Trainzack|Trainzack]] ([[User talk:Trainzack|talk]]) 14:37, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
::::Thanks for offering. I actually ended up with some time today to work on the migration script. It's almost done, just need to run some final checks before setting it loose. Hopefully tomorrow. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 07:15, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

== wiki tasks ==

Dwarf old head but new account. I'm trying to do a little grunt work for migrating raws and stuff every time I browse the wiki but adding raws is gated behind the adding a page permission. Is there a honey-do list for stuff that needs editing in order to get some contributions under my belt? ☺ --[[User:Hotty gremlin|Hotty gremlin]] ([[User talk:Hotty gremlin|talk]]) 01:47, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
:This lists every page that still has the migration template on it: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Migrated_article [[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 02:26, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

== New main page gallery images ==

Should we start some sort of initiative, maybe over discord as well, for people to provide a few new images from the premium version to use on the main page? --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 15:47, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
:What's stopping us from just extracting the sprites? [[User:BlueManedHawk|BlueManedHawk]] ([[User talk:BlueManedHawk|talk]]) 23:05, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::Nothing, but I'm talking about screenshots from in-game similar to the ones in [[Main_Page/gallery]]. :) --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 09:26, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Saltwater

2023-01-06T19:29:46Z

Vallode: Create saltwater redirect page

#REDIRECT [[Water#Salt_water]]

Heavy aquifer

2023-01-06T19:03:38Z

Vallode: Create heavy aquifer redirect page

#REDIRECT [[Aquifer]]

Light aquifer

2023-01-06T19:03:19Z

Vallode: Create light aquifer redirect page

#REDIRECT [[Aquifer]]

Rehab

2023-01-06T18:32:44Z

Vallode: Fix unnecessary double redirect

#redirect [[Dungeon (zone)]]

Talk:Jail

2023-01-06T18:30:57Z

Vallode: Fix unnecessary double redirect

#REDIRECT [[Talk:Dungeon (zone)]]

Work order

2023-01-06T18:29:16Z

Vallode: Fix unnecessary double redirect

#REDIRECT [[Work orders]]

Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions

2023-01-06T18:23:46Z

Vallode:

{{archive|
# [[DF Talk:Versions/Archive 1|Page 1]]}}

== Version 0.31.19 starts a new DF generation? ==

My reading of Toady's comments on the release of 0.31.19 is that it came out basically because he felt it would take too long to get DF all the way to 0.32. With the ore changes, the sitefinder changes, the addition of grazing and several different industries, there's a lot of changes between 31.18 and 31.19. So I'm thinking it might be a good idea to call it the first release of DF2011 - and what we refer to as "DF2010" would then become 0.31.18.

Thoughts? --[[User:DeMatt|DeMatt]] 07:06, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

==Revisiting Redirects==
I wasn't around when the redirect policy was created, and I'm having trouble understanding the rationale. The example claims that linking [[Main:Cheese]] to [[cv:Cheese maker]] is problematic...but mainspace only ever redirects to the current version. If the best target in the current version is cheese maker, why not link to it directly? (It's not, at least for Cheese, since [[DF2012:Cheese]] exists now.) The explanation seems to be claiming that 40d articles that link to Cheese will follow the Mainspace link--but that hasn't been the case for a long while now. Articles in 40d automatically link against other articles in 40d, so that version remains internally consistent no matter where mainspace links to in the current version. For a current example, what do we gain by linking [[Main:Mead]] to [[cv:Mead]] and linking [[DF2012:Mead]] to [[DF2012:Alcohol]]?

If this really is just an outdated procedure, I recommend we drop the mummery and allow mainspace to link to cv:(best target). Double redirects ''may'' work (sometimes, but [[Main:Mead]] demonstrates a common problem where automatic redirection fails), but if they are unnecessary I think they should be avoided, partly because of problems like [[Main:Mead]] and partly because of the effort required to protect double redirects from users who believe they are problematic.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:16, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

:I was just thinking that. I'm currently attempting to write a basic extension to eliminate the need for mainspace redirects entirely, although Mediawiki's class structure may make this more difficult than I had hoped (the only method I've found for resolving redirects takes the ''article text'' instead of a title, e.g. "#REDIRECT ..."). I do agree that the current situation with redirects isn't ideal, so I'm hoping this will work better (once I get it to work). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:42, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Okay, that wasn't quite as clear as I meant it to be. In general, I think this is a tricky situation. Mediawiki wasn't designed to have five content namespaces, and certainly not chains of redirects between them. The problem that was pointed out in the [[DF:REDIR|policy]] is the fact that with:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
pages in the cv: namespace can't use [[<nowiki/>foo]], since the namespace links modification causes it to be treated as [[<nowiki/>cv:foo]] instead, which doesn't exist. The current suggested solution is this:
Main:Foo -> cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
This fixes the problem of [[<nowiki/>foo]] not working on cv pages, but creates issues with double redirects not always working. Another solution, which is more intuitive to new editors, is:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
Both require creating two redirects. The first method has the advantage of ''ensuring'' that the cv redirect exists (otherwise, main:foo would be a redlink), while the second has the advantage of working more reliably in a couple cases.

What I'm trying to do is make main:Foo "jump" to cv:Foo when cv:foo exists, ''even if main:foo doesn't exist'' (basically it would treat all mainspace pages as redirects to cv pages, but only if the cv page exists and not the mainspace page). I had main:Bar jumping to cv:Bar fine, but if cv:Foo redirected to cv:Bar, accessing main:Foo would mysteriously stop at cv:Foo even if I increased the redirect limit. What I'm trying to do now is follow the redirects internally, without relying on Mediawiki to do it automatically - unfortunately, that has proved to be harder than I had hoped (and I sent my web server into an infinite loop while trying). I will try to work on this some more when I get a chance, although I'm not sure when that'll be yet :(. For now, feel free to fix broken double mainspace redirects as necessary, as long as redirects in the DF2012 namespace stay pointing to the right page (and new mainspace redirects get added in the DF2012 namespace too). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

:You're treating cv like a namespace--it's not. It is simply shorthand for "fill in the current version here". [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Briess&diff=182404&oldid=181281 As I discovered a long time ago on a server not far away], linking from Main:Foo to cv:Foo tends to break redirection chains. If, instead of linking to cv:Foo, you link to DF2012:Foo, it might just work. It would, of course, be better if your patch could evaluate cv itself, but even if you have to hardcode the current version it's a single point of maintenance that requires update very infrequently. (For that matter, we could probably dispense with the cv hack entirely and just have a bot update mainspace links from DF2012 to DF201X when we switch to a new version.)--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:05, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
::I know cv isn't a namespace - I was just trying to avoid future confusion when the DF2012 namespace changes. It's interesting that changing "cv" to "DF2012" fixes some broken redirects, although I've found that simply making an edit to a broken redirect can usually fix it as well. I've actually had the most problems with double redirects when the second one (in the DF2012 namespace) doesn't use the DF2012 prefix (e.g. main:Foo containing <nowiki>[[cv:Foo]] and DF2012:Foo containing [[Bar]]</nowiki>). I'd rather keep the cv alias even if it isn't necessary for mainspace redirects when I get the patch to work, since it makes it easier to refer to the current version of the page (for example, several MDF articles contain links to a vanilla page for things that don't change in the mod).
::Also, using aliases like "cv" is supported by Mediawiki; in fact, several WMF wikis use them (for example, "[[wikipedia:WP:Redirects|WP:Redirects]]" on Wikipedia). It's quite likely that Mediawiki isn't processing double redirects using aliases correctly, though, since that's uncommon on most wikis. --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:35, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

In light of the lack of support for the current redirect policy, I propose we replace the current redirect section with:

:Mainspace article pages should use the cv: alias when redirecting to a versioned page, which will automatically update the link when a new version is released. For example, page "Main:Foo" should redirect to page "cv:Bar" (where "Bar" is the page that best describes the topic Foo in the current version).

:Pages in mainspace should only redirect to an older versioned page if that content no longer exists in the current version of the game (e.g. [[Cave river]], [[Chunk]]). In these cases the cv: alias cannot be used.

:Pages inside a versioned namespace should not use the cv: alias. Instead, they should redirect to the best page within that versioned namespace (e.g. [[DF2012:Dodging]], [[v0.31:Drink]]).

:Due to limitations of the wiki software, double redirects should be avoided if possible. When fixing double redirects in mainspace, please make sure to use the cv: alias as appropriate.

If no one objects, I will make this change in a few days.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:21, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

:Okay with me. It may be worth mentioning that double redirects only really need to be changed when they don't work (since changing a lot of redirects that work isn't necessary), but I think it's clearer and more relevant than the current policy. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Done.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:55, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I was finally able to get my extension to work after being motivated by one too many malfunctioning redirects. It now causes nonexistent pages in the main namespace to behave exactly like redirects to their DF2012 counterparts (when linked to, accessed directly, and transcluded). Double redirects also work (up to 100, in fact, although that was a temporary safety measure that I'll probably change). This means we'll be able to safely get rid of all mainspace redirects (redirects that redirect to something other than "cv" will still function if not deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:20, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
:What about articles which don't exist in the current version but do exist in older versions? Will those still need mainspace redirects, or will your extension be able to automatically redirect them to v0.31/40d/23a? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] ([[User talk:Quietust|talk]]) 01:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
::It ignores all mainspace pages that actually have content, including redirects, so pages like [[masons guild]] won't be affected (unless deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:47, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Done and deployed. [[Cat]] is still treated as a redirect, even though I just deleted it (try clicking on the "redirected from" link). Pages that exist are ignored, so [[Masons guild]] and [[History of Dwarf Fortress]] still function normally (as a redirect to a 23a page and a non-redirect, respectively). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm sending around a bot right now to delete all redirects of the format "foo -> cv:foo" (a surprising number don't fit this format, so I'm leaving them alone for now). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:43, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

:I'm confused. Do we use double redirects or not? Is there a single place we define our linking policy (including redirects), and is it updated?
:I had trouble linking to [[Consolidated_development]] in [[v0.34:Dragon]]. It kept pointing to v0.34:Consolidated_development, which does not exist. I ended up linking to Main:Consolidated_development to make it work. --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] ([[User talk:Nahno|talk]]) 10:18, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

::That's a separate problem altogether - links in the versioned namespaces (v0.34, v0.31, 40d, 23a) automatically link to pages within their namespace. I may be able to set up a fallback to mainspace once I'm able to deploy again, but for now the "main:" alias is the intended solution. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 11:36, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

== Google often directs people to the 0.31 page ==

I've noticed a couple of times that finding a wiki page from an external search will often drop me onto a page from an older version. Is it possible to mitigate this somehow for new players? I could imagine something like redirecting old:Bar -> cv:Bar unless the user has come from old:Foo; no idea if that would actually work though. [[User:PeridexisErrant|PeridexisErrant]] ([[User talk:PeridexisErrant|talk]]) 11:48, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

:As a temporary solution, I could write a script that displays a banner of some kind if the user came from an external site. I'll ask Briess if he can do anything on the server level to increase the weighting of the current version's pages. (Obviously there are situations where people are looking for old pages, like [[23a:dungeon master]], so we don't want to disable indexing entirely on old pages.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:03, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

== DF2014? ==

As Toady [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ draws closer to a new release], it might be worthwhile to discuss the addition of a new version to the wiki. The upcoming release covers two years of changes and introduces a number of new plants, foods, drinks, multi-tile trees, climbing, jumping, etc., so it is likely to have significant changes from the current DF2012. To avoid having people start new pages (and lose all the effort spent refining the prior version's page), I think it would be best to have a bot automatically copy over the DF2012 pages as a starting point for DF2014. I would suggest that these copied pages include a noticebox template mentioning that the content may be outdated, so that we can easily track which pages have been reviewed. I think either the {{tl|version check}} or {{tl|old}} template would work. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:43, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

:This is what [[User:QuietBot]] did after the 0.34 release, so it's certainly possible to use the same script to migrate to DF2014. I would like a way of tagging migrated pages, since inaccuracies in some pages went unnoticed for months after they were migrated. Since {{tl|old}} is already in use, {{tl|version check}} may be a better solution (it can be reworded slightly, or we can make a separate template for DF2014 migration). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:23, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
:Made [[Template:DF2014 migrated]] as an example. Any thoughts? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:32, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

== Redirects inconsistency ==

Following a redirect is supposed to be exactly the same as going straight to the page it redirects to, but this actually isn't the case:
* Go to [[Seeds]] and you get [[v0.34:Seed]] (outdated)
* Go to http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Seeds&redirect=no and click on the link and you get to [[DF2014:Seed]] (current)
So if you search for "seed", the top result is the DF2014 version. But search for "seeds" and you get the redirect, which sends you to the outdated page instead. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

While I'm talking about redirects, it seems redirects to sections don't work: see [[DF2014:How do I manage my seeds and crops]]. I know MediaWiki is capable of this trick because Wikipedia does it. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:32, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

:I have absolutely no idea why [[seeds]] redirects to a v0.34 page - it could be a Mediawiki bug. The section links issue is due to a known issue in the redirect extension we use, which has yet to be fixed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:01, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
:It looks like deleting both [[Seeds]] and [[DF2014:Seeds]] fixed things (by allowing AutoRedirect to handle the redirects instead). Feel free to tag any others with {{tl|bad redirect}}. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::It gets stranger. [[Vial]] redirects explicitly to [[cv:Flask]] which displays (when you look at it with &redirect=no) as [[DF2014:Flask]], but still goes to the v0.34 version. It seems redirects interpret the cv: pseudo-namespace (or whatever it's called) in an outdated way. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 18:08, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::I've added a note to this page about this issue. If it gets resolved, the note should be removed. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 21:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

==Reorganizing versions==

The internet deals with moved content... poorly. Google is still linking to v0.34 pages more than a year after the switch to "DF2014", and even the wiki software still has cached links pointing to the old version pages.

I propose reorganizing versions on the wiki to avoid moving content whenever possible. Instead of having a temporary "current version" namespace that changes occasionally, all the current information gets promoted to the Main namespace. When the next version split occurs, the Main articles as of a certain revision number can be copied to the newly-created permanent "old version" namespace, while all the current information remains in Main. This not only fixes the link rot issue, but it has a few other benefits as well: fewer administrative tasks, no lockdown (a historical version of the Main pages can be copied at any point, even if the Main articles are already modified for the new version), almost all the article history is maintained in the Main article (instead of being spread unevenly across multiple versions), no "temporary" namespaces are needed, fewer problematic long redirect chains, and hopefully less user confusion (since Main gets priority in search results, etc.).

As an example, today we would not have a DF2014 namespace (which is good because "temporary" namespaces historically disappear anyway). If you ran a search for [[seed]] you'd end up at Main:seed, which would have all the current information on seeds. The version box at the top of the page would still link to the older versions of the seed article. When a new version is released, an admin would choose a revision number and copy the Main:seed article as it exists at that revision number to v0.40:seed. That's it. One historical copy that needs little to no new editing, and zero redirections/moves.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:02, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

:Makes sense to me. It would involve a lot of work, though (e.g. fixing templates and categories to account for the current version being in mainspace), although that should be doable thanks to {{tl|category}}, {{tl|version switch}}, etc.. A bot could be set up to copy revisions from before a release date as well, which would be more difficult (and maybe slower) than a direct copy, but not severely. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:24, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

:Actually, there are a few issues with that, namely that there wouldn't be an easy way to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned mainspace pages. There are ways to resolve Google search priority (we can exclude pages from older versions from search engine results if there are newer versions of those pages available, for example). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:47, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::There aren't very many non-versioned mainspace pages, and determining if a page is versioned is as simple as looking for the version template and/or categories added by the version template (e.g. copy [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Category:Current this category] instead of Main:*). The problem with "suggesting" newer pages to Google is that they obviously aren't crawling our wiki regularly (if they were, the fact that the mainspace redirects point to new pages would automatically be picked up). Even if your Google hints worked they wouldn't do anything for all the other broken links out on the 'net.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:35, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: Google actually crawls the wiki constantly - we probably get crawl hits from google for a continuous block of 2-3 hours per day, each and every day. Why they are slow to update is beyond me though. I can't remember why we didn't do this initially, but there was a technical limitation involved if I remember correctly. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] ([[User talk:Briess|talk]]) 22:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: There are <meta> tags that can be used to hide pages from search results (for search engines that recognize them, that is). Searching for {{tl|av}} or [[:Category:Current]] might work, although we'd have to make sure all of the DF2014 pages include that (some pages don't, particularly some disambiguation pages, although all of them should). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:53, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

:Is there a particular reason main and current are separate to begin with?—[[User:CLA|CLA]] ([[User talk:CLA|talk]]) 00:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

::It's mostly intended to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned pages and make version-related templates simpler to work with, since every versioned page has a namespace. I wasn't active here in 2010 when this system was created, so Briess and Emi would know more.
::Another issue I just thought of with Loci's suggestion is categories - currently, categories like [[:Category:Animals]] are used to organize the versioned sub-categories. Sure, we can change {{tl|Category}} to categorize mainspace pages in [[:Category:v0.40:Animals]] or [[:Category:DF2014:Animals]], but that would be less straightforward because there wouldn't be a namespace with that name (until pages are migrated when a newer major version is released). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

:Moving current pages to the main namespace sounds like a great idea. -[[User:Jecowa|Jecowa]] ([[User talk:Jecowa|talk]]) 20:47, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Another thought: dealing with migrating redirects could be difficult with this proposal - specifically, determining which redirects should be migrated to a versioned namespace. Redirects can't contain {{tl|av}}, at least not before ``#REDIRECT``. I ''think'' it would be possible to copy pages in two stages, though - all non-redirects first, then all redirects whose targets were also copied. Thoughts? Anything I'm missing? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:41, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Some subpages (particularly /raw and /Edit notice) also deliberately lack {{tl|av}}, although those shouldn't be too hard to handle. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

:Redirect pages (and all other edge cases I've looked at) can be included in categories (like [[:Category:Current]]) to determine whether or not they should be copied into an archival version. But if the redirects are "properly qualified" then they can all be copied over blindly. Mainspace redirects pointing to versioned information should use a blank namespace (which will be automatically constrained to the archival namespace); mainspace redirects pointing to unversioned information should use an explicit "Main" (which will automatically link back to the unversioned page). Then, when [[[[Toady]]]] gets copied to [[[[v0.4x:Toady]]]] it will point back to [[[[Main:Toady One]]]]. Meanwhile, [[[[Beer]]]], copied to [[[[v0.4x:Beer]]]], will properly point to [[[[v0.4x:Alcohol]]]].--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:00, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

::I think qualifying redirects is the best solution here - categorizing redirects manually is another possible source of errors, since categories (or a lack thereof) would only be visible on the redirect page itself, and [[:Category:Current]] is a hidden category. Copying over mainspace redirects into versioned namespaces would also resolve some issues that have come up due to those not reliably existing currently. I should be able to set up a bot script to add "main:" to current mainspace redirects (and it shouldn't break anything, since those redirects go to other mainspace pages anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:57, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

(Note: I wrote all of this without noticing the previous discussion above.) I was wondering, when the wiki creates a new namespace for a major release again, if it is possible to ''not'' create a namespace for the next current version (e.g. "DF202x") and instead have the mainspace articles (which are currently redirects) become the new cv and move the content there. Therefore, [[cv:Cat]] would just be "[[Cat]]" (or [[Main:Cat]]).

Certain namespace-related templates like [[Template:Ns/0]] would need to be changed, though nothing significant as far as I know. For most cases, any "DF2014" would be replaced with "Main" or even blank. There's also multiple extensions handling the current namespace system and they may need to be modified too, though I'm not sure if or how much. I'm guessing based on the discussions above that it will change stuff up.

My reason is the current namespace is increasingly becoming more anachronistic. "DF2014" could be misinterpreted as "this page is about the 2014 version of the game" or "this page was last updated in 2014", which I've seen a few people in forums mention. Granted that [[Template:Av]] is on the top of very article, I still think the namespace is inconsistent with the recentness of the article. But how is this related to what I'm asking for? Let's say we continue the current system: if we happen to do a new namespace change this year and create DF2020, the next major release (after graphics/UI) will be mythgen, which is estimated to take several years to develop (the Big Wait), and so the anachronism will start over again. The proposed way will prevent this from occurring for the next major release and every release thereafter.

I think the confusion with having a namespace that becomes old-fashioned overtime supersedes the confusion with not marking current versioned articles with a namespace. Most users just search "Cat" on the search bar and naturally expect to get information about the latest release of DF. So if users go a page that's just titled "Cat", they won't expect outdated info about cats from a previous release. That's how the current system works anyways. We'll be skipping the two-step process that we have now. It'll make several wiki tasks much simpler as well. Editors can create new articles for current versions without remembering to add a namespace. It'll fix any existing issues with (double) redirects; instead of [[Main:Kitten]] redirecting to [[cv:Kitten]], which goes to [[DF2014:Kitten]], which then redirects to [[DF2014:Cat]], [[Main:Kitten]] would just redirect to [[Main:Cat]]. And the cv: alias will no longer be necessary since "cv:" = "Main:" and will be forever.

There's no need to differentiate the current version and previous versions with a namespace for the current version is what I'm saying. Articles of previous versions will retain their respective namespaces. Users will still type "40d:Cat" to go to the 40d version of the article, but if they want the current version, they'll just type "Cat" (like now). The mainspace containing the "live" version of an article is natural and would create no uncertainty when browsing the wiki. And it would simplify the wiki somewhat and future-proof this anachronism problem. As a bonus, this change will also prevent web search engines from showing previous version pages when typing "DF cat" or something. (This isn't happening right now as DF2014 has been the current namespace for ~6 years, but it'll happen again when everything moves to a new namespace.)

This is the gist of it, and I may have ignored most of the problems with this proposal. I have personally wished for the whole version namespacing be made less complicated and have been seeking for a solution, and I feel like this is the best way to go about in the future. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:27, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:<s>Whoops, looks like Loci already proposed this exact thing long ago. I definitely missed that discussion and should have checked first. My apologies. I'll move my text to that section and remove this one. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:36, 14 August 2020 (UTC)</s> Done. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:40, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:The main issue I have with that is that putting pages about the current version in a namespace also differentiates between those pages and pages not about ''any'' version (for example, [[Toady One]] does not need a 40d or v0.34 page). Yes, we can use {{tl|av}} to mark versioned pages, but people often forget to add that to new pages. The current system also allows determining whether a page is versioned or not from its title, which makes migrations a lot faster. Relying on {{tl|av}} would require either reading the content of every page (which would slow scripts down significantly) or cross-checking with the list of all pages including the template (feasible, but a bit more complicated, and still susceptible to missing templates). I suppose that manually fixing and migrating pages missing {{tl|av}} later wouldn't be too much work, though.
:I am definitely in favor of changing "DF2014" (or a new namespace) to "Current", though. I was in favor of "DF2014" in 2014, but I don't think it makes sense anymore, and "Current" seemed to be a popular alternative in both the DF2012 and DF2014 discussions on the matter. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

== Weird redirect behaviour ==

[[Pump stack]] redirects to [[cv:Screw pump#Pump stack]]. If you look at the redirect itself it says it redirects to DF2014 namespace, which is correct. But if you actually follow the redirect, it goes to v0.34 namespace. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 16:10, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
:Yeah, that's part of the issue described in the above section (the wiki caching part, not on Google's end.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:00, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

== v50 organization ==

Some wiki admins have had a talk on Discord and decided that the most sustainable path forward is to put content for all future versions of DF in the main namespace. We will be working on a bot to do this in the next few days. Feel free to chime in with suggestions here. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

:Is it maybe possible to do backwards-namespacing? Like we have a "Main" namespace, which people are free to update, and whenever there's a new version of DF the "Main" namespace is copied into a namespace for the then old version, much like how you'd branch a stable branch from a development branch when working with a git-project? [[User:Therahedwig|Therahedwig]] ([[User talk:Therahedwig|talk]]) 23:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

::Yeah, we could do that if we decide to. We were talking about doing that for v50, actually, and might still do something similar to preserve edit history if it doesn't end up being too hard to automate. Our hope is that we will not introduce new namespaces for v50 -> v5x, unless there is a serious breaking change (and hopefully there isn't one). But if we change our mind, one advantage of the type of migration you mentioned is that it can be done retroactively - we can copy historical revisions that were current at the time of the release, and would only lose some typo fixes made after the release that apply to earlier versions as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:11, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

ETA is < 24 hours. Doing some final checks on a migration script. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 07:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

: We should really have a task list as there are many things that change and need updating. Including but not limited to:
:* Most templates that used the previous namespace convention broke, including nav templates.
:* Many game files changed locations and their pages need to be updated.
:* Raws need to be updated.
:* Various features added, changed, removed.
:* UI has been changed -- though I am more inclined to wait for classic release to avoid extra work --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

"''Raws need to be updated.''" Including applying text wraparound where necessary, I suppose - more than a few of them have proven to be that special kind of...''difficult'' to navigate otherwise, shall we say? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 12:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:There is already a task list in the [[#v50 migration|section below]] that includes templates and raws, with an explanation. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

== v50 migration ==

The initial migration script is done. New content is in the '''main''' namespace, e.g. [[Cat]]. Old content is still at [[DF2014:Cat]]. History was migrated to the ''new'' (main namespace) articles.

I know several things are broken still. Please reply if you find any others:
<div style="border-left: 2px solid red">
* <s>Versioned templates haven't been migrated yet (e.g. {{tl|vermin}} on [[Ant]])</s>
** Fixed. Most were migrated by a bot.
* <s>Raws are missing on all pages that use them.</s>
** This also affects sidebars, such as on [[Cat]] and [[Microcline]].
** Update: The DFRawFunctions extension has been upgraded to include v50 raws, using the "v50:" prefix for filenames instead of "DF2014:". <s>I haven't finished a migration script to create the /raw pages themselves, but they can typically be created manually by copying the DF2014 /raw pages and changing "DF2014" to "v50" everywhere.</s> —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
** Update 2: Raws have been added for all pages! They were copied from the "DF2014" pages and had "DF2014" replaced with "v50", which appears to have worked from a spot-check, but let me know if you find any problems. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
* Some pages where the DF2014 page was a redirect to a main namespace page that contained content were migrated incorrectly.
** In this case, the main namespace page is usually a redirect to itself. This can be fixed by undoing LethosorBot's edit to the main namespace page, then copying the content to the DF2014 page.
** Update: most seem to have been fixed manually - thanks! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* <s>Some main-namespace talk pages redirect to DF2014 talk pages. Some of these redirects work, and some (usually older ones) do not.</s>
** Fixed with a bot. Some redirects from talk pages to other deleted talk pages are now broken, e.g. [[Talk:Above_ground]] (exists) -> [[Talk:Tile attributes]] (redlink). I am leaving them like that because they redirect to where the talk page should be created, but I'm also fine with people deleting them if they really want to. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* {{tl|quality}} for new articles is disabled (see below)
* Some links from DF2014 to Main weren't working: e.g. the version selector [[DF2014:Mason's workshop]] was linking to [[DF2014:Main:Mason's workshop]] instead of [[Main:Mason's workshop]]. I'm not sure exactly why, but I fixed it with a change to the NamespaceLinks extension. Let me know if you spot similar broken links. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:19, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
</div>

—[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:54, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:The quality levels of the 50.03 pages seem to be missing. I'm not sure if that's covered under that first point. [[User:Trainzack|Trainzack]] ([[User talk:Trainzack|talk]]) 06:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::If the the [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Quality]] feature can be made to work with namespace scheme change, I suggest to automatically assign the lowest quality rating to all pages, alternately add the {{tl|old}} to all pages. Otherwise there will be a lot of pages that will fall through the cracks. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::I disabled {{tl|quality}} in the main namespace because it would require some rework to make the rating script and the template work properly there. Feel free to take a stab at the template. I will see what can be done on the extension side. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::What needs to be done on the template side? I'm not sure I see too big of an issue leaving pages as "unknown-quality" for now (or just change the default to tattered) until we get the rating script working. Is that script up anywhere, anything that could be helped with? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:10, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::They're already marked as unknown. Really the only issue I know of with the template is that it doesn't show up with some of the newer skins we added, and that can be fixed by getting rid of the absolute positioning. As for the script, it can be found at https://github.com/DF-Wiki/QualityRatings, and the issue is really only with the configuration system not recognizing the main namespace as valid. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:29, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::Great, I started having a crack at fixing the template with different themes. Is the preference to get some CSS going and then include it in the global stylesheet (i.e different styles per theme) or to try and get a "one size fits all" fix? —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 08:14, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I would rather avoid custom site-wide CSS if we can. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I appreciate that, I think it's the simplest solution to add a few lines to common.css though. Unless there is a way to attach CSS specifically to a template, I saw a few extensions that allowed that but I'm not sure if any are present in the wiki at the moment. Regardless there already exists a class `div.topicon` that is specifically for the quality ratings, is there an issue with expanding this class to accommodate the themes? The list of themes where the quality rating display is broken/invisible: Citizen, MinervaNeue, MonoBook. —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 21:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::What do you think of moving the template out of the topicon entirely and just placing it in a div? It would take up a (hopefully) small amount of vertical space in the article. [[User:Lethosor/Sandbox/Quality_test]] is an example. Unfortunately it isn't possible to prevent other templates from displaying above the quality this way ([https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User:Lethosor/Sandbox/Quality_test&oldid=283883]). So maybe we do need some custom CSS after all if we want that. I'm open to trying out whatever you propose. I'm a bit worried about future-proofing against skins we add later (particularly a mobile skin) but at least MediaWiki supports skin-specific global CSS as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:33, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::I would rather we avoid taking any more vertical space in the article. The growing block pyramid at the top, starting with version template, is annoying. If you end up placing it inside the article space please use a slim box 100% wide that would include both.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 01:19, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::Agreed with you Jan, however I see that as two different tasks (ArticleVersion template changes, getting quality back on pages). I made a test adjustment to the quality and it takes up a negligable amount of extra space. See [[User:Vallode/sandbox#Page_quality]] for the example, we'd be able to completely remove "topicon" (unless it is used somewhere else?) and then potentially move on to making the ArticleVersion template into a slim version on the left-hand-side instead of a large box? Let me know what you think. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:35, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

It appears some pages are redirecting recursively and never resolving correctly, like the [[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Character_table&redirect=no|character table]] and [[tileset repository]] 07:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
: Indeed, these can be caught here: [[Special:DoubleRedirects]] --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

It might be useful to change the notice title to "release information '''for editors'''" --[[Special:Contributions/142.59.195.176|142.59.195.176]] 10:26, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Can do. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::New here, hello. Should we set a date where we remove/only show the banner for logged in users. There are (some) pages that have 4 different notices about the upgrade. [[Engraving]] is one such page, the top banner states "information for editors", we then have the "this page was migrated" banner, a version selection which warns the article might be inaccurate, and a smaller banner saying the page might need to be updated. Quite a lot of screen space, I think we can start to slowly reduce the amount of warnings this coming month? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 10:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Unfortunately, only showing info to logged-in users is difficult with how MediaWiki caching works. In terms of reducing warnings, there is a discussion [[Template_talk:ArticleVersion#.22Note_that_some_content_may_still_need_to_be_updated..22|here]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:43, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::As for [[Engraving]] specifically, the {{tl|old}} banner was actually present on [[DF2014:Engraving]] as well and got carried over with the migration. I removed it, and agree that it was redundant. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:46, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Main talkpages seem to redirect to DF2014 talk. Not sure if it is intentional but I like it, though we should pay attention when creating new discussion relating to v50 ending up there.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 14:18, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:That's unintentional. I specifically wrote the migration script to not move talk pages, but that has the side-effect of leaving any previously-created "Talk -> DF2014 talk" redirects intact. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Yo Lethosor, are we adding graphic sprites for the pages in some way? Or are we waiting for you to add some sort of new template or something? I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that the current templates don't allow that. Not sure if I'm allowed to change/create any templates either, as I don't want to break things for hundreds of pages. Edit: And IF the icons are allowed, should they be left alone, or 2×-3× sized like how the Minecraft wiki does it? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 14:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Depends on which templates you mean. There are copyright concerns with uploading a premium sprite sheet, for instance. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm not talking about uploading an entire sprite sheet. I'm just talking about individual icons for each respective page. One image for cows, one for horses, one for werebeasts, etc. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 16:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::If we do that for every creature in the sprite sheet, that's not much different (in terms of copyright) from uploading the entire sprite sheet. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:09, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::Is there someone we can talk to about that? We finally get this new game with graphics, and then we can't use the very graphics of the game? No matter what the rules are, I'd say that would be the stupidest thing ever. I know I'm infamous here when it comes to copyright and images and stuff, but about 80% of game wikis out there are completely unofficial, and use game file images like no one's business. I can't imagine anyone's door being knocked on if we used the game's sprites, but I won't add any here until we have a go-ahead. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 17:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::...I've made noise in Mayday's direction on this matter, at least (prob an incorrect maneuver, ''but'').[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 17:55, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: I hope some sort of arrangement can be made so we can use the new sprites with permission/limits, just as we are using the raw files. Otherwise we are all (devs and editors alike) shooting ourselves in the foot here.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::I just thought of something. We're supposedly not allowed to upload entire sprite sheets, right? What if - for the time being - we just use a few of them for the purpose of testing out new infoboxes? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 21:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::I don't know. If someone could ask Kitfox and post the response here, that would be great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::::I've reached out to Alexandra, but she hasn't answered yet. Until then I found these old approvals from the previous community manager, Feeona: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8243633#msg8243633 link1], [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=176640.msg8243642#msg8243642 link2]). Waiting for a newer response until we begin mass uploads is probably the politer option, but like Zippy said, it is also standard for wikis to use game sprites with less approval. I second their idea of trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. On the extreme off-chance (and I do think it is) Kitfox protests we can always remove these few. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:19, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::And here is a third, more official statement: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8249718#msg8249718 link3]). Perhaps that address of info@kitfoxgames.com is the better channel to ask for a confirmation, rather than Discord DMs, but I will be going to bed, so it is best if someone else does that. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::Thanks for tracking this down! Ok, sprites should be fine, but let's avoid uploading the entire premium tileset as a single image, for instance (as the forum thread says, "use common sense"). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::: Looks good, permission is always preferable over fairuse, I think it is a win win for all involved. I agree that we shouldn't upload entire sprite sheets (e.g. there is no reason to upload the windmill from every direction or whole construction phase for workshops) and that there are a lot of details that needs to be ironed out through testing. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 05:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::We have a green light on uploading all and any sprites. Their response to me can be seen [https://i.imgur.com/BhmHjzC.png here]. I'm sure someone else confirmed it before me. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:00, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Shifting temporarily to a new issue, is the documentation of [[Template:ArticleVersion]] outdated? It would seem so to me, since the current version no longer has its own namespace, with the templates needing updating being different ones. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 18:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:I think it is still accurate enough. We left open the possibility of making another namespace in the future, albeit with a different migration strategy - see [[#v50 organization|above]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Some Changes to infoboxes might be needed. Too bad [[User:Doorkeeper]] isn't around. He did a great work with navbox project--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:52, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

I just realized that raw files aren't stored as regular wiki pages but loaded via the DFRawFunctions extension (hence the need to update). Good news it's going to be handled in bulk, consistently and relatively easy to updated. Even better it's Lethosor problem ;) Also I just realized that all the "raw files" (txt files in the new vanilla folder) are released into the public domain. Both are probably not news to the vets but I'll leave it here for those who less up to date like myself. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:35, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: I noticed that some templates aren't working properly in the new namespace, e.g. [[Basalt]] entry had its raw updated manually but the infobox fail to show any details. Cursory look suggest {{t|layerlookup/0}} need a minor tweak. This should do the work
:: Replace: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
:: With___: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{</nowiki>:<nowiki>{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
: Not sure what the plan and ETA with raws update so I didn't touch this high usage template for now. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 08:11, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

::Please do feel free to make this update. I am still working on a script to create the <code>/raw</code> pages themselves. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be an idea to add to the Sitenotice to remove the {{tl|migrated article}} tag when an article has been fully updated? I see many articles that seem to be updated still have the tag. And/or advise to make use of the {{tl|verify}} for sections still in need of checking? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 10:12, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:Probably a good shout. The "see this page" link does include the detail on removing but we should more explicitly encourage removing the banner once a page has at least been looked over. [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:01, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

== v50 specific issues ==
=== Graphics===
Follow up on the use of game sprites and the need to trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. First sprite [[:File:Beds v50.png]] was uploaded and used on [[Bed]] entry. Any thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Seems like it should be rearranged to be horizontal. Also, has there been a serious discussion about copyright? Full screenshots are 100% fine, but you start going into a grey area when you upload pieces of a spritesheet. I'm of the opinion that it's all fine as long as it's inconvenient to reconstruct the full sheet from the individual images. Maybe a further restriction could be you shouldn't upload any of the art unless it's used in an infobox (maybe an exception for pieces of the UI). And one more restriction could be you shouldn't show everything, like in your bed example, maybe just the wooden bed is good enough, leave out the stone and metal, especially since those can only be made from strange moods. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:43, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::Actually, your bed image is kinda bad for showing off what a bed looks like because it doesn't show the pillow/blankets. That might point to cropped screenshots being the best path, although less convenient for the uploader, as you don't get details left out. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:46, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::I created a new license template [[Template:Copyright game]], based it on the way the RimWorld wiki does things. Call it a prototype, but it's probably how your bed image should be labelled. Indeed, I added it to it already. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]])

::: I agree that the horizontal arrangement would suit better here and that we should strive to represent how things look in-game. Otherwise, I am not too concerned about people being able to reconstruct anything (lets just say that ''anyone'' interested in that can get the real thing from the game files), also it seem we have permission to use the sprits on top of fairuse. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 19:55, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

::: Modifying the existing template to allow the inclusion of the new sprites is easy (Something like [https://ibb.co/zFXCrjd this]?) The big question is the matter of consistency is there any exceptions that will break the format (size wise with variant bloat for example), the sprite naming format, etc --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:44, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::: If we are going to show a variant for each material type, then maybe these should be added as separate images so we can add a tooltip for each image. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:49, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

:I've got another prototype going here and here: [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]] and [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox]]. (You'll need to add the css stuff to your own /vector.css). Basically it's a way to recolor images using css classes. No idea if there's a better way. Also, the real implementation would require a change to [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Should mention, there ''is'' a different way, just upload each image 16 times, one for each coloring. But maybe that's not very elegant. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:45, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

: It should be noted that soon the classic edition will be released, hence one should plan to have both the Premium and classic alongside in that little space --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:14, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm looking into a tab extension to potentially support this in infoboxes. Perhaps [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Tabs Extension:Tabs]? I tried [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TabberNeue Extension:TabberNeue], but it displays a placeholder if JavaScript is disabled, which isn't great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: The Neue Tabber seem to works pretty much like the old one (which fandom [https://coding-help.fandom.com/wiki/Tabber#Adding_images_into_tabbers still use]) defaulting to showing the first tab only. Quick look suggest that neue work the same, plus the notice that 'Tabber requires Javascript to function' warning? if so, and if it is a bother, then you should be able to edit out the tabberneue-noscript string in code. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:29, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: I much prefer your tabber solution, but if that fails we can also use the gallery slideshow mode. If so, beware it has no way to control image size so the images have to be maliciously uploaded using the exact same size. example:
<gallery mode="slideshow">
File:SteelSample.png
File:TinSample.png
File:ZincSample.png
File:GoldSample.png
</gallery> --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

==== adding premium set to Infobox ====
I am unclear where are we going with this? 
1) Will (A) tabs be implemented, (B) we be using mediawiki toggle [[Template_talk:V50_workshop|example]] for premium and classic/blocked, (c) put images side by side, or (d) something else? 
2) Also [[silver]] and [[Pig iron]] use very different image style for example. 
3) Anything else you want ? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

: Personally, I would love tabs to be implemented, but I think that side by side might be best for most. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
: Here is rough layout we can use. It should fit most buildings given the default sprite size. There is also a different floor plan for both (inspired by reddit)

{|
|- valign=top
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 5×5
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>
|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|colspan=2|<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">
[[File:Siege workshop.png|center|160px]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab"">
{|
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%; font-size: 125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Siege workshop}}</center>
|style="line-height: 1em; font-size: 125%;"|
{| style="border-spacing:4px;"
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 3×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|colspan=2 style="text-align: right;"|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="float:left; border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%;"|
<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">[[File:Carpenter's workshop.png]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab""><center>
{| style="font-size: 175%; border-spacing: 0; background-color: black; border: 2px solid black"
|- 
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|"|7:0:0}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|{{=}}|6:0:0}}
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|]|0:0:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
|}</center></div>
|
{| style="border-spacing:5px;"
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×1
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:Screw_press.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Screw press}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Screw press}}</center>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:water_wheel.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Water wheel}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;line-height:normal;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Water wheel}}</center>
|}
|}
:Any thoughts on the direction and or any and all of its elements? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:16, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

::I kind of like side-by-side, if it fits. If anyone wants to implement a toggle button or tabs, I would ask that that be implemented in a template for now, so that e.g. we could change a toggle button to tabs in a single place if we decide to install an extension to support that. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

::: I noticed a comment saying that [[impassable tile]] are no longer used in v50, is that true for all constructions? If so, floor plans are no longer needed, making things much easier as we can fit everything in except the 5v5 constructions like trade depot (and even these can be placed one above the other if so desired). If not, any thought on the alternative floor plan design? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

:::: None of the constructions have blocking tiles any more from my experience playing. I haven't tested siege weaponry with that stuff, but none of the workshops have it, nor does any furniture. (walls and fortifications will of course obstruct movement [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 18:47, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
::::: Ok, I have removed them from v50. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I have added a basic side by side variant to [[Template:V50 workshop]] and [[Template:Building]] for testing, let us know if there any issues. Few notes:
* The default image naming scheme of <code>workshop-name.png</code> will likely conflict with existing images here or on commons, maybe another naming scheme should be used like <code>v50 workshop-name.png</code> as it is with ascii pictures.
* There is inconsistency in image size. If you want to use large zoomed images then toggle is best, otherwise they need to be all in native size (96px for 3x3).
* In the current version the code roughly centers the images and if there is a big image like with [[Siege workshop]] it drops to a new line --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

How about combining shortcut keys and the new menu icons:
<div style="color:white; font-size: large; text-shadow: -1px -1px 0 #000, 1px -1px 0 #000, -1px 1px 0 #000, 1px 1px 0 #000;">[[File:Ui b.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">b</div>[[File:Ui bo.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">o</div>[[File:Ui bol.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div>[[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div></div>
--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 02:24, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

:I worry that this is difficult to read (I read it as "boil" at first). I would rather use something like {{tl|k}} with a known background. What about something like this? [[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:0px;">{{k|l}}</div> or, alternatively, using flexbox without any overlap: [[File:Ui boll.png]]{{k|l}} —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:37, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Same, but that is the best I came up with. We can use the key or maybe someone can help improve the design. Also 'l' is hard to read even with {{t|key}}.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:05, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: I added a {{t|Menu icon}} to start things so others can have a go with it. Also any thoughts on the icon naming convention (their shortcut sequence), is there easier/better way? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:36, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::[[User:BarelyCreative]] updated the template: {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y}}. I think it looks good, thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::I like that, yeah. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::There were some places where it didn't make sense so display every icon all the time (like step-by-step guides), so I changed it slightly to allow display of fewer icons using "num" and counting from the end: <nowiki>{{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-;|num=2}}</nowiki> {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-|num=2}} [[User:BarelyCreative|BarelyCreative]] ([[User talk:BarelyCreative|talk]]) 09:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

==== Bizarre palette-swapping idea/prototype ====
No idea if this is a good idea, since it takes a bit of time to set up, and there might be some performance issues... and maybe display issues?

But take a look at this:
{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=amber}}

It's way to swap palettes on an image, although the image itself is a table, with each cell representing a pixel. The template itself looks like this:
<code><nowiki>{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=saffron}}</nowiki></code>
Input the pattern and desired palette name.

I've got a larger showcase here: [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase]]. Only did a rock pattern so far, but all palettes are implemented.
The major use for this would be on each stone, metal, wood, etc. type's page. The palette could be read directly from the raws. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 03:22, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

:From a technical perspective, my primary concern is indeed performance. Both on the server side and client side, a large number of tables that large (in terms of markup and cell count, that is) tend to be resource-intensive to generate and render. I saw your image-filtering experiments on [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]], and while that strikes me as a newer and less-backwards-compatible approach, it would probably be more resource-friendly.
:Is this color adjustment something the game is doing natively? i.e. does this accurately match what the game displays? I bet we could slap together an image-filtering extension (or find an existing one?) that can do this if needed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::Yeah that's what I suspected. The images the template creates are spot on, checked it against a screenshot I took of some mica rocks in-game. The css stuff is unfortunately totally incorrect, was cool to learn about it though, so not a complete waste of my time :p. The premium, in-game graphics are true sprites, basically patterns of indexed colors. Each of the in-game colors (which are significantly expanded over the 16 ascii colors, there's 116/117) there is a palette defined in "\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_descriptors_graphics\graphics\images\palettes.png". Each indexed color of the sprite is swapped for the corresponding color in the palette. Because of that, the css stuff doesn't work since it's doing the hue/saturation/brightness changes to the entire sprite.
::I've looked into an existing mediawiki extension, couldn't find anything. One thing I did't really look at is some type of lua script/module that would basically emulate what the game is doing. So some function that takes in the base image as well as the desired palette, and based on that finds and replaces each color. No idea what mediawiki's capabilities are on that front. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 05:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
:::We do have Scribunto installed now, so it's totally possible to do something in Lua too - forgot about that. I can add you to the group that grants access to edit the Module namespace if you want to give that a shot. If we use an extension, we'd probably need a custom one, similar to DFDiagram (or perhaps DFDiagram could be extended - it's in dire need of a rewrite anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:43, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::::I asked around on the mediawiki irc, I think scribunto/lua is a deadend, at least for taking an uploaded image and doing stuff to it with a lua script. However I did come up with this even more bizarre solution, using block elements. [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase2]], maybe less resource intensive? Definitely displays a lot worse though, probably unusable.
::::{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock2|palette-name=saffron}}
::::I dunno, maybe none of this is worth it and we should just write some external program to put all the images together offline, and then just mass upload. It wouldn't be ''that'' many... [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 06:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

====Is there an easy way to just paste images from the clipboard?====

I use KDE spectacle to take screenshots straight to the clipboard (after cropping) -- is there an easy way to just paste (and auto-upload) an image into an article? It would make it a lot easier to contribute images. [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:35, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Unfortunately there is not. I would be open to a MediaWiki extension to support this if someone finds one. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Looks like this could do it, but I haven't used it before: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SimpleBatchUpload [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 19:41, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

====Standards for adding graphical version screenshots and images====

Hello, new user looking into adding imagery from the new version. Is there a standard for quality of new screenshots or images? I noticed that at a certain zoom level (2 zooms in from the furthest zoomed-out view), the graphics appear crisp and 1:1 pixel scaled, and I would propose that all images be taken at this scale whenever possible. If they need to be displayed larger, they should be nearest neighbor scaled in a photo editing program at 100% increments (Microsoft Paint will do this if you first select the image rather than directly scaling the whole canvas). I would also propose that images should be cropped to conform to the 32x32 pixel grid when possible, though this could be problematic with so many new graphical elements exceeding the bounds of their tiles. I would say the best practice for capturing artwork for items, furniture etc. ought to be done in a 3x3 open area to avoid shadows from nearby walls, or else extracted from the raw files (if this doesn't run afoul of being able to re-create the graphical version using those assets).

I know that perfect is the enemy of good, and any documentation is better than none, but just thought I'd ask about this, and see if/where something like this ought to be posted. [[User:Unclesporky|Unclesporky]] ([[User talk:Unclesporky|talk]]) 13:58, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:It has been stated in [[Template:V50 workshop]] that <q>screenshots should be at the "native" resolution</q> but someone could edit the [[Screenshot]] page for best practice for the steam version. Or post some examples in [[Talk:Screenshot]] to find out what is best? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:21, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

====How would I/should I go about putting creature sprites on their pages?====

Howdy. New player and wiki user here. I wanted to try and help update the wiki to the Steam release of DF, so I figured I'd chip in by putting each creature's sprites on their respective page, since I'll often look up a creature I have yet to see in game only to be met by a blue J, or whatever. I found all of the game's creature sprites in C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_creatures_graphics\graphics\images, so I figured I could just chop those up in Photoshop and stick them on here no problem, but the programming syntax/whatever it is on this site is incredibly confusing, I don't know how I'd actually go about doing it. I figured I'd just find the spot on the page where the little letter is and replace that with the image code, but it seems the pages are built using heavily nested templates that I can't even begin to understand. Any help?--[[User:Treese|Treese]] ([[User talk:Treese|talk]]) 03:07, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:Based on [[User:Zippy|Zippy]]'s work at {{tl|Creaturelookup_b}}, I added an "image" parameter to {{tl|creaturelookup/0}}, which is what creature pages should all be using. See [[Dwarf]] and [[Cow]] for examples. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:37, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Hotkeys/Menu navigation ===
Most key bindings and menus have changed. Should the article reflect a) only the old version, b) only the GUI version or c) both? For example, [[Bridge|bridges]] used to be built via {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}, but now it's in Place strucutures {{k|b}} -> Constructions {{k|n}} -> Bridge {{k|b}}. What should be written in the article? Currently, it's {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}. I ''think'' it should be only b), but I am not sure if there will be differences regarding hotkeys or menus between the premium version and the free version and then, c) would be the most appropriate option. --[[User:Prometherus|Prometherus]] ([[User talk:Prometherus|talk]]) 10:16, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: Not sure. I wish the classic release soon --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 16:45, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: Are you Toady's herald? Looks like it was just released! [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:18, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: And our questions are answered, the old hotkeys seem to have been thrown out. Part of me is disappointed (useless muscle memory) but also relieved (unified UI for both versions is good in general and for the wiki). [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:25, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: According to info, in a sort of 'demo version' at that. I'll wait a little while longer, for myself.[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::::It's unlikely that keybindings in it will change significantly. My vote is that we should include information for both premium and classic, everywhere. Hopefully the keybindings are not different between versions. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:26, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::Shouldn't it be based on the 50 or what verion the article is written for? [[User:Dominick|Dominick]] [[User_talk:dominick|(TALK)]] 18:42, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::: The keybindings seem to be consistent between versions, (haven't checked exhausitvely, but since the menu layout is the same I think it is a good assumption). Should also keep in mind/consider that not all actions have keybindings. An option would be write 'Click on the <Example Text> icon or press {{k|E}}' [[User:Koos|Koos]] ([[User talk:Koos|talk]]) 23:14, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

=== Removed features & concepts ===

Since they're removed concepts, I've set [[Room]] to be a redirect for [[DF2014:Room]] and created [[Template:Activity zones]] for the nav bar bedrooms, etc, and made the necessary changes to [[Bedroom]] for it. Is this the correct approach, before I go on much further? (also a note, if it is, then [[Template:v50_rooms]] probably needs to be deleted) I also imagine that considering the number of changes in the interface, that things like [[Adventure mode]] and related pages might best be truncated to "not in 50.03" and when it does make it across, being more deliberately brought over in pieces? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 06:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:Usually it is marked with [[Template:Removed_feature]]. For example: [[Dipscript]] or [[Party]]. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:45, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:: Ah, that's fair. Should that be mentioned in [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Versions#Redirects]]? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 10:03, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::I think the redirect policy mostly had in mind things that were removed a ''long'' time ago, like [[Tax collector]] and [[Economy]] (and the latter actually has a stub page as well). I guess we could clarify. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:34, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: The "current" redirects also cause the version box to incorrectly show that the current version has a page - e.g. [[23a:Cave_river]] shows a v50.04 version, but it's just a redirect back to that version. Similarly, what should happen to redirects like [[Clothes maker]], where a concept has evolved? It currently goes to [[23a:Clothes maker]] - that's correct if the user is trying to look up a very old concept, but if a new user is looking for "how to make clothes", they should be directed to [[Clothier]]. --[[User:Danny252|Danny252]] ([[User talk:Danny252|talk]]) 12:16, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: One should be careful with cv redirects. Most that were recently adjusted were unused plural forms (that should probably be deleted) but few like [[Crown]] needed that for backward compatibility. Removing the [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&type=revision&diff=279966&oldid=219482 cv part] means the the link on [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is now broken. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 22:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::If [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is about v0.31, it should not be using "main:" in its links - ''all'' of those links are going to pages about v50, not v0.31, regardless of whether the target is a redirect or not. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:37, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: You right, I removed it. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 17:55, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Crown cv redir issue is now fixed, I believe. As goes with such cases where one can simply revert the troublesome edit, unless I've mistepped, myself? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 23:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:Both [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=280026] and [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=279966] should not have had any effect, because "cv" is an alias to the main namespace now, just like "main". Proof: [[Crown]], [[cv:Crown]], [[main:Crown]]. It's possible caching is coming into play here, although I purged the redirect cache after making that alias change earlier this month... —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:02, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

I think there have been some changes not captured, but as a newb, I'm afraid to edit the page(s). A good example is Strawberry. I'm playing the Steam version right now and Strawberry plants are "not relevant to brewing" in Labor > kitchen > veg / fruit / leaves. Unless I'm mistaken and need to process them? Another example is the trade caravan = it seems the 3 square pathing no longer happens; it's just yak(s). 12:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC) 12:29, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
:Strawberries should be brewable according to the Raws.
:Trade wagons has been modified in v50. The first wagons will arrive at the same time your fort is becoming a barony. Until then, it's only pack animals and stairs are indeed fine. The [[Trading]] page needs a huge rework anyway... I'll try to do that next week. --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

<s>As far as I can tell, none of the workshop buildings in v50 have blocking tiles any more. There's a comment to the like in data/vanilla/vanilla_buildings/objects/building_custom.txt that says this "[BLOCK:1:0:0:0] workbenches no longer block". Hesitant to update that template as I'm not sure if it's referenced for all of the old versions too. </s> [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 05:54, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
: A new template has been created: {{tl|V50 workshop}} --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::Thanks! In general, I would like to delegate the switching responsibility to the template (like how {{tl|creaturelookup/0}} works), but in cases where the parameters diverge significantly like with workshops, it could make sense to make an entirely new template. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

=== creature infobox prototype (moved) ===

Check it out, I made a temporary template and added it to the [[cow]]s page. Now it shows the sprites (but not the zombified versions yet). I wanted to show everyone a prototype of what v50 creature infoboxes should look like. Or at least something similar to it. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:11, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
:Hi, I'm new to editing wikis but I have done a bit of work with sprite sheets and I've been going through the DF data files to find the different graphics hoping to help with the animal pages. I've thrown together a template with grass and a few nature sprites (plants, a tree, and a rock) for size reference but I'm unsure how large the 'display' tiles in the middle of the template should be to suit all animals. I can see in the sprite sheets that some land animals have an adult and child sprite, so two tiles. Others have a male, female, and child, but after seeing you include the zombie cows I'm unsure if I should make it twice the size to add them too. Alternatively, I could grab some tiles from the haunted biomes for the zombie animals and make a separate template for a side-by-side comparison. Either way, let me know if this helps. I'd like to help with other graphics too as we add the premium tilesets but the animals seemed the easiest to tackle with me being new to wiki editing. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::@Zippy, I am a bit perplexed about the purple cows. Why do we need a zombified version of creatures on every page?
::@UristTheSeventh, we can use all the help. Maybe post an example, so that we can have something to compare and contrast.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::@Jan Here are the examples:
:::[[File:Creature template.png]] [[File:Armadillo.png]] [[File:Seagull.png]]
:::It'll need to be wider or arranged differently for different creatures with more that two sprites or for multi-tile creatures. I can also do an aquatic and air themed template for swimming and flying creatures. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::::Looks nice, like the metal template. There are several people working on updating the graphics you should talk more among yourselves. Best I can offer is that I width wise I am hoping to go up to 200px for infoboxes.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 01:13, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:::: We don't exactly ''need'' a zombie sprite on each page. I added it because it was... there. I was also hoping to get some opinions on it anyway since that infobox is a visual prototype, and not a final choice. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:28, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

===Furniture Infobox===
{{Quality|Unrated}}
{{v50_furniture|name=Bed
|graphic=[[File:bed_sprite_prototype.png]]
|tile=Θ|col=6:0:0
|wood=y
|rooms=
* [[Bedroom]]
* [[Barracks]]
* [[Dormitory]]
|value=10}}
I made a v50 furniture template prototype. I tested this on Firefox, Chrome and Microsoft Edge/Internet Explorer and it looks fine on all of them. I hope this is good enough to be the official thing, unless I'm missing something. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:28, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
{{clear}}

=== When do we remove the migration note on specific pages? ===

At what point can we remove the "this page was auto migrated from v47" warning? There are a bunch of small pages that are more or less accurate, if I've reviewed them, can I go ahead and remove the warning? [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Yes, feel free to remove it if you think all content is accurate. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Any info on fixing "creature description not found?" ===

I see this issue on most creature pages, it seems to be due to a lookup that's not currently functioning? Cows interestingly doesn't have this issue but I couldn't figure out how to recreate whatever fix it's editor did. --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 00:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:That is the missing raws issue described above. Cow was fixed by the addition of [[cow/raw]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:28, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::Ah makes sense, not fully used to the language of wikis yet so I read over it while looking. To put this bit of questioning to rest for any future readers, is it correct that it's fine to update any raws manually, though it will be done automatically at some point? --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 07:48, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Yes. I'm circling back to work on a script right now, so not much point in doing it if you're reading this. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::This should be fixed now. If you continue to see pages with problems, you can try [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Purge purging the cache]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:59, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Adventurer Mode related sections ===

The topic has already been discussed [[#Removed features & concepts|above]], but I don't see a clear line on what to do with article sections that mention Adventurer Mode. Like for example in [[Butcher#Adventurer_mode|Butcher]].

'''a) Truncate''' or '''b) leave in place with a mention''' that the mode is not yet present IG but will be added in a future update?

Personally I think option b) is better, because I think it's silly to undo some work just to reintroduce it a few weeks later, with the necessary corrections. Even if a copy/paste of a previous version takes ~15 seconds, considering the number of articles that need to be corrected, it would be a bit of a waste of time.--[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

== Toggleable image ==

Any objections/comments to using this template for now for toggling between classic and premium images? I'd probably rename it to "Template:Premium-classic thumb image". I'm sure someone can come up with a better UI eventually, but should be easy to migrate at that point. I also think we should use the same customtoggle class for this and for the infobox. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 23:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png
}}

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png|
caption=My caption|
width=100px
}}

:This looks nice to me! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

: Good initiative. From the top of my head:
:* I suggest using a shorthand, no one wants to type 'Premium-classic thumb image'.
:* If we end up using toggle for infoboxes (not sure where we headed there), then I agree definitely same custom toggle class should be used for all, thus allowing to switch premium-classic view on the whole page at a click.
:* The button part on a separate row isn't pretty, creating a lot of dead space that can be used by the text. Are we set on the label 'toggle ascii'? Classic isn't Ascii per se, maybe we can use a 'toggle' with a tooltip {{tooltip|for example|does bla bla bla}}, or maybe we can get rid of the text and have a smaller icon button ([[User:Jan/sandbox#Metal_example|two examples]]).
: I hope that helps. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

:: I added [[Template:Dual image]] with some of your suggestions. Agree that it's not super pretty, feel free to try something different.

::* I put the toggle in the caption mostly because I gave up on trying to make a more sophisticated replacement for the default thumb image behavior, I'm sure someone with better wiki-fu could put together something more intelligent.
::* I cut the text down to just "Toggle"; I think the best solution would be a small graphic showing the old and new dwarf icons with arrows between them. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 19:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

{{Dual image|
premium=File:DFwiki5by53by3farm.png|
classic=File:Quickstart_layout_3.png|
width=100px|
caption=A 5x5 room with a 3x3 farm plot
}}
::: I updated the layout, now it should look just like a regular image thumb. I didn't had time to test it, if it doesn't work for you or you don't like it just revert the last change. cheers. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::::I don't know which part of this talk page to put this, but I added the ability to add icons to the v50 workshops template. Leaving the icon part blank will not break the template in any way. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 09:47, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
{{clear}}
==Creature List Now Supports Graphics!==
I wasn't easy, but I made new templates so the [[Creature]]s page now supports both graphics sprites ''and'' ASCII tiles. Allow me to show you:

{{v50_creaturecurrent_table_head}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:dwarf_sprite.png]]|name=[[Dwarf]]|symbol=☺|color=3:0:0|playable=Fort, Adv|hostile=No|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Mountain halls]], [[Fortress|dwarf fortress]]es, [[hillock]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:elf_sprite.png]]|name=[[Elf]]|symbol=e|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Forest retreat]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:human_sprite.png]]|name=[[Human]]|symbol=U|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=70,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Town]]s and cities|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:goblin_sprite.png]]|name=[[Goblin]]|symbol=g|color=7:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Dark fortress]]es and [[dark pit]]s|note=Snatchers2}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:kobold_sprite.png]]|name=[[Kobold]]|symbol=k|color=6:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=20,000|value=Not tameable|biome=Caves|note=Skulking race}}
|}

Oh wait, there's a bonus. You can also modify the background color of the box the sprites go in. I added that to make possibly-hard-to-see-otherwise sprites more easy to see - depending on the colors it has. Allow me to demonstrate.

{{v50_creaturecurrent_table_head}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:dwarf_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#829ccc|name=[[Dwarf]]|symbol=☺|color=3:0:0|playable=Fort, Adv|hostile=No|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Mountain halls]], [[Fortress|dwarf fortress]]es, [[hillock]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:elf_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#c7dfc0|name=[[Elf]]|symbol=e|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Forest retreat]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:human_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#c7dfc0|name=[[Human]]|symbol=U|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=70,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Town]]s and cities|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:goblin_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#dfc0c0|name=[[Goblin]]|symbol=g|color=7:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Dark fortress]]es and [[dark pit]]s|note=Snatchers2}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:kobold_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#dfc0c0|name=[[Kobold]]|symbol=k|color=6:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=20,000|value=Not tameable|biome=Caves|note=Skulking race}}
|}

To change the background color, add <code><nowiki>|bgcolor=COLOR</nowiki></code> segment after the <code><nowiki>|graphic</nowiki></code> part. You can use color names or HTML hex color codes. I added this to the v50 creatures page, but at this time, I only added the first five creatures I just displayed. It's gonna take a while to find ALL of those creature sprites. I hope a lot of people help out on that one. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 05:29, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

:Thanks, looks nice! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:44, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:Nice stuff, took the quick liberty to change the padding-left -> text-align to make all the sprites center aligned relative to each other :) Sweet work --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:41, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Good work indeed. One minor issue, is that all the sprites have different sizes, which sometimes create slight variation in table row height. Consider using capping the image size vertically for example <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px]]</nowiki></code>--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:15, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Also often in such tables people want to click on the image to go for the specific entry, and often will try to click on the very first thing they see in line the thumb image, but currently that will take them to the file page. Consider adding link parameter for example: <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=dwarf]]</nowiki></code> [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=dwarf]] or no link at all <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=]]</nowiki></code> [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=]] --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:24, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
::: I mean... Yeah, I could do that. I think that lessens the quality of the sprite a bit because it makes edges blurry, but either way is fine. I could have sworn I added a link for all those images the first time. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:23, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::::Since we are adding pixel art sprites to the website it might be convincing to add a global class like .sprite or .pixel-image that uses the CSS attribute `image-rendering: pixelated;` in order to prevent blurryness when scaling the image up/down. Just a thought --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 09:40, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::Are we able to attach classes directly to images? If so, we can probably attach inline styles directly as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:52, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::Looks like (without an extension) MediaWiki only supports classes on images: [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|class=pixelated]] and not styles: [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|style="image-rendering: pixelated;"]] it just treats it as alt text it looks like? Wrapping it in a div works and demonstrates the difference: <div style="image-rendering: pixelated;display:inline;">[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|64px]]</div> [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|64px|inline]]. Speaking from experience, however, image-rendering needs a browser specific prefix in certain browsers (safari, for example) in order to work properly. I'm not entirely sure what the best "MediaWiki" practice is for adding something like this but I would assume it's a simple class in common.css for now. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:17, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Ah, yeah, you are correct, I should have checked https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Images. I'd be fine adding a class like that to common.css. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:27, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Great, in that case if no one is opposed we can add `.game-sprite` or something like that? See below for the CSS, the order of the attributes is relevant. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 18:23, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
<pre>/* Used for pixel-art images from the game so they can be resized and maintain crisp pixel edges. */
.game-sprite {
image-rendering: -webkit-optimize-contrast;
image-rendering: crisp-edges;
image-rendering: pixelated;
}</pre>

Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions

2023-01-06T17:17:36Z

Vallode:

{{archive|
# [[DF Talk:Versions/Archive 1|Page 1]]}}

== Version 0.31.19 starts a new DF generation? ==

My reading of Toady's comments on the release of 0.31.19 is that it came out basically because he felt it would take too long to get DF all the way to 0.32. With the ore changes, the sitefinder changes, the addition of grazing and several different industries, there's a lot of changes between 31.18 and 31.19. So I'm thinking it might be a good idea to call it the first release of DF2011 - and what we refer to as "DF2010" would then become 0.31.18.

Thoughts? --[[User:DeMatt|DeMatt]] 07:06, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

==Revisiting Redirects==
I wasn't around when the redirect policy was created, and I'm having trouble understanding the rationale. The example claims that linking [[Main:Cheese]] to [[cv:Cheese maker]] is problematic...but mainspace only ever redirects to the current version. If the best target in the current version is cheese maker, why not link to it directly? (It's not, at least for Cheese, since [[DF2012:Cheese]] exists now.) The explanation seems to be claiming that 40d articles that link to Cheese will follow the Mainspace link--but that hasn't been the case for a long while now. Articles in 40d automatically link against other articles in 40d, so that version remains internally consistent no matter where mainspace links to in the current version. For a current example, what do we gain by linking [[Main:Mead]] to [[cv:Mead]] and linking [[DF2012:Mead]] to [[DF2012:Alcohol]]?

If this really is just an outdated procedure, I recommend we drop the mummery and allow mainspace to link to cv:(best target). Double redirects ''may'' work (sometimes, but [[Main:Mead]] demonstrates a common problem where automatic redirection fails), but if they are unnecessary I think they should be avoided, partly because of problems like [[Main:Mead]] and partly because of the effort required to protect double redirects from users who believe they are problematic.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:16, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

:I was just thinking that. I'm currently attempting to write a basic extension to eliminate the need for mainspace redirects entirely, although Mediawiki's class structure may make this more difficult than I had hoped (the only method I've found for resolving redirects takes the ''article text'' instead of a title, e.g. "#REDIRECT ..."). I do agree that the current situation with redirects isn't ideal, so I'm hoping this will work better (once I get it to work). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:42, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Okay, that wasn't quite as clear as I meant it to be. In general, I think this is a tricky situation. Mediawiki wasn't designed to have five content namespaces, and certainly not chains of redirects between them. The problem that was pointed out in the [[DF:REDIR|policy]] is the fact that with:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
pages in the cv: namespace can't use [[<nowiki/>foo]], since the namespace links modification causes it to be treated as [[<nowiki/>cv:foo]] instead, which doesn't exist. The current suggested solution is this:
Main:Foo -> cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
This fixes the problem of [[<nowiki/>foo]] not working on cv pages, but creates issues with double redirects not always working. Another solution, which is more intuitive to new editors, is:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
Both require creating two redirects. The first method has the advantage of ''ensuring'' that the cv redirect exists (otherwise, main:foo would be a redlink), while the second has the advantage of working more reliably in a couple cases.

What I'm trying to do is make main:Foo "jump" to cv:Foo when cv:foo exists, ''even if main:foo doesn't exist'' (basically it would treat all mainspace pages as redirects to cv pages, but only if the cv page exists and not the mainspace page). I had main:Bar jumping to cv:Bar fine, but if cv:Foo redirected to cv:Bar, accessing main:Foo would mysteriously stop at cv:Foo even if I increased the redirect limit. What I'm trying to do now is follow the redirects internally, without relying on Mediawiki to do it automatically - unfortunately, that has proved to be harder than I had hoped (and I sent my web server into an infinite loop while trying). I will try to work on this some more when I get a chance, although I'm not sure when that'll be yet :(. For now, feel free to fix broken double mainspace redirects as necessary, as long as redirects in the DF2012 namespace stay pointing to the right page (and new mainspace redirects get added in the DF2012 namespace too). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

:You're treating cv like a namespace--it's not. It is simply shorthand for "fill in the current version here". [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Briess&diff=182404&oldid=181281 As I discovered a long time ago on a server not far away], linking from Main:Foo to cv:Foo tends to break redirection chains. If, instead of linking to cv:Foo, you link to DF2012:Foo, it might just work. It would, of course, be better if your patch could evaluate cv itself, but even if you have to hardcode the current version it's a single point of maintenance that requires update very infrequently. (For that matter, we could probably dispense with the cv hack entirely and just have a bot update mainspace links from DF2012 to DF201X when we switch to a new version.)--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:05, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
::I know cv isn't a namespace - I was just trying to avoid future confusion when the DF2012 namespace changes. It's interesting that changing "cv" to "DF2012" fixes some broken redirects, although I've found that simply making an edit to a broken redirect can usually fix it as well. I've actually had the most problems with double redirects when the second one (in the DF2012 namespace) doesn't use the DF2012 prefix (e.g. main:Foo containing <nowiki>[[cv:Foo]] and DF2012:Foo containing [[Bar]]</nowiki>). I'd rather keep the cv alias even if it isn't necessary for mainspace redirects when I get the patch to work, since it makes it easier to refer to the current version of the page (for example, several MDF articles contain links to a vanilla page for things that don't change in the mod).
::Also, using aliases like "cv" is supported by Mediawiki; in fact, several WMF wikis use them (for example, "[[wikipedia:WP:Redirects|WP:Redirects]]" on Wikipedia). It's quite likely that Mediawiki isn't processing double redirects using aliases correctly, though, since that's uncommon on most wikis. --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:35, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

In light of the lack of support for the current redirect policy, I propose we replace the current redirect section with:

:Mainspace article pages should use the cv: alias when redirecting to a versioned page, which will automatically update the link when a new version is released. For example, page "Main:Foo" should redirect to page "cv:Bar" (where "Bar" is the page that best describes the topic Foo in the current version).

:Pages in mainspace should only redirect to an older versioned page if that content no longer exists in the current version of the game (e.g. [[Cave river]], [[Chunk]]). In these cases the cv: alias cannot be used.

:Pages inside a versioned namespace should not use the cv: alias. Instead, they should redirect to the best page within that versioned namespace (e.g. [[DF2012:Dodging]], [[v0.31:Drink]]).

:Due to limitations of the wiki software, double redirects should be avoided if possible. When fixing double redirects in mainspace, please make sure to use the cv: alias as appropriate.

If no one objects, I will make this change in a few days.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:21, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

:Okay with me. It may be worth mentioning that double redirects only really need to be changed when they don't work (since changing a lot of redirects that work isn't necessary), but I think it's clearer and more relevant than the current policy. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Done.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:55, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I was finally able to get my extension to work after being motivated by one too many malfunctioning redirects. It now causes nonexistent pages in the main namespace to behave exactly like redirects to their DF2012 counterparts (when linked to, accessed directly, and transcluded). Double redirects also work (up to 100, in fact, although that was a temporary safety measure that I'll probably change). This means we'll be able to safely get rid of all mainspace redirects (redirects that redirect to something other than "cv" will still function if not deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:20, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
:What about articles which don't exist in the current version but do exist in older versions? Will those still need mainspace redirects, or will your extension be able to automatically redirect them to v0.31/40d/23a? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] ([[User talk:Quietust|talk]]) 01:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
::It ignores all mainspace pages that actually have content, including redirects, so pages like [[masons guild]] won't be affected (unless deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:47, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Done and deployed. [[Cat]] is still treated as a redirect, even though I just deleted it (try clicking on the "redirected from" link). Pages that exist are ignored, so [[Masons guild]] and [[History of Dwarf Fortress]] still function normally (as a redirect to a 23a page and a non-redirect, respectively). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm sending around a bot right now to delete all redirects of the format "foo -> cv:foo" (a surprising number don't fit this format, so I'm leaving them alone for now). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:43, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

:I'm confused. Do we use double redirects or not? Is there a single place we define our linking policy (including redirects), and is it updated?
:I had trouble linking to [[Consolidated_development]] in [[v0.34:Dragon]]. It kept pointing to v0.34:Consolidated_development, which does not exist. I ended up linking to Main:Consolidated_development to make it work. --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] ([[User talk:Nahno|talk]]) 10:18, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

::That's a separate problem altogether - links in the versioned namespaces (v0.34, v0.31, 40d, 23a) automatically link to pages within their namespace. I may be able to set up a fallback to mainspace once I'm able to deploy again, but for now the "main:" alias is the intended solution. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 11:36, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

== Google often directs people to the 0.31 page ==

I've noticed a couple of times that finding a wiki page from an external search will often drop me onto a page from an older version. Is it possible to mitigate this somehow for new players? I could imagine something like redirecting old:Bar -> cv:Bar unless the user has come from old:Foo; no idea if that would actually work though. [[User:PeridexisErrant|PeridexisErrant]] ([[User talk:PeridexisErrant|talk]]) 11:48, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

:As a temporary solution, I could write a script that displays a banner of some kind if the user came from an external site. I'll ask Briess if he can do anything on the server level to increase the weighting of the current version's pages. (Obviously there are situations where people are looking for old pages, like [[23a:dungeon master]], so we don't want to disable indexing entirely on old pages.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:03, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

== DF2014? ==

As Toady [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ draws closer to a new release], it might be worthwhile to discuss the addition of a new version to the wiki. The upcoming release covers two years of changes and introduces a number of new plants, foods, drinks, multi-tile trees, climbing, jumping, etc., so it is likely to have significant changes from the current DF2012. To avoid having people start new pages (and lose all the effort spent refining the prior version's page), I think it would be best to have a bot automatically copy over the DF2012 pages as a starting point for DF2014. I would suggest that these copied pages include a noticebox template mentioning that the content may be outdated, so that we can easily track which pages have been reviewed. I think either the {{tl|version check}} or {{tl|old}} template would work. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:43, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

:This is what [[User:QuietBot]] did after the 0.34 release, so it's certainly possible to use the same script to migrate to DF2014. I would like a way of tagging migrated pages, since inaccuracies in some pages went unnoticed for months after they were migrated. Since {{tl|old}} is already in use, {{tl|version check}} may be a better solution (it can be reworded slightly, or we can make a separate template for DF2014 migration). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:23, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
:Made [[Template:DF2014 migrated]] as an example. Any thoughts? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:32, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

== Redirects inconsistency ==

Following a redirect is supposed to be exactly the same as going straight to the page it redirects to, but this actually isn't the case:
* Go to [[Seeds]] and you get [[v0.34:Seed]] (outdated)
* Go to http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Seeds&redirect=no and click on the link and you get to [[DF2014:Seed]] (current)
So if you search for "seed", the top result is the DF2014 version. But search for "seeds" and you get the redirect, which sends you to the outdated page instead. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

While I'm talking about redirects, it seems redirects to sections don't work: see [[DF2014:How do I manage my seeds and crops]]. I know MediaWiki is capable of this trick because Wikipedia does it. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:32, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

:I have absolutely no idea why [[seeds]] redirects to a v0.34 page - it could be a Mediawiki bug. The section links issue is due to a known issue in the redirect extension we use, which has yet to be fixed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:01, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
:It looks like deleting both [[Seeds]] and [[DF2014:Seeds]] fixed things (by allowing AutoRedirect to handle the redirects instead). Feel free to tag any others with {{tl|bad redirect}}. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::It gets stranger. [[Vial]] redirects explicitly to [[cv:Flask]] which displays (when you look at it with &redirect=no) as [[DF2014:Flask]], but still goes to the v0.34 version. It seems redirects interpret the cv: pseudo-namespace (or whatever it's called) in an outdated way. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 18:08, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::I've added a note to this page about this issue. If it gets resolved, the note should be removed. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 21:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

==Reorganizing versions==

The internet deals with moved content... poorly. Google is still linking to v0.34 pages more than a year after the switch to "DF2014", and even the wiki software still has cached links pointing to the old version pages.

I propose reorganizing versions on the wiki to avoid moving content whenever possible. Instead of having a temporary "current version" namespace that changes occasionally, all the current information gets promoted to the Main namespace. When the next version split occurs, the Main articles as of a certain revision number can be copied to the newly-created permanent "old version" namespace, while all the current information remains in Main. This not only fixes the link rot issue, but it has a few other benefits as well: fewer administrative tasks, no lockdown (a historical version of the Main pages can be copied at any point, even if the Main articles are already modified for the new version), almost all the article history is maintained in the Main article (instead of being spread unevenly across multiple versions), no "temporary" namespaces are needed, fewer problematic long redirect chains, and hopefully less user confusion (since Main gets priority in search results, etc.).

As an example, today we would not have a DF2014 namespace (which is good because "temporary" namespaces historically disappear anyway). If you ran a search for [[seed]] you'd end up at Main:seed, which would have all the current information on seeds. The version box at the top of the page would still link to the older versions of the seed article. When a new version is released, an admin would choose a revision number and copy the Main:seed article as it exists at that revision number to v0.40:seed. That's it. One historical copy that needs little to no new editing, and zero redirections/moves.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:02, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

:Makes sense to me. It would involve a lot of work, though (e.g. fixing templates and categories to account for the current version being in mainspace), although that should be doable thanks to {{tl|category}}, {{tl|version switch}}, etc.. A bot could be set up to copy revisions from before a release date as well, which would be more difficult (and maybe slower) than a direct copy, but not severely. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:24, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

:Actually, there are a few issues with that, namely that there wouldn't be an easy way to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned mainspace pages. There are ways to resolve Google search priority (we can exclude pages from older versions from search engine results if there are newer versions of those pages available, for example). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:47, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::There aren't very many non-versioned mainspace pages, and determining if a page is versioned is as simple as looking for the version template and/or categories added by the version template (e.g. copy [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Category:Current this category] instead of Main:*). The problem with "suggesting" newer pages to Google is that they obviously aren't crawling our wiki regularly (if they were, the fact that the mainspace redirects point to new pages would automatically be picked up). Even if your Google hints worked they wouldn't do anything for all the other broken links out on the 'net.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:35, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: Google actually crawls the wiki constantly - we probably get crawl hits from google for a continuous block of 2-3 hours per day, each and every day. Why they are slow to update is beyond me though. I can't remember why we didn't do this initially, but there was a technical limitation involved if I remember correctly. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] ([[User talk:Briess|talk]]) 22:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: There are <meta> tags that can be used to hide pages from search results (for search engines that recognize them, that is). Searching for {{tl|av}} or [[:Category:Current]] might work, although we'd have to make sure all of the DF2014 pages include that (some pages don't, particularly some disambiguation pages, although all of them should). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:53, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

:Is there a particular reason main and current are separate to begin with?—[[User:CLA|CLA]] ([[User talk:CLA|talk]]) 00:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

::It's mostly intended to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned pages and make version-related templates simpler to work with, since every versioned page has a namespace. I wasn't active here in 2010 when this system was created, so Briess and Emi would know more.
::Another issue I just thought of with Loci's suggestion is categories - currently, categories like [[:Category:Animals]] are used to organize the versioned sub-categories. Sure, we can change {{tl|Category}} to categorize mainspace pages in [[:Category:v0.40:Animals]] or [[:Category:DF2014:Animals]], but that would be less straightforward because there wouldn't be a namespace with that name (until pages are migrated when a newer major version is released). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

:Moving current pages to the main namespace sounds like a great idea. -[[User:Jecowa|Jecowa]] ([[User talk:Jecowa|talk]]) 20:47, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Another thought: dealing with migrating redirects could be difficult with this proposal - specifically, determining which redirects should be migrated to a versioned namespace. Redirects can't contain {{tl|av}}, at least not before ``#REDIRECT``. I ''think'' it would be possible to copy pages in two stages, though - all non-redirects first, then all redirects whose targets were also copied. Thoughts? Anything I'm missing? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:41, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Some subpages (particularly /raw and /Edit notice) also deliberately lack {{tl|av}}, although those shouldn't be too hard to handle. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

:Redirect pages (and all other edge cases I've looked at) can be included in categories (like [[:Category:Current]]) to determine whether or not they should be copied into an archival version. But if the redirects are "properly qualified" then they can all be copied over blindly. Mainspace redirects pointing to versioned information should use a blank namespace (which will be automatically constrained to the archival namespace); mainspace redirects pointing to unversioned information should use an explicit "Main" (which will automatically link back to the unversioned page). Then, when [[[[Toady]]]] gets copied to [[[[v0.4x:Toady]]]] it will point back to [[[[Main:Toady One]]]]. Meanwhile, [[[[Beer]]]], copied to [[[[v0.4x:Beer]]]], will properly point to [[[[v0.4x:Alcohol]]]].--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:00, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

::I think qualifying redirects is the best solution here - categorizing redirects manually is another possible source of errors, since categories (or a lack thereof) would only be visible on the redirect page itself, and [[:Category:Current]] is a hidden category. Copying over mainspace redirects into versioned namespaces would also resolve some issues that have come up due to those not reliably existing currently. I should be able to set up a bot script to add "main:" to current mainspace redirects (and it shouldn't break anything, since those redirects go to other mainspace pages anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:57, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

(Note: I wrote all of this without noticing the previous discussion above.) I was wondering, when the wiki creates a new namespace for a major release again, if it is possible to ''not'' create a namespace for the next current version (e.g. "DF202x") and instead have the mainspace articles (which are currently redirects) become the new cv and move the content there. Therefore, [[cv:Cat]] would just be "[[Cat]]" (or [[Main:Cat]]).

Certain namespace-related templates like [[Template:Ns/0]] would need to be changed, though nothing significant as far as I know. For most cases, any "DF2014" would be replaced with "Main" or even blank. There's also multiple extensions handling the current namespace system and they may need to be modified too, though I'm not sure if or how much. I'm guessing based on the discussions above that it will change stuff up.

My reason is the current namespace is increasingly becoming more anachronistic. "DF2014" could be misinterpreted as "this page is about the 2014 version of the game" or "this page was last updated in 2014", which I've seen a few people in forums mention. Granted that [[Template:Av]] is on the top of very article, I still think the namespace is inconsistent with the recentness of the article. But how is this related to what I'm asking for? Let's say we continue the current system: if we happen to do a new namespace change this year and create DF2020, the next major release (after graphics/UI) will be mythgen, which is estimated to take several years to develop (the Big Wait), and so the anachronism will start over again. The proposed way will prevent this from occurring for the next major release and every release thereafter.

I think the confusion with having a namespace that becomes old-fashioned overtime supersedes the confusion with not marking current versioned articles with a namespace. Most users just search "Cat" on the search bar and naturally expect to get information about the latest release of DF. So if users go a page that's just titled "Cat", they won't expect outdated info about cats from a previous release. That's how the current system works anyways. We'll be skipping the two-step process that we have now. It'll make several wiki tasks much simpler as well. Editors can create new articles for current versions without remembering to add a namespace. It'll fix any existing issues with (double) redirects; instead of [[Main:Kitten]] redirecting to [[cv:Kitten]], which goes to [[DF2014:Kitten]], which then redirects to [[DF2014:Cat]], [[Main:Kitten]] would just redirect to [[Main:Cat]]. And the cv: alias will no longer be necessary since "cv:" = "Main:" and will be forever.

There's no need to differentiate the current version and previous versions with a namespace for the current version is what I'm saying. Articles of previous versions will retain their respective namespaces. Users will still type "40d:Cat" to go to the 40d version of the article, but if they want the current version, they'll just type "Cat" (like now). The mainspace containing the "live" version of an article is natural and would create no uncertainty when browsing the wiki. And it would simplify the wiki somewhat and future-proof this anachronism problem. As a bonus, this change will also prevent web search engines from showing previous version pages when typing "DF cat" or something. (This isn't happening right now as DF2014 has been the current namespace for ~6 years, but it'll happen again when everything moves to a new namespace.)

This is the gist of it, and I may have ignored most of the problems with this proposal. I have personally wished for the whole version namespacing be made less complicated and have been seeking for a solution, and I feel like this is the best way to go about in the future. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:27, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:<s>Whoops, looks like Loci already proposed this exact thing long ago. I definitely missed that discussion and should have checked first. My apologies. I'll move my text to that section and remove this one. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:36, 14 August 2020 (UTC)</s> Done. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:40, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:The main issue I have with that is that putting pages about the current version in a namespace also differentiates between those pages and pages not about ''any'' version (for example, [[Toady One]] does not need a 40d or v0.34 page). Yes, we can use {{tl|av}} to mark versioned pages, but people often forget to add that to new pages. The current system also allows determining whether a page is versioned or not from its title, which makes migrations a lot faster. Relying on {{tl|av}} would require either reading the content of every page (which would slow scripts down significantly) or cross-checking with the list of all pages including the template (feasible, but a bit more complicated, and still susceptible to missing templates). I suppose that manually fixing and migrating pages missing {{tl|av}} later wouldn't be too much work, though.
:I am definitely in favor of changing "DF2014" (or a new namespace) to "Current", though. I was in favor of "DF2014" in 2014, but I don't think it makes sense anymore, and "Current" seemed to be a popular alternative in both the DF2012 and DF2014 discussions on the matter. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

== Weird redirect behaviour ==

[[Pump stack]] redirects to [[cv:Screw pump#Pump stack]]. If you look at the redirect itself it says it redirects to DF2014 namespace, which is correct. But if you actually follow the redirect, it goes to v0.34 namespace. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 16:10, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
:Yeah, that's part of the issue described in the above section (the wiki caching part, not on Google's end.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:00, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

== v50 organization ==

Some wiki admins have had a talk on Discord and decided that the most sustainable path forward is to put content for all future versions of DF in the main namespace. We will be working on a bot to do this in the next few days. Feel free to chime in with suggestions here. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

:Is it maybe possible to do backwards-namespacing? Like we have a "Main" namespace, which people are free to update, and whenever there's a new version of DF the "Main" namespace is copied into a namespace for the then old version, much like how you'd branch a stable branch from a development branch when working with a git-project? [[User:Therahedwig|Therahedwig]] ([[User talk:Therahedwig|talk]]) 23:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

::Yeah, we could do that if we decide to. We were talking about doing that for v50, actually, and might still do something similar to preserve edit history if it doesn't end up being too hard to automate. Our hope is that we will not introduce new namespaces for v50 -> v5x, unless there is a serious breaking change (and hopefully there isn't one). But if we change our mind, one advantage of the type of migration you mentioned is that it can be done retroactively - we can copy historical revisions that were current at the time of the release, and would only lose some typo fixes made after the release that apply to earlier versions as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:11, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

ETA is < 24 hours. Doing some final checks on a migration script. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 07:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

: We should really have a task list as there are many things that change and need updating. Including but not limited to:
:* Most templates that used the previous namespace convention broke, including nav templates.
:* Many game files changed locations and their pages need to be updated.
:* Raws need to be updated.
:* Various features added, changed, removed.
:* UI has been changed -- though I am more inclined to wait for classic release to avoid extra work --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

"''Raws need to be updated.''" Including applying text wraparound where necessary, I suppose - more than a few of them have proven to be that special kind of...''difficult'' to navigate otherwise, shall we say? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 12:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:There is already a task list in the [[#v50 migration|section below]] that includes templates and raws, with an explanation. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

== v50 migration ==

The initial migration script is done. New content is in the '''main''' namespace, e.g. [[Cat]]. Old content is still at [[DF2014:Cat]]. History was migrated to the ''new'' (main namespace) articles.

I know several things are broken still. Please reply if you find any others:
<div style="border-left: 2px solid red">
* <s>Versioned templates haven't been migrated yet (e.g. {{tl|vermin}} on [[Ant]])</s>
** Fixed. Most were migrated by a bot.
* <s>Raws are missing on all pages that use them.</s>
** This also affects sidebars, such as on [[Cat]] and [[Microcline]].
** Update: The DFRawFunctions extension has been upgraded to include v50 raws, using the "v50:" prefix for filenames instead of "DF2014:". <s>I haven't finished a migration script to create the /raw pages themselves, but they can typically be created manually by copying the DF2014 /raw pages and changing "DF2014" to "v50" everywhere.</s> —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
** Update 2: Raws have been added for all pages! They were copied from the "DF2014" pages and had "DF2014" replaced with "v50", which appears to have worked from a spot-check, but let me know if you find any problems. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
* Some pages where the DF2014 page was a redirect to a main namespace page that contained content were migrated incorrectly.
** In this case, the main namespace page is usually a redirect to itself. This can be fixed by undoing LethosorBot's edit to the main namespace page, then copying the content to the DF2014 page.
** Update: most seem to have been fixed manually - thanks! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* <s>Some main-namespace talk pages redirect to DF2014 talk pages. Some of these redirects work, and some (usually older ones) do not.</s>
** Fixed with a bot. Some redirects from talk pages to other deleted talk pages are now broken, e.g. [[Talk:Above_ground]] (exists) -> [[Talk:Tile attributes]] (redlink). I am leaving them like that because they redirect to where the talk page should be created, but I'm also fine with people deleting them if they really want to. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* {{tl|quality}} for new articles is disabled (see below)
* Some links from DF2014 to Main weren't working: e.g. the version selector [[DF2014:Mason's workshop]] was linking to [[DF2014:Main:Mason's workshop]] instead of [[Main:Mason's workshop]]. I'm not sure exactly why, but I fixed it with a change to the NamespaceLinks extension. Let me know if you spot similar broken links. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:19, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
</div>

—[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:54, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:The quality levels of the 50.03 pages seem to be missing. I'm not sure if that's covered under that first point. [[User:Trainzack|Trainzack]] ([[User talk:Trainzack|talk]]) 06:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::If the the [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Quality]] feature can be made to work with namespace scheme change, I suggest to automatically assign the lowest quality rating to all pages, alternately add the {{tl|old}} to all pages. Otherwise there will be a lot of pages that will fall through the cracks. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::I disabled {{tl|quality}} in the main namespace because it would require some rework to make the rating script and the template work properly there. Feel free to take a stab at the template. I will see what can be done on the extension side. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::What needs to be done on the template side? I'm not sure I see too big of an issue leaving pages as "unknown-quality" for now (or just change the default to tattered) until we get the rating script working. Is that script up anywhere, anything that could be helped with? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:10, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::They're already marked as unknown. Really the only issue I know of with the template is that it doesn't show up with some of the newer skins we added, and that can be fixed by getting rid of the absolute positioning. As for the script, it can be found at https://github.com/DF-Wiki/QualityRatings, and the issue is really only with the configuration system not recognizing the main namespace as valid. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:29, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::Great, I started having a crack at fixing the template with different themes. Is the preference to get some CSS going and then include it in the global stylesheet (i.e different styles per theme) or to try and get a "one size fits all" fix? —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 08:14, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I would rather avoid custom site-wide CSS if we can. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I appreciate that, I think it's the simplest solution to add a few lines to common.css though. Unless there is a way to attach CSS specifically to a template, I saw a few extensions that allowed that but I'm not sure if any are present in the wiki at the moment. Regardless there already exists a class `div.topicon` that is specifically for the quality ratings, is there an issue with expanding this class to accommodate the themes? The list of themes where the quality rating display is broken/invisible: Citizen, MinervaNeue, MonoBook. —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 21:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::What do you think of moving the template out of the topicon entirely and just placing it in a div? It would take up a (hopefully) small amount of vertical space in the article. [[User:Lethosor/Sandbox/Quality_test]] is an example. Unfortunately it isn't possible to prevent other templates from displaying above the quality this way ([https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User:Lethosor/Sandbox/Quality_test&oldid=283883]). So maybe we do need some custom CSS after all if we want that. I'm open to trying out whatever you propose. I'm a bit worried about future-proofing against skins we add later (particularly a mobile skin) but at least MediaWiki supports skin-specific global CSS as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:33, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::I would rather we avoid taking any more vertical space in the article. The growing block pyramid at the top, starting with version template, is annoying. If you end up placing it inside the article space please use a slim box 100% wide that would include both.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 01:19, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::Agreed with you Jan, however I see that as two different tasks (ArticleVersion template changes, getting quality back on pages). I made a test adjustment to the quality and it takes up a negligable amount of extra space. See [[User:Vallode/sandbox#Page_quality]] for the example, we'd be able to completely remove "topicon" (unless it is used somewhere else?) and then potentially move on to making the ArticleVersion template into a slim version on the left-hand-side instead of a large box? Let me know what you think. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:35, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

It appears some pages are redirecting recursively and never resolving correctly, like the [[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Character_table&redirect=no|character table]] and [[tileset repository]] 07:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
: Indeed, these can be caught here: [[Special:DoubleRedirects]] --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

It might be useful to change the notice title to "release information '''for editors'''" --[[Special:Contributions/142.59.195.176|142.59.195.176]] 10:26, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Can do. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::New here, hello. Should we set a date where we remove/only show the banner for logged in users. There are (some) pages that have 4 different notices about the upgrade. [[Engraving]] is one such page, the top banner states "information for editors", we then have the "this page was migrated" banner, a version selection which warns the article might be inaccurate, and a smaller banner saying the page might need to be updated. Quite a lot of screen space, I think we can start to slowly reduce the amount of warnings this coming month? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 10:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Unfortunately, only showing info to logged-in users is difficult with how MediaWiki caching works. In terms of reducing warnings, there is a discussion [[Template_talk:ArticleVersion#.22Note_that_some_content_may_still_need_to_be_updated..22|here]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:43, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::As for [[Engraving]] specifically, the {{tl|old}} banner was actually present on [[DF2014:Engraving]] as well and got carried over with the migration. I removed it, and agree that it was redundant. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:46, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Main talkpages seem to redirect to DF2014 talk. Not sure if it is intentional but I like it, though we should pay attention when creating new discussion relating to v50 ending up there.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 14:18, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:That's unintentional. I specifically wrote the migration script to not move talk pages, but that has the side-effect of leaving any previously-created "Talk -> DF2014 talk" redirects intact. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Yo Lethosor, are we adding graphic sprites for the pages in some way? Or are we waiting for you to add some sort of new template or something? I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that the current templates don't allow that. Not sure if I'm allowed to change/create any templates either, as I don't want to break things for hundreds of pages. Edit: And IF the icons are allowed, should they be left alone, or 2×-3× sized like how the Minecraft wiki does it? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 14:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Depends on which templates you mean. There are copyright concerns with uploading a premium sprite sheet, for instance. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm not talking about uploading an entire sprite sheet. I'm just talking about individual icons for each respective page. One image for cows, one for horses, one for werebeasts, etc. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 16:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::If we do that for every creature in the sprite sheet, that's not much different (in terms of copyright) from uploading the entire sprite sheet. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:09, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::Is there someone we can talk to about that? We finally get this new game with graphics, and then we can't use the very graphics of the game? No matter what the rules are, I'd say that would be the stupidest thing ever. I know I'm infamous here when it comes to copyright and images and stuff, but about 80% of game wikis out there are completely unofficial, and use game file images like no one's business. I can't imagine anyone's door being knocked on if we used the game's sprites, but I won't add any here until we have a go-ahead. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 17:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::...I've made noise in Mayday's direction on this matter, at least (prob an incorrect maneuver, ''but'').[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 17:55, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: I hope some sort of arrangement can be made so we can use the new sprites with permission/limits, just as we are using the raw files. Otherwise we are all (devs and editors alike) shooting ourselves in the foot here.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::I just thought of something. We're supposedly not allowed to upload entire sprite sheets, right? What if - for the time being - we just use a few of them for the purpose of testing out new infoboxes? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 21:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::I don't know. If someone could ask Kitfox and post the response here, that would be great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::::I've reached out to Alexandra, but she hasn't answered yet. Until then I found these old approvals from the previous community manager, Feeona: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8243633#msg8243633 link1], [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=176640.msg8243642#msg8243642 link2]). Waiting for a newer response until we begin mass uploads is probably the politer option, but like Zippy said, it is also standard for wikis to use game sprites with less approval. I second their idea of trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. On the extreme off-chance (and I do think it is) Kitfox protests we can always remove these few. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:19, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::And here is a third, more official statement: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8249718#msg8249718 link3]). Perhaps that address of info@kitfoxgames.com is the better channel to ask for a confirmation, rather than Discord DMs, but I will be going to bed, so it is best if someone else does that. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::Thanks for tracking this down! Ok, sprites should be fine, but let's avoid uploading the entire premium tileset as a single image, for instance (as the forum thread says, "use common sense"). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::: Looks good, permission is always preferable over fairuse, I think it is a win win for all involved. I agree that we shouldn't upload entire sprite sheets (e.g. there is no reason to upload the windmill from every direction or whole construction phase for workshops) and that there are a lot of details that needs to be ironed out through testing. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 05:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::We have a green light on uploading all and any sprites. Their response to me can be seen [https://i.imgur.com/BhmHjzC.png here]. I'm sure someone else confirmed it before me. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:00, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Shifting temporarily to a new issue, is the documentation of [[Template:ArticleVersion]] outdated? It would seem so to me, since the current version no longer has its own namespace, with the templates needing updating being different ones. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 18:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:I think it is still accurate enough. We left open the possibility of making another namespace in the future, albeit with a different migration strategy - see [[#v50 organization|above]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Some Changes to infoboxes might be needed. Too bad [[User:Doorkeeper]] isn't around. He did a great work with navbox project--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:52, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

I just realized that raw files aren't stored as regular wiki pages but loaded via the DFRawFunctions extension (hence the need to update). Good news it's going to be handled in bulk, consistently and relatively easy to updated. Even better it's Lethosor problem ;) Also I just realized that all the "raw files" (txt files in the new vanilla folder) are released into the public domain. Both are probably not news to the vets but I'll leave it here for those who less up to date like myself. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:35, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: I noticed that some templates aren't working properly in the new namespace, e.g. [[Basalt]] entry had its raw updated manually but the infobox fail to show any details. Cursory look suggest {{t|layerlookup/0}} need a minor tweak. This should do the work
:: Replace: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
:: With___: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{</nowiki>:<nowiki>{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
: Not sure what the plan and ETA with raws update so I didn't touch this high usage template for now. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 08:11, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

::Please do feel free to make this update. I am still working on a script to create the <code>/raw</code> pages themselves. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be an idea to add to the Sitenotice to remove the {{tl|migrated article}} tag when an article has been fully updated? I see many articles that seem to be updated still have the tag. And/or advise to make use of the {{tl|verify}} for sections still in need of checking? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 10:12, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:Probably a good shout. The "see this page" link does include the detail on removing but we should more explicitly encourage removing the banner once a page has at least been looked over. [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:01, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

== v50 specific issues ==
=== Graphics===
Follow up on the use of game sprites and the need to trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. First sprite [[:File:Beds v50.png]] was uploaded and used on [[Bed]] entry. Any thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Seems like it should be rearranged to be horizontal. Also, has there been a serious discussion about copyright? Full screenshots are 100% fine, but you start going into a grey area when you upload pieces of a spritesheet. I'm of the opinion that it's all fine as long as it's inconvenient to reconstruct the full sheet from the individual images. Maybe a further restriction could be you shouldn't upload any of the art unless it's used in an infobox (maybe an exception for pieces of the UI). And one more restriction could be you shouldn't show everything, like in your bed example, maybe just the wooden bed is good enough, leave out the stone and metal, especially since those can only be made from strange moods. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:43, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::Actually, your bed image is kinda bad for showing off what a bed looks like because it doesn't show the pillow/blankets. That might point to cropped screenshots being the best path, although less convenient for the uploader, as you don't get details left out. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:46, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::I created a new license template [[Template:Copyright game]], based it on the way the RimWorld wiki does things. Call it a prototype, but it's probably how your bed image should be labelled. Indeed, I added it to it already. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]])

::: I agree that the horizontal arrangement would suit better here and that we should strive to represent how things look in-game. Otherwise, I am not too concerned about people being able to reconstruct anything (lets just say that ''anyone'' interested in that can get the real thing from the game files), also it seem we have permission to use the sprits on top of fairuse. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 19:55, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

::: Modifying the existing template to allow the inclusion of the new sprites is easy (Something like [https://ibb.co/zFXCrjd this]?) The big question is the matter of consistency is there any exceptions that will break the format (size wise with variant bloat for example), the sprite naming format, etc --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:44, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::: If we are going to show a variant for each material type, then maybe these should be added as separate images so we can add a tooltip for each image. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:49, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

:I've got another prototype going here and here: [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]] and [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox]]. (You'll need to add the css stuff to your own /vector.css). Basically it's a way to recolor images using css classes. No idea if there's a better way. Also, the real implementation would require a change to [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Should mention, there ''is'' a different way, just upload each image 16 times, one for each coloring. But maybe that's not very elegant. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:45, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

: It should be noted that soon the classic edition will be released, hence one should plan to have both the Premium and classic alongside in that little space --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:14, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm looking into a tab extension to potentially support this in infoboxes. Perhaps [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Tabs Extension:Tabs]? I tried [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TabberNeue Extension:TabberNeue], but it displays a placeholder if JavaScript is disabled, which isn't great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: The Neue Tabber seem to works pretty much like the old one (which fandom [https://coding-help.fandom.com/wiki/Tabber#Adding_images_into_tabbers still use]) defaulting to showing the first tab only. Quick look suggest that neue work the same, plus the notice that 'Tabber requires Javascript to function' warning? if so, and if it is a bother, then you should be able to edit out the tabberneue-noscript string in code. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:29, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: I much prefer your tabber solution, but if that fails we can also use the gallery slideshow mode. If so, beware it has no way to control image size so the images have to be maliciously uploaded using the exact same size. example:
<gallery mode="slideshow">
File:SteelSample.png
File:TinSample.png
File:ZincSample.png
File:GoldSample.png
</gallery> --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

==== adding premium set to Infobox ====
I am unclear where are we going with this? 
1) Will (A) tabs be implemented, (B) we be using mediawiki toggle [[Template_talk:V50_workshop|example]] for premium and classic/blocked, (c) put images side by side, or (d) something else? 
2) Also [[silver]] and [[Pig iron]] use very different image style for example. 
3) Anything else you want ? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

: Personally, I would love tabs to be implemented, but I think that side by side might be best for most. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
: Here is rough layout we can use. It should fit most buildings given the default sprite size. There is also a different floor plan for both (inspired by reddit)

{|
|- valign=top
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 5×5
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>
|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|colspan=2|<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">
[[File:Siege workshop.png|center|160px]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab"">
{|
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%; font-size: 125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Siege workshop}}</center>
|style="line-height: 1em; font-size: 125%;"|
{| style="border-spacing:4px;"
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 3×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|colspan=2 style="text-align: right;"|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="float:left; border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%;"|
<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">[[File:Carpenter's workshop.png]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab""><center>
{| style="font-size: 175%; border-spacing: 0; background-color: black; border: 2px solid black"
|- 
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|"|7:0:0}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|{{=}}|6:0:0}}
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|]|0:0:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
|}</center></div>
|
{| style="border-spacing:5px;"
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×1
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:Screw_press.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Screw press}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Screw press}}</center>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:water_wheel.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Water wheel}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;line-height:normal;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Water wheel}}</center>
|}
|}
:Any thoughts on the direction and or any and all of its elements? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:16, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

::I kind of like side-by-side, if it fits. If anyone wants to implement a toggle button or tabs, I would ask that that be implemented in a template for now, so that e.g. we could change a toggle button to tabs in a single place if we decide to install an extension to support that. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

::: I noticed a comment saying that [[impassable tile]] are no longer used in v50, is that true for all constructions? If so, floor plans are no longer needed, making things much easier as we can fit everything in except the 5v5 constructions like trade depot (and even these can be placed one above the other if so desired). If not, any thought on the alternative floor plan design? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

:::: None of the constructions have blocking tiles any more from my experience playing. I haven't tested siege weaponry with that stuff, but none of the workshops have it, nor does any furniture. (walls and fortifications will of course obstruct movement [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 18:47, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
::::: Ok, I have removed them from v50. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I have added a basic side by side variant to [[Template:V50 workshop]] and [[Template:Building]] for testing, let us know if there any issues. Few notes:
* The default image naming scheme of <code>workshop-name.png</code> will likely conflict with existing images here or on commons, maybe another naming scheme should be used like <code>v50 workshop-name.png</code> as it is with ascii pictures.
* There is inconsistency in image size. If you want to use large zoomed images then toggle is best, otherwise they need to be all in native size (96px for 3x3).
* In the current version the code roughly centers the images and if there is a big image like with [[Siege workshop]] it drops to a new line --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

How about combining shortcut keys and the new menu icons:
<div style="color:white; font-size: large; text-shadow: -1px -1px 0 #000, 1px -1px 0 #000, -1px 1px 0 #000, 1px 1px 0 #000;">[[File:Ui b.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">b</div>[[File:Ui bo.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">o</div>[[File:Ui bol.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div>[[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div></div>
--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 02:24, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

:I worry that this is difficult to read (I read it as "boil" at first). I would rather use something like {{tl|k}} with a known background. What about something like this? [[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:0px;">{{k|l}}</div> or, alternatively, using flexbox without any overlap: [[File:Ui boll.png]]{{k|l}} —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:37, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Same, but that is the best I came up with. We can use the key or maybe someone can help improve the design. Also 'l' is hard to read even with {{t|key}}.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:05, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: I added a {{t|Menu icon}} to start things so others can have a go with it. Also any thoughts on the icon naming convention (their shortcut sequence), is there easier/better way? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:36, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::[[User:BarelyCreative]] updated the template: {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y}}. I think it looks good, thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::I like that, yeah. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::There were some places where it didn't make sense so display every icon all the time (like step-by-step guides), so I changed it slightly to allow display of fewer icons using "num" and counting from the end: <nowiki>{{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-;|num=2}}</nowiki> {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-|num=2}} [[User:BarelyCreative|BarelyCreative]] ([[User talk:BarelyCreative|talk]]) 09:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

==== Bizarre palette-swapping idea/prototype ====
No idea if this is a good idea, since it takes a bit of time to set up, and there might be some performance issues... and maybe display issues?

But take a look at this:
{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=amber}}

It's way to swap palettes on an image, although the image itself is a table, with each cell representing a pixel. The template itself looks like this:
<code><nowiki>{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=saffron}}</nowiki></code>
Input the pattern and desired palette name.

I've got a larger showcase here: [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase]]. Only did a rock pattern so far, but all palettes are implemented.
The major use for this would be on each stone, metal, wood, etc. type's page. The palette could be read directly from the raws. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 03:22, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

:From a technical perspective, my primary concern is indeed performance. Both on the server side and client side, a large number of tables that large (in terms of markup and cell count, that is) tend to be resource-intensive to generate and render. I saw your image-filtering experiments on [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]], and while that strikes me as a newer and less-backwards-compatible approach, it would probably be more resource-friendly.
:Is this color adjustment something the game is doing natively? i.e. does this accurately match what the game displays? I bet we could slap together an image-filtering extension (or find an existing one?) that can do this if needed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::Yeah that's what I suspected. The images the template creates are spot on, checked it against a screenshot I took of some mica rocks in-game. The css stuff is unfortunately totally incorrect, was cool to learn about it though, so not a complete waste of my time :p. The premium, in-game graphics are true sprites, basically patterns of indexed colors. Each of the in-game colors (which are significantly expanded over the 16 ascii colors, there's 116/117) there is a palette defined in "\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_descriptors_graphics\graphics\images\palettes.png". Each indexed color of the sprite is swapped for the corresponding color in the palette. Because of that, the css stuff doesn't work since it's doing the hue/saturation/brightness changes to the entire sprite.
::I've looked into an existing mediawiki extension, couldn't find anything. One thing I did't really look at is some type of lua script/module that would basically emulate what the game is doing. So some function that takes in the base image as well as the desired palette, and based on that finds and replaces each color. No idea what mediawiki's capabilities are on that front. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 05:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
:::We do have Scribunto installed now, so it's totally possible to do something in Lua too - forgot about that. I can add you to the group that grants access to edit the Module namespace if you want to give that a shot. If we use an extension, we'd probably need a custom one, similar to DFDiagram (or perhaps DFDiagram could be extended - it's in dire need of a rewrite anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:43, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::::I asked around on the mediawiki irc, I think scribunto/lua is a deadend, at least for taking an uploaded image and doing stuff to it with a lua script. However I did come up with this even more bizarre solution, using block elements. [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase2]], maybe less resource intensive? Definitely displays a lot worse though, probably unusable.
::::{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock2|palette-name=saffron}}
::::I dunno, maybe none of this is worth it and we should just write some external program to put all the images together offline, and then just mass upload. It wouldn't be ''that'' many... [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 06:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

====Is there an easy way to just paste images from the clipboard?====

I use KDE spectacle to take screenshots straight to the clipboard (after cropping) -- is there an easy way to just paste (and auto-upload) an image into an article? It would make it a lot easier to contribute images. [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:35, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Unfortunately there is not. I would be open to a MediaWiki extension to support this if someone finds one. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Looks like this could do it, but I haven't used it before: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SimpleBatchUpload [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 19:41, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

====Standards for adding graphical version screenshots and images====

Hello, new user looking into adding imagery from the new version. Is there a standard for quality of new screenshots or images? I noticed that at a certain zoom level (2 zooms in from the furthest zoomed-out view), the graphics appear crisp and 1:1 pixel scaled, and I would propose that all images be taken at this scale whenever possible. If they need to be displayed larger, they should be nearest neighbor scaled in a photo editing program at 100% increments (Microsoft Paint will do this if you first select the image rather than directly scaling the whole canvas). I would also propose that images should be cropped to conform to the 32x32 pixel grid when possible, though this could be problematic with so many new graphical elements exceeding the bounds of their tiles. I would say the best practice for capturing artwork for items, furniture etc. ought to be done in a 3x3 open area to avoid shadows from nearby walls, or else extracted from the raw files (if this doesn't run afoul of being able to re-create the graphical version using those assets).

I know that perfect is the enemy of good, and any documentation is better than none, but just thought I'd ask about this, and see if/where something like this ought to be posted. [[User:Unclesporky|Unclesporky]] ([[User talk:Unclesporky|talk]]) 13:58, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:It has been stated in [[Template:V50 workshop]] that <q>screenshots should be at the "native" resolution</q> but someone could edit the [[Screenshot]] page for best practice for the steam version. Or post some examples in [[Talk:Screenshot]] to find out what is best? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:21, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

====How would I/should I go about putting creature sprites on their pages?====

Howdy. New player and wiki user here. I wanted to try and help update the wiki to the Steam release of DF, so I figured I'd chip in by putting each creature's sprites on their respective page, since I'll often look up a creature I have yet to see in game only to be met by a blue J, or whatever. I found all of the game's creature sprites in C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_creatures_graphics\graphics\images, so I figured I could just chop those up in Photoshop and stick them on here no problem, but the programming syntax/whatever it is on this site is incredibly confusing, I don't know how I'd actually go about doing it. I figured I'd just find the spot on the page where the little letter is and replace that with the image code, but it seems the pages are built using heavily nested templates that I can't even begin to understand. Any help?--[[User:Treese|Treese]] ([[User talk:Treese|talk]]) 03:07, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:Based on [[User:Zippy|Zippy]]'s work at {{tl|Creaturelookup_b}}, I added an "image" parameter to {{tl|creaturelookup/0}}, which is what creature pages should all be using. See [[Dwarf]] and [[Cow]] for examples. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:37, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Hotkeys/Menu navigation ===
Most key bindings and menus have changed. Should the article reflect a) only the old version, b) only the GUI version or c) both? For example, [[Bridge|bridges]] used to be built via {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}, but now it's in Place strucutures {{k|b}} -> Constructions {{k|n}} -> Bridge {{k|b}}. What should be written in the article? Currently, it's {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}. I ''think'' it should be only b), but I am not sure if there will be differences regarding hotkeys or menus between the premium version and the free version and then, c) would be the most appropriate option. --[[User:Prometherus|Prometherus]] ([[User talk:Prometherus|talk]]) 10:16, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: Not sure. I wish the classic release soon --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 16:45, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: Are you Toady's herald? Looks like it was just released! [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:18, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: And our questions are answered, the old hotkeys seem to have been thrown out. Part of me is disappointed (useless muscle memory) but also relieved (unified UI for both versions is good in general and for the wiki). [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:25, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: According to info, in a sort of 'demo version' at that. I'll wait a little while longer, for myself.[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::::It's unlikely that keybindings in it will change significantly. My vote is that we should include information for both premium and classic, everywhere. Hopefully the keybindings are not different between versions. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:26, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::Shouldn't it be based on the 50 or what verion the article is written for? [[User:Dominick|Dominick]] [[User_talk:dominick|(TALK)]] 18:42, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::: The keybindings seem to be consistent between versions, (haven't checked exhausitvely, but since the menu layout is the same I think it is a good assumption). Should also keep in mind/consider that not all actions have keybindings. An option would be write 'Click on the <Example Text> icon or press {{k|E}}' [[User:Koos|Koos]] ([[User talk:Koos|talk]]) 23:14, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

=== Removed features & concepts ===

Since they're removed concepts, I've set [[Room]] to be a redirect for [[DF2014:Room]] and created [[Template:Activity zones]] for the nav bar bedrooms, etc, and made the necessary changes to [[Bedroom]] for it. Is this the correct approach, before I go on much further? (also a note, if it is, then [[Template:v50_rooms]] probably needs to be deleted) I also imagine that considering the number of changes in the interface, that things like [[Adventure mode]] and related pages might best be truncated to "not in 50.03" and when it does make it across, being more deliberately brought over in pieces? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 06:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:Usually it is marked with [[Template:Removed_feature]]. For example: [[Dipscript]] or [[Party]]. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:45, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:: Ah, that's fair. Should that be mentioned in [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Versions#Redirects]]? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 10:03, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::I think the redirect policy mostly had in mind things that were removed a ''long'' time ago, like [[Tax collector]] and [[Economy]] (and the latter actually has a stub page as well). I guess we could clarify. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:34, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: The "current" redirects also cause the version box to incorrectly show that the current version has a page - e.g. [[23a:Cave_river]] shows a v50.04 version, but it's just a redirect back to that version. Similarly, what should happen to redirects like [[Clothes maker]], where a concept has evolved? It currently goes to [[23a:Clothes maker]] - that's correct if the user is trying to look up a very old concept, but if a new user is looking for "how to make clothes", they should be directed to [[Clothier]]. --[[User:Danny252|Danny252]] ([[User talk:Danny252|talk]]) 12:16, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: One should be careful with cv redirects. Most that were recently adjusted were unused plural forms (that should probably be deleted) but few like [[Crown]] needed that for backward compatibility. Removing the [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&type=revision&diff=279966&oldid=219482 cv part] means the the link on [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is now broken. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 22:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::If [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is about v0.31, it should not be using "main:" in its links - ''all'' of those links are going to pages about v50, not v0.31, regardless of whether the target is a redirect or not. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:37, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: You right, I removed it. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 17:55, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Crown cv redir issue is now fixed, I believe. As goes with such cases where one can simply revert the troublesome edit, unless I've mistepped, myself? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 23:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:Both [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=280026] and [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=279966] should not have had any effect, because "cv" is an alias to the main namespace now, just like "main". Proof: [[Crown]], [[cv:Crown]], [[main:Crown]]. It's possible caching is coming into play here, although I purged the redirect cache after making that alias change earlier this month... —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:02, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

I think there have been some changes not captured, but as a newb, I'm afraid to edit the page(s). A good example is Strawberry. I'm playing the Steam version right now and Strawberry plants are "not relevant to brewing" in Labor > kitchen > veg / fruit / leaves. Unless I'm mistaken and need to process them? Another example is the trade caravan = it seems the 3 square pathing no longer happens; it's just yak(s). 12:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC) 12:29, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
:Strawberries should be brewable according to the Raws.
:Trade wagons has been modified in v50. The first wagons will arrive at the same time your fort is becoming a barony. Until then, it's only pack animals and stairs are indeed fine. The [[Trading]] page needs a huge rework anyway... I'll try to do that next week. --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

<s>As far as I can tell, none of the workshop buildings in v50 have blocking tiles any more. There's a comment to the like in data/vanilla/vanilla_buildings/objects/building_custom.txt that says this "[BLOCK:1:0:0:0] workbenches no longer block". Hesitant to update that template as I'm not sure if it's referenced for all of the old versions too. </s> [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 05:54, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
: A new template has been created: {{tl|V50 workshop}} --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::Thanks! In general, I would like to delegate the switching responsibility to the template (like how {{tl|creaturelookup/0}} works), but in cases where the parameters diverge significantly like with workshops, it could make sense to make an entirely new template. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

=== creature infobox prototype (moved) ===

Check it out, I made a temporary template and added it to the [[cow]]s page. Now it shows the sprites (but not the zombified versions yet). I wanted to show everyone a prototype of what v50 creature infoboxes should look like. Or at least something similar to it. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:11, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
:Hi, I'm new to editing wikis but I have done a bit of work with sprite sheets and I've been going through the DF data files to find the different graphics hoping to help with the animal pages. I've thrown together a template with grass and a few nature sprites (plants, a tree, and a rock) for size reference but I'm unsure how large the 'display' tiles in the middle of the template should be to suit all animals. I can see in the sprite sheets that some land animals have an adult and child sprite, so two tiles. Others have a male, female, and child, but after seeing you include the zombie cows I'm unsure if I should make it twice the size to add them too. Alternatively, I could grab some tiles from the haunted biomes for the zombie animals and make a separate template for a side-by-side comparison. Either way, let me know if this helps. I'd like to help with other graphics too as we add the premium tilesets but the animals seemed the easiest to tackle with me being new to wiki editing. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::@Zippy, I am a bit perplexed about the purple cows. Why do we need a zombified version of creatures on every page?
::@UristTheSeventh, we can use all the help. Maybe post an example, so that we can have something to compare and contrast.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::@Jan Here are the examples:
:::[[File:Creature template.png]] [[File:Armadillo.png]] [[File:Seagull.png]]
:::It'll need to be wider or arranged differently for different creatures with more that two sprites or for multi-tile creatures. I can also do an aquatic and air themed template for swimming and flying creatures. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::::Looks nice, like the metal template. There are several people working on updating the graphics you should talk more among yourselves. Best I can offer is that I width wise I am hoping to go up to 200px for infoboxes.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 01:13, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:::: We don't exactly ''need'' a zombie sprite on each page. I added it because it was... there. I was also hoping to get some opinions on it anyway since that infobox is a visual prototype, and not a final choice. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:28, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

===Furniture Infobox===
{{Quality|Unrated}}
{{v50_furniture|name=Bed
|graphic=[[File:bed_sprite_prototype.png]]
|tile=Θ|col=6:0:0
|wood=y
|rooms=
* [[Bedroom]]
* [[Barracks]]
* [[Dormitory]]
|value=10}}
I made a v50 furniture template prototype. I tested this on Firefox, Chrome and Microsoft Edge/Internet Explorer and it looks fine on all of them. I hope this is good enough to be the official thing, unless I'm missing something. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:28, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
{{clear}}

=== When do we remove the migration note on specific pages? ===

At what point can we remove the "this page was auto migrated from v47" warning? There are a bunch of small pages that are more or less accurate, if I've reviewed them, can I go ahead and remove the warning? [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Yes, feel free to remove it if you think all content is accurate. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Any info on fixing "creature description not found?" ===

I see this issue on most creature pages, it seems to be due to a lookup that's not currently functioning? Cows interestingly doesn't have this issue but I couldn't figure out how to recreate whatever fix it's editor did. --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 00:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:That is the missing raws issue described above. Cow was fixed by the addition of [[cow/raw]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:28, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::Ah makes sense, not fully used to the language of wikis yet so I read over it while looking. To put this bit of questioning to rest for any future readers, is it correct that it's fine to update any raws manually, though it will be done automatically at some point? --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 07:48, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Yes. I'm circling back to work on a script right now, so not much point in doing it if you're reading this. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::This should be fixed now. If you continue to see pages with problems, you can try [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Purge purging the cache]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:59, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Adventurer Mode related sections ===

The topic has already been discussed [[#Removed features & concepts|above]], but I don't see a clear line on what to do with article sections that mention Adventurer Mode. Like for example in [[Butcher#Adventurer_mode|Butcher]].

'''a) Truncate''' or '''b) leave in place with a mention''' that the mode is not yet present IG but will be added in a future update?

Personally I think option b) is better, because I think it's silly to undo some work just to reintroduce it a few weeks later, with the necessary corrections. Even if a copy/paste of a previous version takes ~15 seconds, considering the number of articles that need to be corrected, it would be a bit of a waste of time.--[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

== Toggleable image ==

Any objections/comments to using this template for now for toggling between classic and premium images? I'd probably rename it to "Template:Premium-classic thumb image". I'm sure someone can come up with a better UI eventually, but should be easy to migrate at that point. I also think we should use the same customtoggle class for this and for the infobox. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 23:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png
}}

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png|
caption=My caption|
width=100px
}}

:This looks nice to me! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

: Good initiative. From the top of my head:
:* I suggest using a shorthand, no one wants to type 'Premium-classic thumb image'.
:* If we end up using toggle for infoboxes (not sure where we headed there), then I agree definitely same custom toggle class should be used for all, thus allowing to switch premium-classic view on the whole page at a click.
:* The button part on a separate row isn't pretty, creating a lot of dead space that can be used by the text. Are we set on the label 'toggle ascii'? Classic isn't Ascii per se, maybe we can use a 'toggle' with a tooltip {{tooltip|for example|does bla bla bla}}, or maybe we can get rid of the text and have a smaller icon button ([[User:Jan/sandbox#Metal_example|two examples]]).
: I hope that helps. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

:: I added [[Template:Dual image]] with some of your suggestions. Agree that it's not super pretty, feel free to try something different.

::* I put the toggle in the caption mostly because I gave up on trying to make a more sophisticated replacement for the default thumb image behavior, I'm sure someone with better wiki-fu could put together something more intelligent.
::* I cut the text down to just "Toggle"; I think the best solution would be a small graphic showing the old and new dwarf icons with arrows between them. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 19:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

{{Dual image|
premium=File:DFwiki5by53by3farm.png|
classic=File:Quickstart_layout_3.png|
width=100px|
caption=A 5x5 room with a 3x3 farm plot
}}
::: I updated the layout, now it should look just like a regular image thumb. I didn't had time to test it, if it doesn't work for you or you don't like it just revert the last change. cheers. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::::I don't know which part of this talk page to put this, but I added the ability to add icons to the v50 workshops template. Leaving the icon part blank will not break the template in any way. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 09:47, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
{{clear}}
==Creature List Now Supports Graphics!==
I wasn't easy, but I made new templates so the [[Creature]]s page now supports both graphics sprites ''and'' ASCII tiles. Allow me to show you:

{{v50_creaturecurrent_table_head}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:dwarf_sprite.png]]|name=[[Dwarf]]|symbol=☺|color=3:0:0|playable=Fort, Adv|hostile=No|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Mountain halls]], [[Fortress|dwarf fortress]]es, [[hillock]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:elf_sprite.png]]|name=[[Elf]]|symbol=e|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Forest retreat]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:human_sprite.png]]|name=[[Human]]|symbol=U|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=70,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Town]]s and cities|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:goblin_sprite.png]]|name=[[Goblin]]|symbol=g|color=7:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Dark fortress]]es and [[dark pit]]s|note=Snatchers2}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:kobold_sprite.png]]|name=[[Kobold]]|symbol=k|color=6:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=20,000|value=Not tameable|biome=Caves|note=Skulking race}}
|}

Oh wait, there's a bonus. You can also modify the background color of the box the sprites go in. I added that to make possibly-hard-to-see-otherwise sprites more easy to see - depending on the colors it has. Allow me to demonstrate.

{{v50_creaturecurrent_table_head}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:dwarf_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#829ccc|name=[[Dwarf]]|symbol=☺|color=3:0:0|playable=Fort, Adv|hostile=No|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Mountain halls]], [[Fortress|dwarf fortress]]es, [[hillock]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:elf_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#c7dfc0|name=[[Elf]]|symbol=e|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Forest retreat]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:human_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#c7dfc0|name=[[Human]]|symbol=U|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=70,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Town]]s and cities|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:goblin_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#dfc0c0|name=[[Goblin]]|symbol=g|color=7:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Dark fortress]]es and [[dark pit]]s|note=Snatchers2}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:kobold_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#dfc0c0|name=[[Kobold]]|symbol=k|color=6:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=20,000|value=Not tameable|biome=Caves|note=Skulking race}}
|}

To change the background color, add <code><nowiki>|bgcolor=COLOR</nowiki></code> segment after the <code><nowiki>|graphic</nowiki></code> part. You can use color names or HTML hex color codes. I added this to the v50 creatures page, but at this time, I only added the first five creatures I just displayed. It's gonna take a while to find ALL of those creature sprites. I hope a lot of people help out on that one. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 05:29, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

:Thanks, looks nice! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:44, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:Nice stuff, took the quick liberty to change the padding-left -> text-align to make all the sprites center aligned relative to each other :) Sweet work --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:41, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Good work indeed. One minor issue, is that all the sprites have different sizes, which sometimes create slight variation in table row height. Consider using capping the image size vertically for example <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px]]</nowiki></code>--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:15, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Also often in such tables people want to click on the image to go for the specific entry, and often will try to click on the very first thing they see in line the thumb image, but currently that will take them to the file page. Consider adding link parameter for example: <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=dwarf]]</nowiki></code> [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=dwarf]] or no link at all <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=]]</nowiki></code> [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=]] --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:24, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
::: I mean... Yeah, I could do that. I think that lessens the quality of the sprite a bit because it makes edges blurry, but either way is fine. I could have sworn I added a link for all those images the first time. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:23, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::::Since we are adding pixel art sprites to the website it might be convincing to add a global class like .sprite or .pixel-image that uses the CSS attribute `image-rendering: pixelated;` in order to prevent blurryness when scaling the image up/down. Just a thought --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 09:40, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::Are we able to attach classes directly to images? If so, we can probably attach inline styles directly as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:52, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::Looks like (without an extension) MediaWiki only supports classes on images: [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|class=pixelated]] and not styles: [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|style="image-rendering: pixelated;"]] it just treats it as alt text it looks like? Wrapping it in a div works and demonstrates the difference: <div style="image-rendering: pixelated;display:inline;">[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|64px]]</div> [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|64px|inline]]. Speaking from experience, however, image-rendering needs a browser specific prefix in certain browsers (safari, for example) in order to work properly. I'm not entirely sure what the best "MediaWiki" practice is for adding something like this but I would assume it's a simple class in common.css for now. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:17, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Main Page

2023-01-06T15:47:41Z

Vallode: /* New main page gallery images */ new section

Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions

2023-01-06T09:40:26Z

Vallode:

{{archive|
# [[DF Talk:Versions/Archive 1|Page 1]]}}

== Version 0.31.19 starts a new DF generation? ==

My reading of Toady's comments on the release of 0.31.19 is that it came out basically because he felt it would take too long to get DF all the way to 0.32. With the ore changes, the sitefinder changes, the addition of grazing and several different industries, there's a lot of changes between 31.18 and 31.19. So I'm thinking it might be a good idea to call it the first release of DF2011 - and what we refer to as "DF2010" would then become 0.31.18.

Thoughts? --[[User:DeMatt|DeMatt]] 07:06, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

==Revisiting Redirects==
I wasn't around when the redirect policy was created, and I'm having trouble understanding the rationale. The example claims that linking [[Main:Cheese]] to [[cv:Cheese maker]] is problematic...but mainspace only ever redirects to the current version. If the best target in the current version is cheese maker, why not link to it directly? (It's not, at least for Cheese, since [[DF2012:Cheese]] exists now.) The explanation seems to be claiming that 40d articles that link to Cheese will follow the Mainspace link--but that hasn't been the case for a long while now. Articles in 40d automatically link against other articles in 40d, so that version remains internally consistent no matter where mainspace links to in the current version. For a current example, what do we gain by linking [[Main:Mead]] to [[cv:Mead]] and linking [[DF2012:Mead]] to [[DF2012:Alcohol]]?

If this really is just an outdated procedure, I recommend we drop the mummery and allow mainspace to link to cv:(best target). Double redirects ''may'' work (sometimes, but [[Main:Mead]] demonstrates a common problem where automatic redirection fails), but if they are unnecessary I think they should be avoided, partly because of problems like [[Main:Mead]] and partly because of the effort required to protect double redirects from users who believe they are problematic.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:16, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

:I was just thinking that. I'm currently attempting to write a basic extension to eliminate the need for mainspace redirects entirely, although Mediawiki's class structure may make this more difficult than I had hoped (the only method I've found for resolving redirects takes the ''article text'' instead of a title, e.g. "#REDIRECT ..."). I do agree that the current situation with redirects isn't ideal, so I'm hoping this will work better (once I get it to work). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:42, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Okay, that wasn't quite as clear as I meant it to be. In general, I think this is a tricky situation. Mediawiki wasn't designed to have five content namespaces, and certainly not chains of redirects between them. The problem that was pointed out in the [[DF:REDIR|policy]] is the fact that with:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
pages in the cv: namespace can't use [[<nowiki/>foo]], since the namespace links modification causes it to be treated as [[<nowiki/>cv:foo]] instead, which doesn't exist. The current suggested solution is this:
Main:Foo -> cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
This fixes the problem of [[<nowiki/>foo]] not working on cv pages, but creates issues with double redirects not always working. Another solution, which is more intuitive to new editors, is:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
Both require creating two redirects. The first method has the advantage of ''ensuring'' that the cv redirect exists (otherwise, main:foo would be a redlink), while the second has the advantage of working more reliably in a couple cases.

What I'm trying to do is make main:Foo "jump" to cv:Foo when cv:foo exists, ''even if main:foo doesn't exist'' (basically it would treat all mainspace pages as redirects to cv pages, but only if the cv page exists and not the mainspace page). I had main:Bar jumping to cv:Bar fine, but if cv:Foo redirected to cv:Bar, accessing main:Foo would mysteriously stop at cv:Foo even if I increased the redirect limit. What I'm trying to do now is follow the redirects internally, without relying on Mediawiki to do it automatically - unfortunately, that has proved to be harder than I had hoped (and I sent my web server into an infinite loop while trying). I will try to work on this some more when I get a chance, although I'm not sure when that'll be yet :(. For now, feel free to fix broken double mainspace redirects as necessary, as long as redirects in the DF2012 namespace stay pointing to the right page (and new mainspace redirects get added in the DF2012 namespace too). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

:You're treating cv like a namespace--it's not. It is simply shorthand for "fill in the current version here". [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Briess&diff=182404&oldid=181281 As I discovered a long time ago on a server not far away], linking from Main:Foo to cv:Foo tends to break redirection chains. If, instead of linking to cv:Foo, you link to DF2012:Foo, it might just work. It would, of course, be better if your patch could evaluate cv itself, but even if you have to hardcode the current version it's a single point of maintenance that requires update very infrequently. (For that matter, we could probably dispense with the cv hack entirely and just have a bot update mainspace links from DF2012 to DF201X when we switch to a new version.)--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:05, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
::I know cv isn't a namespace - I was just trying to avoid future confusion when the DF2012 namespace changes. It's interesting that changing "cv" to "DF2012" fixes some broken redirects, although I've found that simply making an edit to a broken redirect can usually fix it as well. I've actually had the most problems with double redirects when the second one (in the DF2012 namespace) doesn't use the DF2012 prefix (e.g. main:Foo containing <nowiki>[[cv:Foo]] and DF2012:Foo containing [[Bar]]</nowiki>). I'd rather keep the cv alias even if it isn't necessary for mainspace redirects when I get the patch to work, since it makes it easier to refer to the current version of the page (for example, several MDF articles contain links to a vanilla page for things that don't change in the mod).
::Also, using aliases like "cv" is supported by Mediawiki; in fact, several WMF wikis use them (for example, "[[wikipedia:WP:Redirects|WP:Redirects]]" on Wikipedia). It's quite likely that Mediawiki isn't processing double redirects using aliases correctly, though, since that's uncommon on most wikis. --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:35, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

In light of the lack of support for the current redirect policy, I propose we replace the current redirect section with:

:Mainspace article pages should use the cv: alias when redirecting to a versioned page, which will automatically update the link when a new version is released. For example, page "Main:Foo" should redirect to page "cv:Bar" (where "Bar" is the page that best describes the topic Foo in the current version).

:Pages in mainspace should only redirect to an older versioned page if that content no longer exists in the current version of the game (e.g. [[Cave river]], [[Chunk]]). In these cases the cv: alias cannot be used.

:Pages inside a versioned namespace should not use the cv: alias. Instead, they should redirect to the best page within that versioned namespace (e.g. [[DF2012:Dodging]], [[v0.31:Drink]]).

:Due to limitations of the wiki software, double redirects should be avoided if possible. When fixing double redirects in mainspace, please make sure to use the cv: alias as appropriate.

If no one objects, I will make this change in a few days.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:21, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

:Okay with me. It may be worth mentioning that double redirects only really need to be changed when they don't work (since changing a lot of redirects that work isn't necessary), but I think it's clearer and more relevant than the current policy. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Done.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:55, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I was finally able to get my extension to work after being motivated by one too many malfunctioning redirects. It now causes nonexistent pages in the main namespace to behave exactly like redirects to their DF2012 counterparts (when linked to, accessed directly, and transcluded). Double redirects also work (up to 100, in fact, although that was a temporary safety measure that I'll probably change). This means we'll be able to safely get rid of all mainspace redirects (redirects that redirect to something other than "cv" will still function if not deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:20, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
:What about articles which don't exist in the current version but do exist in older versions? Will those still need mainspace redirects, or will your extension be able to automatically redirect them to v0.31/40d/23a? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] ([[User talk:Quietust|talk]]) 01:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
::It ignores all mainspace pages that actually have content, including redirects, so pages like [[masons guild]] won't be affected (unless deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:47, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Done and deployed. [[Cat]] is still treated as a redirect, even though I just deleted it (try clicking on the "redirected from" link). Pages that exist are ignored, so [[Masons guild]] and [[History of Dwarf Fortress]] still function normally (as a redirect to a 23a page and a non-redirect, respectively). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm sending around a bot right now to delete all redirects of the format "foo -> cv:foo" (a surprising number don't fit this format, so I'm leaving them alone for now). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:43, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

:I'm confused. Do we use double redirects or not? Is there a single place we define our linking policy (including redirects), and is it updated?
:I had trouble linking to [[Consolidated_development]] in [[v0.34:Dragon]]. It kept pointing to v0.34:Consolidated_development, which does not exist. I ended up linking to Main:Consolidated_development to make it work. --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] ([[User talk:Nahno|talk]]) 10:18, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

::That's a separate problem altogether - links in the versioned namespaces (v0.34, v0.31, 40d, 23a) automatically link to pages within their namespace. I may be able to set up a fallback to mainspace once I'm able to deploy again, but for now the "main:" alias is the intended solution. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 11:36, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

== Google often directs people to the 0.31 page ==

I've noticed a couple of times that finding a wiki page from an external search will often drop me onto a page from an older version. Is it possible to mitigate this somehow for new players? I could imagine something like redirecting old:Bar -> cv:Bar unless the user has come from old:Foo; no idea if that would actually work though. [[User:PeridexisErrant|PeridexisErrant]] ([[User talk:PeridexisErrant|talk]]) 11:48, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

:As a temporary solution, I could write a script that displays a banner of some kind if the user came from an external site. I'll ask Briess if he can do anything on the server level to increase the weighting of the current version's pages. (Obviously there are situations where people are looking for old pages, like [[23a:dungeon master]], so we don't want to disable indexing entirely on old pages.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:03, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

== DF2014? ==

As Toady [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ draws closer to a new release], it might be worthwhile to discuss the addition of a new version to the wiki. The upcoming release covers two years of changes and introduces a number of new plants, foods, drinks, multi-tile trees, climbing, jumping, etc., so it is likely to have significant changes from the current DF2012. To avoid having people start new pages (and lose all the effort spent refining the prior version's page), I think it would be best to have a bot automatically copy over the DF2012 pages as a starting point for DF2014. I would suggest that these copied pages include a noticebox template mentioning that the content may be outdated, so that we can easily track which pages have been reviewed. I think either the {{tl|version check}} or {{tl|old}} template would work. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:43, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

:This is what [[User:QuietBot]] did after the 0.34 release, so it's certainly possible to use the same script to migrate to DF2014. I would like a way of tagging migrated pages, since inaccuracies in some pages went unnoticed for months after they were migrated. Since {{tl|old}} is already in use, {{tl|version check}} may be a better solution (it can be reworded slightly, or we can make a separate template for DF2014 migration). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:23, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
:Made [[Template:DF2014 migrated]] as an example. Any thoughts? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:32, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

== Redirects inconsistency ==

Following a redirect is supposed to be exactly the same as going straight to the page it redirects to, but this actually isn't the case:
* Go to [[Seeds]] and you get [[v0.34:Seed]] (outdated)
* Go to http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Seeds&redirect=no and click on the link and you get to [[DF2014:Seed]] (current)
So if you search for "seed", the top result is the DF2014 version. But search for "seeds" and you get the redirect, which sends you to the outdated page instead. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

While I'm talking about redirects, it seems redirects to sections don't work: see [[DF2014:How do I manage my seeds and crops]]. I know MediaWiki is capable of this trick because Wikipedia does it. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:32, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

:I have absolutely no idea why [[seeds]] redirects to a v0.34 page - it could be a Mediawiki bug. The section links issue is due to a known issue in the redirect extension we use, which has yet to be fixed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:01, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
:It looks like deleting both [[Seeds]] and [[DF2014:Seeds]] fixed things (by allowing AutoRedirect to handle the redirects instead). Feel free to tag any others with {{tl|bad redirect}}. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::It gets stranger. [[Vial]] redirects explicitly to [[cv:Flask]] which displays (when you look at it with &redirect=no) as [[DF2014:Flask]], but still goes to the v0.34 version. It seems redirects interpret the cv: pseudo-namespace (or whatever it's called) in an outdated way. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 18:08, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::I've added a note to this page about this issue. If it gets resolved, the note should be removed. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 21:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

==Reorganizing versions==

The internet deals with moved content... poorly. Google is still linking to v0.34 pages more than a year after the switch to "DF2014", and even the wiki software still has cached links pointing to the old version pages.

I propose reorganizing versions on the wiki to avoid moving content whenever possible. Instead of having a temporary "current version" namespace that changes occasionally, all the current information gets promoted to the Main namespace. When the next version split occurs, the Main articles as of a certain revision number can be copied to the newly-created permanent "old version" namespace, while all the current information remains in Main. This not only fixes the link rot issue, but it has a few other benefits as well: fewer administrative tasks, no lockdown (a historical version of the Main pages can be copied at any point, even if the Main articles are already modified for the new version), almost all the article history is maintained in the Main article (instead of being spread unevenly across multiple versions), no "temporary" namespaces are needed, fewer problematic long redirect chains, and hopefully less user confusion (since Main gets priority in search results, etc.).

As an example, today we would not have a DF2014 namespace (which is good because "temporary" namespaces historically disappear anyway). If you ran a search for [[seed]] you'd end up at Main:seed, which would have all the current information on seeds. The version box at the top of the page would still link to the older versions of the seed article. When a new version is released, an admin would choose a revision number and copy the Main:seed article as it exists at that revision number to v0.40:seed. That's it. One historical copy that needs little to no new editing, and zero redirections/moves.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:02, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

:Makes sense to me. It would involve a lot of work, though (e.g. fixing templates and categories to account for the current version being in mainspace), although that should be doable thanks to {{tl|category}}, {{tl|version switch}}, etc.. A bot could be set up to copy revisions from before a release date as well, which would be more difficult (and maybe slower) than a direct copy, but not severely. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:24, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

:Actually, there are a few issues with that, namely that there wouldn't be an easy way to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned mainspace pages. There are ways to resolve Google search priority (we can exclude pages from older versions from search engine results if there are newer versions of those pages available, for example). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:47, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::There aren't very many non-versioned mainspace pages, and determining if a page is versioned is as simple as looking for the version template and/or categories added by the version template (e.g. copy [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Category:Current this category] instead of Main:*). The problem with "suggesting" newer pages to Google is that they obviously aren't crawling our wiki regularly (if they were, the fact that the mainspace redirects point to new pages would automatically be picked up). Even if your Google hints worked they wouldn't do anything for all the other broken links out on the 'net.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:35, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: Google actually crawls the wiki constantly - we probably get crawl hits from google for a continuous block of 2-3 hours per day, each and every day. Why they are slow to update is beyond me though. I can't remember why we didn't do this initially, but there was a technical limitation involved if I remember correctly. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] ([[User talk:Briess|talk]]) 22:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: There are <meta> tags that can be used to hide pages from search results (for search engines that recognize them, that is). Searching for {{tl|av}} or [[:Category:Current]] might work, although we'd have to make sure all of the DF2014 pages include that (some pages don't, particularly some disambiguation pages, although all of them should). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:53, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

:Is there a particular reason main and current are separate to begin with?—[[User:CLA|CLA]] ([[User talk:CLA|talk]]) 00:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

::It's mostly intended to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned pages and make version-related templates simpler to work with, since every versioned page has a namespace. I wasn't active here in 2010 when this system was created, so Briess and Emi would know more.
::Another issue I just thought of with Loci's suggestion is categories - currently, categories like [[:Category:Animals]] are used to organize the versioned sub-categories. Sure, we can change {{tl|Category}} to categorize mainspace pages in [[:Category:v0.40:Animals]] or [[:Category:DF2014:Animals]], but that would be less straightforward because there wouldn't be a namespace with that name (until pages are migrated when a newer major version is released). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

:Moving current pages to the main namespace sounds like a great idea. -[[User:Jecowa|Jecowa]] ([[User talk:Jecowa|talk]]) 20:47, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Another thought: dealing with migrating redirects could be difficult with this proposal - specifically, determining which redirects should be migrated to a versioned namespace. Redirects can't contain {{tl|av}}, at least not before ``#REDIRECT``. I ''think'' it would be possible to copy pages in two stages, though - all non-redirects first, then all redirects whose targets were also copied. Thoughts? Anything I'm missing? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:41, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Some subpages (particularly /raw and /Edit notice) also deliberately lack {{tl|av}}, although those shouldn't be too hard to handle. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

:Redirect pages (and all other edge cases I've looked at) can be included in categories (like [[:Category:Current]]) to determine whether or not they should be copied into an archival version. But if the redirects are "properly qualified" then they can all be copied over blindly. Mainspace redirects pointing to versioned information should use a blank namespace (which will be automatically constrained to the archival namespace); mainspace redirects pointing to unversioned information should use an explicit "Main" (which will automatically link back to the unversioned page). Then, when [[[[Toady]]]] gets copied to [[[[v0.4x:Toady]]]] it will point back to [[[[Main:Toady One]]]]. Meanwhile, [[[[Beer]]]], copied to [[[[v0.4x:Beer]]]], will properly point to [[[[v0.4x:Alcohol]]]].--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:00, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

::I think qualifying redirects is the best solution here - categorizing redirects manually is another possible source of errors, since categories (or a lack thereof) would only be visible on the redirect page itself, and [[:Category:Current]] is a hidden category. Copying over mainspace redirects into versioned namespaces would also resolve some issues that have come up due to those not reliably existing currently. I should be able to set up a bot script to add "main:" to current mainspace redirects (and it shouldn't break anything, since those redirects go to other mainspace pages anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:57, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

(Note: I wrote all of this without noticing the previous discussion above.) I was wondering, when the wiki creates a new namespace for a major release again, if it is possible to ''not'' create a namespace for the next current version (e.g. "DF202x") and instead have the mainspace articles (which are currently redirects) become the new cv and move the content there. Therefore, [[cv:Cat]] would just be "[[Cat]]" (or [[Main:Cat]]).

Certain namespace-related templates like [[Template:Ns/0]] would need to be changed, though nothing significant as far as I know. For most cases, any "DF2014" would be replaced with "Main" or even blank. There's also multiple extensions handling the current namespace system and they may need to be modified too, though I'm not sure if or how much. I'm guessing based on the discussions above that it will change stuff up.

My reason is the current namespace is increasingly becoming more anachronistic. "DF2014" could be misinterpreted as "this page is about the 2014 version of the game" or "this page was last updated in 2014", which I've seen a few people in forums mention. Granted that [[Template:Av]] is on the top of very article, I still think the namespace is inconsistent with the recentness of the article. But how is this related to what I'm asking for? Let's say we continue the current system: if we happen to do a new namespace change this year and create DF2020, the next major release (after graphics/UI) will be mythgen, which is estimated to take several years to develop (the Big Wait), and so the anachronism will start over again. The proposed way will prevent this from occurring for the next major release and every release thereafter.

I think the confusion with having a namespace that becomes old-fashioned overtime supersedes the confusion with not marking current versioned articles with a namespace. Most users just search "Cat" on the search bar and naturally expect to get information about the latest release of DF. So if users go a page that's just titled "Cat", they won't expect outdated info about cats from a previous release. That's how the current system works anyways. We'll be skipping the two-step process that we have now. It'll make several wiki tasks much simpler as well. Editors can create new articles for current versions without remembering to add a namespace. It'll fix any existing issues with (double) redirects; instead of [[Main:Kitten]] redirecting to [[cv:Kitten]], which goes to [[DF2014:Kitten]], which then redirects to [[DF2014:Cat]], [[Main:Kitten]] would just redirect to [[Main:Cat]]. And the cv: alias will no longer be necessary since "cv:" = "Main:" and will be forever.

There's no need to differentiate the current version and previous versions with a namespace for the current version is what I'm saying. Articles of previous versions will retain their respective namespaces. Users will still type "40d:Cat" to go to the 40d version of the article, but if they want the current version, they'll just type "Cat" (like now). The mainspace containing the "live" version of an article is natural and would create no uncertainty when browsing the wiki. And it would simplify the wiki somewhat and future-proof this anachronism problem. As a bonus, this change will also prevent web search engines from showing previous version pages when typing "DF cat" or something. (This isn't happening right now as DF2014 has been the current namespace for ~6 years, but it'll happen again when everything moves to a new namespace.)

This is the gist of it, and I may have ignored most of the problems with this proposal. I have personally wished for the whole version namespacing be made less complicated and have been seeking for a solution, and I feel like this is the best way to go about in the future. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:27, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:<s>Whoops, looks like Loci already proposed this exact thing long ago. I definitely missed that discussion and should have checked first. My apologies. I'll move my text to that section and remove this one. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:36, 14 August 2020 (UTC)</s> Done. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:40, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:The main issue I have with that is that putting pages about the current version in a namespace also differentiates between those pages and pages not about ''any'' version (for example, [[Toady One]] does not need a 40d or v0.34 page). Yes, we can use {{tl|av}} to mark versioned pages, but people often forget to add that to new pages. The current system also allows determining whether a page is versioned or not from its title, which makes migrations a lot faster. Relying on {{tl|av}} would require either reading the content of every page (which would slow scripts down significantly) or cross-checking with the list of all pages including the template (feasible, but a bit more complicated, and still susceptible to missing templates). I suppose that manually fixing and migrating pages missing {{tl|av}} later wouldn't be too much work, though.
:I am definitely in favor of changing "DF2014" (or a new namespace) to "Current", though. I was in favor of "DF2014" in 2014, but I don't think it makes sense anymore, and "Current" seemed to be a popular alternative in both the DF2012 and DF2014 discussions on the matter. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

== Weird redirect behaviour ==

[[Pump stack]] redirects to [[cv:Screw pump#Pump stack]]. If you look at the redirect itself it says it redirects to DF2014 namespace, which is correct. But if you actually follow the redirect, it goes to v0.34 namespace. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 16:10, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
:Yeah, that's part of the issue described in the above section (the wiki caching part, not on Google's end.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:00, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

== v50 organization ==

Some wiki admins have had a talk on Discord and decided that the most sustainable path forward is to put content for all future versions of DF in the main namespace. We will be working on a bot to do this in the next few days. Feel free to chime in with suggestions here. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

:Is it maybe possible to do backwards-namespacing? Like we have a "Main" namespace, which people are free to update, and whenever there's a new version of DF the "Main" namespace is copied into a namespace for the then old version, much like how you'd branch a stable branch from a development branch when working with a git-project? [[User:Therahedwig|Therahedwig]] ([[User talk:Therahedwig|talk]]) 23:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

::Yeah, we could do that if we decide to. We were talking about doing that for v50, actually, and might still do something similar to preserve edit history if it doesn't end up being too hard to automate. Our hope is that we will not introduce new namespaces for v50 -> v5x, unless there is a serious breaking change (and hopefully there isn't one). But if we change our mind, one advantage of the type of migration you mentioned is that it can be done retroactively - we can copy historical revisions that were current at the time of the release, and would only lose some typo fixes made after the release that apply to earlier versions as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:11, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

ETA is < 24 hours. Doing some final checks on a migration script. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 07:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

: We should really have a task list as there are many things that change and need updating. Including but not limited to:
:* Most templates that used the previous namespace convention broke, including nav templates.
:* Many game files changed locations and their pages need to be updated.
:* Raws need to be updated.
:* Various features added, changed, removed.
:* UI has been changed -- though I am more inclined to wait for classic release to avoid extra work --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

"''Raws need to be updated.''" Including applying text wraparound where necessary, I suppose - more than a few of them have proven to be that special kind of...''difficult'' to navigate otherwise, shall we say? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 12:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:There is already a task list in the [[#v50 migration|section below]] that includes templates and raws, with an explanation. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

== v50 migration ==

The initial migration script is done. New content is in the '''main''' namespace, e.g. [[Cat]]. Old content is still at [[DF2014:Cat]]. History was migrated to the ''new'' (main namespace) articles.

I know several things are broken still. Please reply if you find any others:
<div style="border-left: 2px solid red">
* <s>Versioned templates haven't been migrated yet (e.g. {{tl|vermin}} on [[Ant]])</s>
** Fixed. Most were migrated by a bot.
* <s>Raws are missing on all pages that use them.</s>
** This also affects sidebars, such as on [[Cat]] and [[Microcline]].
** Update: The DFRawFunctions extension has been upgraded to include v50 raws, using the "v50:" prefix for filenames instead of "DF2014:". <s>I haven't finished a migration script to create the /raw pages themselves, but they can typically be created manually by copying the DF2014 /raw pages and changing "DF2014" to "v50" everywhere.</s> —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
** Update 2: Raws have been added for all pages! They were copied from the "DF2014" pages and had "DF2014" replaced with "v50", which appears to have worked from a spot-check, but let me know if you find any problems. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
* Some pages where the DF2014 page was a redirect to a main namespace page that contained content were migrated incorrectly.
** In this case, the main namespace page is usually a redirect to itself. This can be fixed by undoing LethosorBot's edit to the main namespace page, then copying the content to the DF2014 page.
** Update: most seem to have been fixed manually - thanks! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* <s>Some main-namespace talk pages redirect to DF2014 talk pages. Some of these redirects work, and some (usually older ones) do not.</s>
** Fixed with a bot. Some redirects from talk pages to other deleted talk pages are now broken, e.g. [[Talk:Above_ground]] (exists) -> [[Talk:Tile attributes]] (redlink). I am leaving them like that because they redirect to where the talk page should be created, but I'm also fine with people deleting them if they really want to. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* {{tl|quality}} for new articles is disabled (see below)
* Some links from DF2014 to Main weren't working: e.g. the version selector [[DF2014:Mason's workshop]] was linking to [[DF2014:Main:Mason's workshop]] instead of [[Main:Mason's workshop]]. I'm not sure exactly why, but I fixed it with a change to the NamespaceLinks extension. Let me know if you spot similar broken links. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:19, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
</div>

—[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:54, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:The quality levels of the 50.03 pages seem to be missing. I'm not sure if that's covered under that first point. [[User:Trainzack|Trainzack]] ([[User talk:Trainzack|talk]]) 06:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::If the the [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Quality]] feature can be made to work with namespace scheme change, I suggest to automatically assign the lowest quality rating to all pages, alternately add the {{tl|old}} to all pages. Otherwise there will be a lot of pages that will fall through the cracks. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::I disabled {{tl|quality}} in the main namespace because it would require some rework to make the rating script and the template work properly there. Feel free to take a stab at the template. I will see what can be done on the extension side. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::What needs to be done on the template side? I'm not sure I see too big of an issue leaving pages as "unknown-quality" for now (or just change the default to tattered) until we get the rating script working. Is that script up anywhere, anything that could be helped with? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:10, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::They're already marked as unknown. Really the only issue I know of with the template is that it doesn't show up with some of the newer skins we added, and that can be fixed by getting rid of the absolute positioning. As for the script, it can be found at https://github.com/DF-Wiki/QualityRatings, and the issue is really only with the configuration system not recognizing the main namespace as valid. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:29, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::Great, I started having a crack at fixing the template with different themes. Is the preference to get some CSS going and then include it in the global stylesheet (i.e different styles per theme) or to try and get a "one size fits all" fix? —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 08:14, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I would rather avoid custom site-wide CSS if we can. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I appreciate that, I think it's the simplest solution to add a few lines to common.css though. Unless there is a way to attach CSS specifically to a template, I saw a few extensions that allowed that but I'm not sure if any are present in the wiki at the moment. Regardless there already exists a class `div.topicon` that is specifically for the quality ratings, is there an issue with expanding this class to accommodate the themes? The list of themes where the quality rating display is broken/invisible: Citizen, MinervaNeue, MonoBook. —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 21:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::What do you think of moving the template out of the topicon entirely and just placing it in a div? It would take up a (hopefully) small amount of vertical space in the article. [[User:Lethosor/Sandbox/Quality_test]] is an example. Unfortunately it isn't possible to prevent other templates from displaying above the quality this way ([https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User:Lethosor/Sandbox/Quality_test&oldid=283883]). So maybe we do need some custom CSS after all if we want that. I'm open to trying out whatever you propose. I'm a bit worried about future-proofing against skins we add later (particularly a mobile skin) but at least MediaWiki supports skin-specific global CSS as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:33, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::I would rather we avoid taking any more vertical space in the article. The growing block pyramid at the top, starting with version template, is annoying. If you end up placing it inside the article space please use a slim box 100% wide that would include both.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 01:19, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::Agreed with you Jan, however I see that as two different tasks (ArticleVersion template changes, getting quality back on pages). I made a test adjustment to the quality and it takes up a negligable amount of extra space. See [[User:Vallode/sandbox#Page_quality]] for the example, we'd be able to completely remove "topicon" (unless it is used somewhere else?) and then potentially move on to making the ArticleVersion template into a slim version on the left-hand-side instead of a large box? Let me know what you think. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:35, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

It appears some pages are redirecting recursively and never resolving correctly, like the [[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Character_table&redirect=no|character table]] and [[tileset repository]] 07:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
: Indeed, these can be caught here: [[Special:DoubleRedirects]] --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

It might be useful to change the notice title to "release information '''for editors'''" --[[Special:Contributions/142.59.195.176|142.59.195.176]] 10:26, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Can do. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::New here, hello. Should we set a date where we remove/only show the banner for logged in users. There are (some) pages that have 4 different notices about the upgrade. [[Engraving]] is one such page, the top banner states "information for editors", we then have the "this page was migrated" banner, a version selection which warns the article might be inaccurate, and a smaller banner saying the page might need to be updated. Quite a lot of screen space, I think we can start to slowly reduce the amount of warnings this coming month? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 10:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Unfortunately, only showing info to logged-in users is difficult with how MediaWiki caching works. In terms of reducing warnings, there is a discussion [[Template_talk:ArticleVersion#.22Note_that_some_content_may_still_need_to_be_updated..22|here]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:43, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::As for [[Engraving]] specifically, the {{tl|old}} banner was actually present on [[DF2014:Engraving]] as well and got carried over with the migration. I removed it, and agree that it was redundant. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:46, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Main talkpages seem to redirect to DF2014 talk. Not sure if it is intentional but I like it, though we should pay attention when creating new discussion relating to v50 ending up there.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 14:18, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:That's unintentional. I specifically wrote the migration script to not move talk pages, but that has the side-effect of leaving any previously-created "Talk -> DF2014 talk" redirects intact. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Yo Lethosor, are we adding graphic sprites for the pages in some way? Or are we waiting for you to add some sort of new template or something? I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that the current templates don't allow that. Not sure if I'm allowed to change/create any templates either, as I don't want to break things for hundreds of pages. Edit: And IF the icons are allowed, should they be left alone, or 2×-3× sized like how the Minecraft wiki does it? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 14:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Depends on which templates you mean. There are copyright concerns with uploading a premium sprite sheet, for instance. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm not talking about uploading an entire sprite sheet. I'm just talking about individual icons for each respective page. One image for cows, one for horses, one for werebeasts, etc. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 16:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::If we do that for every creature in the sprite sheet, that's not much different (in terms of copyright) from uploading the entire sprite sheet. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:09, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::Is there someone we can talk to about that? We finally get this new game with graphics, and then we can't use the very graphics of the game? No matter what the rules are, I'd say that would be the stupidest thing ever. I know I'm infamous here when it comes to copyright and images and stuff, but about 80% of game wikis out there are completely unofficial, and use game file images like no one's business. I can't imagine anyone's door being knocked on if we used the game's sprites, but I won't add any here until we have a go-ahead. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 17:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::...I've made noise in Mayday's direction on this matter, at least (prob an incorrect maneuver, ''but'').[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 17:55, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: I hope some sort of arrangement can be made so we can use the new sprites with permission/limits, just as we are using the raw files. Otherwise we are all (devs and editors alike) shooting ourselves in the foot here.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::I just thought of something. We're supposedly not allowed to upload entire sprite sheets, right? What if - for the time being - we just use a few of them for the purpose of testing out new infoboxes? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 21:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::I don't know. If someone could ask Kitfox and post the response here, that would be great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::::I've reached out to Alexandra, but she hasn't answered yet. Until then I found these old approvals from the previous community manager, Feeona: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8243633#msg8243633 link1], [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=176640.msg8243642#msg8243642 link2]). Waiting for a newer response until we begin mass uploads is probably the politer option, but like Zippy said, it is also standard for wikis to use game sprites with less approval. I second their idea of trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. On the extreme off-chance (and I do think it is) Kitfox protests we can always remove these few. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:19, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::And here is a third, more official statement: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8249718#msg8249718 link3]). Perhaps that address of info@kitfoxgames.com is the better channel to ask for a confirmation, rather than Discord DMs, but I will be going to bed, so it is best if someone else does that. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::Thanks for tracking this down! Ok, sprites should be fine, but let's avoid uploading the entire premium tileset as a single image, for instance (as the forum thread says, "use common sense"). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::: Looks good, permission is always preferable over fairuse, I think it is a win win for all involved. I agree that we shouldn't upload entire sprite sheets (e.g. there is no reason to upload the windmill from every direction or whole construction phase for workshops) and that there are a lot of details that needs to be ironed out through testing. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 05:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::We have a green light on uploading all and any sprites. Their response to me can be seen [https://i.imgur.com/BhmHjzC.png here]. I'm sure someone else confirmed it before me. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:00, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Shifting temporarily to a new issue, is the documentation of [[Template:ArticleVersion]] outdated? It would seem so to me, since the current version no longer has its own namespace, with the templates needing updating being different ones. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 18:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:I think it is still accurate enough. We left open the possibility of making another namespace in the future, albeit with a different migration strategy - see [[#v50 organization|above]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Some Changes to infoboxes might be needed. Too bad [[User:Doorkeeper]] isn't around. He did a great work with navbox project--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:52, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

I just realized that raw files aren't stored as regular wiki pages but loaded via the DFRawFunctions extension (hence the need to update). Good news it's going to be handled in bulk, consistently and relatively easy to updated. Even better it's Lethosor problem ;) Also I just realized that all the "raw files" (txt files in the new vanilla folder) are released into the public domain. Both are probably not news to the vets but I'll leave it here for those who less up to date like myself. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:35, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: I noticed that some templates aren't working properly in the new namespace, e.g. [[Basalt]] entry had its raw updated manually but the infobox fail to show any details. Cursory look suggest {{t|layerlookup/0}} need a minor tweak. This should do the work
:: Replace: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
:: With___: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{</nowiki>:<nowiki>{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
: Not sure what the plan and ETA with raws update so I didn't touch this high usage template for now. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 08:11, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

::Please do feel free to make this update. I am still working on a script to create the <code>/raw</code> pages themselves. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be an idea to add to the Sitenotice to remove the {{tl|migrated article}} tag when an article has been fully updated? I see many articles that seem to be updated still have the tag. And/or advise to make use of the {{tl|verify}} for sections still in need of checking? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 10:12, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:Probably a good shout. The "see this page" link does include the detail on removing but we should more explicitly encourage removing the banner once a page has at least been looked over. [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:01, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

== v50 specific issues ==
=== Graphics===
Follow up on the use of game sprites and the need to trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. First sprite [[:File:Beds v50.png]] was uploaded and used on [[Bed]] entry. Any thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Seems like it should be rearranged to be horizontal. Also, has there been a serious discussion about copyright? Full screenshots are 100% fine, but you start going into a grey area when you upload pieces of a spritesheet. I'm of the opinion that it's all fine as long as it's inconvenient to reconstruct the full sheet from the individual images. Maybe a further restriction could be you shouldn't upload any of the art unless it's used in an infobox (maybe an exception for pieces of the UI). And one more restriction could be you shouldn't show everything, like in your bed example, maybe just the wooden bed is good enough, leave out the stone and metal, especially since those can only be made from strange moods. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:43, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::Actually, your bed image is kinda bad for showing off what a bed looks like because it doesn't show the pillow/blankets. That might point to cropped screenshots being the best path, although less convenient for the uploader, as you don't get details left out. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:46, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::I created a new license template [[Template:Copyright game]], based it on the way the RimWorld wiki does things. Call it a prototype, but it's probably how your bed image should be labelled. Indeed, I added it to it already. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]])

::: I agree that the horizontal arrangement would suit better here and that we should strive to represent how things look in-game. Otherwise, I am not too concerned about people being able to reconstruct anything (lets just say that ''anyone'' interested in that can get the real thing from the game files), also it seem we have permission to use the sprits on top of fairuse. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 19:55, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

::: Modifying the existing template to allow the inclusion of the new sprites is easy (Something like [https://ibb.co/zFXCrjd this]?) The big question is the matter of consistency is there any exceptions that will break the format (size wise with variant bloat for example), the sprite naming format, etc --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:44, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::: If we are going to show a variant for each material type, then maybe these should be added as separate images so we can add a tooltip for each image. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:49, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

:I've got another prototype going here and here: [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]] and [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox]]. (You'll need to add the css stuff to your own /vector.css). Basically it's a way to recolor images using css classes. No idea if there's a better way. Also, the real implementation would require a change to [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Should mention, there ''is'' a different way, just upload each image 16 times, one for each coloring. But maybe that's not very elegant. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:45, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

: It should be noted that soon the classic edition will be released, hence one should plan to have both the Premium and classic alongside in that little space --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:14, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm looking into a tab extension to potentially support this in infoboxes. Perhaps [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Tabs Extension:Tabs]? I tried [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TabberNeue Extension:TabberNeue], but it displays a placeholder if JavaScript is disabled, which isn't great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: The Neue Tabber seem to works pretty much like the old one (which fandom [https://coding-help.fandom.com/wiki/Tabber#Adding_images_into_tabbers still use]) defaulting to showing the first tab only. Quick look suggest that neue work the same, plus the notice that 'Tabber requires Javascript to function' warning? if so, and if it is a bother, then you should be able to edit out the tabberneue-noscript string in code. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:29, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: I much prefer your tabber solution, but if that fails we can also use the gallery slideshow mode. If so, beware it has no way to control image size so the images have to be maliciously uploaded using the exact same size. example:
<gallery mode="slideshow">
File:SteelSample.png
File:TinSample.png
File:ZincSample.png
File:GoldSample.png
</gallery> --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

==== adding premium set to Infobox ====
I am unclear where are we going with this? 
1) Will (A) tabs be implemented, (B) we be using mediawiki toggle [[Template_talk:V50_workshop|example]] for premium and classic/blocked, (c) put images side by side, or (d) something else? 
2) Also [[silver]] and [[Pig iron]] use very different image style for example. 
3) Anything else you want ? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

: Personally, I would love tabs to be implemented, but I think that side by side might be best for most. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
: Here is rough layout we can use. It should fit most buildings given the default sprite size. There is also a different floor plan for both (inspired by reddit)

{|
|- valign=top
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 5×5
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>
|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|colspan=2|<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">
[[File:Siege workshop.png|center|160px]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab"">
{|
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%; font-size: 125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Siege workshop}}</center>
|style="line-height: 1em; font-size: 125%;"|
{| style="border-spacing:4px;"
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 3×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|colspan=2 style="text-align: right;"|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="float:left; border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%;"|
<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">[[File:Carpenter's workshop.png]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab""><center>
{| style="font-size: 175%; border-spacing: 0; background-color: black; border: 2px solid black"
|- 
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|"|7:0:0}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|{{=}}|6:0:0}}
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|]|0:0:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
|}</center></div>
|
{| style="border-spacing:5px;"
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×1
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:Screw_press.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Screw press}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Screw press}}</center>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:water_wheel.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Water wheel}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;line-height:normal;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Water wheel}}</center>
|}
|}
:Any thoughts on the direction and or any and all of its elements? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:16, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

::I kind of like side-by-side, if it fits. If anyone wants to implement a toggle button or tabs, I would ask that that be implemented in a template for now, so that e.g. we could change a toggle button to tabs in a single place if we decide to install an extension to support that. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

::: I noticed a comment saying that [[impassable tile]] are no longer used in v50, is that true for all constructions? If so, floor plans are no longer needed, making things much easier as we can fit everything in except the 5v5 constructions like trade depot (and even these can be placed one above the other if so desired). If not, any thought on the alternative floor plan design? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

:::: None of the constructions have blocking tiles any more from my experience playing. I haven't tested siege weaponry with that stuff, but none of the workshops have it, nor does any furniture. (walls and fortifications will of course obstruct movement [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 18:47, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
::::: Ok, I have removed them from v50. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I have added a basic side by side variant to [[Template:V50 workshop]] and [[Template:Building]] for testing, let us know if there any issues. Few notes:
* The default image naming scheme of <code>workshop-name.png</code> will likely conflict with existing images here or on commons, maybe another naming scheme should be used like <code>v50 workshop-name.png</code> as it is with ascii pictures.
* There is inconsistency in image size. If you want to use large zoomed images then toggle is best, otherwise they need to be all in native size (96px for 3x3).
* In the current version the code roughly centers the images and if there is a big image like with [[Siege workshop]] it drops to a new line --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

How about combining shortcut keys and the new menu icons:
<div style="color:white; font-size: large; text-shadow: -1px -1px 0 #000, 1px -1px 0 #000, -1px 1px 0 #000, 1px 1px 0 #000;">[[File:Ui b.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">b</div>[[File:Ui bo.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">o</div>[[File:Ui bol.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div>[[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div></div>
--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 02:24, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

:I worry that this is difficult to read (I read it as "boil" at first). I would rather use something like {{tl|k}} with a known background. What about something like this? [[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:0px;">{{k|l}}</div> or, alternatively, using flexbox without any overlap: [[File:Ui boll.png]]{{k|l}} —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:37, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Same, but that is the best I came up with. We can use the key or maybe someone can help improve the design. Also 'l' is hard to read even with {{t|key}}.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:05, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: I added a {{t|Menu icon}} to start things so others can have a go with it. Also any thoughts on the icon naming convention (their shortcut sequence), is there easier/better way? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:36, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::[[User:BarelyCreative]] updated the template: {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y}}. I think it looks good, thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::I like that, yeah. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::There were some places where it didn't make sense so display every icon all the time (like step-by-step guides), so I changed it slightly to allow display of fewer icons using "num" and counting from the end: <nowiki>{{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-;|num=2}}</nowiki> {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-|num=2}} [[User:BarelyCreative|BarelyCreative]] ([[User talk:BarelyCreative|talk]]) 09:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

==== Bizarre palette-swapping idea/prototype ====
No idea if this is a good idea, since it takes a bit of time to set up, and there might be some performance issues... and maybe display issues?

But take a look at this:
{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=amber}}

It's way to swap palettes on an image, although the image itself is a table, with each cell representing a pixel. The template itself looks like this:
<code><nowiki>{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=saffron}}</nowiki></code>
Input the pattern and desired palette name.

I've got a larger showcase here: [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase]]. Only did a rock pattern so far, but all palettes are implemented.
The major use for this would be on each stone, metal, wood, etc. type's page. The palette could be read directly from the raws. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 03:22, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

:From a technical perspective, my primary concern is indeed performance. Both on the server side and client side, a large number of tables that large (in terms of markup and cell count, that is) tend to be resource-intensive to generate and render. I saw your image-filtering experiments on [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]], and while that strikes me as a newer and less-backwards-compatible approach, it would probably be more resource-friendly.
:Is this color adjustment something the game is doing natively? i.e. does this accurately match what the game displays? I bet we could slap together an image-filtering extension (or find an existing one?) that can do this if needed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::Yeah that's what I suspected. The images the template creates are spot on, checked it against a screenshot I took of some mica rocks in-game. The css stuff is unfortunately totally incorrect, was cool to learn about it though, so not a complete waste of my time :p. The premium, in-game graphics are true sprites, basically patterns of indexed colors. Each of the in-game colors (which are significantly expanded over the 16 ascii colors, there's 116/117) there is a palette defined in "\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_descriptors_graphics\graphics\images\palettes.png". Each indexed color of the sprite is swapped for the corresponding color in the palette. Because of that, the css stuff doesn't work since it's doing the hue/saturation/brightness changes to the entire sprite.
::I've looked into an existing mediawiki extension, couldn't find anything. One thing I did't really look at is some type of lua script/module that would basically emulate what the game is doing. So some function that takes in the base image as well as the desired palette, and based on that finds and replaces each color. No idea what mediawiki's capabilities are on that front. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 05:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
:::We do have Scribunto installed now, so it's totally possible to do something in Lua too - forgot about that. I can add you to the group that grants access to edit the Module namespace if you want to give that a shot. If we use an extension, we'd probably need a custom one, similar to DFDiagram (or perhaps DFDiagram could be extended - it's in dire need of a rewrite anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:43, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::::I asked around on the mediawiki irc, I think scribunto/lua is a deadend, at least for taking an uploaded image and doing stuff to it with a lua script. However I did come up with this even more bizarre solution, using block elements. [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase2]], maybe less resource intensive? Definitely displays a lot worse though, probably unusable.
::::{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock2|palette-name=saffron}}
::::I dunno, maybe none of this is worth it and we should just write some external program to put all the images together offline, and then just mass upload. It wouldn't be ''that'' many... [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 06:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

====Is there an easy way to just paste images from the clipboard?====

I use KDE spectacle to take screenshots straight to the clipboard (after cropping) -- is there an easy way to just paste (and auto-upload) an image into an article? It would make it a lot easier to contribute images. [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:35, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Unfortunately there is not. I would be open to a MediaWiki extension to support this if someone finds one. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Looks like this could do it, but I haven't used it before: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SimpleBatchUpload [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 19:41, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

====Standards for adding graphical version screenshots and images====

Hello, new user looking into adding imagery from the new version. Is there a standard for quality of new screenshots or images? I noticed that at a certain zoom level (2 zooms in from the furthest zoomed-out view), the graphics appear crisp and 1:1 pixel scaled, and I would propose that all images be taken at this scale whenever possible. If they need to be displayed larger, they should be nearest neighbor scaled in a photo editing program at 100% increments (Microsoft Paint will do this if you first select the image rather than directly scaling the whole canvas). I would also propose that images should be cropped to conform to the 32x32 pixel grid when possible, though this could be problematic with so many new graphical elements exceeding the bounds of their tiles. I would say the best practice for capturing artwork for items, furniture etc. ought to be done in a 3x3 open area to avoid shadows from nearby walls, or else extracted from the raw files (if this doesn't run afoul of being able to re-create the graphical version using those assets).

I know that perfect is the enemy of good, and any documentation is better than none, but just thought I'd ask about this, and see if/where something like this ought to be posted. [[User:Unclesporky|Unclesporky]] ([[User talk:Unclesporky|talk]]) 13:58, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:It has been stated in [[Template:V50 workshop]] that <q>screenshots should be at the "native" resolution</q> but someone could edit the [[Screenshot]] page for best practice for the steam version. Or post some examples in [[Talk:Screenshot]] to find out what is best? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:21, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

====How would I/should I go about putting creature sprites on their pages?====

Howdy. New player and wiki user here. I wanted to try and help update the wiki to the Steam release of DF, so I figured I'd chip in by putting each creature's sprites on their respective page, since I'll often look up a creature I have yet to see in game only to be met by a blue J, or whatever. I found all of the game's creature sprites in C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_creatures_graphics\graphics\images, so I figured I could just chop those up in Photoshop and stick them on here no problem, but the programming syntax/whatever it is on this site is incredibly confusing, I don't know how I'd actually go about doing it. I figured I'd just find the spot on the page where the little letter is and replace that with the image code, but it seems the pages are built using heavily nested templates that I can't even begin to understand. Any help?--[[User:Treese|Treese]] ([[User talk:Treese|talk]]) 03:07, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:Based on [[User:Zippy|Zippy]]'s work at {{tl|Creaturelookup_b}}, I added an "image" parameter to {{tl|creaturelookup/0}}, which is what creature pages should all be using. See [[Dwarf]] and [[Cow]] for examples. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:37, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Hotkeys/Menu navigation ===
Most key bindings and menus have changed. Should the article reflect a) only the old version, b) only the GUI version or c) both? For example, [[Bridge|bridges]] used to be built via {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}, but now it's in Place strucutures {{k|b}} -> Constructions {{k|n}} -> Bridge {{k|b}}. What should be written in the article? Currently, it's {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}. I ''think'' it should be only b), but I am not sure if there will be differences regarding hotkeys or menus between the premium version and the free version and then, c) would be the most appropriate option. --[[User:Prometherus|Prometherus]] ([[User talk:Prometherus|talk]]) 10:16, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: Not sure. I wish the classic release soon --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 16:45, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: Are you Toady's herald? Looks like it was just released! [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:18, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: And our questions are answered, the old hotkeys seem to have been thrown out. Part of me is disappointed (useless muscle memory) but also relieved (unified UI for both versions is good in general and for the wiki). [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:25, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: According to info, in a sort of 'demo version' at that. I'll wait a little while longer, for myself.[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::::It's unlikely that keybindings in it will change significantly. My vote is that we should include information for both premium and classic, everywhere. Hopefully the keybindings are not different between versions. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:26, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::Shouldn't it be based on the 50 or what verion the article is written for? [[User:Dominick|Dominick]] [[User_talk:dominick|(TALK)]] 18:42, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::: The keybindings seem to be consistent between versions, (haven't checked exhausitvely, but since the menu layout is the same I think it is a good assumption). Should also keep in mind/consider that not all actions have keybindings. An option would be write 'Click on the <Example Text> icon or press {{k|E}}' [[User:Koos|Koos]] ([[User talk:Koos|talk]]) 23:14, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

=== Removed features & concepts ===

Since they're removed concepts, I've set [[Room]] to be a redirect for [[DF2014:Room]] and created [[Template:Activity zones]] for the nav bar bedrooms, etc, and made the necessary changes to [[Bedroom]] for it. Is this the correct approach, before I go on much further? (also a note, if it is, then [[Template:v50_rooms]] probably needs to be deleted) I also imagine that considering the number of changes in the interface, that things like [[Adventure mode]] and related pages might best be truncated to "not in 50.03" and when it does make it across, being more deliberately brought over in pieces? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 06:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:Usually it is marked with [[Template:Removed_feature]]. For example: [[Dipscript]] or [[Party]]. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:45, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:: Ah, that's fair. Should that be mentioned in [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Versions#Redirects]]? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 10:03, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::I think the redirect policy mostly had in mind things that were removed a ''long'' time ago, like [[Tax collector]] and [[Economy]] (and the latter actually has a stub page as well). I guess we could clarify. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:34, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: The "current" redirects also cause the version box to incorrectly show that the current version has a page - e.g. [[23a:Cave_river]] shows a v50.04 version, but it's just a redirect back to that version. Similarly, what should happen to redirects like [[Clothes maker]], where a concept has evolved? It currently goes to [[23a:Clothes maker]] - that's correct if the user is trying to look up a very old concept, but if a new user is looking for "how to make clothes", they should be directed to [[Clothier]]. --[[User:Danny252|Danny252]] ([[User talk:Danny252|talk]]) 12:16, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: One should be careful with cv redirects. Most that were recently adjusted were unused plural forms (that should probably be deleted) but few like [[Crown]] needed that for backward compatibility. Removing the [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&type=revision&diff=279966&oldid=219482 cv part] means the the link on [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is now broken. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 22:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::If [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is about v0.31, it should not be using "main:" in its links - ''all'' of those links are going to pages about v50, not v0.31, regardless of whether the target is a redirect or not. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:37, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: You right, I removed it. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 17:55, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Crown cv redir issue is now fixed, I believe. As goes with such cases where one can simply revert the troublesome edit, unless I've mistepped, myself? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 23:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:Both [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=280026] and [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=279966] should not have had any effect, because "cv" is an alias to the main namespace now, just like "main". Proof: [[Crown]], [[cv:Crown]], [[main:Crown]]. It's possible caching is coming into play here, although I purged the redirect cache after making that alias change earlier this month... —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:02, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

I think there have been some changes not captured, but as a newb, I'm afraid to edit the page(s). A good example is Strawberry. I'm playing the Steam version right now and Strawberry plants are "not relevant to brewing" in Labor > kitchen > veg / fruit / leaves. Unless I'm mistaken and need to process them? Another example is the trade caravan = it seems the 3 square pathing no longer happens; it's just yak(s). 12:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC) 12:29, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
:Strawberries should be brewable according to the Raws.
:Trade wagons has been modified in v50. The first wagons will arrive at the same time your fort is becoming a barony. Until then, it's only pack animals and stairs are indeed fine. The [[Trading]] page needs a huge rework anyway... I'll try to do that next week. --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

<s>As far as I can tell, none of the workshop buildings in v50 have blocking tiles any more. There's a comment to the like in data/vanilla/vanilla_buildings/objects/building_custom.txt that says this "[BLOCK:1:0:0:0] workbenches no longer block". Hesitant to update that template as I'm not sure if it's referenced for all of the old versions too. </s> [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 05:54, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
: A new template has been created: {{tl|V50 workshop}} --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::Thanks! In general, I would like to delegate the switching responsibility to the template (like how {{tl|creaturelookup/0}} works), but in cases where the parameters diverge significantly like with workshops, it could make sense to make an entirely new template. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

=== creature infobox prototype (moved) ===

Check it out, I made a temporary template and added it to the [[cow]]s page. Now it shows the sprites (but not the zombified versions yet). I wanted to show everyone a prototype of what v50 creature infoboxes should look like. Or at least something similar to it. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:11, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
:Hi, I'm new to editing wikis but I have done a bit of work with sprite sheets and I've been going through the DF data files to find the different graphics hoping to help with the animal pages. I've thrown together a template with grass and a few nature sprites (plants, a tree, and a rock) for size reference but I'm unsure how large the 'display' tiles in the middle of the template should be to suit all animals. I can see in the sprite sheets that some land animals have an adult and child sprite, so two tiles. Others have a male, female, and child, but after seeing you include the zombie cows I'm unsure if I should make it twice the size to add them too. Alternatively, I could grab some tiles from the haunted biomes for the zombie animals and make a separate template for a side-by-side comparison. Either way, let me know if this helps. I'd like to help with other graphics too as we add the premium tilesets but the animals seemed the easiest to tackle with me being new to wiki editing. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::@Zippy, I am a bit perplexed about the purple cows. Why do we need a zombified version of creatures on every page?
::@UristTheSeventh, we can use all the help. Maybe post an example, so that we can have something to compare and contrast.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::@Jan Here are the examples:
:::[[File:Creature template.png]] [[File:Armadillo.png]] [[File:Seagull.png]]
:::It'll need to be wider or arranged differently for different creatures with more that two sprites or for multi-tile creatures. I can also do an aquatic and air themed template for swimming and flying creatures. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::::Looks nice, like the metal template. There are several people working on updating the graphics you should talk more among yourselves. Best I can offer is that I width wise I am hoping to go up to 200px for infoboxes.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 01:13, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:::: We don't exactly ''need'' a zombie sprite on each page. I added it because it was... there. I was also hoping to get some opinions on it anyway since that infobox is a visual prototype, and not a final choice. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:28, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

===Furniture Infobox===
{{Quality|Unrated}}
{{v50_furniture|name=Bed
|graphic=[[File:bed_sprite_prototype.png]]
|tile=Θ|col=6:0:0
|wood=y
|rooms=
* [[Bedroom]]
* [[Barracks]]
* [[Dormitory]]
|value=10}}
I made a v50 furniture template prototype. I tested this on Firefox, Chrome and Microsoft Edge/Internet Explorer and it looks fine on all of them. I hope this is good enough to be the official thing, unless I'm missing something. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:28, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
{{clear}}

=== When do we remove the migration note on specific pages? ===

At what point can we remove the "this page was auto migrated from v47" warning? There are a bunch of small pages that are more or less accurate, if I've reviewed them, can I go ahead and remove the warning? [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Yes, feel free to remove it if you think all content is accurate. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Any info on fixing "creature description not found?" ===

I see this issue on most creature pages, it seems to be due to a lookup that's not currently functioning? Cows interestingly doesn't have this issue but I couldn't figure out how to recreate whatever fix it's editor did. --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 00:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:That is the missing raws issue described above. Cow was fixed by the addition of [[cow/raw]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:28, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::Ah makes sense, not fully used to the language of wikis yet so I read over it while looking. To put this bit of questioning to rest for any future readers, is it correct that it's fine to update any raws manually, though it will be done automatically at some point? --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 07:48, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Yes. I'm circling back to work on a script right now, so not much point in doing it if you're reading this. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::This should be fixed now. If you continue to see pages with problems, you can try [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Purge purging the cache]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:59, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Adventurer Mode related sections ===

The topic has already been discussed [[#Removed features & concepts|above]], but I don't see a clear line on what to do with article sections that mention Adventurer Mode. Like for example in [[Butcher#Adventurer_mode|Butcher]].

'''a) Truncate''' or '''b) leave in place with a mention''' that the mode is not yet present IG but will be added in a future update?

Personally I think option b) is better, because I think it's silly to undo some work just to reintroduce it a few weeks later, with the necessary corrections. Even if a copy/paste of a previous version takes ~15 seconds, considering the number of articles that need to be corrected, it would be a bit of a waste of time.--[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

== Toggleable image ==

Any objections/comments to using this template for now for toggling between classic and premium images? I'd probably rename it to "Template:Premium-classic thumb image". I'm sure someone can come up with a better UI eventually, but should be easy to migrate at that point. I also think we should use the same customtoggle class for this and for the infobox. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 23:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png
}}

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png|
caption=My caption|
width=100px
}}

:This looks nice to me! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

: Good initiative. From the top of my head:
:* I suggest using a shorthand, no one wants to type 'Premium-classic thumb image'.
:* If we end up using toggle for infoboxes (not sure where we headed there), then I agree definitely same custom toggle class should be used for all, thus allowing to switch premium-classic view on the whole page at a click.
:* The button part on a separate row isn't pretty, creating a lot of dead space that can be used by the text. Are we set on the label 'toggle ascii'? Classic isn't Ascii per se, maybe we can use a 'toggle' with a tooltip {{tooltip|for example|does bla bla bla}}, or maybe we can get rid of the text and have a smaller icon button ([[User:Jan/sandbox#Metal_example|two examples]]).
: I hope that helps. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

:: I added [[Template:Dual image]] with some of your suggestions. Agree that it's not super pretty, feel free to try something different.

::* I put the toggle in the caption mostly because I gave up on trying to make a more sophisticated replacement for the default thumb image behavior, I'm sure someone with better wiki-fu could put together something more intelligent.
::* I cut the text down to just "Toggle"; I think the best solution would be a small graphic showing the old and new dwarf icons with arrows between them. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 19:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

{{Dual image|
premium=File:DFwiki5by53by3farm.png|
classic=File:Quickstart_layout_3.png|
width=100px|
caption=A 5x5 room with a 3x3 farm plot
}}
::: I updated the layout, now it should look just like a regular image thumb. I didn't had time to test it, if it doesn't work for you or you don't like it just revert the last change. cheers. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::::I don't know which part of this talk page to put this, but I added the ability to add icons to the v50 workshops template. Leaving the icon part blank will not break the template in any way. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 09:47, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
{{clear}}
==Creature List Now Supports Graphics!==
I wasn't easy, but I made new templates so the [[Creature]]s page now supports both graphics sprites ''and'' ASCII tiles. Allow me to show you:

{{v50_creaturecurrent_table_head}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:dwarf_sprite.png]]|name=[[Dwarf]]|symbol=☺|color=3:0:0|playable=Fort, Adv|hostile=No|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Mountain halls]], [[Fortress|dwarf fortress]]es, [[hillock]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:elf_sprite.png]]|name=[[Elf]]|symbol=e|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Forest retreat]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:human_sprite.png]]|name=[[Human]]|symbol=U|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=70,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Town]]s and cities|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:goblin_sprite.png]]|name=[[Goblin]]|symbol=g|color=7:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Dark fortress]]es and [[dark pit]]s|note=Snatchers2}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:kobold_sprite.png]]|name=[[Kobold]]|symbol=k|color=6:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=20,000|value=Not tameable|biome=Caves|note=Skulking race}}
|}

Oh wait, there's a bonus. You can also modify the background color of the box the sprites go in. I added that to make possibly-hard-to-see-otherwise sprites more easy to see - depending on the colors it has. Allow me to demonstrate.

{{v50_creaturecurrent_table_head}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:dwarf_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#829ccc|name=[[Dwarf]]|symbol=☺|color=3:0:0|playable=Fort, Adv|hostile=No|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Mountain halls]], [[Fortress|dwarf fortress]]es, [[hillock]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:elf_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#c7dfc0|name=[[Elf]]|symbol=e|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Forest retreat]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:human_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#c7dfc0|name=[[Human]]|symbol=U|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=70,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Town]]s and cities|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:goblin_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#dfc0c0|name=[[Goblin]]|symbol=g|color=7:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Dark fortress]]es and [[dark pit]]s|note=Snatchers2}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:kobold_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#dfc0c0|name=[[Kobold]]|symbol=k|color=6:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=20,000|value=Not tameable|biome=Caves|note=Skulking race}}
|}

To change the background color, add <code><nowiki>|bgcolor=COLOR</nowiki></code> segment after the <code><nowiki>|graphic</nowiki></code> part. You can use color names or HTML hex color codes. I added this to the v50 creatures page, but at this time, I only added the first five creatures I just displayed. It's gonna take a while to find ALL of those creature sprites. I hope a lot of people help out on that one. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 05:29, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

:Thanks, looks nice! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:44, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:Nice stuff, took the quick liberty to change the padding-left -> text-align to make all the sprites center aligned relative to each other :) Sweet work --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:41, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Good work indeed. One minor issue, is that all the sprites have different sizes, which sometimes create slight variation in table row height. Consider using capping the image size vertically for example <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px]]</nowiki></code>--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:15, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Also often in such tables people want to click on the image to go for the specific entry, and often will try to click on the very first thing they see in line the thumb image, but currently that will take them to the file page. Consider adding link parameter for example: <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=dwarf]]</nowiki></code> [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=dwarf]] or no link at all <code><nowiki>[[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=]]</nowiki></code> [[File:dwarf_sprite.png|x32px|link=]] --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:24, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
::: I mean... Yeah, I could do that. I think that lessens the quality of the sprite a bit because it makes edges blurry, but either way is fine. I could have sworn I added a link for all those images the first time. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:23, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::::Since we are adding pixel art sprites to the website it might be convincing to add a global class like .sprite or .pixel-image that uses the CSS attribute `image-rendering: pixelated;` in order to prevent blurryness when scaling the image up/down. Just a thought --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 09:40, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions

2023-01-05T17:41:09Z

Vallode: /* Creature List Now Supports Graphics! */

{{archive|
# [[DF Talk:Versions/Archive 1|Page 1]]}}

== Version 0.31.19 starts a new DF generation? ==

My reading of Toady's comments on the release of 0.31.19 is that it came out basically because he felt it would take too long to get DF all the way to 0.32. With the ore changes, the sitefinder changes, the addition of grazing and several different industries, there's a lot of changes between 31.18 and 31.19. So I'm thinking it might be a good idea to call it the first release of DF2011 - and what we refer to as "DF2010" would then become 0.31.18.

Thoughts? --[[User:DeMatt|DeMatt]] 07:06, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

==Revisiting Redirects==
I wasn't around when the redirect policy was created, and I'm having trouble understanding the rationale. The example claims that linking [[Main:Cheese]] to [[cv:Cheese maker]] is problematic...but mainspace only ever redirects to the current version. If the best target in the current version is cheese maker, why not link to it directly? (It's not, at least for Cheese, since [[DF2012:Cheese]] exists now.) The explanation seems to be claiming that 40d articles that link to Cheese will follow the Mainspace link--but that hasn't been the case for a long while now. Articles in 40d automatically link against other articles in 40d, so that version remains internally consistent no matter where mainspace links to in the current version. For a current example, what do we gain by linking [[Main:Mead]] to [[cv:Mead]] and linking [[DF2012:Mead]] to [[DF2012:Alcohol]]?

If this really is just an outdated procedure, I recommend we drop the mummery and allow mainspace to link to cv:(best target). Double redirects ''may'' work (sometimes, but [[Main:Mead]] demonstrates a common problem where automatic redirection fails), but if they are unnecessary I think they should be avoided, partly because of problems like [[Main:Mead]] and partly because of the effort required to protect double redirects from users who believe they are problematic.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:16, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

:I was just thinking that. I'm currently attempting to write a basic extension to eliminate the need for mainspace redirects entirely, although Mediawiki's class structure may make this more difficult than I had hoped (the only method I've found for resolving redirects takes the ''article text'' instead of a title, e.g. "#REDIRECT ..."). I do agree that the current situation with redirects isn't ideal, so I'm hoping this will work better (once I get it to work). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:42, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Okay, that wasn't quite as clear as I meant it to be. In general, I think this is a tricky situation. Mediawiki wasn't designed to have five content namespaces, and certainly not chains of redirects between them. The problem that was pointed out in the [[DF:REDIR|policy]] is the fact that with:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
pages in the cv: namespace can't use [[<nowiki/>foo]], since the namespace links modification causes it to be treated as [[<nowiki/>cv:foo]] instead, which doesn't exist. The current suggested solution is this:
Main:Foo -> cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
This fixes the problem of [[<nowiki/>foo]] not working on cv pages, but creates issues with double redirects not always working. Another solution, which is more intuitive to new editors, is:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
Both require creating two redirects. The first method has the advantage of ''ensuring'' that the cv redirect exists (otherwise, main:foo would be a redlink), while the second has the advantage of working more reliably in a couple cases.

What I'm trying to do is make main:Foo "jump" to cv:Foo when cv:foo exists, ''even if main:foo doesn't exist'' (basically it would treat all mainspace pages as redirects to cv pages, but only if the cv page exists and not the mainspace page). I had main:Bar jumping to cv:Bar fine, but if cv:Foo redirected to cv:Bar, accessing main:Foo would mysteriously stop at cv:Foo even if I increased the redirect limit. What I'm trying to do now is follow the redirects internally, without relying on Mediawiki to do it automatically - unfortunately, that has proved to be harder than I had hoped (and I sent my web server into an infinite loop while trying). I will try to work on this some more when I get a chance, although I'm not sure when that'll be yet :(. For now, feel free to fix broken double mainspace redirects as necessary, as long as redirects in the DF2012 namespace stay pointing to the right page (and new mainspace redirects get added in the DF2012 namespace too). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

:You're treating cv like a namespace--it's not. It is simply shorthand for "fill in the current version here". [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Briess&diff=182404&oldid=181281 As I discovered a long time ago on a server not far away], linking from Main:Foo to cv:Foo tends to break redirection chains. If, instead of linking to cv:Foo, you link to DF2012:Foo, it might just work. It would, of course, be better if your patch could evaluate cv itself, but even if you have to hardcode the current version it's a single point of maintenance that requires update very infrequently. (For that matter, we could probably dispense with the cv hack entirely and just have a bot update mainspace links from DF2012 to DF201X when we switch to a new version.)--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:05, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
::I know cv isn't a namespace - I was just trying to avoid future confusion when the DF2012 namespace changes. It's interesting that changing "cv" to "DF2012" fixes some broken redirects, although I've found that simply making an edit to a broken redirect can usually fix it as well. I've actually had the most problems with double redirects when the second one (in the DF2012 namespace) doesn't use the DF2012 prefix (e.g. main:Foo containing <nowiki>[[cv:Foo]] and DF2012:Foo containing [[Bar]]</nowiki>). I'd rather keep the cv alias even if it isn't necessary for mainspace redirects when I get the patch to work, since it makes it easier to refer to the current version of the page (for example, several MDF articles contain links to a vanilla page for things that don't change in the mod).
::Also, using aliases like "cv" is supported by Mediawiki; in fact, several WMF wikis use them (for example, "[[wikipedia:WP:Redirects|WP:Redirects]]" on Wikipedia). It's quite likely that Mediawiki isn't processing double redirects using aliases correctly, though, since that's uncommon on most wikis. --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:35, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

In light of the lack of support for the current redirect policy, I propose we replace the current redirect section with:

:Mainspace article pages should use the cv: alias when redirecting to a versioned page, which will automatically update the link when a new version is released. For example, page "Main:Foo" should redirect to page "cv:Bar" (where "Bar" is the page that best describes the topic Foo in the current version).

:Pages in mainspace should only redirect to an older versioned page if that content no longer exists in the current version of the game (e.g. [[Cave river]], [[Chunk]]). In these cases the cv: alias cannot be used.

:Pages inside a versioned namespace should not use the cv: alias. Instead, they should redirect to the best page within that versioned namespace (e.g. [[DF2012:Dodging]], [[v0.31:Drink]]).

:Due to limitations of the wiki software, double redirects should be avoided if possible. When fixing double redirects in mainspace, please make sure to use the cv: alias as appropriate.

If no one objects, I will make this change in a few days.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:21, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

:Okay with me. It may be worth mentioning that double redirects only really need to be changed when they don't work (since changing a lot of redirects that work isn't necessary), but I think it's clearer and more relevant than the current policy. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Done.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:55, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I was finally able to get my extension to work after being motivated by one too many malfunctioning redirects. It now causes nonexistent pages in the main namespace to behave exactly like redirects to their DF2012 counterparts (when linked to, accessed directly, and transcluded). Double redirects also work (up to 100, in fact, although that was a temporary safety measure that I'll probably change). This means we'll be able to safely get rid of all mainspace redirects (redirects that redirect to something other than "cv" will still function if not deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:20, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
:What about articles which don't exist in the current version but do exist in older versions? Will those still need mainspace redirects, or will your extension be able to automatically redirect them to v0.31/40d/23a? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] ([[User talk:Quietust|talk]]) 01:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
::It ignores all mainspace pages that actually have content, including redirects, so pages like [[masons guild]] won't be affected (unless deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:47, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Done and deployed. [[Cat]] is still treated as a redirect, even though I just deleted it (try clicking on the "redirected from" link). Pages that exist are ignored, so [[Masons guild]] and [[History of Dwarf Fortress]] still function normally (as a redirect to a 23a page and a non-redirect, respectively). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm sending around a bot right now to delete all redirects of the format "foo -> cv:foo" (a surprising number don't fit this format, so I'm leaving them alone for now). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:43, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

:I'm confused. Do we use double redirects or not? Is there a single place we define our linking policy (including redirects), and is it updated?
:I had trouble linking to [[Consolidated_development]] in [[v0.34:Dragon]]. It kept pointing to v0.34:Consolidated_development, which does not exist. I ended up linking to Main:Consolidated_development to make it work. --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] ([[User talk:Nahno|talk]]) 10:18, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

::That's a separate problem altogether - links in the versioned namespaces (v0.34, v0.31, 40d, 23a) automatically link to pages within their namespace. I may be able to set up a fallback to mainspace once I'm able to deploy again, but for now the "main:" alias is the intended solution. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 11:36, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

== Google often directs people to the 0.31 page ==

I've noticed a couple of times that finding a wiki page from an external search will often drop me onto a page from an older version. Is it possible to mitigate this somehow for new players? I could imagine something like redirecting old:Bar -> cv:Bar unless the user has come from old:Foo; no idea if that would actually work though. [[User:PeridexisErrant|PeridexisErrant]] ([[User talk:PeridexisErrant|talk]]) 11:48, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

:As a temporary solution, I could write a script that displays a banner of some kind if the user came from an external site. I'll ask Briess if he can do anything on the server level to increase the weighting of the current version's pages. (Obviously there are situations where people are looking for old pages, like [[23a:dungeon master]], so we don't want to disable indexing entirely on old pages.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:03, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

== DF2014? ==

As Toady [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ draws closer to a new release], it might be worthwhile to discuss the addition of a new version to the wiki. The upcoming release covers two years of changes and introduces a number of new plants, foods, drinks, multi-tile trees, climbing, jumping, etc., so it is likely to have significant changes from the current DF2012. To avoid having people start new pages (and lose all the effort spent refining the prior version's page), I think it would be best to have a bot automatically copy over the DF2012 pages as a starting point for DF2014. I would suggest that these copied pages include a noticebox template mentioning that the content may be outdated, so that we can easily track which pages have been reviewed. I think either the {{tl|version check}} or {{tl|old}} template would work. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:43, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

:This is what [[User:QuietBot]] did after the 0.34 release, so it's certainly possible to use the same script to migrate to DF2014. I would like a way of tagging migrated pages, since inaccuracies in some pages went unnoticed for months after they were migrated. Since {{tl|old}} is already in use, {{tl|version check}} may be a better solution (it can be reworded slightly, or we can make a separate template for DF2014 migration). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:23, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
:Made [[Template:DF2014 migrated]] as an example. Any thoughts? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:32, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

== Redirects inconsistency ==

Following a redirect is supposed to be exactly the same as going straight to the page it redirects to, but this actually isn't the case:
* Go to [[Seeds]] and you get [[v0.34:Seed]] (outdated)
* Go to http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Seeds&redirect=no and click on the link and you get to [[DF2014:Seed]] (current)
So if you search for "seed", the top result is the DF2014 version. But search for "seeds" and you get the redirect, which sends you to the outdated page instead. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

While I'm talking about redirects, it seems redirects to sections don't work: see [[DF2014:How do I manage my seeds and crops]]. I know MediaWiki is capable of this trick because Wikipedia does it. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:32, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

:I have absolutely no idea why [[seeds]] redirects to a v0.34 page - it could be a Mediawiki bug. The section links issue is due to a known issue in the redirect extension we use, which has yet to be fixed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:01, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
:It looks like deleting both [[Seeds]] and [[DF2014:Seeds]] fixed things (by allowing AutoRedirect to handle the redirects instead). Feel free to tag any others with {{tl|bad redirect}}. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::It gets stranger. [[Vial]] redirects explicitly to [[cv:Flask]] which displays (when you look at it with &redirect=no) as [[DF2014:Flask]], but still goes to the v0.34 version. It seems redirects interpret the cv: pseudo-namespace (or whatever it's called) in an outdated way. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 18:08, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::I've added a note to this page about this issue. If it gets resolved, the note should be removed. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 21:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

==Reorganizing versions==

The internet deals with moved content... poorly. Google is still linking to v0.34 pages more than a year after the switch to "DF2014", and even the wiki software still has cached links pointing to the old version pages.

I propose reorganizing versions on the wiki to avoid moving content whenever possible. Instead of having a temporary "current version" namespace that changes occasionally, all the current information gets promoted to the Main namespace. When the next version split occurs, the Main articles as of a certain revision number can be copied to the newly-created permanent "old version" namespace, while all the current information remains in Main. This not only fixes the link rot issue, but it has a few other benefits as well: fewer administrative tasks, no lockdown (a historical version of the Main pages can be copied at any point, even if the Main articles are already modified for the new version), almost all the article history is maintained in the Main article (instead of being spread unevenly across multiple versions), no "temporary" namespaces are needed, fewer problematic long redirect chains, and hopefully less user confusion (since Main gets priority in search results, etc.).

As an example, today we would not have a DF2014 namespace (which is good because "temporary" namespaces historically disappear anyway). If you ran a search for [[seed]] you'd end up at Main:seed, which would have all the current information on seeds. The version box at the top of the page would still link to the older versions of the seed article. When a new version is released, an admin would choose a revision number and copy the Main:seed article as it exists at that revision number to v0.40:seed. That's it. One historical copy that needs little to no new editing, and zero redirections/moves.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:02, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

:Makes sense to me. It would involve a lot of work, though (e.g. fixing templates and categories to account for the current version being in mainspace), although that should be doable thanks to {{tl|category}}, {{tl|version switch}}, etc.. A bot could be set up to copy revisions from before a release date as well, which would be more difficult (and maybe slower) than a direct copy, but not severely. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:24, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

:Actually, there are a few issues with that, namely that there wouldn't be an easy way to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned mainspace pages. There are ways to resolve Google search priority (we can exclude pages from older versions from search engine results if there are newer versions of those pages available, for example). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:47, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::There aren't very many non-versioned mainspace pages, and determining if a page is versioned is as simple as looking for the version template and/or categories added by the version template (e.g. copy [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Category:Current this category] instead of Main:*). The problem with "suggesting" newer pages to Google is that they obviously aren't crawling our wiki regularly (if they were, the fact that the mainspace redirects point to new pages would automatically be picked up). Even if your Google hints worked they wouldn't do anything for all the other broken links out on the 'net.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:35, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: Google actually crawls the wiki constantly - we probably get crawl hits from google for a continuous block of 2-3 hours per day, each and every day. Why they are slow to update is beyond me though. I can't remember why we didn't do this initially, but there was a technical limitation involved if I remember correctly. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] ([[User talk:Briess|talk]]) 22:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: There are <meta> tags that can be used to hide pages from search results (for search engines that recognize them, that is). Searching for {{tl|av}} or [[:Category:Current]] might work, although we'd have to make sure all of the DF2014 pages include that (some pages don't, particularly some disambiguation pages, although all of them should). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:53, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

:Is there a particular reason main and current are separate to begin with?—[[User:CLA|CLA]] ([[User talk:CLA|talk]]) 00:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

::It's mostly intended to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned pages and make version-related templates simpler to work with, since every versioned page has a namespace. I wasn't active here in 2010 when this system was created, so Briess and Emi would know more.
::Another issue I just thought of with Loci's suggestion is categories - currently, categories like [[:Category:Animals]] are used to organize the versioned sub-categories. Sure, we can change {{tl|Category}} to categorize mainspace pages in [[:Category:v0.40:Animals]] or [[:Category:DF2014:Animals]], but that would be less straightforward because there wouldn't be a namespace with that name (until pages are migrated when a newer major version is released). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

:Moving current pages to the main namespace sounds like a great idea. -[[User:Jecowa|Jecowa]] ([[User talk:Jecowa|talk]]) 20:47, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Another thought: dealing with migrating redirects could be difficult with this proposal - specifically, determining which redirects should be migrated to a versioned namespace. Redirects can't contain {{tl|av}}, at least not before ``#REDIRECT``. I ''think'' it would be possible to copy pages in two stages, though - all non-redirects first, then all redirects whose targets were also copied. Thoughts? Anything I'm missing? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:41, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Some subpages (particularly /raw and /Edit notice) also deliberately lack {{tl|av}}, although those shouldn't be too hard to handle. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

:Redirect pages (and all other edge cases I've looked at) can be included in categories (like [[:Category:Current]]) to determine whether or not they should be copied into an archival version. But if the redirects are "properly qualified" then they can all be copied over blindly. Mainspace redirects pointing to versioned information should use a blank namespace (which will be automatically constrained to the archival namespace); mainspace redirects pointing to unversioned information should use an explicit "Main" (which will automatically link back to the unversioned page). Then, when [[[[Toady]]]] gets copied to [[[[v0.4x:Toady]]]] it will point back to [[[[Main:Toady One]]]]. Meanwhile, [[[[Beer]]]], copied to [[[[v0.4x:Beer]]]], will properly point to [[[[v0.4x:Alcohol]]]].--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:00, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

::I think qualifying redirects is the best solution here - categorizing redirects manually is another possible source of errors, since categories (or a lack thereof) would only be visible on the redirect page itself, and [[:Category:Current]] is a hidden category. Copying over mainspace redirects into versioned namespaces would also resolve some issues that have come up due to those not reliably existing currently. I should be able to set up a bot script to add "main:" to current mainspace redirects (and it shouldn't break anything, since those redirects go to other mainspace pages anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:57, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

(Note: I wrote all of this without noticing the previous discussion above.) I was wondering, when the wiki creates a new namespace for a major release again, if it is possible to ''not'' create a namespace for the next current version (e.g. "DF202x") and instead have the mainspace articles (which are currently redirects) become the new cv and move the content there. Therefore, [[cv:Cat]] would just be "[[Cat]]" (or [[Main:Cat]]).

Certain namespace-related templates like [[Template:Ns/0]] would need to be changed, though nothing significant as far as I know. For most cases, any "DF2014" would be replaced with "Main" or even blank. There's also multiple extensions handling the current namespace system and they may need to be modified too, though I'm not sure if or how much. I'm guessing based on the discussions above that it will change stuff up.

My reason is the current namespace is increasingly becoming more anachronistic. "DF2014" could be misinterpreted as "this page is about the 2014 version of the game" or "this page was last updated in 2014", which I've seen a few people in forums mention. Granted that [[Template:Av]] is on the top of very article, I still think the namespace is inconsistent with the recentness of the article. But how is this related to what I'm asking for? Let's say we continue the current system: if we happen to do a new namespace change this year and create DF2020, the next major release (after graphics/UI) will be mythgen, which is estimated to take several years to develop (the Big Wait), and so the anachronism will start over again. The proposed way will prevent this from occurring for the next major release and every release thereafter.

I think the confusion with having a namespace that becomes old-fashioned overtime supersedes the confusion with not marking current versioned articles with a namespace. Most users just search "Cat" on the search bar and naturally expect to get information about the latest release of DF. So if users go a page that's just titled "Cat", they won't expect outdated info about cats from a previous release. That's how the current system works anyways. We'll be skipping the two-step process that we have now. It'll make several wiki tasks much simpler as well. Editors can create new articles for current versions without remembering to add a namespace. It'll fix any existing issues with (double) redirects; instead of [[Main:Kitten]] redirecting to [[cv:Kitten]], which goes to [[DF2014:Kitten]], which then redirects to [[DF2014:Cat]], [[Main:Kitten]] would just redirect to [[Main:Cat]]. And the cv: alias will no longer be necessary since "cv:" = "Main:" and will be forever.

There's no need to differentiate the current version and previous versions with a namespace for the current version is what I'm saying. Articles of previous versions will retain their respective namespaces. Users will still type "40d:Cat" to go to the 40d version of the article, but if they want the current version, they'll just type "Cat" (like now). The mainspace containing the "live" version of an article is natural and would create no uncertainty when browsing the wiki. And it would simplify the wiki somewhat and future-proof this anachronism problem. As a bonus, this change will also prevent web search engines from showing previous version pages when typing "DF cat" or something. (This isn't happening right now as DF2014 has been the current namespace for ~6 years, but it'll happen again when everything moves to a new namespace.)

This is the gist of it, and I may have ignored most of the problems with this proposal. I have personally wished for the whole version namespacing be made less complicated and have been seeking for a solution, and I feel like this is the best way to go about in the future. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:27, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:<s>Whoops, looks like Loci already proposed this exact thing long ago. I definitely missed that discussion and should have checked first. My apologies. I'll move my text to that section and remove this one. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:36, 14 August 2020 (UTC)</s> Done. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:40, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:The main issue I have with that is that putting pages about the current version in a namespace also differentiates between those pages and pages not about ''any'' version (for example, [[Toady One]] does not need a 40d or v0.34 page). Yes, we can use {{tl|av}} to mark versioned pages, but people often forget to add that to new pages. The current system also allows determining whether a page is versioned or not from its title, which makes migrations a lot faster. Relying on {{tl|av}} would require either reading the content of every page (which would slow scripts down significantly) or cross-checking with the list of all pages including the template (feasible, but a bit more complicated, and still susceptible to missing templates). I suppose that manually fixing and migrating pages missing {{tl|av}} later wouldn't be too much work, though.
:I am definitely in favor of changing "DF2014" (or a new namespace) to "Current", though. I was in favor of "DF2014" in 2014, but I don't think it makes sense anymore, and "Current" seemed to be a popular alternative in both the DF2012 and DF2014 discussions on the matter. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

== Weird redirect behaviour ==

[[Pump stack]] redirects to [[cv:Screw pump#Pump stack]]. If you look at the redirect itself it says it redirects to DF2014 namespace, which is correct. But if you actually follow the redirect, it goes to v0.34 namespace. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 16:10, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
:Yeah, that's part of the issue described in the above section (the wiki caching part, not on Google's end.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:00, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

== v50 organization ==

Some wiki admins have had a talk on Discord and decided that the most sustainable path forward is to put content for all future versions of DF in the main namespace. We will be working on a bot to do this in the next few days. Feel free to chime in with suggestions here. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

:Is it maybe possible to do backwards-namespacing? Like we have a "Main" namespace, which people are free to update, and whenever there's a new version of DF the "Main" namespace is copied into a namespace for the then old version, much like how you'd branch a stable branch from a development branch when working with a git-project? [[User:Therahedwig|Therahedwig]] ([[User talk:Therahedwig|talk]]) 23:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

::Yeah, we could do that if we decide to. We were talking about doing that for v50, actually, and might still do something similar to preserve edit history if it doesn't end up being too hard to automate. Our hope is that we will not introduce new namespaces for v50 -> v5x, unless there is a serious breaking change (and hopefully there isn't one). But if we change our mind, one advantage of the type of migration you mentioned is that it can be done retroactively - we can copy historical revisions that were current at the time of the release, and would only lose some typo fixes made after the release that apply to earlier versions as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:11, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

ETA is < 24 hours. Doing some final checks on a migration script. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 07:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

: We should really have a task list as there are many things that change and need updating. Including but not limited to:
:* Most templates that used the previous namespace convention broke, including nav templates.
:* Many game files changed locations and their pages need to be updated.
:* Raws need to be updated.
:* Various features added, changed, removed.
:* UI has been changed -- though I am more inclined to wait for classic release to avoid extra work --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

"''Raws need to be updated.''" Including applying text wraparound where necessary, I suppose - more than a few of them have proven to be that special kind of...''difficult'' to navigate otherwise, shall we say? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 12:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:There is already a task list in the [[#v50 migration|section below]] that includes templates and raws, with an explanation. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

== v50 migration ==

The initial migration script is done. New content is in the '''main''' namespace, e.g. [[Cat]]. Old content is still at [[DF2014:Cat]]. History was migrated to the ''new'' (main namespace) articles.

I know several things are broken still. Please reply if you find any others:
<div style="border-left: 2px solid red">
* <s>Versioned templates haven't been migrated yet (e.g. {{tl|vermin}} on [[Ant]])</s>
** Fixed. Most were migrated by a bot.
* <s>Raws are missing on all pages that use them.</s>
** This also affects sidebars, such as on [[Cat]] and [[Microcline]].
** Update: The DFRawFunctions extension has been upgraded to include v50 raws, using the "v50:" prefix for filenames instead of "DF2014:". <s>I haven't finished a migration script to create the /raw pages themselves, but they can typically be created manually by copying the DF2014 /raw pages and changing "DF2014" to "v50" everywhere.</s> —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
** Update 2: Raws have been added for all pages! They were copied from the "DF2014" pages and had "DF2014" replaced with "v50", which appears to have worked from a spot-check, but let me know if you find any problems. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
* Some pages where the DF2014 page was a redirect to a main namespace page that contained content were migrated incorrectly.
** In this case, the main namespace page is usually a redirect to itself. This can be fixed by undoing LethosorBot's edit to the main namespace page, then copying the content to the DF2014 page.
** Update: most seem to have been fixed manually - thanks! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* <s>Some main-namespace talk pages redirect to DF2014 talk pages. Some of these redirects work, and some (usually older ones) do not.</s>
** Fixed with a bot. Some redirects from talk pages to other deleted talk pages are now broken, e.g. [[Talk:Above_ground]] (exists) -> [[Talk:Tile attributes]] (redlink). I am leaving them like that because they redirect to where the talk page should be created, but I'm also fine with people deleting them if they really want to. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* {{tl|quality}} for new articles is disabled (see below)
* Some links from DF2014 to Main weren't working: e.g. the version selector [[DF2014:Mason's workshop]] was linking to [[DF2014:Main:Mason's workshop]] instead of [[Main:Mason's workshop]]. I'm not sure exactly why, but I fixed it with a change to the NamespaceLinks extension. Let me know if you spot similar broken links. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:19, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
</div>

—[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:54, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:The quality levels of the 50.03 pages seem to be missing. I'm not sure if that's covered under that first point. [[User:Trainzack|Trainzack]] ([[User talk:Trainzack|talk]]) 06:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::If the the [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Quality]] feature can be made to work with namespace scheme change, I suggest to automatically assign the lowest quality rating to all pages, alternately add the {{tl|old}} to all pages. Otherwise there will be a lot of pages that will fall through the cracks. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::I disabled {{tl|quality}} in the main namespace because it would require some rework to make the rating script and the template work properly there. Feel free to take a stab at the template. I will see what can be done on the extension side. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::What needs to be done on the template side? I'm not sure I see too big of an issue leaving pages as "unknown-quality" for now (or just change the default to tattered) until we get the rating script working. Is that script up anywhere, anything that could be helped with? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:10, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::They're already marked as unknown. Really the only issue I know of with the template is that it doesn't show up with some of the newer skins we added, and that can be fixed by getting rid of the absolute positioning. As for the script, it can be found at https://github.com/DF-Wiki/QualityRatings, and the issue is really only with the configuration system not recognizing the main namespace as valid. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:29, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::Great, I started having a crack at fixing the template with different themes. Is the preference to get some CSS going and then include it in the global stylesheet (i.e different styles per theme) or to try and get a "one size fits all" fix? —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 08:14, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I would rather avoid custom site-wide CSS if we can. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I appreciate that, I think it's the simplest solution to add a few lines to common.css though. Unless there is a way to attach CSS specifically to a template, I saw a few extensions that allowed that but I'm not sure if any are present in the wiki at the moment. Regardless there already exists a class `div.topicon` that is specifically for the quality ratings, is there an issue with expanding this class to accommodate the themes? The list of themes where the quality rating display is broken/invisible: Citizen, MinervaNeue, MonoBook. —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 21:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::What do you think of moving the template out of the topicon entirely and just placing it in a div? It would take up a (hopefully) small amount of vertical space in the article. [[User:Lethosor/Sandbox/Quality_test]] is an example. Unfortunately it isn't possible to prevent other templates from displaying above the quality this way ([https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User:Lethosor/Sandbox/Quality_test&oldid=283883]). So maybe we do need some custom CSS after all if we want that. I'm open to trying out whatever you propose. I'm a bit worried about future-proofing against skins we add later (particularly a mobile skin) but at least MediaWiki supports skin-specific global CSS as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:33, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::I would rather we avoid taking any more vertical space in the article. The growing block pyramid at the top, starting with version template, is annoying. If you end up placing it inside the article space please use a slim box 100% wide that would include both.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 01:19, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::Agreed with you Jan, however I see that as two different tasks (ArticleVersion template changes, getting quality back on pages). I made a test adjustment to the quality and it takes up a negligable amount of extra space. See [[User:Vallode/sandbox#Page_quality]] for the example, we'd be able to completely remove "topicon" (unless it is used somewhere else?) and then potentially move on to making the ArticleVersion template into a slim version on the left-hand-side instead of a large box? Let me know what you think. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:35, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

It appears some pages are redirecting recursively and never resolving correctly, like the [[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Character_table&redirect=no|character table]] and [[tileset repository]] 07:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
: Indeed, these can be caught here: [[Special:DoubleRedirects]] --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

It might be useful to change the notice title to "release information '''for editors'''" --[[Special:Contributions/142.59.195.176|142.59.195.176]] 10:26, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Can do. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::New here, hello. Should we set a date where we remove/only show the banner for logged in users. There are (some) pages that have 4 different notices about the upgrade. [[Engraving]] is one such page, the top banner states "information for editors", we then have the "this page was migrated" banner, a version selection which warns the article might be inaccurate, and a smaller banner saying the page might need to be updated. Quite a lot of screen space, I think we can start to slowly reduce the amount of warnings this coming month? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 10:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Unfortunately, only showing info to logged-in users is difficult with how MediaWiki caching works. In terms of reducing warnings, there is a discussion [[Template_talk:ArticleVersion#.22Note_that_some_content_may_still_need_to_be_updated..22|here]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:43, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::As for [[Engraving]] specifically, the {{tl|old}} banner was actually present on [[DF2014:Engraving]] as well and got carried over with the migration. I removed it, and agree that it was redundant. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:46, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Main talkpages seem to redirect to DF2014 talk. Not sure if it is intentional but I like it, though we should pay attention when creating new discussion relating to v50 ending up there.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 14:18, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:That's unintentional. I specifically wrote the migration script to not move talk pages, but that has the side-effect of leaving any previously-created "Talk -> DF2014 talk" redirects intact. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Yo Lethosor, are we adding graphic sprites for the pages in some way? Or are we waiting for you to add some sort of new template or something? I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that the current templates don't allow that. Not sure if I'm allowed to change/create any templates either, as I don't want to break things for hundreds of pages. Edit: And IF the icons are allowed, should they be left alone, or 2×-3× sized like how the Minecraft wiki does it? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 14:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Depends on which templates you mean. There are copyright concerns with uploading a premium sprite sheet, for instance. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm not talking about uploading an entire sprite sheet. I'm just talking about individual icons for each respective page. One image for cows, one for horses, one for werebeasts, etc. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 16:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::If we do that for every creature in the sprite sheet, that's not much different (in terms of copyright) from uploading the entire sprite sheet. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:09, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::Is there someone we can talk to about that? We finally get this new game with graphics, and then we can't use the very graphics of the game? No matter what the rules are, I'd say that would be the stupidest thing ever. I know I'm infamous here when it comes to copyright and images and stuff, but about 80% of game wikis out there are completely unofficial, and use game file images like no one's business. I can't imagine anyone's door being knocked on if we used the game's sprites, but I won't add any here until we have a go-ahead. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 17:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::...I've made noise in Mayday's direction on this matter, at least (prob an incorrect maneuver, ''but'').[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 17:55, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: I hope some sort of arrangement can be made so we can use the new sprites with permission/limits, just as we are using the raw files. Otherwise we are all (devs and editors alike) shooting ourselves in the foot here.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::I just thought of something. We're supposedly not allowed to upload entire sprite sheets, right? What if - for the time being - we just use a few of them for the purpose of testing out new infoboxes? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 21:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::I don't know. If someone could ask Kitfox and post the response here, that would be great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::::I've reached out to Alexandra, but she hasn't answered yet. Until then I found these old approvals from the previous community manager, Feeona: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8243633#msg8243633 link1], [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=176640.msg8243642#msg8243642 link2]). Waiting for a newer response until we begin mass uploads is probably the politer option, but like Zippy said, it is also standard for wikis to use game sprites with less approval. I second their idea of trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. On the extreme off-chance (and I do think it is) Kitfox protests we can always remove these few. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:19, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::And here is a third, more official statement: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8249718#msg8249718 link3]). Perhaps that address of info@kitfoxgames.com is the better channel to ask for a confirmation, rather than Discord DMs, but I will be going to bed, so it is best if someone else does that. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::Thanks for tracking this down! Ok, sprites should be fine, but let's avoid uploading the entire premium tileset as a single image, for instance (as the forum thread says, "use common sense"). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::: Looks good, permission is always preferable over fairuse, I think it is a win win for all involved. I agree that we shouldn't upload entire sprite sheets (e.g. there is no reason to upload the windmill from every direction or whole construction phase for workshops) and that there are a lot of details that needs to be ironed out through testing. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 05:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::We have a green light on uploading all and any sprites. Their response to me can be seen [https://i.imgur.com/BhmHjzC.png here]. I'm sure someone else confirmed it before me. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:00, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Shifting temporarily to a new issue, is the documentation of [[Template:ArticleVersion]] outdated? It would seem so to me, since the current version no longer has its own namespace, with the templates needing updating being different ones. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 18:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:I think it is still accurate enough. We left open the possibility of making another namespace in the future, albeit with a different migration strategy - see [[#v50 organization|above]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Some Changes to infoboxes might be needed. Too bad [[User:Doorkeeper]] isn't around. He did a great work with navbox project--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:52, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

I just realized that raw files aren't stored as regular wiki pages but loaded via the DFRawFunctions extension (hence the need to update). Good news it's going to be handled in bulk, consistently and relatively easy to updated. Even better it's Lethosor problem ;) Also I just realized that all the "raw files" (txt files in the new vanilla folder) are released into the public domain. Both are probably not news to the vets but I'll leave it here for those who less up to date like myself. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:35, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: I noticed that some templates aren't working properly in the new namespace, e.g. [[Basalt]] entry had its raw updated manually but the infobox fail to show any details. Cursory look suggest {{t|layerlookup/0}} need a minor tweak. This should do the work
:: Replace: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
:: With___: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{</nowiki>:<nowiki>{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
: Not sure what the plan and ETA with raws update so I didn't touch this high usage template for now. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 08:11, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

::Please do feel free to make this update. I am still working on a script to create the <code>/raw</code> pages themselves. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be an idea to add to the Sitenotice to remove the {{tl|migrated article}} tag when an article has been fully updated? I see many articles that seem to be updated still have the tag. And/or advise to make use of the {{tl|verify}} for sections still in need of checking? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 10:12, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:Probably a good shout. The "see this page" link does include the detail on removing but we should more explicitly encourage removing the banner once a page has at least been looked over. [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:01, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

== v50 specific issues ==
=== Graphics===
Follow up on the use of game sprites and the need to trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. First sprite [[:File:Beds v50.png]] was uploaded and used on [[Bed]] entry. Any thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Seems like it should be rearranged to be horizontal. Also, has there been a serious discussion about copyright? Full screenshots are 100% fine, but you start going into a grey area when you upload pieces of a spritesheet. I'm of the opinion that it's all fine as long as it's inconvenient to reconstruct the full sheet from the individual images. Maybe a further restriction could be you shouldn't upload any of the art unless it's used in an infobox (maybe an exception for pieces of the UI). And one more restriction could be you shouldn't show everything, like in your bed example, maybe just the wooden bed is good enough, leave out the stone and metal, especially since those can only be made from strange moods. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:43, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::Actually, your bed image is kinda bad for showing off what a bed looks like because it doesn't show the pillow/blankets. That might point to cropped screenshots being the best path, although less convenient for the uploader, as you don't get details left out. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:46, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::I created a new license template [[Template:Copyright game]], based it on the way the RimWorld wiki does things. Call it a prototype, but it's probably how your bed image should be labelled. Indeed, I added it to it already. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]])

::: I agree that the horizontal arrangement would suit better here and that we should strive to represent how things look in-game. Otherwise, I am not too concerned about people being able to reconstruct anything (lets just say that ''anyone'' interested in that can get the real thing from the game files), also it seem we have permission to use the sprits on top of fairuse. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 19:55, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

::: Modifying the existing template to allow the inclusion of the new sprites is easy (Something like [https://ibb.co/zFXCrjd this]?) The big question is the matter of consistency is there any exceptions that will break the format (size wise with variant bloat for example), the sprite naming format, etc --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:44, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::: If we are going to show a variant for each material type, then maybe these should be added as separate images so we can add a tooltip for each image. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:49, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

:I've got another prototype going here and here: [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]] and [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox]]. (You'll need to add the css stuff to your own /vector.css). Basically it's a way to recolor images using css classes. No idea if there's a better way. Also, the real implementation would require a change to [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Should mention, there ''is'' a different way, just upload each image 16 times, one for each coloring. But maybe that's not very elegant. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:45, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

: It should be noted that soon the classic edition will be released, hence one should plan to have both the Premium and classic alongside in that little space --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:14, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm looking into a tab extension to potentially support this in infoboxes. Perhaps [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Tabs Extension:Tabs]? I tried [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TabberNeue Extension:TabberNeue], but it displays a placeholder if JavaScript is disabled, which isn't great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: The Neue Tabber seem to works pretty much like the old one (which fandom [https://coding-help.fandom.com/wiki/Tabber#Adding_images_into_tabbers still use]) defaulting to showing the first tab only. Quick look suggest that neue work the same, plus the notice that 'Tabber requires Javascript to function' warning? if so, and if it is a bother, then you should be able to edit out the tabberneue-noscript string in code. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:29, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: I much prefer your tabber solution, but if that fails we can also use the gallery slideshow mode. If so, beware it has no way to control image size so the images have to be maliciously uploaded using the exact same size. example:
<gallery mode="slideshow">
File:SteelSample.png
File:TinSample.png
File:ZincSample.png
File:GoldSample.png
</gallery> --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

==== adding premium set to Infobox ====
I am unclear where are we going with this? 
1) Will (A) tabs be implemented, (B) we be using mediawiki toggle [[Template_talk:V50_workshop|example]] for premium and classic/blocked, (c) put images side by side, or (d) something else? 
2) Also [[silver]] and [[Pig iron]] use very different image style for example. 
3) Anything else you want ? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

: Personally, I would love tabs to be implemented, but I think that side by side might be best for most. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
: Here is rough layout we can use. It should fit most buildings given the default sprite size. There is also a different floor plan for both (inspired by reddit)

{|
|- valign=top
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 5×5
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>
|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|colspan=2|<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">
[[File:Siege workshop.png|center|160px]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab"">
{|
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%; font-size: 125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Siege workshop}}</center>
|style="line-height: 1em; font-size: 125%;"|
{| style="border-spacing:4px;"
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 3×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|colspan=2 style="text-align: right;"|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="float:left; border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%;"|
<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">[[File:Carpenter's workshop.png]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab""><center>
{| style="font-size: 175%; border-spacing: 0; background-color: black; border: 2px solid black"
|- 
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|"|7:0:0}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|{{=}}|6:0:0}}
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|]|0:0:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
|}</center></div>
|
{| style="border-spacing:5px;"
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×1
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:Screw_press.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Screw press}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Screw press}}</center>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:water_wheel.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Water wheel}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;line-height:normal;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Water wheel}}</center>
|}
|}
:Any thoughts on the direction and or any and all of its elements? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:16, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

::I kind of like side-by-side, if it fits. If anyone wants to implement a toggle button or tabs, I would ask that that be implemented in a template for now, so that e.g. we could change a toggle button to tabs in a single place if we decide to install an extension to support that. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

::: I noticed a comment saying that [[impassable tile]] are no longer used in v50, is that true for all constructions? If so, floor plans are no longer needed, making things much easier as we can fit everything in except the 5v5 constructions like trade depot (and even these can be placed one above the other if so desired). If not, any thought on the alternative floor plan design? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

:::: None of the constructions have blocking tiles any more from my experience playing. I haven't tested siege weaponry with that stuff, but none of the workshops have it, nor does any furniture. (walls and fortifications will of course obstruct movement [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 18:47, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
::::: Ok, I have removed them from v50. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I have added a basic side by side variant to [[Template:V50 workshop]] and [[Template:Building]] for testing, let us know if there any issues. Few notes:
* The default image naming scheme of <code>workshop-name.png</code> will likely conflict with existing images here or on commons, maybe another naming scheme should be used like <code>v50 workshop-name.png</code> as it is with ascii pictures.
* There is inconsistency in image size. If you want to use large zoomed images then toggle is best, otherwise they need to be all in native size (96px for 3x3).
* In the current version the code roughly centers the images and if there is a big image like with [[Siege workshop]] it drops to a new line --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

How about combining shortcut keys and the new menu icons:
<div style="color:white; font-size: large; text-shadow: -1px -1px 0 #000, 1px -1px 0 #000, -1px 1px 0 #000, 1px 1px 0 #000;">[[File:Ui b.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">b</div>[[File:Ui bo.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">o</div>[[File:Ui bol.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div>[[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div></div>
--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 02:24, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

:I worry that this is difficult to read (I read it as "boil" at first). I would rather use something like {{tl|k}} with a known background. What about something like this? [[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:0px;">{{k|l}}</div> or, alternatively, using flexbox without any overlap: [[File:Ui boll.png]]{{k|l}} —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:37, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Same, but that is the best I came up with. We can use the key or maybe someone can help improve the design. Also 'l' is hard to read even with {{t|key}}.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:05, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: I added a {{t|Menu icon}} to start things so others can have a go with it. Also any thoughts on the icon naming convention (their shortcut sequence), is there easier/better way? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:36, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::[[User:BarelyCreative]] updated the template: {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y}}. I think it looks good, thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::I like that, yeah. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::There were some places where it didn't make sense so display every icon all the time (like step-by-step guides), so I changed it slightly to allow display of fewer icons using "num" and counting from the end: <nowiki>{{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-;|num=2}}</nowiki> {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-|num=2}} [[User:BarelyCreative|BarelyCreative]] ([[User talk:BarelyCreative|talk]]) 09:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

==== Bizarre palette-swapping idea/prototype ====
No idea if this is a good idea, since it takes a bit of time to set up, and there might be some performance issues... and maybe display issues?

But take a look at this:
{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=amber}}

It's way to swap palettes on an image, although the image itself is a table, with each cell representing a pixel. The template itself looks like this:
<code><nowiki>{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=saffron}}</nowiki></code>
Input the pattern and desired palette name.

I've got a larger showcase here: [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase]]. Only did a rock pattern so far, but all palettes are implemented.
The major use for this would be on each stone, metal, wood, etc. type's page. The palette could be read directly from the raws. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 03:22, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

:From a technical perspective, my primary concern is indeed performance. Both on the server side and client side, a large number of tables that large (in terms of markup and cell count, that is) tend to be resource-intensive to generate and render. I saw your image-filtering experiments on [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]], and while that strikes me as a newer and less-backwards-compatible approach, it would probably be more resource-friendly.
:Is this color adjustment something the game is doing natively? i.e. does this accurately match what the game displays? I bet we could slap together an image-filtering extension (or find an existing one?) that can do this if needed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::Yeah that's what I suspected. The images the template creates are spot on, checked it against a screenshot I took of some mica rocks in-game. The css stuff is unfortunately totally incorrect, was cool to learn about it though, so not a complete waste of my time :p. The premium, in-game graphics are true sprites, basically patterns of indexed colors. Each of the in-game colors (which are significantly expanded over the 16 ascii colors, there's 116/117) there is a palette defined in "\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_descriptors_graphics\graphics\images\palettes.png". Each indexed color of the sprite is swapped for the corresponding color in the palette. Because of that, the css stuff doesn't work since it's doing the hue/saturation/brightness changes to the entire sprite.
::I've looked into an existing mediawiki extension, couldn't find anything. One thing I did't really look at is some type of lua script/module that would basically emulate what the game is doing. So some function that takes in the base image as well as the desired palette, and based on that finds and replaces each color. No idea what mediawiki's capabilities are on that front. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 05:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
:::We do have Scribunto installed now, so it's totally possible to do something in Lua too - forgot about that. I can add you to the group that grants access to edit the Module namespace if you want to give that a shot. If we use an extension, we'd probably need a custom one, similar to DFDiagram (or perhaps DFDiagram could be extended - it's in dire need of a rewrite anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:43, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::::I asked around on the mediawiki irc, I think scribunto/lua is a deadend, at least for taking an uploaded image and doing stuff to it with a lua script. However I did come up with this even more bizarre solution, using block elements. [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase2]], maybe less resource intensive? Definitely displays a lot worse though, probably unusable.
::::{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock2|palette-name=saffron}}
::::I dunno, maybe none of this is worth it and we should just write some external program to put all the images together offline, and then just mass upload. It wouldn't be ''that'' many... [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 06:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

====Is there an easy way to just paste images from the clipboard?====

I use KDE spectacle to take screenshots straight to the clipboard (after cropping) -- is there an easy way to just paste (and auto-upload) an image into an article? It would make it a lot easier to contribute images. [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:35, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Unfortunately there is not. I would be open to a MediaWiki extension to support this if someone finds one. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Looks like this could do it, but I haven't used it before: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SimpleBatchUpload [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 19:41, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

====Standards for adding graphical version screenshots and images====

Hello, new user looking into adding imagery from the new version. Is there a standard for quality of new screenshots or images? I noticed that at a certain zoom level (2 zooms in from the furthest zoomed-out view), the graphics appear crisp and 1:1 pixel scaled, and I would propose that all images be taken at this scale whenever possible. If they need to be displayed larger, they should be nearest neighbor scaled in a photo editing program at 100% increments (Microsoft Paint will do this if you first select the image rather than directly scaling the whole canvas). I would also propose that images should be cropped to conform to the 32x32 pixel grid when possible, though this could be problematic with so many new graphical elements exceeding the bounds of their tiles. I would say the best practice for capturing artwork for items, furniture etc. ought to be done in a 3x3 open area to avoid shadows from nearby walls, or else extracted from the raw files (if this doesn't run afoul of being able to re-create the graphical version using those assets).

I know that perfect is the enemy of good, and any documentation is better than none, but just thought I'd ask about this, and see if/where something like this ought to be posted. [[User:Unclesporky|Unclesporky]] ([[User talk:Unclesporky|talk]]) 13:58, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:It has been stated in [[Template:V50 workshop]] that <q>screenshots should be at the "native" resolution</q> but someone could edit the [[Screenshot]] page for best practice for the steam version. Or post some examples in [[Talk:Screenshot]] to find out what is best? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:21, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

====How would I/should I go about putting creature sprites on their pages?====

Howdy. New player and wiki user here. I wanted to try and help update the wiki to the Steam release of DF, so I figured I'd chip in by putting each creature's sprites on their respective page, since I'll often look up a creature I have yet to see in game only to be met by a blue J, or whatever. I found all of the game's creature sprites in C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_creatures_graphics\graphics\images, so I figured I could just chop those up in Photoshop and stick them on here no problem, but the programming syntax/whatever it is on this site is incredibly confusing, I don't know how I'd actually go about doing it. I figured I'd just find the spot on the page where the little letter is and replace that with the image code, but it seems the pages are built using heavily nested templates that I can't even begin to understand. Any help?--[[User:Treese|Treese]] ([[User talk:Treese|talk]]) 03:07, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:Based on [[User:Zippy|Zippy]]'s work at {{tl|Creaturelookup_b}}, I added an "image" parameter to {{tl|creaturelookup/0}}, which is what creature pages should all be using. See [[Dwarf]] and [[Cow]] for examples. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:37, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Hotkeys/Menu navigation ===
Most key bindings and menus have changed. Should the article reflect a) only the old version, b) only the GUI version or c) both? For example, [[Bridge|bridges]] used to be built via {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}, but now it's in Place strucutures {{k|b}} -> Constructions {{k|n}} -> Bridge {{k|b}}. What should be written in the article? Currently, it's {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}. I ''think'' it should be only b), but I am not sure if there will be differences regarding hotkeys or menus between the premium version and the free version and then, c) would be the most appropriate option. --[[User:Prometherus|Prometherus]] ([[User talk:Prometherus|talk]]) 10:16, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: Not sure. I wish the classic release soon --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 16:45, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: Are you Toady's herald? Looks like it was just released! [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:18, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: And our questions are answered, the old hotkeys seem to have been thrown out. Part of me is disappointed (useless muscle memory) but also relieved (unified UI for both versions is good in general and for the wiki). [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:25, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: According to info, in a sort of 'demo version' at that. I'll wait a little while longer, for myself.[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::::It's unlikely that keybindings in it will change significantly. My vote is that we should include information for both premium and classic, everywhere. Hopefully the keybindings are not different between versions. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:26, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::Shouldn't it be based on the 50 or what verion the article is written for? [[User:Dominick|Dominick]] [[User_talk:dominick|(TALK)]] 18:42, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::: The keybindings seem to be consistent between versions, (haven't checked exhausitvely, but since the menu layout is the same I think it is a good assumption). Should also keep in mind/consider that not all actions have keybindings. An option would be write 'Click on the <Example Text> icon or press {{k|E}}' [[User:Koos|Koos]] ([[User talk:Koos|talk]]) 23:14, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

=== Removed features & concepts ===

Since they're removed concepts, I've set [[Room]] to be a redirect for [[DF2014:Room]] and created [[Template:Activity zones]] for the nav bar bedrooms, etc, and made the necessary changes to [[Bedroom]] for it. Is this the correct approach, before I go on much further? (also a note, if it is, then [[Template:v50_rooms]] probably needs to be deleted) I also imagine that considering the number of changes in the interface, that things like [[Adventure mode]] and related pages might best be truncated to "not in 50.03" and when it does make it across, being more deliberately brought over in pieces? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 06:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:Usually it is marked with [[Template:Removed_feature]]. For example: [[Dipscript]] or [[Party]]. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:45, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:: Ah, that's fair. Should that be mentioned in [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Versions#Redirects]]? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 10:03, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::I think the redirect policy mostly had in mind things that were removed a ''long'' time ago, like [[Tax collector]] and [[Economy]] (and the latter actually has a stub page as well). I guess we could clarify. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:34, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: The "current" redirects also cause the version box to incorrectly show that the current version has a page - e.g. [[23a:Cave_river]] shows a v50.04 version, but it's just a redirect back to that version. Similarly, what should happen to redirects like [[Clothes maker]], where a concept has evolved? It currently goes to [[23a:Clothes maker]] - that's correct if the user is trying to look up a very old concept, but if a new user is looking for "how to make clothes", they should be directed to [[Clothier]]. --[[User:Danny252|Danny252]] ([[User talk:Danny252|talk]]) 12:16, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: One should be careful with cv redirects. Most that were recently adjusted were unused plural forms (that should probably be deleted) but few like [[Crown]] needed that for backward compatibility. Removing the [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&type=revision&diff=279966&oldid=219482 cv part] means the the link on [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is now broken. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 22:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::If [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is about v0.31, it should not be using "main:" in its links - ''all'' of those links are going to pages about v50, not v0.31, regardless of whether the target is a redirect or not. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:37, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: You right, I removed it. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 17:55, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Crown cv redir issue is now fixed, I believe. As goes with such cases where one can simply revert the troublesome edit, unless I've mistepped, myself? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 23:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:Both [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=280026] and [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=279966] should not have had any effect, because "cv" is an alias to the main namespace now, just like "main". Proof: [[Crown]], [[cv:Crown]], [[main:Crown]]. It's possible caching is coming into play here, although I purged the redirect cache after making that alias change earlier this month... —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:02, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

I think there have been some changes not captured, but as a newb, I'm afraid to edit the page(s). A good example is Strawberry. I'm playing the Steam version right now and Strawberry plants are "not relevant to brewing" in Labor > kitchen > veg / fruit / leaves. Unless I'm mistaken and need to process them? Another example is the trade caravan = it seems the 3 square pathing no longer happens; it's just yak(s). 12:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC) 12:29, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
:Strawberries should be brewable according to the Raws.
:Trade wagons has been modified in v50. The first wagons will arrive at the same time your fort is becoming a barony. Until then, it's only pack animals and stairs are indeed fine. The [[Trading]] page needs a huge rework anyway... I'll try to do that next week. --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

<s>As far as I can tell, none of the workshop buildings in v50 have blocking tiles any more. There's a comment to the like in data/vanilla/vanilla_buildings/objects/building_custom.txt that says this "[BLOCK:1:0:0:0] workbenches no longer block". Hesitant to update that template as I'm not sure if it's referenced for all of the old versions too. </s> [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 05:54, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
: A new template has been created: {{tl|V50 workshop}} --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::Thanks! In general, I would like to delegate the switching responsibility to the template (like how {{tl|creaturelookup/0}} works), but in cases where the parameters diverge significantly like with workshops, it could make sense to make an entirely new template. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

=== creature infobox prototype (moved) ===

Check it out, I made a temporary template and added it to the [[cow]]s page. Now it shows the sprites (but not the zombified versions yet). I wanted to show everyone a prototype of what v50 creature infoboxes should look like. Or at least something similar to it. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:11, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
:Hi, I'm new to editing wikis but I have done a bit of work with sprite sheets and I've been going through the DF data files to find the different graphics hoping to help with the animal pages. I've thrown together a template with grass and a few nature sprites (plants, a tree, and a rock) for size reference but I'm unsure how large the 'display' tiles in the middle of the template should be to suit all animals. I can see in the sprite sheets that some land animals have an adult and child sprite, so two tiles. Others have a male, female, and child, but after seeing you include the zombie cows I'm unsure if I should make it twice the size to add them too. Alternatively, I could grab some tiles from the haunted biomes for the zombie animals and make a separate template for a side-by-side comparison. Either way, let me know if this helps. I'd like to help with other graphics too as we add the premium tilesets but the animals seemed the easiest to tackle with me being new to wiki editing. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::@Zippy, I am a bit perplexed about the purple cows. Why do we need a zombified version of creatures on every page?
::@UristTheSeventh, we can use all the help. Maybe post an example, so that we can have something to compare and contrast.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::@Jan Here are the examples:
:::[[File:Creature template.png]] [[File:Armadillo.png]] [[File:Seagull.png]]
:::It'll need to be wider or arranged differently for different creatures with more that two sprites or for multi-tile creatures. I can also do an aquatic and air themed template for swimming and flying creatures. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::::Looks nice, like the metal template. There are several people working on updating the graphics you should talk more among yourselves. Best I can offer is that I width wise I am hoping to go up to 200px for infoboxes.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 01:13, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

=== When do we remove the migration note on specific pages? ===

At what point can we remove the "this page was auto migrated from v47" warning? There are a bunch of small pages that are more or less accurate, if I've reviewed them, can I go ahead and remove the warning? [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Yes, feel free to remove it if you think all content is accurate. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Any info on fixing "creature description not found?" ===

I see this issue on most creature pages, it seems to be due to a lookup that's not currently functioning? Cows interestingly doesn't have this issue but I couldn't figure out how to recreate whatever fix it's editor did. --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 00:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:That is the missing raws issue described above. Cow was fixed by the addition of [[cow/raw]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:28, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::Ah makes sense, not fully used to the language of wikis yet so I read over it while looking. To put this bit of questioning to rest for any future readers, is it correct that it's fine to update any raws manually, though it will be done automatically at some point? --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 07:48, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Yes. I'm circling back to work on a script right now, so not much point in doing it if you're reading this. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::This should be fixed now. If you continue to see pages with problems, you can try [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Purge purging the cache]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:59, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Adventurer Mode related sections ===

The topic has already been discussed [[#Removed features & concepts|above]], but I don't see a clear line on what to do with article sections that mention Adventurer Mode. Like for example in [[Butcher#Adventurer_mode|Butcher]].

'''a) Truncate''' or '''b) leave in place with a mention''' that the mode is not yet present IG but will be added in a future update?

Personally I think option b) is better, because I think it's silly to undo some work just to reintroduce it a few weeks later, with the necessary corrections. Even if a copy/paste of a previous version takes ~15 seconds, considering the number of articles that need to be corrected, it would be a bit of a waste of time.--[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

== Toggleable image ==

Any objections/comments to using this template for now for toggling between classic and premium images? I'd probably rename it to "Template:Premium-classic thumb image". I'm sure someone can come up with a better UI eventually, but should be easy to migrate at that point. I also think we should use the same customtoggle class for this and for the infobox. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 23:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png
}}

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png|
caption=My caption|
width=100px
}}

:This looks nice to me! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

: Good initiative. From the top of my head:
:* I suggest using a shorthand, no one wants to type 'Premium-classic thumb image'.
:* If we end up using toggle for infoboxes (not sure where we headed there), then I agree definitely same custom toggle class should be used for all, thus allowing to switch premium-classic view on the whole page at a click.
:* The button part on a separate row isn't pretty, creating a lot of dead space that can be used by the text. Are we set on the label 'toggle ascii'? Classic isn't Ascii per se, maybe we can use a 'toggle' with a tooltip {{tooltip|for example|does bla bla bla}}, or maybe we can get rid of the text and have a smaller icon button ([[User:Jan/sandbox#Metal_example|two examples]]).
: I hope that helps. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

:: I added [[Template:Dual image]] with some of your suggestions. Agree that it's not super pretty, feel free to try something different.

::* I put the toggle in the caption mostly because I gave up on trying to make a more sophisticated replacement for the default thumb image behavior, I'm sure someone with better wiki-fu could put together something more intelligent.
::* I cut the text down to just "Toggle"; I think the best solution would be a small graphic showing the old and new dwarf icons with arrows between them. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 19:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

{{Dual image|
premium=File:DFwiki5by53by3farm.png|
classic=File:Quickstart_layout_3.png|
width=100px|
caption=A 5x5 room with a 3x3 farm plot
}}
::: I updated the layout, now it should look just like a regular image thumb. I didn't had time to test it, if it doesn't work for you or you don't like it just revert the last change. cheers. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::::I don't know which part of this talk page to put this, but I added the ability to add icons to the v50 workshops template. Leaving the icon part blank will not break the template in any way. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 09:47, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
{{clear}}
==Creature List Now Supports Graphics!==
I wasn't easy, but I made new templates so the [[Creature]]s page now supports both graphics sprites ''and'' ASCII tiles. Allow me to show you:

{{v50_creaturecurrent_table_head}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:dwarf_sprite.png]]|name=[[Dwarf]]|symbol=☺|color=3:0:0|playable=Fort, Adv|hostile=No|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Mountain halls]], [[Fortress|dwarf fortress]]es, [[hillock]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:elf_sprite.png]]|name=[[Elf]]|symbol=e|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Forest retreat]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:human_sprite.png]]|name=[[Human]]|symbol=U|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=70,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Town]]s and cities|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:goblin_sprite.png]]|name=[[Goblin]]|symbol=g|color=7:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Dark fortress]]es and [[dark pit]]s|note=Snatchers2}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:kobold_sprite.png]]|name=[[Kobold]]|symbol=k|color=6:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=20,000|value=Not tameable|biome=Caves|note=Skulking race}}
|}

Oh wait, there's a bonus. You can also modify the background color of the box the sprites go in. I added that to make possibly-hard-to-see-otherwise sprites more easy to see - depending on the colors it has. Allow me to demonstrate.

{{v50_creaturecurrent_table_head}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:dwarf_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#829ccc|name=[[Dwarf]]|symbol=☺|color=3:0:0|playable=Fort, Adv|hostile=No|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Mountain halls]], [[Fortress|dwarf fortress]]es, [[hillock]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:elf_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#c7dfc0|name=[[Elf]]|symbol=e|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Forest retreat]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:human_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#c7dfc0|name=[[Human]]|symbol=U|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=70,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Town]]s and cities|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:goblin_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#dfc0c0|name=[[Goblin]]|symbol=g|color=7:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Dark fortress]]es and [[dark pit]]s|note=Snatchers2}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:kobold_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#dfc0c0|name=[[Kobold]]|symbol=k|color=6:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=20,000|value=Not tameable|biome=Caves|note=Skulking race}}
|}

To change the background color, add <code><nowiki>|bgcolor=COLOR</nowiki></code> segment after the <code><nowiki>|graphic</nowiki></code> part. You can use color names or HTML hex color codes. I added this to the v50 creatures page, but at this time, I only added the first five creatures I just displayed. It's gonna take a while to find ALL of those creature sprites. I hope a lot of people help out on that one. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 05:29, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

:Thanks, looks nice! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:44, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:Nice stuff, took the quick liberty to change the padding-left -> text-align to make all the sprites center aligned relative to each other :) Sweet work --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:41, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Template:V50 creaturecurrent table row

2023-01-05T17:39:42Z

Vallode: Use text-align center and not hardcoded padding

|-
|style="text-align: center; background: {{{bgcolor}}};"|{{{graphic}}}
|style="font-size:145%;font-weight: bold; font-family: 'Courier New', 'Quicktype Mono', 'Bitstream Vera Sans Mono', 'Lucida Console', 'Lucida Sans Typewriter', monospace; background: black;color:{{fgcolor|{{{color|0:0:0}}}}};text-align:center;"|{{{symbol|}}}
|{{{name|}}}
|{{{playable|}}}
|{{{hostile|}}}
|{{{food|}}}
|{{{size|}}}
|{{{value|}}}
|{{{biome|}}}
|{{{note|}}}

Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions

2023-01-05T17:35:46Z

Vallode:

{{archive|
# [[DF Talk:Versions/Archive 1|Page 1]]}}

== Version 0.31.19 starts a new DF generation? ==

My reading of Toady's comments on the release of 0.31.19 is that it came out basically because he felt it would take too long to get DF all the way to 0.32. With the ore changes, the sitefinder changes, the addition of grazing and several different industries, there's a lot of changes between 31.18 and 31.19. So I'm thinking it might be a good idea to call it the first release of DF2011 - and what we refer to as "DF2010" would then become 0.31.18.

Thoughts? --[[User:DeMatt|DeMatt]] 07:06, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

==Revisiting Redirects==
I wasn't around when the redirect policy was created, and I'm having trouble understanding the rationale. The example claims that linking [[Main:Cheese]] to [[cv:Cheese maker]] is problematic...but mainspace only ever redirects to the current version. If the best target in the current version is cheese maker, why not link to it directly? (It's not, at least for Cheese, since [[DF2012:Cheese]] exists now.) The explanation seems to be claiming that 40d articles that link to Cheese will follow the Mainspace link--but that hasn't been the case for a long while now. Articles in 40d automatically link against other articles in 40d, so that version remains internally consistent no matter where mainspace links to in the current version. For a current example, what do we gain by linking [[Main:Mead]] to [[cv:Mead]] and linking [[DF2012:Mead]] to [[DF2012:Alcohol]]?

If this really is just an outdated procedure, I recommend we drop the mummery and allow mainspace to link to cv:(best target). Double redirects ''may'' work (sometimes, but [[Main:Mead]] demonstrates a common problem where automatic redirection fails), but if they are unnecessary I think they should be avoided, partly because of problems like [[Main:Mead]] and partly because of the effort required to protect double redirects from users who believe they are problematic.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:16, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

:I was just thinking that. I'm currently attempting to write a basic extension to eliminate the need for mainspace redirects entirely, although Mediawiki's class structure may make this more difficult than I had hoped (the only method I've found for resolving redirects takes the ''article text'' instead of a title, e.g. "#REDIRECT ..."). I do agree that the current situation with redirects isn't ideal, so I'm hoping this will work better (once I get it to work). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:42, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Okay, that wasn't quite as clear as I meant it to be. In general, I think this is a tricky situation. Mediawiki wasn't designed to have five content namespaces, and certainly not chains of redirects between them. The problem that was pointed out in the [[DF:REDIR|policy]] is the fact that with:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
pages in the cv: namespace can't use [[<nowiki/>foo]], since the namespace links modification causes it to be treated as [[<nowiki/>cv:foo]] instead, which doesn't exist. The current suggested solution is this:
Main:Foo -> cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
This fixes the problem of [[<nowiki/>foo]] not working on cv pages, but creates issues with double redirects not always working. Another solution, which is more intuitive to new editors, is:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
Both require creating two redirects. The first method has the advantage of ''ensuring'' that the cv redirect exists (otherwise, main:foo would be a redlink), while the second has the advantage of working more reliably in a couple cases.

What I'm trying to do is make main:Foo "jump" to cv:Foo when cv:foo exists, ''even if main:foo doesn't exist'' (basically it would treat all mainspace pages as redirects to cv pages, but only if the cv page exists and not the mainspace page). I had main:Bar jumping to cv:Bar fine, but if cv:Foo redirected to cv:Bar, accessing main:Foo would mysteriously stop at cv:Foo even if I increased the redirect limit. What I'm trying to do now is follow the redirects internally, without relying on Mediawiki to do it automatically - unfortunately, that has proved to be harder than I had hoped (and I sent my web server into an infinite loop while trying). I will try to work on this some more when I get a chance, although I'm not sure when that'll be yet :(. For now, feel free to fix broken double mainspace redirects as necessary, as long as redirects in the DF2012 namespace stay pointing to the right page (and new mainspace redirects get added in the DF2012 namespace too). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

:You're treating cv like a namespace--it's not. It is simply shorthand for "fill in the current version here". [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Briess&diff=182404&oldid=181281 As I discovered a long time ago on a server not far away], linking from Main:Foo to cv:Foo tends to break redirection chains. If, instead of linking to cv:Foo, you link to DF2012:Foo, it might just work. It would, of course, be better if your patch could evaluate cv itself, but even if you have to hardcode the current version it's a single point of maintenance that requires update very infrequently. (For that matter, we could probably dispense with the cv hack entirely and just have a bot update mainspace links from DF2012 to DF201X when we switch to a new version.)--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:05, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
::I know cv isn't a namespace - I was just trying to avoid future confusion when the DF2012 namespace changes. It's interesting that changing "cv" to "DF2012" fixes some broken redirects, although I've found that simply making an edit to a broken redirect can usually fix it as well. I've actually had the most problems with double redirects when the second one (in the DF2012 namespace) doesn't use the DF2012 prefix (e.g. main:Foo containing <nowiki>[[cv:Foo]] and DF2012:Foo containing [[Bar]]</nowiki>). I'd rather keep the cv alias even if it isn't necessary for mainspace redirects when I get the patch to work, since it makes it easier to refer to the current version of the page (for example, several MDF articles contain links to a vanilla page for things that don't change in the mod).
::Also, using aliases like "cv" is supported by Mediawiki; in fact, several WMF wikis use them (for example, "[[wikipedia:WP:Redirects|WP:Redirects]]" on Wikipedia). It's quite likely that Mediawiki isn't processing double redirects using aliases correctly, though, since that's uncommon on most wikis. --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:35, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

In light of the lack of support for the current redirect policy, I propose we replace the current redirect section with:

:Mainspace article pages should use the cv: alias when redirecting to a versioned page, which will automatically update the link when a new version is released. For example, page "Main:Foo" should redirect to page "cv:Bar" (where "Bar" is the page that best describes the topic Foo in the current version).

:Pages in mainspace should only redirect to an older versioned page if that content no longer exists in the current version of the game (e.g. [[Cave river]], [[Chunk]]). In these cases the cv: alias cannot be used.

:Pages inside a versioned namespace should not use the cv: alias. Instead, they should redirect to the best page within that versioned namespace (e.g. [[DF2012:Dodging]], [[v0.31:Drink]]).

:Due to limitations of the wiki software, double redirects should be avoided if possible. When fixing double redirects in mainspace, please make sure to use the cv: alias as appropriate.

If no one objects, I will make this change in a few days.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:21, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

:Okay with me. It may be worth mentioning that double redirects only really need to be changed when they don't work (since changing a lot of redirects that work isn't necessary), but I think it's clearer and more relevant than the current policy. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Done.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:55, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I was finally able to get my extension to work after being motivated by one too many malfunctioning redirects. It now causes nonexistent pages in the main namespace to behave exactly like redirects to their DF2012 counterparts (when linked to, accessed directly, and transcluded). Double redirects also work (up to 100, in fact, although that was a temporary safety measure that I'll probably change). This means we'll be able to safely get rid of all mainspace redirects (redirects that redirect to something other than "cv" will still function if not deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:20, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
:What about articles which don't exist in the current version but do exist in older versions? Will those still need mainspace redirects, or will your extension be able to automatically redirect them to v0.31/40d/23a? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] ([[User talk:Quietust|talk]]) 01:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
::It ignores all mainspace pages that actually have content, including redirects, so pages like [[masons guild]] won't be affected (unless deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:47, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Done and deployed. [[Cat]] is still treated as a redirect, even though I just deleted it (try clicking on the "redirected from" link). Pages that exist are ignored, so [[Masons guild]] and [[History of Dwarf Fortress]] still function normally (as a redirect to a 23a page and a non-redirect, respectively). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm sending around a bot right now to delete all redirects of the format "foo -> cv:foo" (a surprising number don't fit this format, so I'm leaving them alone for now). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:43, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

:I'm confused. Do we use double redirects or not? Is there a single place we define our linking policy (including redirects), and is it updated?
:I had trouble linking to [[Consolidated_development]] in [[v0.34:Dragon]]. It kept pointing to v0.34:Consolidated_development, which does not exist. I ended up linking to Main:Consolidated_development to make it work. --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] ([[User talk:Nahno|talk]]) 10:18, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

::That's a separate problem altogether - links in the versioned namespaces (v0.34, v0.31, 40d, 23a) automatically link to pages within their namespace. I may be able to set up a fallback to mainspace once I'm able to deploy again, but for now the "main:" alias is the intended solution. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 11:36, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

== Google often directs people to the 0.31 page ==

I've noticed a couple of times that finding a wiki page from an external search will often drop me onto a page from an older version. Is it possible to mitigate this somehow for new players? I could imagine something like redirecting old:Bar -> cv:Bar unless the user has come from old:Foo; no idea if that would actually work though. [[User:PeridexisErrant|PeridexisErrant]] ([[User talk:PeridexisErrant|talk]]) 11:48, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

:As a temporary solution, I could write a script that displays a banner of some kind if the user came from an external site. I'll ask Briess if he can do anything on the server level to increase the weighting of the current version's pages. (Obviously there are situations where people are looking for old pages, like [[23a:dungeon master]], so we don't want to disable indexing entirely on old pages.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:03, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

== DF2014? ==

As Toady [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ draws closer to a new release], it might be worthwhile to discuss the addition of a new version to the wiki. The upcoming release covers two years of changes and introduces a number of new plants, foods, drinks, multi-tile trees, climbing, jumping, etc., so it is likely to have significant changes from the current DF2012. To avoid having people start new pages (and lose all the effort spent refining the prior version's page), I think it would be best to have a bot automatically copy over the DF2012 pages as a starting point for DF2014. I would suggest that these copied pages include a noticebox template mentioning that the content may be outdated, so that we can easily track which pages have been reviewed. I think either the {{tl|version check}} or {{tl|old}} template would work. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:43, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

:This is what [[User:QuietBot]] did after the 0.34 release, so it's certainly possible to use the same script to migrate to DF2014. I would like a way of tagging migrated pages, since inaccuracies in some pages went unnoticed for months after they were migrated. Since {{tl|old}} is already in use, {{tl|version check}} may be a better solution (it can be reworded slightly, or we can make a separate template for DF2014 migration). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:23, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
:Made [[Template:DF2014 migrated]] as an example. Any thoughts? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:32, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

== Redirects inconsistency ==

Following a redirect is supposed to be exactly the same as going straight to the page it redirects to, but this actually isn't the case:
* Go to [[Seeds]] and you get [[v0.34:Seed]] (outdated)
* Go to http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Seeds&redirect=no and click on the link and you get to [[DF2014:Seed]] (current)
So if you search for "seed", the top result is the DF2014 version. But search for "seeds" and you get the redirect, which sends you to the outdated page instead. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

While I'm talking about redirects, it seems redirects to sections don't work: see [[DF2014:How do I manage my seeds and crops]]. I know MediaWiki is capable of this trick because Wikipedia does it. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:32, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

:I have absolutely no idea why [[seeds]] redirects to a v0.34 page - it could be a Mediawiki bug. The section links issue is due to a known issue in the redirect extension we use, which has yet to be fixed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:01, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
:It looks like deleting both [[Seeds]] and [[DF2014:Seeds]] fixed things (by allowing AutoRedirect to handle the redirects instead). Feel free to tag any others with {{tl|bad redirect}}. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::It gets stranger. [[Vial]] redirects explicitly to [[cv:Flask]] which displays (when you look at it with &redirect=no) as [[DF2014:Flask]], but still goes to the v0.34 version. It seems redirects interpret the cv: pseudo-namespace (or whatever it's called) in an outdated way. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 18:08, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::I've added a note to this page about this issue. If it gets resolved, the note should be removed. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 21:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

==Reorganizing versions==

The internet deals with moved content... poorly. Google is still linking to v0.34 pages more than a year after the switch to "DF2014", and even the wiki software still has cached links pointing to the old version pages.

I propose reorganizing versions on the wiki to avoid moving content whenever possible. Instead of having a temporary "current version" namespace that changes occasionally, all the current information gets promoted to the Main namespace. When the next version split occurs, the Main articles as of a certain revision number can be copied to the newly-created permanent "old version" namespace, while all the current information remains in Main. This not only fixes the link rot issue, but it has a few other benefits as well: fewer administrative tasks, no lockdown (a historical version of the Main pages can be copied at any point, even if the Main articles are already modified for the new version), almost all the article history is maintained in the Main article (instead of being spread unevenly across multiple versions), no "temporary" namespaces are needed, fewer problematic long redirect chains, and hopefully less user confusion (since Main gets priority in search results, etc.).

As an example, today we would not have a DF2014 namespace (which is good because "temporary" namespaces historically disappear anyway). If you ran a search for [[seed]] you'd end up at Main:seed, which would have all the current information on seeds. The version box at the top of the page would still link to the older versions of the seed article. When a new version is released, an admin would choose a revision number and copy the Main:seed article as it exists at that revision number to v0.40:seed. That's it. One historical copy that needs little to no new editing, and zero redirections/moves.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:02, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

:Makes sense to me. It would involve a lot of work, though (e.g. fixing templates and categories to account for the current version being in mainspace), although that should be doable thanks to {{tl|category}}, {{tl|version switch}}, etc.. A bot could be set up to copy revisions from before a release date as well, which would be more difficult (and maybe slower) than a direct copy, but not severely. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:24, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

:Actually, there are a few issues with that, namely that there wouldn't be an easy way to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned mainspace pages. There are ways to resolve Google search priority (we can exclude pages from older versions from search engine results if there are newer versions of those pages available, for example). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:47, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::There aren't very many non-versioned mainspace pages, and determining if a page is versioned is as simple as looking for the version template and/or categories added by the version template (e.g. copy [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Category:Current this category] instead of Main:*). The problem with "suggesting" newer pages to Google is that they obviously aren't crawling our wiki regularly (if they were, the fact that the mainspace redirects point to new pages would automatically be picked up). Even if your Google hints worked they wouldn't do anything for all the other broken links out on the 'net.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:35, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: Google actually crawls the wiki constantly - we probably get crawl hits from google for a continuous block of 2-3 hours per day, each and every day. Why they are slow to update is beyond me though. I can't remember why we didn't do this initially, but there was a technical limitation involved if I remember correctly. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] ([[User talk:Briess|talk]]) 22:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: There are <meta> tags that can be used to hide pages from search results (for search engines that recognize them, that is). Searching for {{tl|av}} or [[:Category:Current]] might work, although we'd have to make sure all of the DF2014 pages include that (some pages don't, particularly some disambiguation pages, although all of them should). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:53, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

:Is there a particular reason main and current are separate to begin with?—[[User:CLA|CLA]] ([[User talk:CLA|talk]]) 00:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

::It's mostly intended to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned pages and make version-related templates simpler to work with, since every versioned page has a namespace. I wasn't active here in 2010 when this system was created, so Briess and Emi would know more.
::Another issue I just thought of with Loci's suggestion is categories - currently, categories like [[:Category:Animals]] are used to organize the versioned sub-categories. Sure, we can change {{tl|Category}} to categorize mainspace pages in [[:Category:v0.40:Animals]] or [[:Category:DF2014:Animals]], but that would be less straightforward because there wouldn't be a namespace with that name (until pages are migrated when a newer major version is released). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

:Moving current pages to the main namespace sounds like a great idea. -[[User:Jecowa|Jecowa]] ([[User talk:Jecowa|talk]]) 20:47, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Another thought: dealing with migrating redirects could be difficult with this proposal - specifically, determining which redirects should be migrated to a versioned namespace. Redirects can't contain {{tl|av}}, at least not before ``#REDIRECT``. I ''think'' it would be possible to copy pages in two stages, though - all non-redirects first, then all redirects whose targets were also copied. Thoughts? Anything I'm missing? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:41, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Some subpages (particularly /raw and /Edit notice) also deliberately lack {{tl|av}}, although those shouldn't be too hard to handle. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

:Redirect pages (and all other edge cases I've looked at) can be included in categories (like [[:Category:Current]]) to determine whether or not they should be copied into an archival version. But if the redirects are "properly qualified" then they can all be copied over blindly. Mainspace redirects pointing to versioned information should use a blank namespace (which will be automatically constrained to the archival namespace); mainspace redirects pointing to unversioned information should use an explicit "Main" (which will automatically link back to the unversioned page). Then, when [[[[Toady]]]] gets copied to [[[[v0.4x:Toady]]]] it will point back to [[[[Main:Toady One]]]]. Meanwhile, [[[[Beer]]]], copied to [[[[v0.4x:Beer]]]], will properly point to [[[[v0.4x:Alcohol]]]].--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:00, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

::I think qualifying redirects is the best solution here - categorizing redirects manually is another possible source of errors, since categories (or a lack thereof) would only be visible on the redirect page itself, and [[:Category:Current]] is a hidden category. Copying over mainspace redirects into versioned namespaces would also resolve some issues that have come up due to those not reliably existing currently. I should be able to set up a bot script to add "main:" to current mainspace redirects (and it shouldn't break anything, since those redirects go to other mainspace pages anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:57, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

(Note: I wrote all of this without noticing the previous discussion above.) I was wondering, when the wiki creates a new namespace for a major release again, if it is possible to ''not'' create a namespace for the next current version (e.g. "DF202x") and instead have the mainspace articles (which are currently redirects) become the new cv and move the content there. Therefore, [[cv:Cat]] would just be "[[Cat]]" (or [[Main:Cat]]).

Certain namespace-related templates like [[Template:Ns/0]] would need to be changed, though nothing significant as far as I know. For most cases, any "DF2014" would be replaced with "Main" or even blank. There's also multiple extensions handling the current namespace system and they may need to be modified too, though I'm not sure if or how much. I'm guessing based on the discussions above that it will change stuff up.

My reason is the current namespace is increasingly becoming more anachronistic. "DF2014" could be misinterpreted as "this page is about the 2014 version of the game" or "this page was last updated in 2014", which I've seen a few people in forums mention. Granted that [[Template:Av]] is on the top of very article, I still think the namespace is inconsistent with the recentness of the article. But how is this related to what I'm asking for? Let's say we continue the current system: if we happen to do a new namespace change this year and create DF2020, the next major release (after graphics/UI) will be mythgen, which is estimated to take several years to develop (the Big Wait), and so the anachronism will start over again. The proposed way will prevent this from occurring for the next major release and every release thereafter.

I think the confusion with having a namespace that becomes old-fashioned overtime supersedes the confusion with not marking current versioned articles with a namespace. Most users just search "Cat" on the search bar and naturally expect to get information about the latest release of DF. So if users go a page that's just titled "Cat", they won't expect outdated info about cats from a previous release. That's how the current system works anyways. We'll be skipping the two-step process that we have now. It'll make several wiki tasks much simpler as well. Editors can create new articles for current versions without remembering to add a namespace. It'll fix any existing issues with (double) redirects; instead of [[Main:Kitten]] redirecting to [[cv:Kitten]], which goes to [[DF2014:Kitten]], which then redirects to [[DF2014:Cat]], [[Main:Kitten]] would just redirect to [[Main:Cat]]. And the cv: alias will no longer be necessary since "cv:" = "Main:" and will be forever.

There's no need to differentiate the current version and previous versions with a namespace for the current version is what I'm saying. Articles of previous versions will retain their respective namespaces. Users will still type "40d:Cat" to go to the 40d version of the article, but if they want the current version, they'll just type "Cat" (like now). The mainspace containing the "live" version of an article is natural and would create no uncertainty when browsing the wiki. And it would simplify the wiki somewhat and future-proof this anachronism problem. As a bonus, this change will also prevent web search engines from showing previous version pages when typing "DF cat" or something. (This isn't happening right now as DF2014 has been the current namespace for ~6 years, but it'll happen again when everything moves to a new namespace.)

This is the gist of it, and I may have ignored most of the problems with this proposal. I have personally wished for the whole version namespacing be made less complicated and have been seeking for a solution, and I feel like this is the best way to go about in the future. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:27, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:<s>Whoops, looks like Loci already proposed this exact thing long ago. I definitely missed that discussion and should have checked first. My apologies. I'll move my text to that section and remove this one. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:36, 14 August 2020 (UTC)</s> Done. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:40, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:The main issue I have with that is that putting pages about the current version in a namespace also differentiates between those pages and pages not about ''any'' version (for example, [[Toady One]] does not need a 40d or v0.34 page). Yes, we can use {{tl|av}} to mark versioned pages, but people often forget to add that to new pages. The current system also allows determining whether a page is versioned or not from its title, which makes migrations a lot faster. Relying on {{tl|av}} would require either reading the content of every page (which would slow scripts down significantly) or cross-checking with the list of all pages including the template (feasible, but a bit more complicated, and still susceptible to missing templates). I suppose that manually fixing and migrating pages missing {{tl|av}} later wouldn't be too much work, though.
:I am definitely in favor of changing "DF2014" (or a new namespace) to "Current", though. I was in favor of "DF2014" in 2014, but I don't think it makes sense anymore, and "Current" seemed to be a popular alternative in both the DF2012 and DF2014 discussions on the matter. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

== Weird redirect behaviour ==

[[Pump stack]] redirects to [[cv:Screw pump#Pump stack]]. If you look at the redirect itself it says it redirects to DF2014 namespace, which is correct. But if you actually follow the redirect, it goes to v0.34 namespace. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 16:10, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
:Yeah, that's part of the issue described in the above section (the wiki caching part, not on Google's end.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:00, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

== v50 organization ==

Some wiki admins have had a talk on Discord and decided that the most sustainable path forward is to put content for all future versions of DF in the main namespace. We will be working on a bot to do this in the next few days. Feel free to chime in with suggestions here. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

:Is it maybe possible to do backwards-namespacing? Like we have a "Main" namespace, which people are free to update, and whenever there's a new version of DF the "Main" namespace is copied into a namespace for the then old version, much like how you'd branch a stable branch from a development branch when working with a git-project? [[User:Therahedwig|Therahedwig]] ([[User talk:Therahedwig|talk]]) 23:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

::Yeah, we could do that if we decide to. We were talking about doing that for v50, actually, and might still do something similar to preserve edit history if it doesn't end up being too hard to automate. Our hope is that we will not introduce new namespaces for v50 -> v5x, unless there is a serious breaking change (and hopefully there isn't one). But if we change our mind, one advantage of the type of migration you mentioned is that it can be done retroactively - we can copy historical revisions that were current at the time of the release, and would only lose some typo fixes made after the release that apply to earlier versions as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:11, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

ETA is < 24 hours. Doing some final checks on a migration script. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 07:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

: We should really have a task list as there are many things that change and need updating. Including but not limited to:
:* Most templates that used the previous namespace convention broke, including nav templates.
:* Many game files changed locations and their pages need to be updated.
:* Raws need to be updated.
:* Various features added, changed, removed.
:* UI has been changed -- though I am more inclined to wait for classic release to avoid extra work --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

"''Raws need to be updated.''" Including applying text wraparound where necessary, I suppose - more than a few of them have proven to be that special kind of...''difficult'' to navigate otherwise, shall we say? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 12:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:There is already a task list in the [[#v50 migration|section below]] that includes templates and raws, with an explanation. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

== v50 migration ==

The initial migration script is done. New content is in the '''main''' namespace, e.g. [[Cat]]. Old content is still at [[DF2014:Cat]]. History was migrated to the ''new'' (main namespace) articles.

I know several things are broken still. Please reply if you find any others:
<div style="border-left: 2px solid red">
* <s>Versioned templates haven't been migrated yet (e.g. {{tl|vermin}} on [[Ant]])</s>
** Fixed. Most were migrated by a bot.
* <s>Raws are missing on all pages that use them.</s>
** This also affects sidebars, such as on [[Cat]] and [[Microcline]].
** Update: The DFRawFunctions extension has been upgraded to include v50 raws, using the "v50:" prefix for filenames instead of "DF2014:". <s>I haven't finished a migration script to create the /raw pages themselves, but they can typically be created manually by copying the DF2014 /raw pages and changing "DF2014" to "v50" everywhere.</s> —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
** Update 2: Raws have been added for all pages! They were copied from the "DF2014" pages and had "DF2014" replaced with "v50", which appears to have worked from a spot-check, but let me know if you find any problems. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
* Some pages where the DF2014 page was a redirect to a main namespace page that contained content were migrated incorrectly.
** In this case, the main namespace page is usually a redirect to itself. This can be fixed by undoing LethosorBot's edit to the main namespace page, then copying the content to the DF2014 page.
** Update: most seem to have been fixed manually - thanks! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* <s>Some main-namespace talk pages redirect to DF2014 talk pages. Some of these redirects work, and some (usually older ones) do not.</s>
** Fixed with a bot. Some redirects from talk pages to other deleted talk pages are now broken, e.g. [[Talk:Above_ground]] (exists) -> [[Talk:Tile attributes]] (redlink). I am leaving them like that because they redirect to where the talk page should be created, but I'm also fine with people deleting them if they really want to. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* {{tl|quality}} for new articles is disabled (see below)
* Some links from DF2014 to Main weren't working: e.g. the version selector [[DF2014:Mason's workshop]] was linking to [[DF2014:Main:Mason's workshop]] instead of [[Main:Mason's workshop]]. I'm not sure exactly why, but I fixed it with a change to the NamespaceLinks extension. Let me know if you spot similar broken links. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:19, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
</div>

—[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:54, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:The quality levels of the 50.03 pages seem to be missing. I'm not sure if that's covered under that first point. [[User:Trainzack|Trainzack]] ([[User talk:Trainzack|talk]]) 06:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::If the the [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Quality]] feature can be made to work with namespace scheme change, I suggest to automatically assign the lowest quality rating to all pages, alternately add the {{tl|old}} to all pages. Otherwise there will be a lot of pages that will fall through the cracks. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::I disabled {{tl|quality}} in the main namespace because it would require some rework to make the rating script and the template work properly there. Feel free to take a stab at the template. I will see what can be done on the extension side. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::What needs to be done on the template side? I'm not sure I see too big of an issue leaving pages as "unknown-quality" for now (or just change the default to tattered) until we get the rating script working. Is that script up anywhere, anything that could be helped with? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:10, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::They're already marked as unknown. Really the only issue I know of with the template is that it doesn't show up with some of the newer skins we added, and that can be fixed by getting rid of the absolute positioning. As for the script, it can be found at https://github.com/DF-Wiki/QualityRatings, and the issue is really only with the configuration system not recognizing the main namespace as valid. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:29, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::Great, I started having a crack at fixing the template with different themes. Is the preference to get some CSS going and then include it in the global stylesheet (i.e different styles per theme) or to try and get a "one size fits all" fix? —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 08:14, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I would rather avoid custom site-wide CSS if we can. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I appreciate that, I think it's the simplest solution to add a few lines to common.css though. Unless there is a way to attach CSS specifically to a template, I saw a few extensions that allowed that but I'm not sure if any are present in the wiki at the moment. Regardless there already exists a class `div.topicon` that is specifically for the quality ratings, is there an issue with expanding this class to accommodate the themes? The list of themes where the quality rating display is broken/invisible: Citizen, MinervaNeue, MonoBook. —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 21:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::What do you think of moving the template out of the topicon entirely and just placing it in a div? It would take up a (hopefully) small amount of vertical space in the article. [[User:Lethosor/Sandbox/Quality_test]] is an example. Unfortunately it isn't possible to prevent other templates from displaying above the quality this way ([https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User:Lethosor/Sandbox/Quality_test&oldid=283883]). So maybe we do need some custom CSS after all if we want that. I'm open to trying out whatever you propose. I'm a bit worried about future-proofing against skins we add later (particularly a mobile skin) but at least MediaWiki supports skin-specific global CSS as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:33, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::I would rather we avoid taking any more vertical space in the article. The growing block pyramid at the top, starting with version template, is annoying. If you end up placing it inside the article space please use a slim box 100% wide that would include both.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 01:19, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::Agreed with you Jan, however I see that as two different tasks (ArticleVersion template changes, getting quality back on pages). I made a test adjustment to the quality and it takes up a negligable amount of extra space. See [[User:Vallode/sandbox#Page_quality]] for the example, we'd be able to completely remove "topicon" (unless it is used somewhere else?) and then potentially move on to making the ArticleVersion template into a slim version on the left-hand-side instead of a large box? Let me know what you think. --[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 17:35, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

It appears some pages are redirecting recursively and never resolving correctly, like the [[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Character_table&redirect=no|character table]] and [[tileset repository]] 07:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
: Indeed, these can be caught here: [[Special:DoubleRedirects]] --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

It might be useful to change the notice title to "release information '''for editors'''" --[[Special:Contributions/142.59.195.176|142.59.195.176]] 10:26, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Can do. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::New here, hello. Should we set a date where we remove/only show the banner for logged in users. There are (some) pages that have 4 different notices about the upgrade. [[Engraving]] is one such page, the top banner states "information for editors", we then have the "this page was migrated" banner, a version selection which warns the article might be inaccurate, and a smaller banner saying the page might need to be updated. Quite a lot of screen space, I think we can start to slowly reduce the amount of warnings this coming month? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 10:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Unfortunately, only showing info to logged-in users is difficult with how MediaWiki caching works. In terms of reducing warnings, there is a discussion [[Template_talk:ArticleVersion#.22Note_that_some_content_may_still_need_to_be_updated..22|here]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:43, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::As for [[Engraving]] specifically, the {{tl|old}} banner was actually present on [[DF2014:Engraving]] as well and got carried over with the migration. I removed it, and agree that it was redundant. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:46, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Main talkpages seem to redirect to DF2014 talk. Not sure if it is intentional but I like it, though we should pay attention when creating new discussion relating to v50 ending up there.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 14:18, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:That's unintentional. I specifically wrote the migration script to not move talk pages, but that has the side-effect of leaving any previously-created "Talk -> DF2014 talk" redirects intact. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Yo Lethosor, are we adding graphic sprites for the pages in some way? Or are we waiting for you to add some sort of new template or something? I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that the current templates don't allow that. Not sure if I'm allowed to change/create any templates either, as I don't want to break things for hundreds of pages. Edit: And IF the icons are allowed, should they be left alone, or 2×-3× sized like how the Minecraft wiki does it? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 14:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Depends on which templates you mean. There are copyright concerns with uploading a premium sprite sheet, for instance. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm not talking about uploading an entire sprite sheet. I'm just talking about individual icons for each respective page. One image for cows, one for horses, one for werebeasts, etc. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 16:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::If we do that for every creature in the sprite sheet, that's not much different (in terms of copyright) from uploading the entire sprite sheet. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:09, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::Is there someone we can talk to about that? We finally get this new game with graphics, and then we can't use the very graphics of the game? No matter what the rules are, I'd say that would be the stupidest thing ever. I know I'm infamous here when it comes to copyright and images and stuff, but about 80% of game wikis out there are completely unofficial, and use game file images like no one's business. I can't imagine anyone's door being knocked on if we used the game's sprites, but I won't add any here until we have a go-ahead. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 17:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::...I've made noise in Mayday's direction on this matter, at least (prob an incorrect maneuver, ''but'').[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 17:55, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: I hope some sort of arrangement can be made so we can use the new sprites with permission/limits, just as we are using the raw files. Otherwise we are all (devs and editors alike) shooting ourselves in the foot here.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::I just thought of something. We're supposedly not allowed to upload entire sprite sheets, right? What if - for the time being - we just use a few of them for the purpose of testing out new infoboxes? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 21:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::I don't know. If someone could ask Kitfox and post the response here, that would be great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::::I've reached out to Alexandra, but she hasn't answered yet. Until then I found these old approvals from the previous community manager, Feeona: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8243633#msg8243633 link1], [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=176640.msg8243642#msg8243642 link2]). Waiting for a newer response until we begin mass uploads is probably the politer option, but like Zippy said, it is also standard for wikis to use game sprites with less approval. I second their idea of trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. On the extreme off-chance (and I do think it is) Kitfox protests we can always remove these few. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:19, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::And here is a third, more official statement: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8249718#msg8249718 link3]). Perhaps that address of info@kitfoxgames.com is the better channel to ask for a confirmation, rather than Discord DMs, but I will be going to bed, so it is best if someone else does that. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::Thanks for tracking this down! Ok, sprites should be fine, but let's avoid uploading the entire premium tileset as a single image, for instance (as the forum thread says, "use common sense"). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::: Looks good, permission is always preferable over fairuse, I think it is a win win for all involved. I agree that we shouldn't upload entire sprite sheets (e.g. there is no reason to upload the windmill from every direction or whole construction phase for workshops) and that there are a lot of details that needs to be ironed out through testing. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 05:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::We have a green light on uploading all and any sprites. Their response to me can be seen [https://i.imgur.com/BhmHjzC.png here]. I'm sure someone else confirmed it before me. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:00, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Shifting temporarily to a new issue, is the documentation of [[Template:ArticleVersion]] outdated? It would seem so to me, since the current version no longer has its own namespace, with the templates needing updating being different ones. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 18:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:I think it is still accurate enough. We left open the possibility of making another namespace in the future, albeit with a different migration strategy - see [[#v50 organization|above]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Some Changes to infoboxes might be needed. Too bad [[User:Doorkeeper]] isn't around. He did a great work with navbox project--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:52, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

I just realized that raw files aren't stored as regular wiki pages but loaded via the DFRawFunctions extension (hence the need to update). Good news it's going to be handled in bulk, consistently and relatively easy to updated. Even better it's Lethosor problem ;) Also I just realized that all the "raw files" (txt files in the new vanilla folder) are released into the public domain. Both are probably not news to the vets but I'll leave it here for those who less up to date like myself. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:35, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: I noticed that some templates aren't working properly in the new namespace, e.g. [[Basalt]] entry had its raw updated manually but the infobox fail to show any details. Cursory look suggest {{t|layerlookup/0}} need a minor tweak. This should do the work
:: Replace: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
:: With___: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{</nowiki>:<nowiki>{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
: Not sure what the plan and ETA with raws update so I didn't touch this high usage template for now. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 08:11, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

::Please do feel free to make this update. I am still working on a script to create the <code>/raw</code> pages themselves. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be an idea to add to the Sitenotice to remove the {{tl|migrated article}} tag when an article has been fully updated? I see many articles that seem to be updated still have the tag. And/or advise to make use of the {{tl|verify}} for sections still in need of checking? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 10:12, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:Probably a good shout. The "see this page" link does include the detail on removing but we should more explicitly encourage removing the banner once a page has at least been looked over. [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:01, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

== v50 specific issues ==
=== Graphics===
Follow up on the use of game sprites and the need to trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. First sprite [[:File:Beds v50.png]] was uploaded and used on [[Bed]] entry. Any thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Seems like it should be rearranged to be horizontal. Also, has there been a serious discussion about copyright? Full screenshots are 100% fine, but you start going into a grey area when you upload pieces of a spritesheet. I'm of the opinion that it's all fine as long as it's inconvenient to reconstruct the full sheet from the individual images. Maybe a further restriction could be you shouldn't upload any of the art unless it's used in an infobox (maybe an exception for pieces of the UI). And one more restriction could be you shouldn't show everything, like in your bed example, maybe just the wooden bed is good enough, leave out the stone and metal, especially since those can only be made from strange moods. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:43, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::Actually, your bed image is kinda bad for showing off what a bed looks like because it doesn't show the pillow/blankets. That might point to cropped screenshots being the best path, although less convenient for the uploader, as you don't get details left out. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:46, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::I created a new license template [[Template:Copyright game]], based it on the way the RimWorld wiki does things. Call it a prototype, but it's probably how your bed image should be labelled. Indeed, I added it to it already. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]])

::: I agree that the horizontal arrangement would suit better here and that we should strive to represent how things look in-game. Otherwise, I am not too concerned about people being able to reconstruct anything (lets just say that ''anyone'' interested in that can get the real thing from the game files), also it seem we have permission to use the sprits on top of fairuse. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 19:55, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

::: Modifying the existing template to allow the inclusion of the new sprites is easy (Something like [https://ibb.co/zFXCrjd this]?) The big question is the matter of consistency is there any exceptions that will break the format (size wise with variant bloat for example), the sprite naming format, etc --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:44, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::: If we are going to show a variant for each material type, then maybe these should be added as separate images so we can add a tooltip for each image. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:49, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

:I've got another prototype going here and here: [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]] and [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox]]. (You'll need to add the css stuff to your own /vector.css). Basically it's a way to recolor images using css classes. No idea if there's a better way. Also, the real implementation would require a change to [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Should mention, there ''is'' a different way, just upload each image 16 times, one for each coloring. But maybe that's not very elegant. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:45, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

: It should be noted that soon the classic edition will be released, hence one should plan to have both the Premium and classic alongside in that little space --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:14, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm looking into a tab extension to potentially support this in infoboxes. Perhaps [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Tabs Extension:Tabs]? I tried [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TabberNeue Extension:TabberNeue], but it displays a placeholder if JavaScript is disabled, which isn't great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: The Neue Tabber seem to works pretty much like the old one (which fandom [https://coding-help.fandom.com/wiki/Tabber#Adding_images_into_tabbers still use]) defaulting to showing the first tab only. Quick look suggest that neue work the same, plus the notice that 'Tabber requires Javascript to function' warning? if so, and if it is a bother, then you should be able to edit out the tabberneue-noscript string in code. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:29, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: I much prefer your tabber solution, but if that fails we can also use the gallery slideshow mode. If so, beware it has no way to control image size so the images have to be maliciously uploaded using the exact same size. example:
<gallery mode="slideshow">
File:SteelSample.png
File:TinSample.png
File:ZincSample.png
File:GoldSample.png
</gallery> --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

==== adding premium set to Infobox ====
I am unclear where are we going with this? 
1) Will (A) tabs be implemented, (B) we be using mediawiki toggle [[Template_talk:V50_workshop|example]] for premium and classic/blocked, (c) put images side by side, or (d) something else? 
2) Also [[silver]] and [[Pig iron]] use very different image style for example. 
3) Anything else you want ? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

: Personally, I would love tabs to be implemented, but I think that side by side might be best for most. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
: Here is rough layout we can use. It should fit most buildings given the default sprite size. There is also a different floor plan for both (inspired by reddit)

{|
|- valign=top
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 5×5
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>
|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|colspan=2|<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">
[[File:Siege workshop.png|center|160px]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab"">
{|
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%; font-size: 125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Siege workshop}}</center>
|style="line-height: 1em; font-size: 125%;"|
{| style="border-spacing:4px;"
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 3×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|colspan=2 style="text-align: right;"|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="float:left; border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%;"|
<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">[[File:Carpenter's workshop.png]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab""><center>
{| style="font-size: 175%; border-spacing: 0; background-color: black; border: 2px solid black"
|- 
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|"|7:0:0}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|{{=}}|6:0:0}}
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|]|0:0:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
|}</center></div>
|
{| style="border-spacing:5px;"
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×1
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:Screw_press.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Screw press}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Screw press}}</center>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:water_wheel.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Water wheel}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;line-height:normal;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Water wheel}}</center>
|}
|}
:Any thoughts on the direction and or any and all of its elements? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:16, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

::I kind of like side-by-side, if it fits. If anyone wants to implement a toggle button or tabs, I would ask that that be implemented in a template for now, so that e.g. we could change a toggle button to tabs in a single place if we decide to install an extension to support that. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

::: I noticed a comment saying that [[impassable tile]] are no longer used in v50, is that true for all constructions? If so, floor plans are no longer needed, making things much easier as we can fit everything in except the 5v5 constructions like trade depot (and even these can be placed one above the other if so desired). If not, any thought on the alternative floor plan design? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

:::: None of the constructions have blocking tiles any more from my experience playing. I haven't tested siege weaponry with that stuff, but none of the workshops have it, nor does any furniture. (walls and fortifications will of course obstruct movement [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 18:47, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
::::: Ok, I have removed them from v50. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I have added a basic side by side variant to [[Template:V50 workshop]] and [[Template:Building]] for testing, let us know if there any issues. Few notes:
* The default image naming scheme of <code>workshop-name.png</code> will likely conflict with existing images here or on commons, maybe another naming scheme should be used like <code>v50 workshop-name.png</code> as it is with ascii pictures.
* There is inconsistency in image size. If you want to use large zoomed images then toggle is best, otherwise they need to be all in native size (96px for 3x3).
* In the current version the code roughly centers the images and if there is a big image like with [[Siege workshop]] it drops to a new line --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

How about combining shortcut keys and the new menu icons:
<div style="color:white; font-size: large; text-shadow: -1px -1px 0 #000, 1px -1px 0 #000, -1px 1px 0 #000, 1px 1px 0 #000;">[[File:Ui b.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">b</div>[[File:Ui bo.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">o</div>[[File:Ui bol.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div>[[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div></div>
--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 02:24, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

:I worry that this is difficult to read (I read it as "boil" at first). I would rather use something like {{tl|k}} with a known background. What about something like this? [[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:0px;">{{k|l}}</div> or, alternatively, using flexbox without any overlap: [[File:Ui boll.png]]{{k|l}} —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:37, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Same, but that is the best I came up with. We can use the key or maybe someone can help improve the design. Also 'l' is hard to read even with {{t|key}}.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:05, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: I added a {{t|Menu icon}} to start things so others can have a go with it. Also any thoughts on the icon naming convention (their shortcut sequence), is there easier/better way? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:36, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::[[User:BarelyCreative]] updated the template: {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y}}. I think it looks good, thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::I like that, yeah. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::There were some places where it didn't make sense so display every icon all the time (like step-by-step guides), so I changed it slightly to allow display of fewer icons using "num" and counting from the end: <nowiki>{{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-;|num=2}}</nowiki> {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-|num=2}} [[User:BarelyCreative|BarelyCreative]] ([[User talk:BarelyCreative|talk]]) 09:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

==== Bizarre palette-swapping idea/prototype ====
No idea if this is a good idea, since it takes a bit of time to set up, and there might be some performance issues... and maybe display issues?

But take a look at this:
{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=amber}}

It's way to swap palettes on an image, although the image itself is a table, with each cell representing a pixel. The template itself looks like this:
<code><nowiki>{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=saffron}}</nowiki></code>
Input the pattern and desired palette name.

I've got a larger showcase here: [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase]]. Only did a rock pattern so far, but all palettes are implemented.
The major use for this would be on each stone, metal, wood, etc. type's page. The palette could be read directly from the raws. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 03:22, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

:From a technical perspective, my primary concern is indeed performance. Both on the server side and client side, a large number of tables that large (in terms of markup and cell count, that is) tend to be resource-intensive to generate and render. I saw your image-filtering experiments on [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]], and while that strikes me as a newer and less-backwards-compatible approach, it would probably be more resource-friendly.
:Is this color adjustment something the game is doing natively? i.e. does this accurately match what the game displays? I bet we could slap together an image-filtering extension (or find an existing one?) that can do this if needed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::Yeah that's what I suspected. The images the template creates are spot on, checked it against a screenshot I took of some mica rocks in-game. The css stuff is unfortunately totally incorrect, was cool to learn about it though, so not a complete waste of my time :p. The premium, in-game graphics are true sprites, basically patterns of indexed colors. Each of the in-game colors (which are significantly expanded over the 16 ascii colors, there's 116/117) there is a palette defined in "\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_descriptors_graphics\graphics\images\palettes.png". Each indexed color of the sprite is swapped for the corresponding color in the palette. Because of that, the css stuff doesn't work since it's doing the hue/saturation/brightness changes to the entire sprite.
::I've looked into an existing mediawiki extension, couldn't find anything. One thing I did't really look at is some type of lua script/module that would basically emulate what the game is doing. So some function that takes in the base image as well as the desired palette, and based on that finds and replaces each color. No idea what mediawiki's capabilities are on that front. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 05:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
:::We do have Scribunto installed now, so it's totally possible to do something in Lua too - forgot about that. I can add you to the group that grants access to edit the Module namespace if you want to give that a shot. If we use an extension, we'd probably need a custom one, similar to DFDiagram (or perhaps DFDiagram could be extended - it's in dire need of a rewrite anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:43, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::::I asked around on the mediawiki irc, I think scribunto/lua is a deadend, at least for taking an uploaded image and doing stuff to it with a lua script. However I did come up with this even more bizarre solution, using block elements. [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase2]], maybe less resource intensive? Definitely displays a lot worse though, probably unusable.
::::{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock2|palette-name=saffron}}
::::I dunno, maybe none of this is worth it and we should just write some external program to put all the images together offline, and then just mass upload. It wouldn't be ''that'' many... [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 06:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

====Is there an easy way to just paste images from the clipboard?====

I use KDE spectacle to take screenshots straight to the clipboard (after cropping) -- is there an easy way to just paste (and auto-upload) an image into an article? It would make it a lot easier to contribute images. [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:35, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Unfortunately there is not. I would be open to a MediaWiki extension to support this if someone finds one. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Looks like this could do it, but I haven't used it before: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SimpleBatchUpload [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 19:41, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

====Standards for adding graphical version screenshots and images====

Hello, new user looking into adding imagery from the new version. Is there a standard for quality of new screenshots or images? I noticed that at a certain zoom level (2 zooms in from the furthest zoomed-out view), the graphics appear crisp and 1:1 pixel scaled, and I would propose that all images be taken at this scale whenever possible. If they need to be displayed larger, they should be nearest neighbor scaled in a photo editing program at 100% increments (Microsoft Paint will do this if you first select the image rather than directly scaling the whole canvas). I would also propose that images should be cropped to conform to the 32x32 pixel grid when possible, though this could be problematic with so many new graphical elements exceeding the bounds of their tiles. I would say the best practice for capturing artwork for items, furniture etc. ought to be done in a 3x3 open area to avoid shadows from nearby walls, or else extracted from the raw files (if this doesn't run afoul of being able to re-create the graphical version using those assets).

I know that perfect is the enemy of good, and any documentation is better than none, but just thought I'd ask about this, and see if/where something like this ought to be posted. [[User:Unclesporky|Unclesporky]] ([[User talk:Unclesporky|talk]]) 13:58, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:It has been stated in [[Template:V50 workshop]] that <q>screenshots should be at the "native" resolution</q> but someone could edit the [[Screenshot]] page for best practice for the steam version. Or post some examples in [[Talk:Screenshot]] to find out what is best? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:21, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

====How would I/should I go about putting creature sprites on their pages?====

Howdy. New player and wiki user here. I wanted to try and help update the wiki to the Steam release of DF, so I figured I'd chip in by putting each creature's sprites on their respective page, since I'll often look up a creature I have yet to see in game only to be met by a blue J, or whatever. I found all of the game's creature sprites in C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_creatures_graphics\graphics\images, so I figured I could just chop those up in Photoshop and stick them on here no problem, but the programming syntax/whatever it is on this site is incredibly confusing, I don't know how I'd actually go about doing it. I figured I'd just find the spot on the page where the little letter is and replace that with the image code, but it seems the pages are built using heavily nested templates that I can't even begin to understand. Any help?--[[User:Treese|Treese]] ([[User talk:Treese|talk]]) 03:07, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
:Based on [[User:Zippy|Zippy]]'s work at {{tl|Creaturelookup_b}}, I added an "image" parameter to {{tl|creaturelookup/0}}, which is what creature pages should all be using. See [[Dwarf]] and [[Cow]] for examples. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:37, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Hotkeys/Menu navigation ===
Most key bindings and menus have changed. Should the article reflect a) only the old version, b) only the GUI version or c) both? For example, [[Bridge|bridges]] used to be built via {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}, but now it's in Place strucutures {{k|b}} -> Constructions {{k|n}} -> Bridge {{k|b}}. What should be written in the article? Currently, it's {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}. I ''think'' it should be only b), but I am not sure if there will be differences regarding hotkeys or menus between the premium version and the free version and then, c) would be the most appropriate option. --[[User:Prometherus|Prometherus]] ([[User talk:Prometherus|talk]]) 10:16, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: Not sure. I wish the classic release soon --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 16:45, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: Are you Toady's herald? Looks like it was just released! [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:18, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: And our questions are answered, the old hotkeys seem to have been thrown out. Part of me is disappointed (useless muscle memory) but also relieved (unified UI for both versions is good in general and for the wiki). [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:25, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: According to info, in a sort of 'demo version' at that. I'll wait a little while longer, for myself.[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::::It's unlikely that keybindings in it will change significantly. My vote is that we should include information for both premium and classic, everywhere. Hopefully the keybindings are not different between versions. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:26, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::Shouldn't it be based on the 50 or what verion the article is written for? [[User:Dominick|Dominick]] [[User_talk:dominick|(TALK)]] 18:42, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::: The keybindings seem to be consistent between versions, (haven't checked exhausitvely, but since the menu layout is the same I think it is a good assumption). Should also keep in mind/consider that not all actions have keybindings. An option would be write 'Click on the <Example Text> icon or press {{k|E}}' [[User:Koos|Koos]] ([[User talk:Koos|talk]]) 23:14, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

=== Removed features & concepts ===

Since they're removed concepts, I've set [[Room]] to be a redirect for [[DF2014:Room]] and created [[Template:Activity zones]] for the nav bar bedrooms, etc, and made the necessary changes to [[Bedroom]] for it. Is this the correct approach, before I go on much further? (also a note, if it is, then [[Template:v50_rooms]] probably needs to be deleted) I also imagine that considering the number of changes in the interface, that things like [[Adventure mode]] and related pages might best be truncated to "not in 50.03" and when it does make it across, being more deliberately brought over in pieces? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 06:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:Usually it is marked with [[Template:Removed_feature]]. For example: [[Dipscript]] or [[Party]]. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:45, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:: Ah, that's fair. Should that be mentioned in [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Versions#Redirects]]? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 10:03, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::I think the redirect policy mostly had in mind things that were removed a ''long'' time ago, like [[Tax collector]] and [[Economy]] (and the latter actually has a stub page as well). I guess we could clarify. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:34, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: The "current" redirects also cause the version box to incorrectly show that the current version has a page - e.g. [[23a:Cave_river]] shows a v50.04 version, but it's just a redirect back to that version. Similarly, what should happen to redirects like [[Clothes maker]], where a concept has evolved? It currently goes to [[23a:Clothes maker]] - that's correct if the user is trying to look up a very old concept, but if a new user is looking for "how to make clothes", they should be directed to [[Clothier]]. --[[User:Danny252|Danny252]] ([[User talk:Danny252|talk]]) 12:16, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: One should be careful with cv redirects. Most that were recently adjusted were unused plural forms (that should probably be deleted) but few like [[Crown]] needed that for backward compatibility. Removing the [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&type=revision&diff=279966&oldid=219482 cv part] means the the link on [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is now broken. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 22:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::If [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is about v0.31, it should not be using "main:" in its links - ''all'' of those links are going to pages about v50, not v0.31, regardless of whether the target is a redirect or not. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:37, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: You right, I removed it. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 17:55, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Crown cv redir issue is now fixed, I believe. As goes with such cases where one can simply revert the troublesome edit, unless I've mistepped, myself? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 23:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:Both [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=280026] and [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=279966] should not have had any effect, because "cv" is an alias to the main namespace now, just like "main". Proof: [[Crown]], [[cv:Crown]], [[main:Crown]]. It's possible caching is coming into play here, although I purged the redirect cache after making that alias change earlier this month... —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:02, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

I think there have been some changes not captured, but as a newb, I'm afraid to edit the page(s). A good example is Strawberry. I'm playing the Steam version right now and Strawberry plants are "not relevant to brewing" in Labor > kitchen > veg / fruit / leaves. Unless I'm mistaken and need to process them? Another example is the trade caravan = it seems the 3 square pathing no longer happens; it's just yak(s). 12:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC) 12:29, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
:Strawberries should be brewable according to the Raws.
:Trade wagons has been modified in v50. The first wagons will arrive at the same time your fort is becoming a barony. Until then, it's only pack animals and stairs are indeed fine. The [[Trading]] page needs a huge rework anyway... I'll try to do that next week. --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

<s>As far as I can tell, none of the workshop buildings in v50 have blocking tiles any more. There's a comment to the like in data/vanilla/vanilla_buildings/objects/building_custom.txt that says this "[BLOCK:1:0:0:0] workbenches no longer block". Hesitant to update that template as I'm not sure if it's referenced for all of the old versions too. </s> [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 05:54, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
: A new template has been created: {{tl|V50 workshop}} --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::Thanks! In general, I would like to delegate the switching responsibility to the template (like how {{tl|creaturelookup/0}} works), but in cases where the parameters diverge significantly like with workshops, it could make sense to make an entirely new template. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

=== creature infobox prototype (moved) ===

Check it out, I made a temporary template and added it to the [[cow]]s page. Now it shows the sprites (but not the zombified versions yet). I wanted to show everyone a prototype of what v50 creature infoboxes should look like. Or at least something similar to it. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:11, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
:Hi, I'm new to editing wikis but I have done a bit of work with sprite sheets and I've been going through the DF data files to find the different graphics hoping to help with the animal pages. I've thrown together a template with grass and a few nature sprites (plants, a tree, and a rock) for size reference but I'm unsure how large the 'display' tiles in the middle of the template should be to suit all animals. I can see in the sprite sheets that some land animals have an adult and child sprite, so two tiles. Others have a male, female, and child, but after seeing you include the zombie cows I'm unsure if I should make it twice the size to add them too. Alternatively, I could grab some tiles from the haunted biomes for the zombie animals and make a separate template for a side-by-side comparison. Either way, let me know if this helps. I'd like to help with other graphics too as we add the premium tilesets but the animals seemed the easiest to tackle with me being new to wiki editing. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::@Zippy, I am a bit perplexed about the purple cows. Why do we need a zombified version of creatures on every page?
::@UristTheSeventh, we can use all the help. Maybe post an example, so that we can have something to compare and contrast.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::@Jan Here are the examples:
:::[[File:Creature template.png]] [[File:Armadillo.png]] [[File:Seagull.png]]
:::It'll need to be wider or arranged differently for different creatures with more that two sprites or for multi-tile creatures. I can also do an aquatic and air themed template for swimming and flying creatures. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::::Looks nice, like the metal template. There are several people working on updating the graphics you should talk more among yourselves. Best I can offer is that I width wise I am hoping to go up to 200px for infoboxes.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 01:13, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

=== When do we remove the migration note on specific pages? ===

At what point can we remove the "this page was auto migrated from v47" warning? There are a bunch of small pages that are more or less accurate, if I've reviewed them, can I go ahead and remove the warning? [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Yes, feel free to remove it if you think all content is accurate. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Any info on fixing "creature description not found?" ===

I see this issue on most creature pages, it seems to be due to a lookup that's not currently functioning? Cows interestingly doesn't have this issue but I couldn't figure out how to recreate whatever fix it's editor did. --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 00:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:That is the missing raws issue described above. Cow was fixed by the addition of [[cow/raw]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:28, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::Ah makes sense, not fully used to the language of wikis yet so I read over it while looking. To put this bit of questioning to rest for any future readers, is it correct that it's fine to update any raws manually, though it will be done automatically at some point? --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 07:48, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Yes. I'm circling back to work on a script right now, so not much point in doing it if you're reading this. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::This should be fixed now. If you continue to see pages with problems, you can try [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Purge purging the cache]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:59, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Adventurer Mode related sections ===

The topic has already been discussed [[#Removed features & concepts|above]], but I don't see a clear line on what to do with article sections that mention Adventurer Mode. Like for example in [[Butcher#Adventurer_mode|Butcher]].

'''a) Truncate''' or '''b) leave in place with a mention''' that the mode is not yet present IG but will be added in a future update?

Personally I think option b) is better, because I think it's silly to undo some work just to reintroduce it a few weeks later, with the necessary corrections. Even if a copy/paste of a previous version takes ~15 seconds, considering the number of articles that need to be corrected, it would be a bit of a waste of time.--[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

== Toggleable image ==

Any objections/comments to using this template for now for toggling between classic and premium images? I'd probably rename it to "Template:Premium-classic thumb image". I'm sure someone can come up with a better UI eventually, but should be easy to migrate at that point. I also think we should use the same customtoggle class for this and for the infobox. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 23:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png
}}

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png|
caption=My caption|
width=100px
}}

:This looks nice to me! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

: Good initiative. From the top of my head:
:* I suggest using a shorthand, no one wants to type 'Premium-classic thumb image'.
:* If we end up using toggle for infoboxes (not sure where we headed there), then I agree definitely same custom toggle class should be used for all, thus allowing to switch premium-classic view on the whole page at a click.
:* The button part on a separate row isn't pretty, creating a lot of dead space that can be used by the text. Are we set on the label 'toggle ascii'? Classic isn't Ascii per se, maybe we can use a 'toggle' with a tooltip {{tooltip|for example|does bla bla bla}}, or maybe we can get rid of the text and have a smaller icon button ([[User:Jan/sandbox#Metal_example|two examples]]).
: I hope that helps. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

:: I added [[Template:Dual image]] with some of your suggestions. Agree that it's not super pretty, feel free to try something different.

::* I put the toggle in the caption mostly because I gave up on trying to make a more sophisticated replacement for the default thumb image behavior, I'm sure someone with better wiki-fu could put together something more intelligent.
::* I cut the text down to just "Toggle"; I think the best solution would be a small graphic showing the old and new dwarf icons with arrows between them. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 19:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

{{Dual image|
premium=File:DFwiki5by53by3farm.png|
classic=File:Quickstart_layout_3.png|
width=100px|
caption=A 5x5 room with a 3x3 farm plot
}}
::: I updated the layout, now it should look just like a regular image thumb. I didn't had time to test it, if it doesn't work for you or you don't like it just revert the last change. cheers. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::::I don't know which part of this talk page to put this, but I added the ability to add icons to the v50 workshops template. Leaving the icon part blank will not break the template in any way. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 09:47, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
{{clear}}
==Creature List Now Supports Graphics!==
I wasn't easy, but I made new templates so the [[Creature]]s page now supports both graphics sprites ''and'' ASCII tiles. Allow me to show you:

{{v50_creaturecurrent_table_head}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:dwarf_sprite.png]]|name=[[Dwarf]]|symbol=☺|color=3:0:0|playable=Fort, Adv|hostile=No|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Mountain halls]], [[Fortress|dwarf fortress]]es, [[hillock]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:elf_sprite.png]]|name=[[Elf]]|symbol=e|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Forest retreat]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:human_sprite.png]]|name=[[Human]]|symbol=U|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=70,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Town]]s and cities|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:goblin_sprite.png]]|name=[[Goblin]]|symbol=g|color=7:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Dark fortress]]es and [[dark pit]]s|note=Snatchers2}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:kobold_sprite.png]]|name=[[Kobold]]|symbol=k|color=6:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=20,000|value=Not tameable|biome=Caves|note=Skulking race}}
|}

Oh wait, there's a bonus. You can also modify the background color of the box the sprites go in. I added that to make possibly-hard-to-see-otherwise sprites more easy to see - depending on the colors it has. Allow me to demonstrate.

{{v50_creaturecurrent_table_head}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:dwarf_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#829ccc|name=[[Dwarf]]|symbol=☺|color=3:0:0|playable=Fort, Adv|hostile=No|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Mountain halls]], [[Fortress|dwarf fortress]]es, [[hillock]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:elf_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#c7dfc0|name=[[Elf]]|symbol=e|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Forest retreat]]s|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:human_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#c7dfc0|name=[[Human]]|symbol=U|color=3:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Variable1|food=No|size=70,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Town]]s and cities|note=Trading race}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:goblin_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#dfc0c0|name=[[Goblin]]|symbol=g|color=7:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=60,000|value=Not tameable|biome=[[Dark fortress]]es and [[dark pit]]s|note=Snatchers2}}
{{v50_creaturecurrent table row|graphic=[[File:kobold_sprite.png]]|bgcolor=#dfc0c0|name=[[Kobold]]|symbol=k|color=6:0:0|playable=Adv|hostile=Usually1|food=No|size=20,000|value=Not tameable|biome=Caves|note=Skulking race}}
|}

To change the background color, add <code><nowiki>|bgcolor=COLOR</nowiki></code> segment after the <code><nowiki>|graphic</nowiki></code> part. You can use color names or HTML hex color codes. I added this to the v50 creatures page, but at this time, I only added the first five creatures I just displayed. It's gonna take a while to find ALL of those creature sprites. I hope a lot of people help out on that one. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 05:29, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

:Thanks, looks nice! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:44, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

User:Vallode/sandbox

2023-01-05T17:31:08Z

Vallode: Add page quality test

==Page quality==

<div style="margin:0.8em 0;text-align:right;font-size:75%">{{#switch:{{ucfirst:{{lc:{{{1}}}}}}}|Tattered|Fine|Superior|Exceptional|Masterwork=|#default=[[DF:Quality#Unknown|!!UNKNOWN!!]] {{dot}} }} [[DF:Quality#Tattered|xTATTEREDx]] {{dot}} [[DF:Quality#Fine|+FINE+]] {{dot}} [[DF:Quality#Superior|*SUPERIOR*]] {{dot}} [[DF:Quality#Exceptional|≡EXCEPTIONAL≡]] {{dot}} [[DF:Quality#Masterwork|☼MASTERWORK☼]]</div>

==In-game border==

A migrant wave has arrived!

Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions

2023-01-04T21:49:34Z

Vallode: /* v50 migration */

{{archive|
# [[DF Talk:Versions/Archive 1|Page 1]]}}

== Version 0.31.19 starts a new DF generation? ==

My reading of Toady's comments on the release of 0.31.19 is that it came out basically because he felt it would take too long to get DF all the way to 0.32. With the ore changes, the sitefinder changes, the addition of grazing and several different industries, there's a lot of changes between 31.18 and 31.19. So I'm thinking it might be a good idea to call it the first release of DF2011 - and what we refer to as "DF2010" would then become 0.31.18.

Thoughts? --[[User:DeMatt|DeMatt]] 07:06, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

==Revisiting Redirects==

I wasn't around when the redirect policy was created, and I'm having trouble understanding the rationale. The example claims that linking [[Main:Cheese]] to [[cv:Cheese maker]] is problematic...but mainspace only ever redirects to the current version. If the best target in the current version is cheese maker, why not link to it directly? (It's not, at least for Cheese, since [[DF2012:Cheese]] exists now.) The explanation seems to be claiming that 40d articles that link to Cheese will follow the Mainspace link--but that hasn't been the case for a long while now. Articles in 40d automatically link against other articles in 40d, so that version remains internally consistent no matter where mainspace links to in the current version. For a current example, what do we gain by linking [[Main:Mead]] to [[cv:Mead]] and linking [[DF2012:Mead]] to [[DF2012:Alcohol]]?

If this really is just an outdated procedure, I recommend we drop the mummery and allow mainspace to link to cv:(best target). Double redirects ''may'' work (sometimes, but [[Main:Mead]] demonstrates a common problem where automatic redirection fails), but if they are unnecessary I think they should be avoided, partly because of problems like [[Main:Mead]] and partly because of the effort required to protect double redirects from users who believe they are problematic.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:16, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

:I was just thinking that. I'm currently attempting to write a basic extension to eliminate the need for mainspace redirects entirely, although Mediawiki's class structure may make this more difficult than I had hoped (the only method I've found for resolving redirects takes the ''article text'' instead of a title, e.g. "#REDIRECT ..."). I do agree that the current situation with redirects isn't ideal, so I'm hoping this will work better (once I get it to work). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:42, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Okay, that wasn't quite as clear as I meant it to be. In general, I think this is a tricky situation. Mediawiki wasn't designed to have five content namespaces, and certainly not chains of redirects between them. The problem that was pointed out in the [[DF:REDIR|policy]] is the fact that with:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
pages in the cv: namespace can't use [[<nowiki/>foo]], since the namespace links modification causes it to be treated as [[<nowiki/>cv:foo]] instead, which doesn't exist. The current suggested solution is this:
Main:Foo -> cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
This fixes the problem of [[<nowiki/>foo]] not working on cv pages, but creates issues with double redirects not always working. Another solution, which is more intuitive to new editors, is:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
Both require creating two redirects. The first method has the advantage of ''ensuring'' that the cv redirect exists (otherwise, main:foo would be a redlink), while the second has the advantage of working more reliably in a couple cases.

What I'm trying to do is make main:Foo "jump" to cv:Foo when cv:foo exists, ''even if main:foo doesn't exist'' (basically it would treat all mainspace pages as redirects to cv pages, but only if the cv page exists and not the mainspace page). I had main:Bar jumping to cv:Bar fine, but if cv:Foo redirected to cv:Bar, accessing main:Foo would mysteriously stop at cv:Foo even if I increased the redirect limit. What I'm trying to do now is follow the redirects internally, without relying on Mediawiki to do it automatically - unfortunately, that has proved to be harder than I had hoped (and I sent my web server into an infinite loop while trying). I will try to work on this some more when I get a chance, although I'm not sure when that'll be yet :(. For now, feel free to fix broken double mainspace redirects as necessary, as long as redirects in the DF2012 namespace stay pointing to the right page (and new mainspace redirects get added in the DF2012 namespace too). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

:You're treating cv like a namespace--it's not. It is simply shorthand for "fill in the current version here". [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Briess&diff=182404&oldid=181281 As I discovered a long time ago on a server not far away], linking from Main:Foo to cv:Foo tends to break redirection chains. If, instead of linking to cv:Foo, you link to DF2012:Foo, it might just work. It would, of course, be better if your patch could evaluate cv itself, but even if you have to hardcode the current version it's a single point of maintenance that requires update very infrequently. (For that matter, we could probably dispense with the cv hack entirely and just have a bot update mainspace links from DF2012 to DF201X when we switch to a new version.)--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:05, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
::I know cv isn't a namespace - I was just trying to avoid future confusion when the DF2012 namespace changes. It's interesting that changing "cv" to "DF2012" fixes some broken redirects, although I've found that simply making an edit to a broken redirect can usually fix it as well. I've actually had the most problems with double redirects when the second one (in the DF2012 namespace) doesn't use the DF2012 prefix (e.g. main:Foo containing <nowiki>[[cv:Foo]] and DF2012:Foo containing [[Bar]]</nowiki>). I'd rather keep the cv alias even if it isn't necessary for mainspace redirects when I get the patch to work, since it makes it easier to refer to the current version of the page (for example, several MDF articles contain links to a vanilla page for things that don't change in the mod).
::Also, using aliases like "cv" is supported by Mediawiki; in fact, several WMF wikis use them (for example, "[[wikipedia:WP:Redirects|WP:Redirects]]" on Wikipedia). It's quite likely that Mediawiki isn't processing double redirects using aliases correctly, though, since that's uncommon on most wikis. --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:35, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

In light of the lack of support for the current redirect policy, I propose we replace the current redirect section with:

:Mainspace article pages should use the cv: alias when redirecting to a versioned page, which will automatically update the link when a new version is released. For example, page "Main:Foo" should redirect to page "cv:Bar" (where "Bar" is the page that best describes the topic Foo in the current version).

:Pages in mainspace should only redirect to an older versioned page if that content no longer exists in the current version of the game (e.g. [[Cave river]], [[Chunk]]). In these cases the cv: alias cannot be used.

:Pages inside a versioned namespace should not use the cv: alias. Instead, they should redirect to the best page within that versioned namespace (e.g. [[DF2012:Dodging]], [[v0.31:Drink]]).

:Due to limitations of the wiki software, double redirects should be avoided if possible. When fixing double redirects in mainspace, please make sure to use the cv: alias as appropriate.

If no one objects, I will make this change in a few days.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:21, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

:Okay with me. It may be worth mentioning that double redirects only really need to be changed when they don't work (since changing a lot of redirects that work isn't necessary), but I think it's clearer and more relevant than the current policy. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Done.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:55, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I was finally able to get my extension to work after being motivated by one too many malfunctioning redirects. It now causes nonexistent pages in the main namespace to behave exactly like redirects to their DF2012 counterparts (when linked to, accessed directly, and transcluded). Double redirects also work (up to 100, in fact, although that was a temporary safety measure that I'll probably change). This means we'll be able to safely get rid of all mainspace redirects (redirects that redirect to something other than "cv" will still function if not deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:20, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
:What about articles which don't exist in the current version but do exist in older versions? Will those still need mainspace redirects, or will your extension be able to automatically redirect them to v0.31/40d/23a? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] ([[User talk:Quietust|talk]]) 01:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
::It ignores all mainspace pages that actually have content, including redirects, so pages like [[masons guild]] won't be affected (unless deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:47, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Done and deployed. [[Cat]] is still treated as a redirect, even though I just deleted it (try clicking on the "redirected from" link). Pages that exist are ignored, so [[Masons guild]] and [[History of Dwarf Fortress]] still function normally (as a redirect to a 23a page and a non-redirect, respectively). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm sending around a bot right now to delete all redirects of the format "foo -> cv:foo" (a surprising number don't fit this format, so I'm leaving them alone for now). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:43, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

:I'm confused. Do we use double redirects or not? Is there a single place we define our linking policy (including redirects), and is it updated?
:I had trouble linking to [[Consolidated_development]] in [[v0.34:Dragon]]. It kept pointing to v0.34:Consolidated_development, which does not exist. I ended up linking to Main:Consolidated_development to make it work. --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] ([[User talk:Nahno|talk]]) 10:18, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

::That's a separate problem altogether - links in the versioned namespaces (v0.34, v0.31, 40d, 23a) automatically link to pages within their namespace. I may be able to set up a fallback to mainspace once I'm able to deploy again, but for now the "main:" alias is the intended solution. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 11:36, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

== Google often directs people to the 0.31 page ==

I've noticed a couple of times that finding a wiki page from an external search will often drop me onto a page from an older version. Is it possible to mitigate this somehow for new players? I could imagine something like redirecting old:Bar -> cv:Bar unless the user has come from old:Foo; no idea if that would actually work though. [[User:PeridexisErrant|PeridexisErrant]] ([[User talk:PeridexisErrant|talk]]) 11:48, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

:As a temporary solution, I could write a script that displays a banner of some kind if the user came from an external site. I'll ask Briess if he can do anything on the server level to increase the weighting of the current version's pages. (Obviously there are situations where people are looking for old pages, like [[23a:dungeon master]], so we don't want to disable indexing entirely on old pages.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:03, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

== DF2014? ==

As Toady [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ draws closer to a new release], it might be worthwhile to discuss the addition of a new version to the wiki. The upcoming release covers two years of changes and introduces a number of new plants, foods, drinks, multi-tile trees, climbing, jumping, etc., so it is likely to have significant changes from the current DF2012. To avoid having people start new pages (and lose all the effort spent refining the prior version's page), I think it would be best to have a bot automatically copy over the DF2012 pages as a starting point for DF2014. I would suggest that these copied pages include a noticebox template mentioning that the content may be outdated, so that we can easily track which pages have been reviewed. I think either the {{tl|version check}} or {{tl|old}} template would work. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:43, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

:This is what [[User:QuietBot]] did after the 0.34 release, so it's certainly possible to use the same script to migrate to DF2014. I would like a way of tagging migrated pages, since inaccuracies in some pages went unnoticed for months after they were migrated. Since {{tl|old}} is already in use, {{tl|version check}} may be a better solution (it can be reworded slightly, or we can make a separate template for DF2014 migration). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:23, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
:Made [[Template:DF2014 migrated]] as an example. Any thoughts? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:32, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

== Redirects inconsistency ==

Following a redirect is supposed to be exactly the same as going straight to the page it redirects to, but this actually isn't the case:
* Go to [[Seeds]] and you get [[v0.34:Seed]] (outdated)
* Go to http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Seeds&redirect=no and click on the link and you get to [[DF2014:Seed]] (current)
So if you search for "seed", the top result is the DF2014 version. But search for "seeds" and you get the redirect, which sends you to the outdated page instead. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

While I'm talking about redirects, it seems redirects to sections don't work: see [[DF2014:How do I manage my seeds and crops]]. I know MediaWiki is capable of this trick because Wikipedia does it. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:32, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

:I have absolutely no idea why [[seeds]] redirects to a v0.34 page - it could be a Mediawiki bug. The section links issue is due to a known issue in the redirect extension we use, which has yet to be fixed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:01, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
:It looks like deleting both [[Seeds]] and [[DF2014:Seeds]] fixed things (by allowing AutoRedirect to handle the redirects instead). Feel free to tag any others with {{tl|bad redirect}}. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::It gets stranger. [[Vial]] redirects explicitly to [[cv:Flask]] which displays (when you look at it with &redirect=no) as [[DF2014:Flask]], but still goes to the v0.34 version. It seems redirects interpret the cv: pseudo-namespace (or whatever it's called) in an outdated way. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 18:08, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::I've added a note to this page about this issue. If it gets resolved, the note should be removed. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 21:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

==Reorganizing versions==

The internet deals with moved content... poorly. Google is still linking to v0.34 pages more than a year after the switch to "DF2014", and even the wiki software still has cached links pointing to the old version pages.

I propose reorganizing versions on the wiki to avoid moving content whenever possible. Instead of having a temporary "current version" namespace that changes occasionally, all the current information gets promoted to the Main namespace. When the next version split occurs, the Main articles as of a certain revision number can be copied to the newly-created permanent "old version" namespace, while all the current information remains in Main. This not only fixes the link rot issue, but it has a few other benefits as well: fewer administrative tasks, no lockdown (a historical version of the Main pages can be copied at any point, even if the Main articles are already modified for the new version), almost all the article history is maintained in the Main article (instead of being spread unevenly across multiple versions), no "temporary" namespaces are needed, fewer problematic long redirect chains, and hopefully less user confusion (since Main gets priority in search results, etc.).

As an example, today we would not have a DF2014 namespace (which is good because "temporary" namespaces historically disappear anyway). If you ran a search for [[seed]] you'd end up at Main:seed, which would have all the current information on seeds. The version box at the top of the page would still link to the older versions of the seed article. When a new version is released, an admin would choose a revision number and copy the Main:seed article as it exists at that revision number to v0.40:seed. That's it. One historical copy that needs little to no new editing, and zero redirections/moves.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:02, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

:Makes sense to me. It would involve a lot of work, though (e.g. fixing templates and categories to account for the current version being in mainspace), although that should be doable thanks to {{tl|category}}, {{tl|version switch}}, etc.. A bot could be set up to copy revisions from before a release date as well, which would be more difficult (and maybe slower) than a direct copy, but not severely. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:24, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

:Actually, there are a few issues with that, namely that there wouldn't be an easy way to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned mainspace pages. There are ways to resolve Google search priority (we can exclude pages from older versions from search engine results if there are newer versions of those pages available, for example). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:47, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::There aren't very many non-versioned mainspace pages, and determining if a page is versioned is as simple as looking for the version template and/or categories added by the version template (e.g. copy [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Category:Current this category] instead of Main:*). The problem with "suggesting" newer pages to Google is that they obviously aren't crawling our wiki regularly (if they were, the fact that the mainspace redirects point to new pages would automatically be picked up). Even if your Google hints worked they wouldn't do anything for all the other broken links out on the 'net.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:35, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: Google actually crawls the wiki constantly - we probably get crawl hits from google for a continuous block of 2-3 hours per day, each and every day. Why they are slow to update is beyond me though. I can't remember why we didn't do this initially, but there was a technical limitation involved if I remember correctly. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] ([[User talk:Briess|talk]]) 22:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: There are <meta> tags that can be used to hide pages from search results (for search engines that recognize them, that is). Searching for {{tl|av}} or [[:Category:Current]] might work, although we'd have to make sure all of the DF2014 pages include that (some pages don't, particularly some disambiguation pages, although all of them should). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:53, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

:Is there a particular reason main and current are separate to begin with?—[[User:CLA|CLA]] ([[User talk:CLA|talk]]) 00:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

::It's mostly intended to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned pages and make version-related templates simpler to work with, since every versioned page has a namespace. I wasn't active here in 2010 when this system was created, so Briess and Emi would know more.
::Another issue I just thought of with Loci's suggestion is categories - currently, categories like [[:Category:Animals]] are used to organize the versioned sub-categories. Sure, we can change {{tl|Category}} to categorize mainspace pages in [[:Category:v0.40:Animals]] or [[:Category:DF2014:Animals]], but that would be less straightforward because there wouldn't be a namespace with that name (until pages are migrated when a newer major version is released). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

:Moving current pages to the main namespace sounds like a great idea. -[[User:Jecowa|Jecowa]] ([[User talk:Jecowa|talk]]) 20:47, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Another thought: dealing with migrating redirects could be difficult with this proposal - specifically, determining which redirects should be migrated to a versioned namespace. Redirects can't contain {{tl|av}}, at least not before ``#REDIRECT``. I ''think'' it would be possible to copy pages in two stages, though - all non-redirects first, then all redirects whose targets were also copied. Thoughts? Anything I'm missing? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:41, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Some subpages (particularly /raw and /Edit notice) also deliberately lack {{tl|av}}, although those shouldn't be too hard to handle. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

:Redirect pages (and all other edge cases I've looked at) can be included in categories (like [[:Category:Current]]) to determine whether or not they should be copied into an archival version. But if the redirects are "properly qualified" then they can all be copied over blindly. Mainspace redirects pointing to versioned information should use a blank namespace (which will be automatically constrained to the archival namespace); mainspace redirects pointing to unversioned information should use an explicit "Main" (which will automatically link back to the unversioned page). Then, when [[[[Toady]]]] gets copied to [[[[v0.4x:Toady]]]] it will point back to [[[[Main:Toady One]]]]. Meanwhile, [[[[Beer]]]], copied to [[[[v0.4x:Beer]]]], will properly point to [[[[v0.4x:Alcohol]]]].--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:00, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

::I think qualifying redirects is the best solution here - categorizing redirects manually is another possible source of errors, since categories (or a lack thereof) would only be visible on the redirect page itself, and [[:Category:Current]] is a hidden category. Copying over mainspace redirects into versioned namespaces would also resolve some issues that have come up due to those not reliably existing currently. I should be able to set up a bot script to add "main:" to current mainspace redirects (and it shouldn't break anything, since those redirects go to other mainspace pages anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:57, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

(Note: I wrote all of this without noticing the previous discussion above.) I was wondering, when the wiki creates a new namespace for a major release again, if it is possible to ''not'' create a namespace for the next current version (e.g. "DF202x") and instead have the mainspace articles (which are currently redirects) become the new cv and move the content there. Therefore, [[cv:Cat]] would just be "[[Cat]]" (or [[Main:Cat]]).

Certain namespace-related templates like [[Template:Ns/0]] would need to be changed, though nothing significant as far as I know. For most cases, any "DF2014" would be replaced with "Main" or even blank. There's also multiple extensions handling the current namespace system and they may need to be modified too, though I'm not sure if or how much. I'm guessing based on the discussions above that it will change stuff up.

My reason is the current namespace is increasingly becoming more anachronistic. "DF2014" could be misinterpreted as "this page is about the 2014 version of the game" or "this page was last updated in 2014", which I've seen a few people in forums mention. Granted that [[Template:Av]] is on the top of very article, I still think the namespace is inconsistent with the recentness of the article. But how is this related to what I'm asking for? Let's say we continue the current system: if we happen to do a new namespace change this year and create DF2020, the next major release (after graphics/UI) will be mythgen, which is estimated to take several years to develop (the Big Wait), and so the anachronism will start over again. The proposed way will prevent this from occurring for the next major release and every release thereafter.

I think the confusion with having a namespace that becomes old-fashioned overtime supersedes the confusion with not marking current versioned articles with a namespace. Most users just search "Cat" on the search bar and naturally expect to get information about the latest release of DF. So if users go a page that's just titled "Cat", they won't expect outdated info about cats from a previous release. That's how the current system works anyways. We'll be skipping the two-step process that we have now. It'll make several wiki tasks much simpler as well. Editors can create new articles for current versions without remembering to add a namespace. It'll fix any existing issues with (double) redirects; instead of [[Main:Kitten]] redirecting to [[cv:Kitten]], which goes to [[DF2014:Kitten]], which then redirects to [[DF2014:Cat]], [[Main:Kitten]] would just redirect to [[Main:Cat]]. And the cv: alias will no longer be necessary since "cv:" = "Main:" and will be forever.

There's no need to differentiate the current version and previous versions with a namespace for the current version is what I'm saying. Articles of previous versions will retain their respective namespaces. Users will still type "40d:Cat" to go to the 40d version of the article, but if they want the current version, they'll just type "Cat" (like now). The mainspace containing the "live" version of an article is natural and would create no uncertainty when browsing the wiki. And it would simplify the wiki somewhat and future-proof this anachronism problem. As a bonus, this change will also prevent web search engines from showing previous version pages when typing "DF cat" or something. (This isn't happening right now as DF2014 has been the current namespace for ~6 years, but it'll happen again when everything moves to a new namespace.)

This is the gist of it, and I may have ignored most of the problems with this proposal. I have personally wished for the whole version namespacing be made less complicated and have been seeking for a solution, and I feel like this is the best way to go about in the future. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:27, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:<s>Whoops, looks like Loci already proposed this exact thing long ago. I definitely missed that discussion and should have checked first. My apologies. I'll move my text to that section and remove this one. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:36, 14 August 2020 (UTC)</s> Done. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:40, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:The main issue I have with that is that putting pages about the current version in a namespace also differentiates between those pages and pages not about ''any'' version (for example, [[Toady One]] does not need a 40d or v0.34 page). Yes, we can use {{tl|av}} to mark versioned pages, but people often forget to add that to new pages. The current system also allows determining whether a page is versioned or not from its title, which makes migrations a lot faster. Relying on {{tl|av}} would require either reading the content of every page (which would slow scripts down significantly) or cross-checking with the list of all pages including the template (feasible, but a bit more complicated, and still susceptible to missing templates). I suppose that manually fixing and migrating pages missing {{tl|av}} later wouldn't be too much work, though.
:I am definitely in favor of changing "DF2014" (or a new namespace) to "Current", though. I was in favor of "DF2014" in 2014, but I don't think it makes sense anymore, and "Current" seemed to be a popular alternative in both the DF2012 and DF2014 discussions on the matter. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

== Weird redirect behaviour ==

[[Pump stack]] redirects to [[cv:Screw pump#Pump stack]]. If you look at the redirect itself it says it redirects to DF2014 namespace, which is correct. But if you actually follow the redirect, it goes to v0.34 namespace. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 16:10, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
:Yeah, that's part of the issue described in the above section (the wiki caching part, not on Google's end.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:00, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

== v50 organization ==

Some wiki admins have had a talk on Discord and decided that the most sustainable path forward is to put content for all future versions of DF in the main namespace. We will be working on a bot to do this in the next few days. Feel free to chime in with suggestions here. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

:Is it maybe possible to do backwards-namespacing? Like we have a "Main" namespace, which people are free to update, and whenever there's a new version of DF the "Main" namespace is copied into a namespace for the then old version, much like how you'd branch a stable branch from a development branch when working with a git-project? [[User:Therahedwig|Therahedwig]] ([[User talk:Therahedwig|talk]]) 23:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

::Yeah, we could do that if we decide to. We were talking about doing that for v50, actually, and might still do something similar to preserve edit history if it doesn't end up being too hard to automate. Our hope is that we will not introduce new namespaces for v50 -> v5x, unless there is a serious breaking change (and hopefully there isn't one). But if we change our mind, one advantage of the type of migration you mentioned is that it can be done retroactively - we can copy historical revisions that were current at the time of the release, and would only lose some typo fixes made after the release that apply to earlier versions as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:11, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

ETA is < 24 hours. Doing some final checks on a migration script. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 07:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

: We should really have a task list as there are many things that change and need updating. Including but not limited to:
:* Most templates that used the previous namespace convention broke, including nav templates.
:* Many game files changed locations and their pages need to be updated.
:* Raws need to be updated.
:* Various features added, changed, removed.
:* UI has been changed -- though I am more inclined to wait for classic release to avoid extra work --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

"''Raws need to be updated.''" Including applying text wraparound where necessary, I suppose - more than a few of them have proven to be that special kind of...''difficult'' to navigate otherwise, shall we say? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 12:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:There is already a task list in the [[#v50 migration|section below]] that includes templates and raws, with an explanation. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

== v50 migration ==

The initial migration script is done. New content is in the '''main''' namespace, e.g. [[Cat]]. Old content is still at [[DF2014:Cat]]. History was migrated to the ''new'' (main namespace) articles.

I know several things are broken still. Please reply if you find any others:
<div style="border-left: 2px solid red">
* <s>Versioned templates haven't been migrated yet (e.g. {{tl|vermin}} on [[Ant]])</s>
** Fixed. Most were migrated by a bot.
* <s>Raws are missing on all pages that use them.</s>
** This also affects sidebars, such as on [[Cat]] and [[Microcline]].
** Update: The DFRawFunctions extension has been upgraded to include v50 raws, using the "v50:" prefix for filenames instead of "DF2014:". <s>I haven't finished a migration script to create the /raw pages themselves, but they can typically be created manually by copying the DF2014 /raw pages and changing "DF2014" to "v50" everywhere.</s> —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
** Update 2: Raws have been added for all pages! They were copied from the "DF2014" pages and had "DF2014" replaced with "v50", which appears to have worked from a spot-check, but let me know if you find any problems. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
* Some pages where the DF2014 page was a redirect to a main namespace page that contained content were migrated incorrectly.
** In this case, the main namespace page is usually a redirect to itself. This can be fixed by undoing LethosorBot's edit to the main namespace page, then copying the content to the DF2014 page.
** Update: most seem to have been fixed manually - thanks! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* <s>Some main-namespace talk pages redirect to DF2014 talk pages. Some of these redirects work, and some (usually older ones) do not.</s>
** Fixed with a bot. Some redirects from talk pages to other deleted talk pages are now broken, e.g. [[Talk:Above_ground]] (exists) -> [[Talk:Tile attributes]] (redlink). I am leaving them like that because they redirect to where the talk page should be created, but I'm also fine with people deleting them if they really want to. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* {{tl|quality}} for new articles is disabled (see below)
* Some links from DF2014 to Main weren't working: e.g. the version selector [[DF2014:Mason's workshop]] was linking to [[DF2014:Main:Mason's workshop]] instead of [[Main:Mason's workshop]]. I'm not sure exactly why, but I fixed it with a change to the NamespaceLinks extension. Let me know if you spot similar broken links. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:19, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
</div>

—[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:54, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:The quality levels of the 50.03 pages seem to be missing. I'm not sure if that's covered under that first point. [[User:Trainzack|Trainzack]] ([[User talk:Trainzack|talk]]) 06:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::If the the [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Quality]] feature can be made to work with namespace scheme change, I suggest to automatically assign the lowest quality rating to all pages, alternately add the {{tl|old}} to all pages. Otherwise there will be a lot of pages that will fall through the cracks. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::I disabled {{tl|quality}} in the main namespace because it would require some rework to make the rating script and the template work properly there. Feel free to take a stab at the template. I will see what can be done on the extension side. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::What needs to be done on the template side? I'm not sure I see too big of an issue leaving pages as "unknown-quality" for now (or just change the default to tattered) until we get the rating script working. Is that script up anywhere, anything that could be helped with? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:10, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::They're already marked as unknown. Really the only issue I know of with the template is that it doesn't show up with some of the newer skins we added, and that can be fixed by getting rid of the absolute positioning. As for the script, it can be found at https://github.com/DF-Wiki/QualityRatings, and the issue is really only with the configuration system not recognizing the main namespace as valid. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:29, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::Great, I started having a crack at fixing the template with different themes. Is the preference to get some CSS going and then include it in the global stylesheet (i.e different styles per theme) or to try and get a "one size fits all" fix? —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 08:14, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I would rather avoid custom site-wide CSS if we can. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I appreciate that, I think it's the simplest solution to add a few lines to common.css though. Unless there is a way to attach CSS specifically to a template, I saw a few extensions that allowed that but I'm not sure if any are present in the wiki at the moment. Regardless there already exists a class `div.topicon` that is specifically for the quality ratings, is there an issue with expanding this class to accommodate the themes? The list of themes where the quality rating display is broken/invisible: Citizen, MinervaNeue, MonoBook. —[[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 21:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

It appears some pages are redirecting recursively and never resolving correctly, like the [[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Character_table&redirect=no|character table]] and [[tileset repository]] 07:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
: Indeed, these can be caught here: [[Special:DoubleRedirects]] --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

It might be useful to change the notice title to "release information '''for editors'''" --[[Special:Contributions/142.59.195.176|142.59.195.176]] 10:26, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Can do. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::New here, hello. Should we set a date where we remove/only show the banner for logged in users. There are (some) pages that have 4 different notices about the upgrade. [[Engraving]] is one such page, the top banner states "information for editors", we then have the "this page was migrated" banner, a version selection which warns the article might be inaccurate, and a smaller banner saying the page might need to be updated. Quite a lot of screen space, I think we can start to slowly reduce the amount of warnings this coming month? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 10:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Unfortunately, only showing info to logged-in users is difficult with how MediaWiki caching works. In terms of reducing warnings, there is a discussion [[Template_talk:ArticleVersion#.22Note_that_some_content_may_still_need_to_be_updated..22|here]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:43, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::As for [[Engraving]] specifically, the {{tl|old}} banner was actually present on [[DF2014:Engraving]] as well and got carried over with the migration. I removed it, and agree that it was redundant. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:46, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Main talkpages seem to redirect to DF2014 talk. Not sure if it is intentional but I like it, though we should pay attention when creating new discussion relating to v50 ending up there.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 14:18, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:That's unintentional. I specifically wrote the migration script to not move talk pages, but that has the side-effect of leaving any previously-created "Talk -> DF2014 talk" redirects intact. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Yo Lethosor, are we adding graphic sprites for the pages in some way? Or are we waiting for you to add some sort of new template or something? I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that the current templates don't allow that. Not sure if I'm allowed to change/create any templates either, as I don't want to break things for hundreds of pages. Edit: And IF the icons are allowed, should they be left alone, or 2×-3× sized like how the Minecraft wiki does it? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 14:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Depends on which templates you mean. There are copyright concerns with uploading a premium sprite sheet, for instance. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm not talking about uploading an entire sprite sheet. I'm just talking about individual icons for each respective page. One image for cows, one for horses, one for werebeasts, etc. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 16:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::If we do that for every creature in the sprite sheet, that's not much different (in terms of copyright) from uploading the entire sprite sheet. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:09, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::Is there someone we can talk to about that? We finally get this new game with graphics, and then we can't use the very graphics of the game? No matter what the rules are, I'd say that would be the stupidest thing ever. I know I'm infamous here when it comes to copyright and images and stuff, but about 80% of game wikis out there are completely unofficial, and use game file images like no one's business. I can't imagine anyone's door being knocked on if we used the game's sprites, but I won't add any here until we have a go-ahead. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 17:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::...I've made noise in Mayday's direction on this matter, at least (prob an incorrect maneuver, ''but'').[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 17:55, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: I hope some sort of arrangement can be made so we can use the new sprites with permission/limits, just as we are using the raw files. Otherwise we are all (devs and editors alike) shooting ourselves in the foot here.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::I just thought of something. We're supposedly not allowed to upload entire sprite sheets, right? What if - for the time being - we just use a few of them for the purpose of testing out new infoboxes? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 21:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::I don't know. If someone could ask Kitfox and post the response here, that would be great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::::I've reached out to Alexandra, but she hasn't answered yet. Until then I found these old approvals from the previous community manager, Feeona: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8243633#msg8243633 link1], [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=176640.msg8243642#msg8243642 link2]). Waiting for a newer response until we begin mass uploads is probably the politer option, but like Zippy said, it is also standard for wikis to use game sprites with less approval. I second their idea of trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. On the extreme off-chance (and I do think it is) Kitfox protests we can always remove these few. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:19, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::And here is a third, more official statement: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8249718#msg8249718 link3]). Perhaps that address of info@kitfoxgames.com is the better channel to ask for a confirmation, rather than Discord DMs, but I will be going to bed, so it is best if someone else does that. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::Thanks for tracking this down! Ok, sprites should be fine, but let's avoid uploading the entire premium tileset as a single image, for instance (as the forum thread says, "use common sense"). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::: Looks good, permission is always preferable over fairuse, I think it is a win win for all involved. I agree that we shouldn't upload entire sprite sheets (e.g. there is no reason to upload the windmill from every direction or whole construction phase for workshops) and that there are a lot of details that needs to be ironed out through testing. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 05:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::We have a green light on uploading all and any sprites. Their response to me can be seen [https://i.imgur.com/BhmHjzC.png here]. I'm sure someone else confirmed it before me. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:00, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Shifting temporarily to a new issue, is the documentation of [[Template:ArticleVersion]] outdated? It would seem so to me, since the current version no longer has its own namespace, with the templates needing updating being different ones. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 18:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:I think it is still accurate enough. We left open the possibility of making another namespace in the future, albeit with a different migration strategy - see [[#v50 organization|above]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Some Changes to infoboxes might be needed. Too bad [[User:Doorkeeper]] isn't around. He did a great work with navbox project--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:52, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

I just realized that raw files aren't stored as regular wiki pages but loaded via the DFRawFunctions extension (hence the need to update). Good news it's going to be handled in bulk, consistently and relatively easy to updated. Even better it's Lethosor problem ;) Also I just realized that all the "raw files" (txt files in the new vanilla folder) are released into the public domain. Both are probably not news to the vets but I'll leave it here for those who less up to date like myself. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:35, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: I noticed that some templates aren't working properly in the new namespace, e.g. [[Basalt]] entry had its raw updated manually but the infobox fail to show any details. Cursory look suggest {{t|layerlookup/0}} need a minor tweak. This should do the work
:: Replace: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
:: With___: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{</nowiki>:<nowiki>{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
: Not sure what the plan and ETA with raws update so I didn't touch this high usage template for now. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 08:11, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

::Please do feel free to make this update. I am still working on a script to create the <code>/raw</code> pages themselves. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be an idea to add to the Sitenotice to remove the {{tl|migrated article}} tag when an article has been fully updated? I see many articles that seem to be updated still have the tag. And/or advise to make use of the {{tl|verify}} for sections still in need of checking? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 10:12, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:Probably a good shout. The "see this page" link does include the detail on removing but we should more explicitly encourage removing the banner once a page has at least been looked over. [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:01, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

== v50 specific issues ==
=== Graphics===
Follow up on the use of game sprites and the need to trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. First sprite [[:File:Beds v50.png]] was uploaded and used on [[Bed]] entry. Any thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Seems like it should be rearranged to be horizontal. Also, has there been a serious discussion about copyright? Full screenshots are 100% fine, but you start going into a grey area when you upload pieces of a spritesheet. I'm of the opinion that it's all fine as long as it's inconvenient to reconstruct the full sheet from the individual images. Maybe a further restriction could be you shouldn't upload any of the art unless it's used in an infobox (maybe an exception for pieces of the UI). And one more restriction could be you shouldn't show everything, like in your bed example, maybe just the wooden bed is good enough, leave out the stone and metal, especially since those can only be made from strange moods. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:43, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::Actually, your bed image is kinda bad for showing off what a bed looks like because it doesn't show the pillow/blankets. That might point to cropped screenshots being the best path, although less convenient for the uploader, as you don't get details left out. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:46, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::I created a new license template [[Template:Copyright game]], based it on the way the RimWorld wiki does things. Call it a prototype, but it's probably how your bed image should be labelled. Indeed, I added it to it already. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]])

::: I agree that the horizontal arrangement would suit better here and that we should strive to represent how things look in-game. Otherwise, I am not too concerned about people being able to reconstruct anything (lets just say that ''anyone'' interested in that can get the real thing from the game files), also it seem we have permission to use the sprits on top of fairuse. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 19:55, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

::: Modifying the existing template to allow the inclusion of the new sprites is easy (Something like [https://ibb.co/zFXCrjd this]?) The big question is the matter of consistency is there any exceptions that will break the format (size wise with variant bloat for example), the sprite naming format, etc --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:44, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::: If we are going to show a variant for each material type, then maybe these should be added as separate images so we can add a tooltip for each image. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:49, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

:I've got another prototype going here and here: [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]] and [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox]]. (You'll need to add the css stuff to your own /vector.css). Basically it's a way to recolor images using css classes. No idea if there's a better way. Also, the real implementation would require a change to [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Should mention, there ''is'' a different way, just upload each image 16 times, one for each coloring. But maybe that's not very elegant. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:45, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

: It should be noted that soon the classic edition will be released, hence one should plan to have both the Premium and classic alongside in that little space --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:14, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm looking into a tab extension to potentially support this in infoboxes. Perhaps [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Tabs Extension:Tabs]? I tried [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TabberNeue Extension:TabberNeue], but it displays a placeholder if JavaScript is disabled, which isn't great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: The Neue Tabber seem to works pretty much like the old one (which fandom [https://coding-help.fandom.com/wiki/Tabber#Adding_images_into_tabbers still use]) defaulting to showing the first tab only. Quick look suggest that neue work the same, plus the notice that 'Tabber requires Javascript to function' warning? if so, and if it is a bother, then you should be able to edit out the tabberneue-noscript string in code. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:29, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: I much prefer your tabber solution, but if that fails we can also use the gallery slideshow mode. If so, beware it has no way to control image size so the images have to be maliciously uploaded using the exact same size. example:
<gallery mode="slideshow">
File:SteelSample.png
File:TinSample.png
File:ZincSample.png
File:GoldSample.png
</gallery> --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

==== adding premium set to Infobox ====
I am unclear where are we going with this? 
1) Will (A) tabs be implemented, (B) we be using mediawiki toggle [[Template_talk:V50_workshop|example]] for premium and classic/blocked, (c) put images side by side, or (d) something else? 
2) Also [[silver]] and [[Pig iron]] use very different image style for example. 
3) Anything else you want ? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

: Personally, I would love tabs to be implemented, but I think that side by side might be best for most. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
: Here is rough layout we can use. It should fit most buildings given the default sprite size. There is also a different floor plan for both (inspired by reddit)

{|
|- valign=top
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 5×5
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>
|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|colspan=2|<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">
[[File:Siege workshop.png|center|160px]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab"">
{|
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%; font-size: 125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Siege workshop}}</center>
|style="line-height: 1em; font-size: 125%;"|
{| style="border-spacing:4px;"
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 3×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|colspan=2 style="text-align: right;"|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="float:left; border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%;"|
<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">[[File:Carpenter's workshop.png]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab""><center>
{| style="font-size: 175%; border-spacing: 0; background-color: black; border: 2px solid black"
|- 
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|"|7:0:0}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|{{=}}|6:0:0}}
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|]|0:0:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
|}</center></div>
|
{| style="border-spacing:5px;"
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×1
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:Screw_press.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Screw press}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Screw press}}</center>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:water_wheel.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Water wheel}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;line-height:normal;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Water wheel}}</center>
|}
|}
:Any thoughts on the direction and or any and all of its elements? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:16, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

::I kind of like side-by-side, if it fits. If anyone wants to implement a toggle button or tabs, I would ask that that be implemented in a template for now, so that e.g. we could change a toggle button to tabs in a single place if we decide to install an extension to support that. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

::: I noticed a comment saying that [[impassable tile]] are no longer used in v50, is that true for all constructions? If so, floor plans are no longer needed, making things much easier as we can fit everything in except the 5v5 constructions like trade depot (and even these can be placed one above the other if so desired). If not, any thought on the alternative floor plan design? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

:::: None of the constructions have blocking tiles any more from my experience playing. I haven't tested siege weaponry with that stuff, but none of the workshops have it, nor does any furniture. (walls and fortifications will of course obstruct movement [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 18:47, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
::::: Ok, I have removed them from v50. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I have added a basic side by side variant to [[Template:V50 workshop]] and [[Template:Building]] for testing, let us know if there any issues. Few notes:
* The default image naming scheme of <code>workshop-name.png</code> will likely conflict with existing images here or on commons, maybe another naming scheme should be used like <code>v50 workshop-name.png</code> as it is with ascii pictures.
* There is inconsistency in image size. If you want to use large zoomed images then toggle is best, otherwise they need to be all in native size (96px for 3x3).
* In the current version the code roughly centers the images and if there is a big image like with [[Siege workshop]] it drops to a new line --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

How about combining shortcut keys and the new menu icons:
<div style="color:white; font-size: large; text-shadow: -1px -1px 0 #000, 1px -1px 0 #000, -1px 1px 0 #000, 1px 1px 0 #000;">[[File:Ui b.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">b</div>[[File:Ui bo.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">o</div>[[File:Ui bol.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div>[[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div></div>
--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 02:24, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

:I worry that this is difficult to read (I read it as "boil" at first). I would rather use something like {{tl|k}} with a known background. What about something like this? [[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:0px;">{{k|l}}</div> or, alternatively, using flexbox without any overlap: [[File:Ui boll.png]]{{k|l}} —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:37, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Same, but that is the best I came up with. We can use the key or maybe someone can help improve the design. Also 'l' is hard to read even with {{t|key}}.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:05, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: I added a {{t|Menu icon}} to start things so others can have a go with it. Also any thoughts on the icon naming convention (their shortcut sequence), is there easier/better way? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:36, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::[[User:BarelyCreative]] updated the template: {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y}}. I think it looks good, thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::I like that, yeah. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::There were some places where it didn't make sense so display every icon all the time (like step-by-step guides), so I changed it slightly to allow display of fewer icons using "num" and counting from the end: <nowiki>{{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-;|num=2}}</nowiki> {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-|num=2}} [[User:BarelyCreative|BarelyCreative]] ([[User talk:BarelyCreative|talk]]) 09:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

==== Bizarre palette-swapping idea/prototype ====
No idea if this is a good idea, since it takes a bit of time to set up, and there might be some performance issues... and maybe display issues?

But take a look at this:
{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=amber}}

It's way to swap palettes on an image, although the image itself is a table, with each cell representing a pixel. The template itself looks like this:
<code><nowiki>{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=saffron}}</nowiki></code>
Input the pattern and desired palette name.

I've got a larger showcase here: [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase]]. Only did a rock pattern so far, but all palettes are implemented.
The major use for this would be on each stone, metal, wood, etc. type's page. The palette could be read directly from the raws. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 03:22, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

:From a technical perspective, my primary concern is indeed performance. Both on the server side and client side, a large number of tables that large (in terms of markup and cell count, that is) tend to be resource-intensive to generate and render. I saw your image-filtering experiments on [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]], and while that strikes me as a newer and less-backwards-compatible approach, it would probably be more resource-friendly.
:Is this color adjustment something the game is doing natively? i.e. does this accurately match what the game displays? I bet we could slap together an image-filtering extension (or find an existing one?) that can do this if needed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::Yeah that's what I suspected. The images the template creates are spot on, checked it against a screenshot I took of some mica rocks in-game. The css stuff is unfortunately totally incorrect, was cool to learn about it though, so not a complete waste of my time :p. The premium, in-game graphics are true sprites, basically patterns of indexed colors. Each of the in-game colors (which are significantly expanded over the 16 ascii colors, there's 116/117) there is a palette defined in "\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_descriptors_graphics\graphics\images\palettes.png". Each indexed color of the sprite is swapped for the corresponding color in the palette. Because of that, the css stuff doesn't work since it's doing the hue/saturation/brightness changes to the entire sprite.
::I've looked into an existing mediawiki extension, couldn't find anything. One thing I did't really look at is some type of lua script/module that would basically emulate what the game is doing. So some function that takes in the base image as well as the desired palette, and based on that finds and replaces each color. No idea what mediawiki's capabilities are on that front. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 05:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
:::We do have Scribunto installed now, so it's totally possible to do something in Lua too - forgot about that. I can add you to the group that grants access to edit the Module namespace if you want to give that a shot. If we use an extension, we'd probably need a custom one, similar to DFDiagram (or perhaps DFDiagram could be extended - it's in dire need of a rewrite anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:43, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::::I asked around on the mediawiki irc, I think scribunto/lua is a deadend, at least for taking an uploaded image and doing stuff to it with a lua script. However I did come up with this even more bizarre solution, using block elements. [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase2]], maybe less resource intensive? Definitely displays a lot worse though, probably unusable.
::::{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock2|palette-name=saffron}}
::::I dunno, maybe none of this is worth it and we should just write some external program to put all the images together offline, and then just mass upload. It wouldn't be ''that'' many... [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 06:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

====Is there an easy way to just paste images from the clipboard?====

I use KDE spectacle to take screenshots straight to the clipboard (after cropping) -- is there an easy way to just paste (and auto-upload) an image into an article? It would make it a lot easier to contribute images. [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:35, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Unfortunately there is not. I would be open to a MediaWiki extension to support this if someone finds one. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Looks like this could do it, but I haven't used it before: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SimpleBatchUpload [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 19:41, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

====Standards for adding graphical version screenshots and images====

Hello, new user looking into adding imagery from the new version. Is there a standard for quality of new screenshots or images? I noticed that at a certain zoom level (2 zooms in from the furthest zoomed-out view), the graphics appear crisp and 1:1 pixel scaled, and I would propose that all images be taken at this scale whenever possible. If they need to be displayed larger, they should be nearest neighbor scaled in a photo editing program at 100% increments (Microsoft Paint will do this if you first select the image rather than directly scaling the whole canvas). I would also propose that images should be cropped to conform to the 32x32 pixel grid when possible, though this could be problematic with so many new graphical elements exceeding the bounds of their tiles. I would say the best practice for capturing artwork for items, furniture etc. ought to be done in a 3x3 open area to avoid shadows from nearby walls, or else extracted from the raw files (if this doesn't run afoul of being able to re-create the graphical version using those assets).

I know that perfect is the enemy of good, and any documentation is better than none, but just thought I'd ask about this, and see if/where something like this ought to be posted. [[User:Unclesporky|Unclesporky]] ([[User talk:Unclesporky|talk]]) 13:58, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:It has been stated in [[Template:V50 workshop]] that <q>screenshots should be at the "native" resolution</q> but someone could edit the [[Screenshot]] page for best practice for the steam version. Or post some examples in [[Talk:Screenshot]] to find out what is best? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:21, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Hotkeys/Menu navigation ===
Most key bindings and menus have changed. Should the article reflect a) only the old version, b) only the GUI version or c) both? For example, [[Bridge|bridges]] used to be built via {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}, but now it's in Place strucutures {{k|b}} -> Constructions {{k|n}} -> Bridge {{k|b}}. What should be written in the article? Currently, it's {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}. I ''think'' it should be only b), but I am not sure if there will be differences regarding hotkeys or menus between the premium version and the free version and then, c) would be the most appropriate option. --[[User:Prometherus|Prometherus]] ([[User talk:Prometherus|talk]]) 10:16, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: Not sure. I wish the classic release soon --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 16:45, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: Are you Toady's herald? Looks like it was just released! [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:18, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: And our questions are answered, the old hotkeys seem to have been thrown out. Part of me is disappointed (useless muscle memory) but also relieved (unified UI for both versions is good in general and for the wiki). [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:25, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: According to info, in a sort of 'demo version' at that. I'll wait a little while longer, for myself.[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::::It's unlikely that keybindings in it will change significantly. My vote is that we should include information for both premium and classic, everywhere. Hopefully the keybindings are not different between versions. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:26, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::Shouldn't it be based on the 50 or what verion the article is written for? [[User:Dominick|Dominick]] [[User_talk:dominick|(TALK)]] 18:42, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::: The keybindings seem to be consistent between versions, (haven't checked exhausitvely, but since the menu layout is the same I think it is a good assumption). Should also keep in mind/consider that not all actions have keybindings. An option would be write 'Click on the <Example Text> icon or press {{k|E}}' [[User:Koos|Koos]] ([[User talk:Koos|talk]]) 23:14, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

=== Removed features & concepts ===

Since they're removed concepts, I've set [[Room]] to be a redirect for [[DF2014:Room]] and created [[Template:Activity zones]] for the nav bar bedrooms, etc, and made the necessary changes to [[Bedroom]] for it. Is this the correct approach, before I go on much further? (also a note, if it is, then [[Template:v50_rooms]] probably needs to be deleted) I also imagine that considering the number of changes in the interface, that things like [[Adventure mode]] and related pages might best be truncated to "not in 50.03" and when it does make it across, being more deliberately brought over in pieces? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 06:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:Usually it is marked with [[Template:Removed_feature]]. For example: [[Dipscript]] or [[Party]]. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:45, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:: Ah, that's fair. Should that be mentioned in [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Versions#Redirects]]? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 10:03, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::I think the redirect policy mostly had in mind things that were removed a ''long'' time ago, like [[Tax collector]] and [[Economy]] (and the latter actually has a stub page as well). I guess we could clarify. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:34, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: The "current" redirects also cause the version box to incorrectly show that the current version has a page - e.g. [[23a:Cave_river]] shows a v50.04 version, but it's just a redirect back to that version. Similarly, what should happen to redirects like [[Clothes maker]], where a concept has evolved? It currently goes to [[23a:Clothes maker]] - that's correct if the user is trying to look up a very old concept, but if a new user is looking for "how to make clothes", they should be directed to [[Clothier]]. --[[User:Danny252|Danny252]] ([[User talk:Danny252|talk]]) 12:16, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: One should be careful with cv redirects. Most that were recently adjusted were unused plural forms (that should probably be deleted) but few like [[Crown]] needed that for backward compatibility. Removing the [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&type=revision&diff=279966&oldid=219482 cv part] means the the link on [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is now broken. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 22:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::If [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is about v0.31, it should not be using "main:" in its links - ''all'' of those links are going to pages about v50, not v0.31, regardless of whether the target is a redirect or not. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:37, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: You right, I removed it. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 17:55, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Crown cv redir issue is now fixed, I believe. As goes with such cases where one can simply revert the troublesome edit, unless I've mistepped, myself? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 23:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:Both [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=280026] and [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=279966] should not have had any effect, because "cv" is an alias to the main namespace now, just like "main". Proof: [[Crown]], [[cv:Crown]], [[main:Crown]]. It's possible caching is coming into play here, although I purged the redirect cache after making that alias change earlier this month... —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:02, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

I think there have been some changes not captured, but as a newb, I'm afraid to edit the page(s). A good example is Strawberry. I'm playing the Steam version right now and Strawberry plants are "not relevant to brewing" in Labor > kitchen > veg / fruit / leaves. Unless I'm mistaken and need to process them? Another example is the trade caravan = it seems the 3 square pathing no longer happens; it's just yak(s). 12:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC) 12:29, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
:Strawberries should be brewable according to the Raws.
:Trade wagons has been modified in v50. The first wagons will arrive at the same time your fort is becoming a barony. Until then, it's only pack animals and stairs are indeed fine. The [[Trading]] page needs a huge rework anyway... I'll try to do that next week. --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

<s>As far as I can tell, none of the workshop buildings in v50 have blocking tiles any more. There's a comment to the like in data/vanilla/vanilla_buildings/objects/building_custom.txt that says this "[BLOCK:1:0:0:0] workbenches no longer block". Hesitant to update that template as I'm not sure if it's referenced for all of the old versions too. </s> [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 05:54, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
: A new template has been created: {{tl|V50 workshop}} --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::Thanks! In general, I would like to delegate the switching responsibility to the template (like how {{tl|creaturelookup/0}} works), but in cases where the parameters diverge significantly like with workshops, it could make sense to make an entirely new template. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

=== creature infobox prototype (moved) ===

Check it out, I made a temporary template and added it to the [[cow]]s page. Now it shows the sprites (but not the zombified versions yet). I wanted to show everyone a prototype of what v50 creature infoboxes should look like. Or at least something similar to it. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:11, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
:Hi, I'm new to editing wikis but I have done a bit of work with sprite sheets and I've been going through the DF data files to find the different graphics hoping to help with the animal pages. I've thrown together a template with grass and a few nature sprites (plants, a tree, and a rock) for size reference but I'm unsure how large the 'display' tiles in the middle of the template should be to suit all animals. I can see in the sprite sheets that some land animals have an adult and child sprite, so two tiles. Others have a male, female, and child, but after seeing you include the zombie cows I'm unsure if I should make it twice the size to add them too. Alternatively, I could grab some tiles from the haunted biomes for the zombie animals and make a separate template for a side-by-side comparison. Either way, let me know if this helps. I'd like to help with other graphics too as we add the premium tilesets but the animals seemed the easiest to tackle with me being new to wiki editing. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::@Zippy, I am a bit perplexed about the purple cows. Why do we need a zombified version of creatures on every page?
::@UristTheSeventh, we can use all the help. Maybe post an example, so that we can have something to compare and contrast.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::@Jan Here are the examples:
:::[[File:Creature template.png]] [[File:Armadillo.png]] [[File:Seagull.png]]
:::It'll need to be wider or arranged differently for different creatures with more that two sprites or for multi-tile creatures. I can also do an aquatic and air themed template for swimming and flying creatures. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])

=== When do we remove the migration note on specific pages? ===

At what point can we remove the "this page was auto migrated from v47" warning? There are a bunch of small pages that are more or less accurate, if I've reviewed them, can I go ahead and remove the warning? [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Yes, feel free to remove it if you think all content is accurate. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Any info on fixing "creature description not found?" ===

I see this issue on most creature pages, it seems to be due to a lookup that's not currently functioning? Cows interestingly doesn't have this issue but I couldn't figure out how to recreate whatever fix it's editor did. --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 00:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:That is the missing raws issue described above. Cow was fixed by the addition of [[cow/raw]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:28, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::Ah makes sense, not fully used to the language of wikis yet so I read over it while looking. To put this bit of questioning to rest for any future readers, is it correct that it's fine to update any raws manually, though it will be done automatically at some point? --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 07:48, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Yes. I'm circling back to work on a script right now, so not much point in doing it if you're reading this. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::This should be fixed now. If you continue to see pages with problems, you can try [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Purge purging the cache]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:59, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Adventurer Mode related sections ===

The topic has already been discussed [[#Removed features & concepts|above]], but I don't see a clear line on what to do with article sections that mention Adventurer Mode. Like for example in [[Butcher#Adventurer_mode|Butcher]].

'''a) Truncate''' or '''b) leave in place with a mention''' that the mode is not yet present IG but will be added in a future update?

Personally I think option b) is better, because I think it's silly to undo some work just to reintroduce it a few weeks later, with the necessary corrections. Even if a copy/paste of a previous version takes ~15 seconds, considering the number of articles that need to be corrected, it would be a bit of a waste of time.--[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

== Toggleable image ==

Any objections/comments to using this template for now for toggling between classic and premium images? I'd probably rename it to "Template:Premium-classic thumb image". I'm sure someone can come up with a better UI eventually, but should be easy to migrate at that point. I also think we should use the same customtoggle class for this and for the infobox. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 23:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png
}}

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png|
caption=My caption|
width=100px
}}

:This looks nice to me! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

: Good initiative. From the top of my head:
:* I suggest using a shorthand, no one wants to type 'Premium-classic thumb image'.
:* If we end up using toggle for infoboxes (not sure where we headed there), then I agree definitely same custom toggle class should be used for all, thus allowing to switch premium-classic view on the whole page at a click.
:* The button part on a separate row isn't pretty, creating a lot of dead space that can be used by the text. Are we set on the label 'toggle ascii'? Classic isn't Ascii per se, maybe we can use a 'toggle' with a tooltip {{tooltip|for example|does bla bla bla}}, or maybe we can get rid of the text and have a smaller icon button ([[User:Jan/sandbox#Metal_example|two examples]]).
: I hope that helps. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

:: I added [[Template:Dual image]] with some of your suggestions. Agree that it's not super pretty, feel free to try something different.

::* I put the toggle in the caption mostly because I gave up on trying to make a more sophisticated replacement for the default thumb image behavior, I'm sure someone with better wiki-fu could put together something more intelligent.
::* I cut the text down to just "Toggle"; I think the best solution would be a small graphic showing the old and new dwarf icons with arrows between them. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 19:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

{{Dual image|
premium=File:DFwiki5by53by3farm.png|
classic=File:Quickstart_layout_3.png|
width=100px|
caption=A 5x5 room with a 3x3 farm plot
}}
::: I updated the layout, now it should look just like a regular image thumb. I didn't had time to test it, if it doesn't work for you or you don't like it just revert the last change. cheers. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::::I don't know which part of this talk page to put this, but I added the ability to add icons to the v50 workshops template. Leaving the icon part blank will not break the template in any way. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 09:47, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions

2023-01-04T21:48:51Z

Vallode: /* v50 migration */

{{archive|
# [[DF Talk:Versions/Archive 1|Page 1]]}}

== Version 0.31.19 starts a new DF generation? ==

My reading of Toady's comments on the release of 0.31.19 is that it came out basically because he felt it would take too long to get DF all the way to 0.32. With the ore changes, the sitefinder changes, the addition of grazing and several different industries, there's a lot of changes between 31.18 and 31.19. So I'm thinking it might be a good idea to call it the first release of DF2011 - and what we refer to as "DF2010" would then become 0.31.18.

Thoughts? --[[User:DeMatt|DeMatt]] 07:06, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

==Revisiting Redirects==

I wasn't around when the redirect policy was created, and I'm having trouble understanding the rationale. The example claims that linking [[Main:Cheese]] to [[cv:Cheese maker]] is problematic...but mainspace only ever redirects to the current version. If the best target in the current version is cheese maker, why not link to it directly? (It's not, at least for Cheese, since [[DF2012:Cheese]] exists now.) The explanation seems to be claiming that 40d articles that link to Cheese will follow the Mainspace link--but that hasn't been the case for a long while now. Articles in 40d automatically link against other articles in 40d, so that version remains internally consistent no matter where mainspace links to in the current version. For a current example, what do we gain by linking [[Main:Mead]] to [[cv:Mead]] and linking [[DF2012:Mead]] to [[DF2012:Alcohol]]?

If this really is just an outdated procedure, I recommend we drop the mummery and allow mainspace to link to cv:(best target). Double redirects ''may'' work (sometimes, but [[Main:Mead]] demonstrates a common problem where automatic redirection fails), but if they are unnecessary I think they should be avoided, partly because of problems like [[Main:Mead]] and partly because of the effort required to protect double redirects from users who believe they are problematic.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:16, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

:I was just thinking that. I'm currently attempting to write a basic extension to eliminate the need for mainspace redirects entirely, although Mediawiki's class structure may make this more difficult than I had hoped (the only method I've found for resolving redirects takes the ''article text'' instead of a title, e.g. "#REDIRECT ..."). I do agree that the current situation with redirects isn't ideal, so I'm hoping this will work better (once I get it to work). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:42, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Okay, that wasn't quite as clear as I meant it to be. In general, I think this is a tricky situation. Mediawiki wasn't designed to have five content namespaces, and certainly not chains of redirects between them. The problem that was pointed out in the [[DF:REDIR|policy]] is the fact that with:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
pages in the cv: namespace can't use [[<nowiki/>foo]], since the namespace links modification causes it to be treated as [[<nowiki/>cv:foo]] instead, which doesn't exist. The current suggested solution is this:
Main:Foo -> cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
This fixes the problem of [[<nowiki/>foo]] not working on cv pages, but creates issues with double redirects not always working. Another solution, which is more intuitive to new editors, is:
Main:Foo -> cv:Bar
cv:Foo -> cv:Bar
Both require creating two redirects. The first method has the advantage of ''ensuring'' that the cv redirect exists (otherwise, main:foo would be a redlink), while the second has the advantage of working more reliably in a couple cases.

What I'm trying to do is make main:Foo "jump" to cv:Foo when cv:foo exists, ''even if main:foo doesn't exist'' (basically it would treat all mainspace pages as redirects to cv pages, but only if the cv page exists and not the mainspace page). I had main:Bar jumping to cv:Bar fine, but if cv:Foo redirected to cv:Bar, accessing main:Foo would mysteriously stop at cv:Foo even if I increased the redirect limit. What I'm trying to do now is follow the redirects internally, without relying on Mediawiki to do it automatically - unfortunately, that has proved to be harder than I had hoped (and I sent my web server into an infinite loop while trying). I will try to work on this some more when I get a chance, although I'm not sure when that'll be yet :(. For now, feel free to fix broken double mainspace redirects as necessary, as long as redirects in the DF2012 namespace stay pointing to the right page (and new mainspace redirects get added in the DF2012 namespace too). --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

:You're treating cv like a namespace--it's not. It is simply shorthand for "fill in the current version here". [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Briess&diff=182404&oldid=181281 As I discovered a long time ago on a server not far away], linking from Main:Foo to cv:Foo tends to break redirection chains. If, instead of linking to cv:Foo, you link to DF2012:Foo, it might just work. It would, of course, be better if your patch could evaluate cv itself, but even if you have to hardcode the current version it's a single point of maintenance that requires update very infrequently. (For that matter, we could probably dispense with the cv hack entirely and just have a bot update mainspace links from DF2012 to DF201X when we switch to a new version.)--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:05, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
::I know cv isn't a namespace - I was just trying to avoid future confusion when the DF2012 namespace changes. It's interesting that changing "cv" to "DF2012" fixes some broken redirects, although I've found that simply making an edit to a broken redirect can usually fix it as well. I've actually had the most problems with double redirects when the second one (in the DF2012 namespace) doesn't use the DF2012 prefix (e.g. main:Foo containing <nowiki>[[cv:Foo]] and DF2012:Foo containing [[Bar]]</nowiki>). I'd rather keep the cv alias even if it isn't necessary for mainspace redirects when I get the patch to work, since it makes it easier to refer to the current version of the page (for example, several MDF articles contain links to a vanilla page for things that don't change in the mod).
::Also, using aliases like "cv" is supported by Mediawiki; in fact, several WMF wikis use them (for example, "[[wikipedia:WP:Redirects|WP:Redirects]]" on Wikipedia). It's quite likely that Mediawiki isn't processing double redirects using aliases correctly, though, since that's uncommon on most wikis. --[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:35, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

In light of the lack of support for the current redirect policy, I propose we replace the current redirect section with:

:Mainspace article pages should use the cv: alias when redirecting to a versioned page, which will automatically update the link when a new version is released. For example, page "Main:Foo" should redirect to page "cv:Bar" (where "Bar" is the page that best describes the topic Foo in the current version).

:Pages in mainspace should only redirect to an older versioned page if that content no longer exists in the current version of the game (e.g. [[Cave river]], [[Chunk]]). In these cases the cv: alias cannot be used.

:Pages inside a versioned namespace should not use the cv: alias. Instead, they should redirect to the best page within that versioned namespace (e.g. [[DF2012:Dodging]], [[v0.31:Drink]]).

:Due to limitations of the wiki software, double redirects should be avoided if possible. When fixing double redirects in mainspace, please make sure to use the cv: alias as appropriate.

If no one objects, I will make this change in a few days.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:21, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

:Okay with me. It may be worth mentioning that double redirects only really need to be changed when they don't work (since changing a lot of redirects that work isn't necessary), but I think it's clearer and more relevant than the current policy. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Done.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:55, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I was finally able to get my extension to work after being motivated by one too many malfunctioning redirects. It now causes nonexistent pages in the main namespace to behave exactly like redirects to their DF2012 counterparts (when linked to, accessed directly, and transcluded). Double redirects also work (up to 100, in fact, although that was a temporary safety measure that I'll probably change). This means we'll be able to safely get rid of all mainspace redirects (redirects that redirect to something other than "cv" will still function if not deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:20, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
:What about articles which don't exist in the current version but do exist in older versions? Will those still need mainspace redirects, or will your extension be able to automatically redirect them to v0.31/40d/23a? --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] ([[User talk:Quietust|talk]]) 01:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
::It ignores all mainspace pages that actually have content, including redirects, so pages like [[masons guild]] won't be affected (unless deleted). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:47, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Done and deployed. [[Cat]] is still treated as a redirect, even though I just deleted it (try clicking on the "redirected from" link). Pages that exist are ignored, so [[Masons guild]] and [[History of Dwarf Fortress]] still function normally (as a redirect to a 23a page and a non-redirect, respectively). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm sending around a bot right now to delete all redirects of the format "foo -> cv:foo" (a surprising number don't fit this format, so I'm leaving them alone for now). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:43, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

:I'm confused. Do we use double redirects or not? Is there a single place we define our linking policy (including redirects), and is it updated?
:I had trouble linking to [[Consolidated_development]] in [[v0.34:Dragon]]. It kept pointing to v0.34:Consolidated_development, which does not exist. I ended up linking to Main:Consolidated_development to make it work. --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] ([[User talk:Nahno|talk]]) 10:18, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

::That's a separate problem altogether - links in the versioned namespaces (v0.34, v0.31, 40d, 23a) automatically link to pages within their namespace. I may be able to set up a fallback to mainspace once I'm able to deploy again, but for now the "main:" alias is the intended solution. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 11:36, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

== Google often directs people to the 0.31 page ==

I've noticed a couple of times that finding a wiki page from an external search will often drop me onto a page from an older version. Is it possible to mitigate this somehow for new players? I could imagine something like redirecting old:Bar -> cv:Bar unless the user has come from old:Foo; no idea if that would actually work though. [[User:PeridexisErrant|PeridexisErrant]] ([[User talk:PeridexisErrant|talk]]) 11:48, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

:As a temporary solution, I could write a script that displays a banner of some kind if the user came from an external site. I'll ask Briess if he can do anything on the server level to increase the weighting of the current version's pages. (Obviously there are situations where people are looking for old pages, like [[23a:dungeon master]], so we don't want to disable indexing entirely on old pages.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:03, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

== DF2014? ==

As Toady [http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ draws closer to a new release], it might be worthwhile to discuss the addition of a new version to the wiki. The upcoming release covers two years of changes and introduces a number of new plants, foods, drinks, multi-tile trees, climbing, jumping, etc., so it is likely to have significant changes from the current DF2012. To avoid having people start new pages (and lose all the effort spent refining the prior version's page), I think it would be best to have a bot automatically copy over the DF2012 pages as a starting point for DF2014. I would suggest that these copied pages include a noticebox template mentioning that the content may be outdated, so that we can easily track which pages have been reviewed. I think either the {{tl|version check}} or {{tl|old}} template would work. --[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:43, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

:This is what [[User:QuietBot]] did after the 0.34 release, so it's certainly possible to use the same script to migrate to DF2014. I would like a way of tagging migrated pages, since inaccuracies in some pages went unnoticed for months after they were migrated. Since {{tl|old}} is already in use, {{tl|version check}} may be a better solution (it can be reworded slightly, or we can make a separate template for DF2014 migration). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:23, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
:Made [[Template:DF2014 migrated]] as an example. Any thoughts? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:32, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

== Redirects inconsistency ==

Following a redirect is supposed to be exactly the same as going straight to the page it redirects to, but this actually isn't the case:
* Go to [[Seeds]] and you get [[v0.34:Seed]] (outdated)
* Go to http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Seeds&redirect=no and click on the link and you get to [[DF2014:Seed]] (current)
So if you search for "seed", the top result is the DF2014 version. But search for "seeds" and you get the redirect, which sends you to the outdated page instead. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

While I'm talking about redirects, it seems redirects to sections don't work: see [[DF2014:How do I manage my seeds and crops]]. I know MediaWiki is capable of this trick because Wikipedia does it. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 23:32, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

:I have absolutely no idea why [[seeds]] redirects to a v0.34 page - it could be a Mediawiki bug. The section links issue is due to a known issue in the redirect extension we use, which has yet to be fixed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:01, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
:It looks like deleting both [[Seeds]] and [[DF2014:Seeds]] fixed things (by allowing AutoRedirect to handle the redirects instead). Feel free to tag any others with {{tl|bad redirect}}. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::It gets stranger. [[Vial]] redirects explicitly to [[cv:Flask]] which displays (when you look at it with &redirect=no) as [[DF2014:Flask]], but still goes to the v0.34 version. It seems redirects interpret the cv: pseudo-namespace (or whatever it's called) in an outdated way. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 18:08, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
::I've added a note to this page about this issue. If it gets resolved, the note should be removed. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 21:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

==Reorganizing versions==

The internet deals with moved content... poorly. Google is still linking to v0.34 pages more than a year after the switch to "DF2014", and even the wiki software still has cached links pointing to the old version pages.

I propose reorganizing versions on the wiki to avoid moving content whenever possible. Instead of having a temporary "current version" namespace that changes occasionally, all the current information gets promoted to the Main namespace. When the next version split occurs, the Main articles as of a certain revision number can be copied to the newly-created permanent "old version" namespace, while all the current information remains in Main. This not only fixes the link rot issue, but it has a few other benefits as well: fewer administrative tasks, no lockdown (a historical version of the Main pages can be copied at any point, even if the Main articles are already modified for the new version), almost all the article history is maintained in the Main article (instead of being spread unevenly across multiple versions), no "temporary" namespaces are needed, fewer problematic long redirect chains, and hopefully less user confusion (since Main gets priority in search results, etc.).

As an example, today we would not have a DF2014 namespace (which is good because "temporary" namespaces historically disappear anyway). If you ran a search for [[seed]] you'd end up at Main:seed, which would have all the current information on seeds. The version box at the top of the page would still link to the older versions of the seed article. When a new version is released, an admin would choose a revision number and copy the Main:seed article as it exists at that revision number to v0.40:seed. That's it. One historical copy that needs little to no new editing, and zero redirections/moves.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 19:02, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

:Makes sense to me. It would involve a lot of work, though (e.g. fixing templates and categories to account for the current version being in mainspace), although that should be doable thanks to {{tl|category}}, {{tl|version switch}}, etc.. A bot could be set up to copy revisions from before a release date as well, which would be more difficult (and maybe slower) than a direct copy, but not severely. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:24, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

:Actually, there are a few issues with that, namely that there wouldn't be an easy way to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned mainspace pages. There are ways to resolve Google search priority (we can exclude pages from older versions from search engine results if there are newer versions of those pages available, for example). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:47, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::There aren't very many non-versioned mainspace pages, and determining if a page is versioned is as simple as looking for the version template and/or categories added by the version template (e.g. copy [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Category:Current this category] instead of Main:*). The problem with "suggesting" newer pages to Google is that they obviously aren't crawling our wiki regularly (if they were, the fact that the mainspace redirects point to new pages would automatically be picked up). Even if your Google hints worked they wouldn't do anything for all the other broken links out on the 'net.--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:35, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: Google actually crawls the wiki constantly - we probably get crawl hits from google for a continuous block of 2-3 hours per day, each and every day. Why they are slow to update is beyond me though. I can't remember why we didn't do this initially, but there was a technical limitation involved if I remember correctly. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] ([[User talk:Briess|talk]]) 22:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

::: There are <meta> tags that can be used to hide pages from search results (for search engines that recognize them, that is). Searching for {{tl|av}} or [[:Category:Current]] might work, although we'd have to make sure all of the DF2014 pages include that (some pages don't, particularly some disambiguation pages, although all of them should). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:53, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

:Is there a particular reason main and current are separate to begin with?—[[User:CLA|CLA]] ([[User talk:CLA|talk]]) 00:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

::It's mostly intended to distinguish between versioned and non-versioned pages and make version-related templates simpler to work with, since every versioned page has a namespace. I wasn't active here in 2010 when this system was created, so Briess and Emi would know more.
::Another issue I just thought of with Loci's suggestion is categories - currently, categories like [[:Category:Animals]] are used to organize the versioned sub-categories. Sure, we can change {{tl|Category}} to categorize mainspace pages in [[:Category:v0.40:Animals]] or [[:Category:DF2014:Animals]], but that would be less straightforward because there wouldn't be a namespace with that name (until pages are migrated when a newer major version is released). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 13:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

:Moving current pages to the main namespace sounds like a great idea. -[[User:Jecowa|Jecowa]] ([[User talk:Jecowa|talk]]) 20:47, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Another thought: dealing with migrating redirects could be difficult with this proposal - specifically, determining which redirects should be migrated to a versioned namespace. Redirects can't contain {{tl|av}}, at least not before ``#REDIRECT``. I ''think'' it would be possible to copy pages in two stages, though - all non-redirects first, then all redirects whose targets were also copied. Thoughts? Anything I'm missing? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:41, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Some subpages (particularly /raw and /Edit notice) also deliberately lack {{tl|av}}, although those shouldn't be too hard to handle. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

:Redirect pages (and all other edge cases I've looked at) can be included in categories (like [[:Category:Current]]) to determine whether or not they should be copied into an archival version. But if the redirects are "properly qualified" then they can all be copied over blindly. Mainspace redirects pointing to versioned information should use a blank namespace (which will be automatically constrained to the archival namespace); mainspace redirects pointing to unversioned information should use an explicit "Main" (which will automatically link back to the unversioned page). Then, when [[[[Toady]]]] gets copied to [[[[v0.4x:Toady]]]] it will point back to [[[[Main:Toady One]]]]. Meanwhile, [[[[Beer]]]], copied to [[[[v0.4x:Beer]]]], will properly point to [[[[v0.4x:Alcohol]]]].--[[User:Loci|Loci]] ([[User talk:Loci|talk]]) 20:00, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

::I think qualifying redirects is the best solution here - categorizing redirects manually is another possible source of errors, since categories (or a lack thereof) would only be visible on the redirect page itself, and [[:Category:Current]] is a hidden category. Copying over mainspace redirects into versioned namespaces would also resolve some issues that have come up due to those not reliably existing currently. I should be able to set up a bot script to add "main:" to current mainspace redirects (and it shouldn't break anything, since those redirects go to other mainspace pages anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:57, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

(Note: I wrote all of this without noticing the previous discussion above.) I was wondering, when the wiki creates a new namespace for a major release again, if it is possible to ''not'' create a namespace for the next current version (e.g. "DF202x") and instead have the mainspace articles (which are currently redirects) become the new cv and move the content there. Therefore, [[cv:Cat]] would just be "[[Cat]]" (or [[Main:Cat]]).

Certain namespace-related templates like [[Template:Ns/0]] would need to be changed, though nothing significant as far as I know. For most cases, any "DF2014" would be replaced with "Main" or even blank. There's also multiple extensions handling the current namespace system and they may need to be modified too, though I'm not sure if or how much. I'm guessing based on the discussions above that it will change stuff up.

My reason is the current namespace is increasingly becoming more anachronistic. "DF2014" could be misinterpreted as "this page is about the 2014 version of the game" or "this page was last updated in 2014", which I've seen a few people in forums mention. Granted that [[Template:Av]] is on the top of very article, I still think the namespace is inconsistent with the recentness of the article. But how is this related to what I'm asking for? Let's say we continue the current system: if we happen to do a new namespace change this year and create DF2020, the next major release (after graphics/UI) will be mythgen, which is estimated to take several years to develop (the Big Wait), and so the anachronism will start over again. The proposed way will prevent this from occurring for the next major release and every release thereafter.

I think the confusion with having a namespace that becomes old-fashioned overtime supersedes the confusion with not marking current versioned articles with a namespace. Most users just search "Cat" on the search bar and naturally expect to get information about the latest release of DF. So if users go a page that's just titled "Cat", they won't expect outdated info about cats from a previous release. That's how the current system works anyways. We'll be skipping the two-step process that we have now. It'll make several wiki tasks much simpler as well. Editors can create new articles for current versions without remembering to add a namespace. It'll fix any existing issues with (double) redirects; instead of [[Main:Kitten]] redirecting to [[cv:Kitten]], which goes to [[DF2014:Kitten]], which then redirects to [[DF2014:Cat]], [[Main:Kitten]] would just redirect to [[Main:Cat]]. And the cv: alias will no longer be necessary since "cv:" = "Main:" and will be forever.

There's no need to differentiate the current version and previous versions with a namespace for the current version is what I'm saying. Articles of previous versions will retain their respective namespaces. Users will still type "40d:Cat" to go to the 40d version of the article, but if they want the current version, they'll just type "Cat" (like now). The mainspace containing the "live" version of an article is natural and would create no uncertainty when browsing the wiki. And it would simplify the wiki somewhat and future-proof this anachronism problem. As a bonus, this change will also prevent web search engines from showing previous version pages when typing "DF cat" or something. (This isn't happening right now as DF2014 has been the current namespace for ~6 years, but it'll happen again when everything moves to a new namespace.)

This is the gist of it, and I may have ignored most of the problems with this proposal. I have personally wished for the whole version namespacing be made less complicated and have been seeking for a solution, and I feel like this is the best way to go about in the future. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:27, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:<s>Whoops, looks like Loci already proposed this exact thing long ago. I definitely missed that discussion and should have checked first. My apologies. I'll move my text to that section and remove this one. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:36, 14 August 2020 (UTC)</s> Done. – [[User:Doorkeeper|Doorkeeper]] 21:40, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:The main issue I have with that is that putting pages about the current version in a namespace also differentiates between those pages and pages not about ''any'' version (for example, [[Toady One]] does not need a 40d or v0.34 page). Yes, we can use {{tl|av}} to mark versioned pages, but people often forget to add that to new pages. The current system also allows determining whether a page is versioned or not from its title, which makes migrations a lot faster. Relying on {{tl|av}} would require either reading the content of every page (which would slow scripts down significantly) or cross-checking with the list of all pages including the template (feasible, but a bit more complicated, and still susceptible to missing templates). I suppose that manually fixing and migrating pages missing {{tl|av}} later wouldn't be too much work, though.
:I am definitely in favor of changing "DF2014" (or a new namespace) to "Current", though. I was in favor of "DF2014" in 2014, but I don't think it makes sense anymore, and "Current" seemed to be a popular alternative in both the DF2012 and DF2014 discussions on the matter. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

== Weird redirect behaviour ==

[[Pump stack]] redirects to [[cv:Screw pump#Pump stack]]. If you look at the redirect itself it says it redirects to DF2014 namespace, which is correct. But if you actually follow the redirect, it goes to v0.34 namespace. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 16:10, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
:Yeah, that's part of the issue described in the above section (the wiki caching part, not on Google's end.) —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 15:00, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

== v50 organization ==

Some wiki admins have had a talk on Discord and decided that the most sustainable path forward is to put content for all future versions of DF in the main namespace. We will be working on a bot to do this in the next few days. Feel free to chime in with suggestions here. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

:Is it maybe possible to do backwards-namespacing? Like we have a "Main" namespace, which people are free to update, and whenever there's a new version of DF the "Main" namespace is copied into a namespace for the then old version, much like how you'd branch a stable branch from a development branch when working with a git-project? [[User:Therahedwig|Therahedwig]] ([[User talk:Therahedwig|talk]]) 23:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

::Yeah, we could do that if we decide to. We were talking about doing that for v50, actually, and might still do something similar to preserve edit history if it doesn't end up being too hard to automate. Our hope is that we will not introduce new namespaces for v50 -> v5x, unless there is a serious breaking change (and hopefully there isn't one). But if we change our mind, one advantage of the type of migration you mentioned is that it can be done retroactively - we can copy historical revisions that were current at the time of the release, and would only lose some typo fixes made after the release that apply to earlier versions as well. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:11, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

ETA is < 24 hours. Doing some final checks on a migration script. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 07:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

: We should really have a task list as there are many things that change and need updating. Including but not limited to:
:* Most templates that used the previous namespace convention broke, including nav templates.
:* Many game files changed locations and their pages need to be updated.
:* Raws need to be updated.
:* Various features added, changed, removed.
:* UI has been changed -- though I am more inclined to wait for classic release to avoid extra work --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

"''Raws need to be updated.''" Including applying text wraparound where necessary, I suppose - more than a few of them have proven to be that special kind of...''difficult'' to navigate otherwise, shall we say? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 12:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:There is already a task list in the [[#v50 migration|section below]] that includes templates and raws, with an explanation. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

== v50 migration ==

The initial migration script is done. New content is in the '''main''' namespace, e.g. [[Cat]]. Old content is still at [[DF2014:Cat]]. History was migrated to the ''new'' (main namespace) articles.

I know several things are broken still. Please reply if you find any others:
<div style="border-left: 2px solid red">
* <s>Versioned templates haven't been migrated yet (e.g. {{tl|vermin}} on [[Ant]])</s>
** Fixed. Most were migrated by a bot.
* <s>Raws are missing on all pages that use them.</s>
** This also affects sidebars, such as on [[Cat]] and [[Microcline]].
** Update: The DFRawFunctions extension has been upgraded to include v50 raws, using the "v50:" prefix for filenames instead of "DF2014:". <s>I haven't finished a migration script to create the /raw pages themselves, but they can typically be created manually by copying the DF2014 /raw pages and changing "DF2014" to "v50" everywhere.</s> —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
** Update 2: Raws have been added for all pages! They were copied from the "DF2014" pages and had "DF2014" replaced with "v50", which appears to have worked from a spot-check, but let me know if you find any problems. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
* Some pages where the DF2014 page was a redirect to a main namespace page that contained content were migrated incorrectly.
** In this case, the main namespace page is usually a redirect to itself. This can be fixed by undoing LethosorBot's edit to the main namespace page, then copying the content to the DF2014 page.
** Update: most seem to have been fixed manually - thanks! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* <s>Some main-namespace talk pages redirect to DF2014 talk pages. Some of these redirects work, and some (usually older ones) do not.</s>
** Fixed with a bot. Some redirects from talk pages to other deleted talk pages are now broken, e.g. [[Talk:Above_ground]] (exists) -> [[Talk:Tile attributes]] (redlink). I am leaving them like that because they redirect to where the talk page should be created, but I'm also fine with people deleting them if they really want to. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
* {{tl|quality}} for new articles is disabled (see below)
* Some links from DF2014 to Main weren't working: e.g. the version selector [[DF2014:Mason's workshop]] was linking to [[DF2014:Main:Mason's workshop]] instead of [[Main:Mason's workshop]]. I'm not sure exactly why, but I fixed it with a change to the NamespaceLinks extension. Let me know if you spot similar broken links. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:19, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
</div>

—[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:54, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:The quality levels of the 50.03 pages seem to be missing. I'm not sure if that's covered under that first point. [[User:Trainzack|Trainzack]] ([[User talk:Trainzack|talk]]) 06:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::If the the [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Quality]] feature can be made to work with namespace scheme change, I suggest to automatically assign the lowest quality rating to all pages, alternately add the {{tl|old}} to all pages. Otherwise there will be a lot of pages that will fall through the cracks. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::I disabled {{tl|quality}} in the main namespace because it would require some rework to make the rating script and the template work properly there. Feel free to take a stab at the template. I will see what can be done on the extension side. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::What needs to be done on the template side? I'm not sure I see too big of an issue leaving pages as "unknown-quality" for now (or just change the default to tattered) until we get the rating script working. Is that script up anywhere, anything that could be helped with? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:10, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::They're already marked as unknown. Really the only issue I know of with the template is that it doesn't show up with some of the newer skins we added, and that can be fixed by getting rid of the absolute positioning. As for the script, it can be found at https://github.com/DF-Wiki/QualityRatings, and the issue is really only with the configuration system not recognizing the main namespace as valid. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:29, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::Great, I started having a crack at fixing the template with different themes. Is the preference to get some CSS going and then include it in the global stylesheet (i.e different styles per theme) or to try and get a "one size fits all" fix? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 08:14, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I would rather avoid custom site-wide CSS if we can. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I appreciate that, I think it's the simplest solution to add a few lines to common.css though. Unless there is a way to attach CSS specifically to a template, I saw a few extensions that allowed that but I'm not sure if any are present in the wiki at the moment. Regardless there already exists a class `div.topicon` that is specifically for the quality ratings, is there an issue with expanding this class to accommodate the themes? The list of themes where the quality rating display is broken/invisible: Citizen, MinervaNeue, MonoBook. [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 21:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

It appears some pages are redirecting recursively and never resolving correctly, like the [[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Character_table&redirect=no|character table]] and [[tileset repository]] 07:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
: Indeed, these can be caught here: [[Special:DoubleRedirects]] --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

It might be useful to change the notice title to "release information '''for editors'''" --[[Special:Contributions/142.59.195.176|142.59.195.176]] 10:26, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Can do. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::New here, hello. Should we set a date where we remove/only show the banner for logged in users. There are (some) pages that have 4 different notices about the upgrade. [[Engraving]] is one such page, the top banner states "information for editors", we then have the "this page was migrated" banner, a version selection which warns the article might be inaccurate, and a smaller banner saying the page might need to be updated. Quite a lot of screen space, I think we can start to slowly reduce the amount of warnings this coming month? [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 10:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Unfortunately, only showing info to logged-in users is difficult with how MediaWiki caching works. In terms of reducing warnings, there is a discussion [[Template_talk:ArticleVersion#.22Note_that_some_content_may_still_need_to_be_updated..22|here]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:43, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::As for [[Engraving]] specifically, the {{tl|old}} banner was actually present on [[DF2014:Engraving]] as well and got carried over with the migration. I removed it, and agree that it was redundant. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:46, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Main talkpages seem to redirect to DF2014 talk. Not sure if it is intentional but I like it, though we should pay attention when creating new discussion relating to v50 ending up there.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 14:18, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:That's unintentional. I specifically wrote the migration script to not move talk pages, but that has the side-effect of leaving any previously-created "Talk -> DF2014 talk" redirects intact. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Yo Lethosor, are we adding graphic sprites for the pages in some way? Or are we waiting for you to add some sort of new template or something? I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that the current templates don't allow that. Not sure if I'm allowed to change/create any templates either, as I don't want to break things for hundreds of pages. Edit: And IF the icons are allowed, should they be left alone, or 2×-3× sized like how the Minecraft wiki does it? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 14:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:Depends on which templates you mean. There are copyright concerns with uploading a premium sprite sheet, for instance. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 16:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm not talking about uploading an entire sprite sheet. I'm just talking about individual icons for each respective page. One image for cows, one for horses, one for werebeasts, etc. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 16:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::If we do that for every creature in the sprite sheet, that's not much different (in terms of copyright) from uploading the entire sprite sheet. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 17:09, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::Is there someone we can talk to about that? We finally get this new game with graphics, and then we can't use the very graphics of the game? No matter what the rules are, I'd say that would be the stupidest thing ever. I know I'm infamous here when it comes to copyright and images and stuff, but about 80% of game wikis out there are completely unofficial, and use game file images like no one's business. I can't imagine anyone's door being knocked on if we used the game's sprites, but I won't add any here until we have a go-ahead. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 17:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::...I've made noise in Mayday's direction on this matter, at least (prob an incorrect maneuver, ''but'').[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 17:55, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: I hope some sort of arrangement can be made so we can use the new sprites with permission/limits, just as we are using the raw files. Otherwise we are all (devs and editors alike) shooting ourselves in the foot here.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::I just thought of something. We're supposedly not allowed to upload entire sprite sheets, right? What if - for the time being - we just use a few of them for the purpose of testing out new infoboxes? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 21:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::I don't know. If someone could ask Kitfox and post the response here, that would be great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::::::I've reached out to Alexandra, but she hasn't answered yet. Until then I found these old approvals from the previous community manager, Feeona: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8243633#msg8243633 link1], [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=176640.msg8243642#msg8243642 link2]). Waiting for a newer response until we begin mass uploads is probably the politer option, but like Zippy said, it is also standard for wikis to use game sprites with less approval. I second their idea of trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. On the extreme off-chance (and I do think it is) Kitfox protests we can always remove these few. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:19, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::And here is a third, more official statement: ([http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg8249718#msg8249718 link3]). Perhaps that address of info@kitfoxgames.com is the better channel to ask for a confirmation, rather than Discord DMs, but I will be going to bed, so it is best if someone else does that. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 22:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::Thanks for tracking this down! Ok, sprites should be fine, but let's avoid uploading the entire premium tileset as a single image, for instance (as the forum thread says, "use common sense"). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::: Looks good, permission is always preferable over fairuse, I think it is a win win for all involved. I agree that we shouldn't upload entire sprite sheets (e.g. there is no reason to upload the windmill from every direction or whole construction phase for workshops) and that there are a lot of details that needs to be ironed out through testing. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 05:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::We have a green light on uploading all and any sprites. Their response to me can be seen [https://i.imgur.com/BhmHjzC.png here]. I'm sure someone else confirmed it before me. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:00, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Shifting temporarily to a new issue, is the documentation of [[Template:ArticleVersion]] outdated? It would seem so to me, since the current version no longer has its own namespace, with the templates needing updating being different ones. --[[User:Voliol|Voliol]] ([[User talk:Voliol|talk]]) 18:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
:I think it is still accurate enough. We left open the possibility of making another namespace in the future, albeit with a different migration strategy - see [[#v50 organization|above]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 21:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Some Changes to infoboxes might be needed. Too bad [[User:Doorkeeper]] isn't around. He did a great work with navbox project--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:52, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

I just realized that raw files aren't stored as regular wiki pages but loaded via the DFRawFunctions extension (hence the need to update). Good news it's going to be handled in bulk, consistently and relatively easy to updated. Even better it's Lethosor problem ;) Also I just realized that all the "raw files" (txt files in the new vanilla folder) are released into the public domain. Both are probably not news to the vets but I'll leave it here for those who less up to date like myself. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:35, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: I noticed that some templates aren't working properly in the new namespace, e.g. [[Basalt]] entry had its raw updated manually but the infobox fail to show any details. Cursory look suggest {{t|layerlookup/0}} need a minor tweak. This should do the work
:: Replace: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
:: With___: <nowiki>{{layerlookup/aux|{{</nowiki>:<nowiki>{{FULLPAGENAME}}/raw}}|uses={{{uses|}}}|wiki={{{wiki|}}}}}</nowiki>
: Not sure what the plan and ETA with raws update so I didn't touch this high usage template for now. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 08:11, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

::Please do feel free to make this update. I am still working on a script to create the <code>/raw</code> pages themselves. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be an idea to add to the Sitenotice to remove the {{tl|migrated article}} tag when an article has been fully updated? I see many articles that seem to be updated still have the tag. And/or advise to make use of the {{tl|verify}} for sections still in need of checking? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 10:12, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:Probably a good shout. The "see this page" link does include the detail on removing but we should more explicitly encourage removing the banner once a page has at least been looked over. [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 11:01, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

== v50 specific issues ==
=== Graphics===
Follow up on the use of game sprites and the need to trying it out with a few images to test the infoboxes. First sprite [[:File:Beds v50.png]] was uploaded and used on [[Bed]] entry. Any thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Seems like it should be rearranged to be horizontal. Also, has there been a serious discussion about copyright? Full screenshots are 100% fine, but you start going into a grey area when you upload pieces of a spritesheet. I'm of the opinion that it's all fine as long as it's inconvenient to reconstruct the full sheet from the individual images. Maybe a further restriction could be you shouldn't upload any of the art unless it's used in an infobox (maybe an exception for pieces of the UI). And one more restriction could be you shouldn't show everything, like in your bed example, maybe just the wooden bed is good enough, leave out the stone and metal, especially since those can only be made from strange moods. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:43, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::Actually, your bed image is kinda bad for showing off what a bed looks like because it doesn't show the pillow/blankets. That might point to cropped screenshots being the best path, although less convenient for the uploader, as you don't get details left out. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:46, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::I created a new license template [[Template:Copyright game]], based it on the way the RimWorld wiki does things. Call it a prototype, but it's probably how your bed image should be labelled. Indeed, I added it to it already. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]])

::: I agree that the horizontal arrangement would suit better here and that we should strive to represent how things look in-game. Otherwise, I am not too concerned about people being able to reconstruct anything (lets just say that ''anyone'' interested in that can get the real thing from the game files), also it seem we have permission to use the sprits on top of fairuse. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 19:55, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

::: Modifying the existing template to allow the inclusion of the new sprites is easy (Something like [https://ibb.co/zFXCrjd this]?) The big question is the matter of consistency is there any exceptions that will break the format (size wise with variant bloat for example), the sprite naming format, etc --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:44, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::: If we are going to show a variant for each material type, then maybe these should be added as separate images so we can add a tooltip for each image. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 20:49, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

:I've got another prototype going here and here: [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]] and [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox]]. (You'll need to add the css stuff to your own /vector.css). Basically it's a way to recolor images using css classes. No idea if there's a better way. Also, the real implementation would require a change to [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
:Should mention, there ''is'' a different way, just upload each image 16 times, one for each coloring. But maybe that's not very elegant. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 22:45, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

: It should be noted that soon the classic edition will be released, hence one should plan to have both the Premium and classic alongside in that little space --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:14, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::I'm looking into a tab extension to potentially support this in infoboxes. Perhaps [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Tabs Extension:Tabs]? I tried [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TabberNeue Extension:TabberNeue], but it displays a placeholder if JavaScript is disabled, which isn't great. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: The Neue Tabber seem to works pretty much like the old one (which fandom [https://coding-help.fandom.com/wiki/Tabber#Adding_images_into_tabbers still use]) defaulting to showing the first tab only. Quick look suggest that neue work the same, plus the notice that 'Tabber requires Javascript to function' warning? if so, and if it is a bother, then you should be able to edit out the tabberneue-noscript string in code. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 06:29, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: I much prefer your tabber solution, but if that fails we can also use the gallery slideshow mode. If so, beware it has no way to control image size so the images have to be maliciously uploaded using the exact same size. example:
<gallery mode="slideshow">
File:SteelSample.png
File:TinSample.png
File:ZincSample.png
File:GoldSample.png
</gallery> --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

==== adding premium set to Infobox ====
I am unclear where are we going with this? 
1) Will (A) tabs be implemented, (B) we be using mediawiki toggle [[Template_talk:V50_workshop|example]] for premium and classic/blocked, (c) put images side by side, or (d) something else? 
2) Also [[silver]] and [[Pig iron]] use very different image style for example. 
3) Anything else you want ? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

: Personally, I would love tabs to be implemented, but I think that side by side might be best for most. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 12:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
: Here is rough layout we can use. It should fit most buildings given the default sprite size. There is also a different floor plan for both (inspired by reddit)

{|
|- valign=top
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 5×5
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>
|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|colspan=2|<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">
[[File:Siege workshop.png|center|160px]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab"">
{|
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%; font-size: 125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Siege workshop}}</center>
|style="line-height: 1em; font-size: 125%;"|
{| style="border-spacing:4px;"
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:12px; height:12px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse; "
|+ 3×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc; "
|colspan=2 style="text-align: right;"|<div class="mw-customtoggle-infoboxtab mw-ui-button mw-ui-progressive" style="float:left; border-top-right-radius: 10px; border-top-left-radius:10px;">toggle</div>{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|- valign=top
|rowspan=2 style="width:50%;"|
<div class="mw-collapsible" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab">[[File:Carpenter's workshop.png]]</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-infoboxtab""><center>
{| style="font-size: 175%; border-spacing: 0; background-color: black; border: 2px solid black"
|- 
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|"|7:0:0}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|{{=}}|6:0:0}}
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"|
|-
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|]|0:0:1}}
| style="padding: 0; line-height: 1em"| {{Raw Tile|░|0:7:1}}
|}</center></div>
|
{| style="border-spacing:5px;"
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|-
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#b7b9bd; border:1px solid #545557;"|
| style="width:18px; height:18px; background-color:#86878a; border:1px solid #545557;"|
|}
|-
| style="text-align: center;" | Layout
|}
</div>
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×1
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:Screw_press.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Screw press}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Screw press}}</center>
|}
|
{| style="width:200px; height:100px; padding:10px; background-color:#eaecf0; border-collapse: collapse;"
|+ 1×3
|- style="border-bottom:2px solid #3366cc;"
| colspan=3 style="text-align:center;"|{{Tooltip|Hotkey|adasdasdasd}}: {{Key|b|o|g}}
|-
| style="border-right: 1px dotted #545557;"|[[File:water_wheel.png|32px|center|link=]]
| style="font-size:125%;"|<center>{{Template:Picture Water wheel}}</center>
| style="border-left: 1px dotted #545557;line-height:normal;"|<center>{{Template:Floor Plan Water wheel}}</center>
|}
|}
:Any thoughts on the direction and or any and all of its elements? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:16, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

::I kind of like side-by-side, if it fits. If anyone wants to implement a toggle button or tabs, I would ask that that be implemented in a template for now, so that e.g. we could change a toggle button to tabs in a single place if we decide to install an extension to support that. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

::: I noticed a comment saying that [[impassable tile]] are no longer used in v50, is that true for all constructions? If so, floor plans are no longer needed, making things much easier as we can fit everything in except the 5v5 constructions like trade depot (and even these can be placed one above the other if so desired). If not, any thought on the alternative floor plan design? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

:::: None of the constructions have blocking tiles any more from my experience playing. I haven't tested siege weaponry with that stuff, but none of the workshops have it, nor does any furniture. (walls and fortifications will of course obstruct movement [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 18:47, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
::::: Ok, I have removed them from v50. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I have added a basic side by side variant to [[Template:V50 workshop]] and [[Template:Building]] for testing, let us know if there any issues. Few notes:
* The default image naming scheme of <code>workshop-name.png</code> will likely conflict with existing images here or on commons, maybe another naming scheme should be used like <code>v50 workshop-name.png</code> as it is with ascii pictures.
* There is inconsistency in image size. If you want to use large zoomed images then toggle is best, otherwise they need to be all in native size (96px for 3x3).
* In the current version the code roughly centers the images and if there is a big image like with [[Siege workshop]] it drops to a new line --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 23:48, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

How about combining shortcut keys and the new menu icons:
<div style="color:white; font-size: large; text-shadow: -1px -1px 0 #000, 1px -1px 0 #000, -1px 1px 0 #000, 1px 1px 0 #000;">[[File:Ui b.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">b</div>[[File:Ui bo.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">o</div>[[File:Ui bol.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div>[[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:3px;">l</div></div>
--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 02:24, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

:I worry that this is difficult to read (I read it as "boil" at first). I would rather use something like {{tl|k}} with a known background. What about something like this? [[File:Ui boll.png]]<div style="position: absolute; bottom:-14px; right:0px;">{{k|l}}</div> or, alternatively, using flexbox without any overlap: [[File:Ui boll.png]]{{k|l}} —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:37, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Same, but that is the best I came up with. We can use the key or maybe someone can help improve the design. Also 'l' is hard to read even with {{t|key}}.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 03:05, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:: I added a {{t|Menu icon}} to start things so others can have a go with it. Also any thoughts on the icon naming convention (their shortcut sequence), is there easier/better way? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:36, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::[[User:BarelyCreative]] updated the template: {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y}}. I think it looks good, thoughts? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 18:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::I like that, yeah. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
::::There were some places where it didn't make sense so display every icon all the time (like step-by-step guides), so I changed it slightly to allow display of fewer icons using "num" and counting from the end: <nowiki>{{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-;|num=2}}</nowiki> {{Menu icon|b|o|l|y|sep=-|num=2}} [[User:BarelyCreative|BarelyCreative]] ([[User talk:BarelyCreative|talk]]) 09:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

==== Bizarre palette-swapping idea/prototype ====
No idea if this is a good idea, since it takes a bit of time to set up, and there might be some performance issues... and maybe display issues?

But take a look at this:
{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=amber}}

It's way to swap palettes on an image, although the image itself is a table, with each cell representing a pixel. The template itself looks like this:
<code><nowiki>{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock|palette-name=saffron}}</nowiki></code>
Input the pattern and desired palette name.

I've got a larger showcase here: [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase]]. Only did a rock pattern so far, but all palettes are implemented.
The major use for this would be on each stone, metal, wood, etc. type's page. The palette could be read directly from the raws. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 03:22, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

:From a technical perspective, my primary concern is indeed performance. Both on the server side and client side, a large number of tables that large (in terms of markup and cell count, that is) tend to be resource-intensive to generate and render. I saw your image-filtering experiments on [[User:Brightgalrs/vector.css]], and while that strikes me as a newer and less-backwards-compatible approach, it would probably be more resource-friendly.
:Is this color adjustment something the game is doing natively? i.e. does this accurately match what the game displays? I bet we could slap together an image-filtering extension (or find an existing one?) that can do this if needed. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 03:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::Yeah that's what I suspected. The images the template creates are spot on, checked it against a screenshot I took of some mica rocks in-game. The css stuff is unfortunately totally incorrect, was cool to learn about it though, so not a complete waste of my time :p. The premium, in-game graphics are true sprites, basically patterns of indexed colors. Each of the in-game colors (which are significantly expanded over the 16 ascii colors, there's 116/117) there is a palette defined in "\Dwarf Fortress\data\vanilla\vanilla_descriptors_graphics\graphics\images\palettes.png". Each indexed color of the sprite is swapped for the corresponding color in the palette. Because of that, the css stuff doesn't work since it's doing the hue/saturation/brightness changes to the entire sprite.
::I've looked into an existing mediawiki extension, couldn't find anything. One thing I did't really look at is some type of lua script/module that would basically emulate what the game is doing. So some function that takes in the base image as well as the desired palette, and based on that finds and replaces each color. No idea what mediawiki's capabilities are on that front. [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 05:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
:::We do have Scribunto installed now, so it's totally possible to do something in Lua too - forgot about that. I can add you to the group that grants access to edit the Module namespace if you want to give that a shot. If we use an extension, we'd probably need a custom one, similar to DFDiagram (or perhaps DFDiagram could be extended - it's in dire need of a rewrite anyway). —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:43, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::::I asked around on the mediawiki irc, I think scribunto/lua is a deadend, at least for taking an uploaded image and doing stuff to it with a lua script. However I did come up with this even more bizarre solution, using block elements. [[User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwapShowcase2]], maybe less resource intensive? Definitely displays a lot worse though, probably unusable.
::::{{User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/PaletteSwitch|templatename=User:Brightgalrs/Sandbox/Rock2|palette-name=saffron}}
::::I dunno, maybe none of this is worth it and we should just write some external program to put all the images together offline, and then just mass upload. It wouldn't be ''that'' many... [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 06:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

====Is there an easy way to just paste images from the clipboard?====

I use KDE spectacle to take screenshots straight to the clipboard (after cropping) -- is there an easy way to just paste (and auto-upload) an image into an article? It would make it a lot easier to contribute images. [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:35, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Unfortunately there is not. I would be open to a MediaWiki extension to support this if someone finds one. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
:: Looks like this could do it, but I haven't used it before: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SimpleBatchUpload [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 19:41, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

====Standards for adding graphical version screenshots and images====

Hello, new user looking into adding imagery from the new version. Is there a standard for quality of new screenshots or images? I noticed that at a certain zoom level (2 zooms in from the furthest zoomed-out view), the graphics appear crisp and 1:1 pixel scaled, and I would propose that all images be taken at this scale whenever possible. If they need to be displayed larger, they should be nearest neighbor scaled in a photo editing program at 100% increments (Microsoft Paint will do this if you first select the image rather than directly scaling the whole canvas). I would also propose that images should be cropped to conform to the 32x32 pixel grid when possible, though this could be problematic with so many new graphical elements exceeding the bounds of their tiles. I would say the best practice for capturing artwork for items, furniture etc. ought to be done in a 3x3 open area to avoid shadows from nearby walls, or else extracted from the raw files (if this doesn't run afoul of being able to re-create the graphical version using those assets).

I know that perfect is the enemy of good, and any documentation is better than none, but just thought I'd ask about this, and see if/where something like this ought to be posted. [[User:Unclesporky|Unclesporky]] ([[User talk:Unclesporky|talk]]) 13:58, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:It has been stated in [[Template:V50 workshop]] that <q>screenshots should be at the "native" resolution</q> but someone could edit the [[Screenshot]] page for best practice for the steam version. Or post some examples in [[Talk:Screenshot]] to find out what is best? --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:21, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Hotkeys/Menu navigation ===
Most key bindings and menus have changed. Should the article reflect a) only the old version, b) only the GUI version or c) both? For example, [[Bridge|bridges]] used to be built via {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}, but now it's in Place strucutures {{k|b}} -> Constructions {{k|n}} -> Bridge {{k|b}}. What should be written in the article? Currently, it's {{k|b}} -> {{k|g}}. I ''think'' it should be only b), but I am not sure if there will be differences regarding hotkeys or menus between the premium version and the free version and then, c) would be the most appropriate option. --[[User:Prometherus|Prometherus]] ([[User talk:Prometherus|talk]]) 10:16, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

: Not sure. I wish the classic release soon --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 16:45, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: Are you Toady's herald? Looks like it was just released! [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:18, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: And our questions are answered, the old hotkeys seem to have been thrown out. Part of me is disappointed (useless muscle memory) but also relieved (unified UI for both versions is good in general and for the wiki). [[User:Brightgalrs|Brightgalrs]] ([[User talk:Brightgalrs|talk]]) 18:25, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::: According to info, in a sort of 'demo version' at that. I'll wait a little while longer, for myself.[[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
::::It's unlikely that keybindings in it will change significantly. My vote is that we should include information for both premium and classic, everywhere. Hopefully the keybindings are not different between versions. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 18:26, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::Shouldn't it be based on the 50 or what verion the article is written for? [[User:Dominick|Dominick]] [[User_talk:dominick|(TALK)]] 18:42, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::: The keybindings seem to be consistent between versions, (haven't checked exhausitvely, but since the menu layout is the same I think it is a good assumption). Should also keep in mind/consider that not all actions have keybindings. An option would be write 'Click on the <Example Text> icon or press {{k|E}}' [[User:Koos|Koos]] ([[User talk:Koos|talk]]) 23:14, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

=== Removed features & concepts ===

Since they're removed concepts, I've set [[Room]] to be a redirect for [[DF2014:Room]] and created [[Template:Activity zones]] for the nav bar bedrooms, etc, and made the necessary changes to [[Bedroom]] for it. Is this the correct approach, before I go on much further? (also a note, if it is, then [[Template:v50_rooms]] probably needs to be deleted) I also imagine that considering the number of changes in the interface, that things like [[Adventure mode]] and related pages might best be truncated to "not in 50.03" and when it does make it across, being more deliberately brought over in pieces? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 06:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:Usually it is marked with [[Template:Removed_feature]]. For example: [[Dipscript]] or [[Party]]. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 07:45, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:: Ah, that's fair. Should that be mentioned in [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Versions#Redirects]]? [[User:HawkOwl|HawkOwl]] ([[User talk:HawkOwl|talk]]) 10:03, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::I think the redirect policy mostly had in mind things that were removed a ''long'' time ago, like [[Tax collector]] and [[Economy]] (and the latter actually has a stub page as well). I guess we could clarify. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 19:34, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: The "current" redirects also cause the version box to incorrectly show that the current version has a page - e.g. [[23a:Cave_river]] shows a v50.04 version, but it's just a redirect back to that version. Similarly, what should happen to redirects like [[Clothes maker]], where a concept has evolved? It currently goes to [[23a:Clothes maker]] - that's correct if the user is trying to look up a very old concept, but if a new user is looking for "how to make clothes", they should be directed to [[Clothier]]. --[[User:Danny252|Danny252]] ([[User talk:Danny252|talk]]) 12:16, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::: One should be careful with cv redirects. Most that were recently adjusted were unused plural forms (that should probably be deleted) but few like [[Crown]] needed that for backward compatibility. Removing the [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&type=revision&diff=279966&oldid=219482 cv part] means the the link on [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is now broken. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 22:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

:::::If [[v0.31:Tilesets]] is about v0.31, it should not be using "main:" in its links - ''all'' of those links are going to pages about v50, not v0.31, regardless of whether the target is a redirect or not. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 23:37, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:::::: You right, I removed it. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 17:55, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Crown cv redir issue is now fixed, I believe. As goes with such cases where one can simply revert the troublesome edit, unless I've mistepped, myself? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 23:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:Both [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=280026] and [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Crown&diff=prev&oldid=279966] should not have had any effect, because "cv" is an alias to the main namespace now, just like "main". Proof: [[Crown]], [[cv:Crown]], [[main:Crown]]. It's possible caching is coming into play here, although I purged the redirect cache after making that alias change earlier this month... —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:02, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

I think there have been some changes not captured, but as a newb, I'm afraid to edit the page(s). A good example is Strawberry. I'm playing the Steam version right now and Strawberry plants are "not relevant to brewing" in Labor > kitchen > veg / fruit / leaves. Unless I'm mistaken and need to process them? Another example is the trade caravan = it seems the 3 square pathing no longer happens; it's just yak(s). 12:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC) 12:29, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
:Strawberries should be brewable according to the Raws.
:Trade wagons has been modified in v50. The first wagons will arrive at the same time your fort is becoming a barony. Until then, it's only pack animals and stairs are indeed fine. The [[Trading]] page needs a huge rework anyway... I'll try to do that next week. --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

<s>As far as I can tell, none of the workshop buildings in v50 have blocking tiles any more. There's a comment to the like in data/vanilla/vanilla_buildings/objects/building_custom.txt that says this "[BLOCK:1:0:0:0] workbenches no longer block". Hesitant to update that template as I'm not sure if it's referenced for all of the old versions too. </s> [[User:AndrielChaoti|AndrielChaoti]] ([[User talk:AndrielChaoti|talk]]) 05:54, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
: A new template has been created: {{tl|V50 workshop}} --[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 13:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::Thanks! In general, I would like to delegate the switching responsibility to the template (like how {{tl|creaturelookup/0}} works), but in cases where the parameters diverge significantly like with workshops, it could make sense to make an entirely new template. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

=== creature infobox prototype (moved) ===

Check it out, I made a temporary template and added it to the [[cow]]s page. Now it shows the sprites (but not the zombified versions yet). I wanted to show everyone a prototype of what v50 creature infoboxes should look like. Or at least something similar to it. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:11, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
:Hi, I'm new to editing wikis but I have done a bit of work with sprite sheets and I've been going through the DF data files to find the different graphics hoping to help with the animal pages. I've thrown together a template with grass and a few nature sprites (plants, a tree, and a rock) for size reference but I'm unsure how large the 'display' tiles in the middle of the template should be to suit all animals. I can see in the sprite sheets that some land animals have an adult and child sprite, so two tiles. Others have a male, female, and child, but after seeing you include the zombie cows I'm unsure if I should make it twice the size to add them too. Alternatively, I could grab some tiles from the haunted biomes for the zombie animals and make a separate template for a side-by-side comparison. Either way, let me know if this helps. I'd like to help with other graphics too as we add the premium tilesets but the animals seemed the easiest to tackle with me being new to wiki editing. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])
::@Zippy, I am a bit perplexed about the purple cows. Why do we need a zombified version of creatures on every page?
::@UristTheSeventh, we can use all the help. Maybe post an example, so that we can have something to compare and contrast.--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::@Jan Here are the examples:
:::[[File:Creature template.png]] [[File:Armadillo.png]] [[File:Seagull.png]]
:::It'll need to be wider or arranged differently for different creatures with more that two sprites or for multi-tile creatures. I can also do an aquatic and air themed template for swimming and flying creatures. ~~[[User:UristTheSeventh|UristTheSeventh]] ([[User talk:UristTheSeventh|talk]])

=== When do we remove the migration note on specific pages? ===

At what point can we remove the "this page was auto migrated from v47" warning? There are a bunch of small pages that are more or less accurate, if I've reviewed them, can I go ahead and remove the warning? [[User:Kelvie|Kelvie]] ([[User talk:Kelvie|talk]]) 23:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
:Yes, feel free to remove it if you think all content is accurate. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Any info on fixing "creature description not found?" ===

I see this issue on most creature pages, it seems to be due to a lookup that's not currently functioning? Cows interestingly doesn't have this issue but I couldn't figure out how to recreate whatever fix it's editor did. --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 00:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:That is the missing raws issue described above. Cow was fixed by the addition of [[cow/raw]]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 02:28, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::Ah makes sense, not fully used to the language of wikis yet so I read over it while looking. To put this bit of questioning to rest for any future readers, is it correct that it's fine to update any raws manually, though it will be done automatically at some point? --[[User:Yallendallis|Yallendallis]] ([[User talk:Yallendallis|talk]]) 07:48, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Yes. I'm circling back to work on a script right now, so not much point in doing it if you're reading this. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
:::This should be fixed now. If you continue to see pages with problems, you can try [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Purge purging the cache]. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:59, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

=== Adventurer Mode related sections ===

The topic has already been discussed [[#Removed features & concepts|above]], but I don't see a clear line on what to do with article sections that mention Adventurer Mode. Like for example in [[Butcher#Adventurer_mode|Butcher]].

'''a) Truncate''' or '''b) leave in place with a mention''' that the mode is not yet present IG but will be added in a future update?

Personally I think option b) is better, because I think it's silly to undo some work just to reintroduce it a few weeks later, with the necessary corrections. Even if a copy/paste of a previous version takes ~15 seconds, considering the number of articles that need to be corrected, it would be a bit of a waste of time.--[[User:Halavus|Halavus]] ([[User talk:Halavus|talk]]) 14:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

== Toggleable image ==

Any objections/comments to using this template for now for toggling between classic and premium images? I'd probably rename it to "Template:Premium-classic thumb image". I'm sure someone can come up with a better UI eventually, but should be easy to migrate at that point. I also think we should use the same customtoggle class for this and for the infobox. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 23:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png
}}

{{User:NiftyManiac/Sandbox/TemplateDualImage|
premium=File:Quickstart-finder.png|
classic=File:Quickstart-finder-partial.png|
caption=My caption|
width=100px
}}

:This looks nice to me! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

: Good initiative. From the top of my head:
:* I suggest using a shorthand, no one wants to type 'Premium-classic thumb image'.
:* If we end up using toggle for infoboxes (not sure where we headed there), then I agree definitely same custom toggle class should be used for all, thus allowing to switch premium-classic view on the whole page at a click.
:* The button part on a separate row isn't pretty, creating a lot of dead space that can be used by the text. Are we set on the label 'toggle ascii'? Classic isn't Ascii per se, maybe we can use a 'toggle' with a tooltip {{tooltip|for example|does bla bla bla}}, or maybe we can get rid of the text and have a smaller icon button ([[User:Jan/sandbox#Metal_example|two examples]]).
: I hope that helps. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

:: I added [[Template:Dual image]] with some of your suggestions. Agree that it's not super pretty, feel free to try something different.

::* I put the toggle in the caption mostly because I gave up on trying to make a more sophisticated replacement for the default thumb image behavior, I'm sure someone with better wiki-fu could put together something more intelligent.
::* I cut the text down to just "Toggle"; I think the best solution would be a small graphic showing the old and new dwarf icons with arrows between them. [[User:NiftyManiac|NiftyManiac]] ([[User talk:NiftyManiac|talk]]) 19:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

{{Dual image|
premium=File:DFwiki5by53by3farm.png|
classic=File:Quickstart_layout_3.png|
width=100px|
caption=A 5x5 room with a 3x3 farm plot
}}
::: I updated the layout, now it should look just like a regular image thumb. I didn't had time to test it, if it doesn't work for you or you don't like it just revert the last change. cheers. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::::I don't know which part of this talk page to put this, but I added the ability to add icons to the v50 workshops template. Leaving the icon part blank will not break the template in any way. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 09:47, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Spinner

2023-01-04T21:39:54Z

Vallode: Removing migrated article, looks good to me

{{Quality|Unrated}}
{{Skill
| color = 6:0
| skill = Spinner
| profession = [[Farmer]]
| job name = [[Spinning]]
| tasks =
* {{k|S}} Spin Thread
| workshop =
* [[Farmer's workshop]]
| attributes =
* Endurance
* Kinesthetic Sense
* Spatial Sense
* Strength
* Agility}}
{{av}}

'''Spinners''' spin [[wool]] into [[yarn]] and [[hair]] into [[thread]] at a [[Farmer's workshop]]. Yarn can be woven into [[cloth]] at a [[loom]] and used to create a variety of textile products such as [[bag]]s, [[clothing]], [[rope]] or [[crafts]]. ''(For a full discussion of the process and possibilities, see [[clothing industry]].)''

==See also==
*[[Textile industry]]

{{Skills}}

Duck

2023-01-04T19:28:17Z

Vallode: Removing migrated article banner, looks good to me

{{Quality|Unrated}}
{{Creaturelookup/0
|meat=0-2
|skull=1
|contrib=no
|wiki=yes}}
{{av}}
{{creaturedesc}}

'''Ducks''' are small [[domestic animal|domestic birds]] which can be encountered in the wild, living in [[lake]]s and [[wetland]]s. Females of the species are called ''ducks'', while males are referred to as ''drakes'' (<s>not</s> to be confused with [[dragon]]s!) and hatchlings are called ''ducklings''.

Ducks are the [[Domestic animal#Comparison of domestic poultry|smallest of the common domestic poultry]], so small that they only produce a [[skull]] when [[butcher]]ed. They take two years to grow to full size, and have a relatively short lifespan. These qualities make raising ducks useless for a [[meat industry]]. However, on average, ducks lay the second-most [[egg]]s of any domestic bird (8-13, exceeded only by [[turkey]]s' 10-14) making them a decent choice for [[egg production]].

Some dwarves [[Preferences|like]] ducks for their ''quacks''.

[[File:Duck-iran.JPG|thumb|400px|center|Admired for its ''quacks''.]]

{{D for Dwarf}}
Many a new player have first seen the drake in their unit list and became excited, imagining it to be some sort of lesser dragon until they found out it's just a duck. Such scenarios have typically ended with a new duck totem being added to the finished goods stockpile.

{{Gamedata}}
{{Creatures}}
{{Category|Animals}}

Blood/raw

2023-01-03T17:38:48Z

Vallode: Create Blood/raw

<noinclude>{{raw header|material template|BLOOD_TEMPLATE}}</noinclude>{{raw|v50:material_template_default.txt|MATERIAL_TEMPLATE|BLOOD_TEMPLATE}}<noinclude>{{raw footer|material template|BLOOD_TEMPLATE}}</noinclude>

Material

2023-01-03T17:37:45Z

Vallode: Removing migrated banner, looks good to me

{{av}}
{{Quality|Unrated}}
{{catbox|Materials}}

:''For information on the physical properties of materials, see [[Material science]].

[[File:material_floors_preview.png|thumb|200px|right|Most materials that can be made into floors.]]

'''Materials''' are the wide array of base resources from which objects can be created. Different materials have different base properties (including [[Value#Material_multipliers|value multipliers]] which can significantly affect the [[value]] of the item - a [[gold]] [[throne]] is worth more than an identical-quality [[lead]] one, for example).

Not every end-product can be made of all materials, and similar materials may have very different properties - for instance, [[obsidian]] is the only [[stone]] that can be used to make stone-based [[weapon]]s, only [[magma-safe]] stones will not melt when immersed in [[magma]], and [[fire imp]] [[leather]] will not burn. While nearly all metals can be made into furniture and crafts, only a select few can normally be made into [[weapon]]s and [[armor]]. These metals are generally called weapon-grade metals. This alone doesn't necessarily give these materials a higher base value, but it may make them worth more to you and your fortress in a practical sense.

Some dwarves have [[preference|preferences]] for one material over another - they receive a happy [[thought]] when working with the material, tend to produce higher-[[quality]] results, and perceive items (or rooms) made of that material as higher-[[quality]], which can also give them more happy [[thought]]s:

{{DFtext|Unib Rulushlikot likes [[rhyolite]], [[silver]], [[amber opal]], [[persimmon]] [[wood]] and [[giant emu]] [[leather]].|2:1|links=1|linkcolor=3:1}}

General groups of materials include, but are not limited to:

:* [[Stone]]
:* [[Wood]]
:* [[Metal]]
:* [[Glass]]
:* [[Leather]]
:* [[Cloth]]
:* [[Bone]]
:* [[Shell]]
:* [[Gem]]
:* [[Wax]]

Certain materials tend to be geared toward making certain items - while stone, wood, metal, and glass can be made into similar furniture, there are some items which are normally restricted to certain materials. For example, [[bed]]s can only be made out of wood, and [[bin]]s and [[bucket]]s cannot be made out of stone. Cloth and leather can both be made into clothing, but leather can also be used to make [[armor]]. Gems are largely for [[decoration|encrusting]] finished items made from other materials. Of over two dozen different [[metal]]s and [[alloy]]s, only a handful are usable to make [[weapon]]s.

In all cases, each group of materials is divided into many possible sub-types of material; there are, for instance, 11 pure [[metal]]s, another 14 [[alloy]]s, scores of different types of [[stone]] and well over 100 different types of [[gem]]s. It is best to look up each individual category, or particular material, to become familiar with its value and what it can and cannot be used for.

'''See Also:'''
:* [[The Non-Dwarf's Guide to Rock]]
:* [[Value#Material multipliers|Value/Material Multipliers]]

{{Template:V50 materials}}
{{Category|Materials|*}}
[[ru:Material]][[zh:Material]]

User:Vallode/sandbox

2023-01-03T17:26:14Z

Vallode:

==In-game border==

A migrant wave has arrived!

User:Vallode/sandbox/custom.css

2023-01-03T17:25:10Z

Vallode: Vallode moved page User:Vallode/sandbox/custom.css to User:Vallode/common.css: Sandbox cannot use custom css

/* #REDIRECT */@import url(//dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=User:Vallode/common.css&action=raw&ctype=text/css);

User:Vallode/common.css

2023-01-03T17:25:10Z

Vallode: Vallode moved page User:Vallode/sandbox/custom.css to User:Vallode/common.css: Sandbox cannot use custom css

/*
This is a custom CSS file for use in my sandbox pages to demonstrate different
CSS posibilities.
*/

.border--game {
border-image-slice: 10 10 10 10 fill;
border-image-width: 10px 10px 10px 10px;
border-image-outset: 0px 0px 0px 0px;
border-image-repeat: repeat repeat;
border-image-source: url(//dwarffortresswiki.org/images/a/a1/V50-border-sprite-fill.png);
border-style: solid;
display: inline-block;
padding: 12px;
}

User:Vallode/common.css

2023-01-03T16:42:19Z

Vallode: Create Vallode/sandbox/custom.css

User talk:Zippy

2023-01-03T10:04:25Z

Vallode:

== Images ==
Glad to see you're able to edit now. I wanted to make you aware that you added [[:File:Humansprev.png]] to the [[v0.34:Human]] page, which is from an older DF version. You'll usually want to make sure to edit the newest one (currently "DF2014"), but feel free to edit older ones too, of course.

Also - are these images you created? The "some website" that was selected for the license in [[:File:Humansprev.png]], [[:File:Dragonprev.png]], and [[:File:Elf_preview.jpg]] concerns me a bit. If you made these images yourself, that's fine, but otherwise, providing attribution helps avoid issues.

If you want to use images that are on [https://commons.wikimedia.org/ WikiMedia Commons], then you actually don't have to upload them to this wiki to use them (in fact, please don't, because there's no point in us rehosting them). I'm not seeing your recent images on there, though, so that's more of a note for future reference.
—[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:46, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
:Do I have your permission to spice up some of the templates of tables? I could make some look better and "cleaner" than they do now. - s[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 15:28, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
::Which tables are you thinking of? IMO consistency is good, but some are likely using an older style. As for changing the default look of the wiki, I haven't put much thought into that. The upcoming upgrade does look ''slightly'' different, and you can see an example [https://www.catsplode.com/index.php/DF2014:Cat here], but that's mostly just some font changes in the newer Mediawiki version. If you know CSS, you can test out your own changes at [[Special:Mypage/common.css]] if you like. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:45, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
:::Sorry but I'm not seeing much of a difference of that cat page. - [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 10:18, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Apologies if this isn't the correct place to write you about this, but you mentioned that the images I'm adding are not 'pixel perfect' but I'm not sure how to improve them. Dwarf Fortress doesn't like Steam or Nvidea overlays (for me anyways) so the only ways I can consistently screenshot is to use the windows Snip & Sketch tool or to take a full screen screenshot with Print Screen. I have tried both methods and the screenshots come out the same quality each time; as far as I can tell they are not blurrier than the game itself sometimes appears on higher resolutions (all of my screenshots were taken in 2k). - [[User:Jakemf|Jakemf]] ([[User talk:Jakemf|talk]]) 12:31, 12 December 2022 (EST)

After going through the game again in both windowed and full screen, with as many different screenshotting programs as I am willing to try, I still have the 'blur' you are referring to when I zoom in on my screenshot, however I believe this is because you are zooming in on the screenshot farther than you can zoom in in-game, at which point the pixel art stops 'blending' the blur together (if that makes any sort of sense). If you do not think this is the case, could you supply a screenshot of one of the metal floors that does not have the same blur when zoomed in that far? - [[User:Jakemf|Jakemf]] ([[User talk:Jakemf|talk]]) 2:23, 12 December 2022 (EST)

== Reuploading images ==

You mentioned an issue with reuploading images [[User_talk:Lethosor#Creature_font|here]]. I finally got around to testing this, and uploading something different on [[:File:Strangechasm.PNG]] worked for me. How big was the image you were trying to upload? Does it work now? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:46, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
:Yeah, file re-uploading works now. So far. I also finally fixed the creature list by making the "Courier New" font the "priority font". Does the list look okay to you? If I broke something, I'll gladly change it all back. You can also revert whatever change *you* made, if you want. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
::Weird, I'm pretty sure we didn't change anything, but glad it works now. The creature table looks fine to me too - thanks for handling that. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:47, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
:::Are you comfortable changing the main CSS so the links appear as different colors? I changed my personal CSS page to make them look brown, and they look waaaayy better that way. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 05:27, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
::::I'd say no, because that's a personal preference (they could also be confused for redlinks, and Mediawiki displays stub links as a brownish color when configured in [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering]]). That's why Mediawiki lets you have user-specific styles, though. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 14:50, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::The idea isn't just about me. I bring this up because right now, the wiki looks super generic. At least color wise. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 08:01, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::That's not a bad thing, though. Blue links are a convention, not just specific to Mediawiki, and we don't want to confuse or distract people from the content too much. I do like what you did with the navboxes like {{tl|DF2014 materials}} and {{tl|DF2014 world}}, by the way. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:10, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::Are you comfortable changing the links to a different type of blue for originality? Also, this wiki keeps signing me in and out at random times, is that going on for you too? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 06:49, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::::No, although I used to have issues when I was switching between HTTP and HTTPS versions of pages, since logging in on https://dwarffortresswiki.org doesn't log you in on http://dwarffortresswiki.org and vice versa. Can you check both of those links, or take note of the protocol when you see the issue again and see if it has changed? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:29, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::The "s" link logs me in just fine and the non-s one logs me out. The site seems to be fine with the "s" link. I know you might care about this but... can you give me CSS style a try? The default wiki looks so horribly boring, and this wiki is for one of the greatest games of all time, so even slightly changing link colors would be a plus. This wiki doesn't deserve mega-boring default colors. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 12:26, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

== Templates ==
Regarding the check marks you added to some pages like [[DF2014:Wetland]] - those are cool, but that's really something that should use a template, so I've moved it over to {{tl|check}}. Templates are preferable for consistency and maintainability - if we ever have to change the color or the symbol for some reason, making sure the change gets made in thousands of places is way more effort than changing it in one place. It is possible to get carried away with templates (Wikipedia's [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Tick tick template] has at least 10 alternatives - let's stick with one here), but for something like this, please don't hesitate to make a template. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:10, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
:I don't know if you noticed, but I fixed up some of the license templates for the images. I want to do the same for the first four license selections but they come up as "👍 Uploaded with permission from the creator to use only for non-commercial and/or educational purposes."... I don't know how to edit that, could you help me out there? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 04:21, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
::Sorry for the delay - something separate like this is fine to post on my talk page. Anyway, since it's been a while, can you link me to one of those images so I can see what's going on? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:24, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
:::If you pick certain licenses for uploaded images, selecting some lead to broken things like "{{subst:something license}}" instead of properly showing something. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 06:41, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
::::Understood, but can you link to one that's broken? I would prefer not to upload images to test out every license. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:32, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
::::Ok, I think I understand what the issue was now. [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Substitution "subst:"] is a special prefix for templates that causes their contents to be pasted in when the page that includes them is saved (which means that template updates won't affect past inclusions of the template). We don't really use it much on this wiki - {{tl|unsigned}} is about the only example I can think of. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:No_license_from_license_selector&action=edit Wikipedia] uses subst for these because they want the date when the template was first included to be pasted into the page (which is also what {{tl|unsigned}} does), but I don't think we care about that for these license templates. Anyway, I [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Licenses&diff=249061&oldid=183947 removed subst], so new images should use the templates corresponding to whatever is before the first ``|`` character (e.g. [[Template:No license from license selector]]). Unfortunately, there may not be a way to force pages that already used subst, like [[:File:Grasshopper Man with Scroll.jpg]], to update. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:42, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

== How to put this... ==
...not really looking for it per se, but nevertheless... *thumbsup* [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&curid=1&diff=246056&oldid=246054 nice edit]? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:16, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

IMHO, this is finally [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&curid=1&diff=249830&oldid=249829 workable] after a year or so lying fallow....good work, anyway. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 17:43, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

== Creepy Crawler pic ==

I would assume from the description it's more like a starfish made of fingers than a spider. Sorry for leaving this here but it wouldn't let me edit the article's talk page. --[[Special:Contributions/35.191.8.96|35.191.8.96]] 07:56, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
:Yeah, I noticed that an hour after I posted it. Meh, I'll just redraw it. [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:56, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

== Copyright issues with images ==

Hi,

there is an ongoing discussion about images and copyright infringement at [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Copyrights#Images_and_copyright_infringement]]. You have uploaded many files with copyright issues, so could you please take a look at the discussion and explain your point of view? It would be very helpful if you could tell where you have got the images from. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 08:16, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
:I know I already posted this in the other talk page, but a lot of the images I got were either posted on Reddit (where I asked the creators directly if I could use their stuff, and they said yes, as long as I credit them) or from DeviantArt, Pinterest or Instragram, which had the Creative License right there on the page. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 01:23, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

== Copyright issues, again ==

Hi,

the photo you recently uploaded, [[:File:Seeds preview.jpg]], seems to be a copyright violation. You say that it "is public domain from gardentech.com". You took the image [https://www.gardentech.com/blog/how-to-guides/how-to-start-a-vegetable-garden from this article], right? I am genuinely curious: how did you arrive to the conclusion that the image is public domain? On that article, there is no mention of public domain, or any image license for that matter, as far as I can tell. The [https://www.gardentech.com/terms Terms and Conditions] (specifically sections 1, 2, 3 and 6) of the site explicitly say that all images are protected by copyright and may not be used without a specific permission.

In fact, the image of seeds is not public domain, but [https://www.alamy.com/search/imageresults.aspx?pseudoid=%7b3010441C-FF07-4962-B893-F23C45DFF55E%7d&name=SunFlowerStudio&st=11&mode=0&comp=1 SunnyFlowerStudio's] photo sold on [https://www.alamy.com/hands-planting-the-seeds-into-the-dirt-image235850598.html Alamy].

Gardentech has a good terms and conditions page in terms of copyright: it is very clear in that it doesn't allow the reuse of its images. However, I want to make something clear: by default, all art, including photos, is protected by copyright. That means that if you find an image on a website, and the site in questions does not in any way tell you whether you can use its images in DFwiki, you are not allowed to use the images. Only a clear permission to use the image in public, non-commercial projects or DFwiki specifically mean that you are allowed to upload the image to this wiki. For a good example of a site that actually features public domain images, look at [https://visualsonline.cancer.gov/details.cfm?imageid=9693 National Cancer Institute Visuals Online]. The "Reuse restrictions" at the bottom of the image info plainly tells that the image is public domain.

I know you have put a lot of effort into adding images to this wiki, but I gently recommend you to cease uploading photos until you have internalised how image copyrights work on the Internet.
[[File:India - Varanasi green peas - 2714.jpg|thumb|274px|Some seeds are edible, either raw or cooked.]] If you want to continue illustrating DFwiki with photos, I suggest you try using images from Wikimedia Commons. Files on Wikimedia Commons are always licensed so that they can be used on this wiki as well. When using commons images, you don't need to upload the images on this wiki: simply typing <code><nowiki>[[File:India - Varanasi green peas - 2714.jpg|thumb|274px|Some seeds are edible, either raw or cooked.]]</nowiki></code> shows the image on right, even though the image has never been uploaded to DFwiki, the file being in [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:India_-_Varanasi_green_peas_-_2714.jpg Commons.] [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 17:04, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
:I removed the seeds image. I will now use a specialized search for images that do not have a copyright on them. I'm probably gonna have to draw everything myself. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 05:25, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

'''Comment''': Finding a perfect image can be hard, finding one with a permission to use is nigh impossible ;) though you did great job with your recent find on [[DF2014:Night_creature]].

In my experience, if we can use an image its explicitly stated so, and there are few sources that host a large variety of those that suit our purpose. As for specialized searches, I had poor experience with google image search engine with user rights setting, I find it better to limit search to specific dedicated sites for example:

{| class=wikitable
| Commons || google image search: "search term site:https://commons.wikimedia.org"
|-
| DeviantArt|| google article search: "search term creative-commons site:deviantart.com/"
|}

Probably many others like [https://openclipart.org/detail/292259/caveman-frame openclipart]. As for drawing, not sure what your art style is, but [https://www.deanspencerart.com/blackwhite deanspencer] has a huge collection of filler art that might inspire you. I hope this helps. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:18, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

=== Again ===
Copyright issues, again: [[:File:Infected_blue_ghoul.jpg]], [https://www.deviantart.com/scottpurdy/art/Ghoul-196557534 original]. Google search can only point the way but you still need the license to be stated explicitly. For licensing purpose, it doesn't matter if the image was posted many times on facebook or if someone tagged it as creative common (we too had a lot of content tagged like that by mistake) its the same as googling tv shows on youtube, you can find some that hasn't been removed yet, but everyone knows its pirating. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:55, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
:This is starting to piss me off. Didn't one of us already ask this exact dude if we could use some of his stuff? This is confusing the hell out of me. I don't know if you knew this, but DeviantArt not only changed their layout recently, but MANY settings on license options. There were a few images on here that *I* helped airbrush years ago. Not that I'm using this as an excuse, but some of these images are absolutely plastered eeeeeverywheeeere on the net. I don't understand how we get slammed and no one else does. I'm gonna find my drawpad, my copies of Photoshop and Illustrator and doing this crap myself. I'd hope others here would do the same. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 11:33, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
:: If you created the image, have permission from the creator, have source where they released it under a suitable license etc then state that. But there is no license for found it on google and everyone else does it.
:: Otherwise, I whole heartedly agree that this can be frustrating, but we don't make the rules. I did suggest couple of ways above that might help you in your searches. I also hope more people will create DF art that we can use, unfortunately most aren't aware of your plight here, maybe you can take it further and create some sort of community art thread ([https://twitter.com/DwarfFortArt/status/1143933685500170240 akin to this]) where people are asked to state if they give permission to use it on the wiki. -[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 13:04, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

::No, we haven't contacted ScottPurdy. When looking for art to use on this wiki, you need to put a little bit of effort into figuring out if the art is licensed under Creative Commons or something similar, unfortunately Google's filter isn't foolproof:
::* Does it seem like the image was uploaded by the artist? If the image is on DeviantArt, Artstation, an artist's blog or website, it most likely was uploaded by the original artist. If the image appears on Pinterest, a wiki, an article, or a blog which features lots of different art, it probably wasn't uploaded by the original artist. You need to find where the art was originally uploaded to see which license applies to the art.
::* Read the image description: the artist might state there how they feel about reusing the art. The description can also tell if the art is taken from somewhere else, or if the copyright holder is someone other than the artist.
::* Does the page directly state that the image has a Creative Commons license or similar? If not, don't use the art on this wiki. On DeviantArt, this is mentioned at the bottom of the image description, above the comments.
::* If you find an artwork you'd like to use on this wiki, but the license doesn't allow it, ask the artist first. Only if they give you permission, upload the art here. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 14:31, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Few more:
* [[:File:Cyclops_semi.png]] and [https://www.deviantart.com/ogi-g/art/Cyclops-200374804 original] - you can't google image window shop for "free" images on shady upload sites with no monitoring capabilities. Same with [[:File:Animal_train_comic.png]] and [https://picsart.com/i/sticker-mq-safari-zoo-wildlife-animal-animals-276907033001211 original].
* [[:File:Animal train comic.png]] "Was given permission" - permission by who? what sort of permission? be specific or we can't use this.
* [[:File:Dwarf beekeeper.jpg]] - Again, if it isn't explicitly said that you can use the image(specify license) then we can't use this. Just because a site didn't put up a license notice that you can find doesn't mean the material used there in is not copyrighted. Especially when this is a blog that post images from other sources. Which in this case its review of kruggsmash so at least you should specify {{tl|permission}}
* [[:File:Sheriff_dwarf.jpg]] - again doesn't matter where it was posted what license? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 15:11, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

And again:
* [[:File:Injured dwarf.png]] great image you found, however, I find the contrast between the detailed license info here and the lack of on [[:File:Giant_bat.png]] peculiar. Do we have a permission to use this [https://www.deviantart.com/adoptables-fur-one/art/Ahool-ADOPTABLE-459011550 copyrighted] image? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:29, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Regarding [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=File:Werewolf_preview.png&curid=41002&diff=264205&oldid=263306 this edit] - what license was updated? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:57, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
:I edited the wrong, sorry. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:56, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Regarding [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=File:Pickaxe_transparent.png&curid=40839&diff=264460&oldid=263558 this edit] - per [[User:Tanamoril/Copyright_violations]], please include attribution for those images, and not just in the edit history. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

== New image ==

What [[:File:Armok map render.png]] adds to [[world generation]] entry? We already have a lot of in-game screenshots illustrations. Showing medium/large world, animating the process and otherwise showing parts of menus relevant to what is talked about. While this render mostly shows the Arthurs skill with Inkscape. Pretty as it is, I am not sure it should stay, or at the least its description should emphasis that it isn't in-game anything (not a fancy tileset) but done manually with Inkscape (btw we have a couple of [[Utilities]] that does that automatically) and maybe a link to 'Osmlo Ospaz' succession game if it is indeed that. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 14:16, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

[[:File:Fishing docks.jpg]] very pretty image (personally, I love that style), however, i think it doesn't suits DF very well, there is no hint of ships\boats in-game fishing industry or otherwise, and here they are front and center plus very modern looking ones. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 19:42, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

== shabazik ==

Concerning this [[:File:Champ_dwarf.jpg]]. The artist, shabazik, on his page confirmed that he gave you permission to use his works. Recalling that he "[..]given permission for some non-commercial use of my works, if credited as the creator of said works". Currently the image is labelled with {{tl|Cc-by-sa-3.0}} is that license that he gave you, or was there some mixup with upload options\templates and {{tl|Permission from license selector}} is more suitable or another? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 13:10, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
:Wouldn't either one be equally as good? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 13:51, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
::For who? Tanamoril prefers cc3, but I don't care either way. Just trying to make sure that we aren't misrepresenting by mistake what was agreed on --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:18, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
:::What if another template was made to rectify this? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 13:04, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
:::: What did he agree to? From your comment, I gather that he didn't offered it under CC3, if the same as stated above then its essentially used with permission for non-commercial use with attribution. Personally I think permission covers that, but we can also add it as free text or as special template (if common enough). I don't know anymore than that user:Tanamoril‎ is the copyright master, I just wanted to figure if we can use more of his fantastic work. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 19:05, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

== Why can't we have an accurate picture of the Green Devourer? ==

There's no reason not to have more images of a species. There's no copyright issues, and if clarity is the issue then you should look into removing the innacurate depiction by Quimael (but again, I'd prefer multiple pictures)

[[User:Opdagon|Opdagon]] ([[User talk:Opdagon|talk]]) 11:57, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
:I don't think you understand why your image was removed. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 17:43, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
::Then please explain [[User:Opdagon|Opdagon]] ([[User talk:Opdagon|talk]]) 21:13, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
:::Don't take this the wrong way, but the images you made are... not exactly the most... detailed, let's say. All the other images on other pages range from beautiful pieces of art that could almost be put in a museum to more simple drawings, but still have some significant detail to them - including the crayon drawings by the creators of the game. I'm in no way pulling any rank when I say that, because even some of the ''my'' drawings were not at Picasso level, as I had to redraw/improve them in some way. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 21:34, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
::::I feel like an image is better having a few accurate details than a load of incorrect ones [[User:Opdagon|Opdagon]] ([[User talk:Opdagon|talk]]) 20:29, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::Yeeeaaahhhh... This is about more than the accuracy of the image. The one you posted looks like it was made in Microsoft Paint in under a minute. I don't mean that as a personal attack, as I'm just speaking on that one image. At least add some attractive details is what I'm driving at. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 01:57, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
::::::This is a wiki, not an art gallery. A bad drawing of a green devourer is much more important to have than a good drawing that gets everything wrong. And if it's really that important why don't ''you'' make a better accurate drawing? [[User:Opdagon|Opdagon]] ([[User talk:Opdagon|talk]]) 19:44, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::::Wiki or not, images should have at least a fraction of visual appeal to them. The entire point of wiki pages are - assuming there's enough info anyway - to make a page look as presentable as possible, and images should fall into that as well. Seeing as that I'm currently redrawing and replacing as many images here as I can, replacing your image is not exactly number one on my list right now. I'm starting to get the feeling that you're offended. Also, not every creature image here is perfectly accurate, including ones not posted by me. Accuracy or not, something should always be presentable. A Microsoft Paint image that's just an outline and some fill tool clicks is not presentable. A page would probably look better without an image at all than that. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:03, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::::: "assuming there's enough info anyway" What if there isn't? What if all the details of a creature's body are presented only in the form of a baroque chunk of code hidden at the base of the page? You're also dismissing all the effort that went into the image beyond simply drawing it: The research of comparing real animals to their raws, working out what sort of animal the Devourer is, justifying every organ and joint on its body to produce a creature both realistic and canonical to the game [[User:Opdagon|Opdagon]] ([[User talk:Opdagon|talk]]) 10:43, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::I heavily, and I mean I '''''heavily''''' believe that if you present something to the public, especially on the internet, you should give it your all. Or at least make it generally presentable. Because I'm a... relatively... "nice guy"... I won't remove anything you put up, but when I find the time, I'll show you an example of how your sea creature image should look. Once I do that, it will be up to you to replace it with mine or not. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 10:20, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
{{od|9}}
There is no requirement that images on the wiki meet a certain level of artistic quality. This one could arguably be interpreted as a diagram, and I think it's fine for it to be presented as a "second, anatomical" depiction. Images uploaded by their author also have the advantage of not running into copyright issues, as several of your uploads (Zippy) have. If you want to ''improve'' the visual quality without detracting from the intent of the image, then I personally wouldn't have any issues with that, but I do have issues with removing images because you don't think they "look good enough", particularly when looking good was not the intention. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:05, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

== copyright issues again ==

I see you still violating copyrights and your actions are still ignored by the admins.

: Most recent submission: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/File:Dingo_man.jpg

Again you seem to be google crawling on sites with shady practices. Again you have not received permission from copyright holder. Again you make up stuff.
: (1) "may be subject to copyright" means you have no idea what the copyright status is (including whether you are allowed to use it and/or modify it)
: (2) clearly there is watermark on the image, stating it is 'Copyrighted to Katie Hofgard 2013' which you removed.
: (3) you submission stating this image is "Free" and "The image has no license and/or is in the public domain."
: (4) took me 10second to find this: https://www.deviantart.com/katiehofgard/art/Elder-s-Wisdom-397661157

It is clear you are a copyright liability and every image submission of yours should be suspect of copyright violation --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:47, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
:Uuuuggghhhhh Christ... This again. I just went through all this with Lethosor. Mind you that a lot of these people took images they found themselves and slapped ''their'' watermarks on them because they made slight/moderate alterations to them.

Some of these images are absolutely everywhere, making it impossible to find out who the true artist or license was. I've had to send countless, and I mean COUNTLESS emails around to many sites, with a lot of these places taking weeks to respond. I've even turned to using AI drawing apps for images so I don't have to bother others for their art. I've even went to uncomfortable sites to ask for things.

I also convinced Lethosor to add a ton of extra templates to make license labeling easier, which is all over his talk page.

'''Edit:''' Yeah, just as I suspected. The image you linked was uploaded to DeviantArt before January 24, 2014. Back then, images were not automatically claimed, and users had to openly state otherwise. Though it seems this person started to make a calender with that image. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 16:34, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

:: Once again, '''the golden rule you need explicit disclaimer or permission from copyright holder, absence of their off means shit.'''
:::>''Some of these images are absolutely everywhere, making it impossible to find out who the true artist or license was.''
:: Doesn't matter; Thank you for all hardwork; see the golden rule.
:::>''Mind you that a lot of these people took images they found themselves and slapped ''their'' watermarks on them because they made slight/moderate alterations to them.''
:: Are you asserting that is the case here? Because it seem clear to me that you had no idea who the copyright holder was nor the copyright status of their work, and in no way in a position to state it is free.
:::>''Yeah, just as I suspected. The image you linked was uploaded to DeviantArt before January 24, 2014. Back then, images were not automatically claimed, and users had to openly state otherwise''
:: openly state like a big copyright watermark in the middle that you removed? Even if your rational were true, you didn't know that at the time of posting when you claiming the work was free.
:: I don't know what you talked about with Lethosor. I know that Tanamoril spent a lot of time on this with you and I will let the resident admin worry/ignore all these long term violations that we keep hosting (who knows maybe the servers are in copyright free haven)--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:32, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

:Again, https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/File:Gigantic_panda_preview.jpg
:If the copyrightholder (not the webmaster) "made it clear that this isn't used financially" then there is a (non commercial use) license and you can't tag it as PD. Public domain means that I can do whatever I want e.g. I can take it put my name on it, make commercial prints of it, sell them along side the original artists work in his shop and there is nothing legally he can do about it. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:37, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
{{od|1}}
I mean nothing personal when I ask this, but... is English not your primary language or something? Because some of what you say has some weird, ''weird'' grammar that makes you hard to follow.

You keep mentioning the watermark that I removed in that one image like a "gotcha!" moment. Damn right I removed that watermark, I thought it was some desktop background image (which is how that site presented it, according to that site.) You found the image on DeviantArt, but I asked the guy on Reddit if he cared about his work being used, and he didn't care (which would be a bit late and pointless for that anyway since it's all over the place). If you had any idea of the effort I put in and the amount of emails and DM's I send to the authors of these images (or the webmasters if the source is not clear), you wouldn't be typing so aggressively about this.

I asked a lot of these artists if I could use their work, since it's already on Pinterest/Tumblr/desktop background sites/etc and about 93% of them say they don't give a shit. A lot of these images are on so many other sites and wikis that it almost physically hurts trying to comprehend it. Let me paint a picture here, imagine something you made is ALL over the internet, on like maybe 50-100 sites... one of them being the Dwarf Fortress Wiki. Who's gonna go, "By golly! My image is on quite literally half of the entire internet, but out of ALL those sites, it being on Dwarf Fortress Wiki is what steam my clams!! All those other sites are one thing, but hot dog! That ONE site is the bad one! >=("

"If the copyrightholder (not the webmaster) "made it clear that this isn't used financially" then there is a (non commercial use) license and you can't tag it as PD. Public domain means that I can do whatever I want e.g. I can take it put my name on it, make commercial prints of it, sell them along side the original artists work in his shop and there is nothing legally he can do about it."

Fair enough, then I can change it to the "non-commercial" template. Don't get my words wrong, I'm not saying "some images are at more than one place so I can take what I want", but if you saw the replies I get about how nonchalant and accepting they are of their work being used here, it would be enough to write a very thick book. Moving on. Any time you want to report me to Lethosor or whatever, please feel free. In fact, I can do it for you.

No matter what the outcome is - whether I'm allowed to post preview pictures here or not... I'll be the victor. If I can still post images, great. If I can't... great. The Steam version has its own visuals anyway, almost negating the need for preview images. Using image search on Google also randomizes the site tickets, not always showing the image's exact source on the first search.

"the golden rule you need explicit disclaimer or permission from copyright holder, absence of their off means shit."

And if it doesn't exist? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 12:50, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

:Then you can't use it.

:I doubt English is the issue here, Tanamoril already explained all of this in fine English to anyone willing to listen. Furthermore he spent months on a [[:User:Tanamoril/Copyright violations|project]] to address mostly your notions about copyright. Fast forward half a year, I come back and the first thing I see on recent changes is that you still at it. Worse instead of addressing it you gave me the same excuses and ignored it.
:Anyway, I give up, this is the domain of admin responsibility. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 15:32, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

== cool images ==

Could be nice if you can acquire permission for this [https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/zdgw1r/i_feel_like_a_kid_on_christmas_eve_waiting_for/ image by josh mckelvey] - I think it is fantastic image, that use a simple and accurate depiction that connects the past with present --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:10, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
:I asked the guy just now, and he responded to me within minutes that it's fine. Proof of that is [https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/zdgw1r/comment/j163dth/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 here]. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 23:11, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::Thanks! --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:59, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Just got reminded of [https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/nkofam/a_typical_elven_caravan_this_drawing_is_inspired/ this amazing old fanart], if you crossed path with artist it could be nice. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 22:35, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

== adding raw ==
I think you should hold on adding raws. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 17:32, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:I was only adding a few to test a template. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 17:34, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

:: alright, just keep in mind that most game raw files are handled by DFRawFunctions extension (You can check this by looking at the previous version namespace [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Cow/raw&action=edit for example].) And Lethosor [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Versions#v50_migration|already working on it]]: "This will be addressed with an upgrade to the DFRawFunctions extension." Once done he will unleash a bot that will trump everything. Just a heads up to save you some time, otherwise go ahead and expirement--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 17:39, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::Yes, please be aware that any changes you make to /raw pages will be overwritten. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:27, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
:::Is he also making templates that allow graphics? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:42, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
::::What templates are you referring to? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:27, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
::Infoboxes. One that allows graphics instead of relying on colored letters at the top. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 13:21, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

== Animal fat picture ==
The current animal fat picture ( http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/3/39/Animal_fat.jpg ) is a picture of a wedge of soft cheese. Not a picture of subcutaneous fat. I suggest you either revert to your previous picture or find another more relevant picture. Kindly -[[User:GlitterLich|GlitterLich]] ([[User talk:GlitterLich|talk]]) 05:19, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
:I found the "revert" button for pictures, so I took the liberty of reverting it to the previous picture myself. -[[User:GlitterLich|GlitterLich]] ([[User talk:GlitterLich|talk]]) 10:46, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::The place I found that picture said it was food made from a large amount of animal fat, so I thought that would fit. Also, you're a member on this wiki just as much as I am. Though you just reverted the image, you can upload better images at any time. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 17:14, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

== Classic graphics ==
Per [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Versions#Premium.2FClassic]], please don't remove classic graphics as you did on [[Status icon]] - they are still relevant for a current version of the game (as well as if classic graphics are turned on in premium builds). I've readded some as an example of an approach that can apply to both versions. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:53, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:That's what I wanted to do, but I wasn't quite finished with the page, and I couldn't find the right template. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 05:54, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::I just used something from [[DF Talk:Versions]]. We can certainly make it look nicer later, but I think it does the job adequately for now. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 06:03, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Might as well slip this question in since I "have you"... or... you "have me". Is the wiki ever gonna undergo a CSS color overhaul? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 06:32, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::::We have several skins available at [[Special:Preferences]] now, if you're interested. Other than that, I don't have plans to develop a custom skin myself. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 06:34, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::Are you gonna make updated templates for the buildings/workshops/furnaces, or are you leaving that to us? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 06:43, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

== Labors in v50 ==
Hey just noticed you removed the labor categories on Ashery, I'm not sure I totally agree with that. I tend to use a lot of custom labor categories and it's helpful to see the labors required be listed on the wiki for each task. The discord sees quite a few people confused about why "dwarf X isn't doing Y even though is profession X". Labor requirements should still be listed IMO. [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 09:53, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:I'll undo the edit, but the reason I did that is because v50 doesn't require dwarves to have the skill enabled to do certain jobs anymore. In the "labors" tab, you can use the "anyone does this" option, which will make almost ALL dwarves do something if they're not busy with something else. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 09:59, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::Yeah I can see the reasoning, the only problem is that as soon as you click on someone to do something specific the game switches to "only selected do this" automatically. I've ran into problems before where I quickly wanted to force someone to only stick to say Glassmaking and then my glass industry halted until I switched it back to "everybody does this"... Think it's fine if the wiki is a bit _verbose_ about this kind of stuff. Cheers for reverting. [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 10:04, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

User talk:Jan

2023-01-03T09:53:57Z

Vallode: Remove erroneous discussion

== Redirects ==

Please be sure to refer to [[DF:REDIR]] when creating redirects. Specifically, the one you created at [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Socializing&oldid=260038 DF2014:Socializing] was not future-proof, and would have redirected to the wrong version if "cv" were changed to point to a newer namespace. Thanks for helping out on the wiki! —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:17, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

== Errors arise... ==

[https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Climate&curid=31137&diff=260777&oldid=256718| Something looks rather messed here...] ...that is to say, your well-intentioned layout change has some of us suddenly reading titles up-and-down, instead of left-to-right or (as I assume) right-to-left. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 13:37, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

== summary? ==

Sorry it took so long to see your request, and I don't know how to ping users on DF Wiki, so I came here with the answer to your question about a summary for DFHack's commands. Just go to the DFHack terminal window and type <code>ls</code> or <code>dir</code>, and it'll spit out a list 91 columns wide and 317 lines long. Just copy & paste the output to a text file.

It can be finicky capturing text from the terminal, so if you want, nudge me at dwarfstreja@gmail.com and I'll send the whole thing. <s>I thought about adding it to the DFHack Utility page, but I don't think that's what the page is for.</s> I added a line at the end of the first section on how to find this list. [[User:DwarfStreja| —Myk Streja]] ([[User_talk:DwarfStreja|talk]]) 17:35, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

== Token types? ==

"Type" seems to be fairly specific to creature tokens, but it seems to indicate the context where tokens ''can'' apply. Creature type apply to the general creature definition; Caste type can apply to individual CASTEs; Special type have non-defining special functions (mostly used like goto statements in order to begin adding tokens in a new location in the definition).

To be honest though it isn't very clear and probably needs a lot of clarification, since several Caste type tokens can be used outside of the CASTE context; eg. the [PET] token is listed as Caste type, but it isn't ''solely'' a Caste token, in fact it's mostly used in the general Creature context. XD
[[User:Qeveren|Qeveren]] ([[User talk:Qeveren|talk]]) 20:11, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Maybe I'll bug some of the veteran creature-modders on the Discord and see if they can clarify things for me. XD [[User:Qeveren|Qeveren]] ([[User talk:Qeveren|talk]]) 20:17, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

: Thank you, much appreciated. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:14, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

:: Okay, yeah, "Caste" type means "if used in a CASTE applies only to that CASTE, if used outside of a CASTE it applies to all CASTES." There are a few Caste types that ''are'' CASTE-only, and have "Caste-specific" in their descriptions. [[User:Qeveren|Qeveren]] ([[User talk:Qeveren|talk]]) 23:07, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

== Status-bar-full.png ==

Why did you change it? I want the tooltip there. I also want it to show all the categories. [[User:Ziusudra|Ziusudra]] ([[User talk:Ziusudra|talk]]) 23:52, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
: It seemed better, I reverted it. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 04:56, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

== layerlookup ==

looks like it's working on metamorphic and igneous, but not sedimentary. have removed duplicate entries on the other pages. thanks for the heads up on where to add things, very new to doing wiki additions
[[User:Castaras|Castaras]] ([[User talk:Castaras|talk]]) 13:55, 1 January 2023 (UTC)Castaras
: The sedimentary entry is incorrect, it should be:
::<nowiki>{{Layerlookup/layers|SEDIMENTARY}}</nowiki>
: Instead of:
::<nowiki>{{Layerlookup/layers|Sedimentary Stone Layers}}</nowiki>
:--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 14:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

User talk:Zippy

2023-01-03T09:53:26Z

Vallode: /* Labors in v50 */ new section

== Images ==
Glad to see you're able to edit now. I wanted to make you aware that you added [[:File:Humansprev.png]] to the [[v0.34:Human]] page, which is from an older DF version. You'll usually want to make sure to edit the newest one (currently "DF2014"), but feel free to edit older ones too, of course.

Also - are these images you created? The "some website" that was selected for the license in [[:File:Humansprev.png]], [[:File:Dragonprev.png]], and [[:File:Elf_preview.jpg]] concerns me a bit. If you made these images yourself, that's fine, but otherwise, providing attribution helps avoid issues.

If you want to use images that are on [https://commons.wikimedia.org/ WikiMedia Commons], then you actually don't have to upload them to this wiki to use them (in fact, please don't, because there's no point in us rehosting them). I'm not seeing your recent images on there, though, so that's more of a note for future reference.
—[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 20:46, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
:Do I have your permission to spice up some of the templates of tables? I could make some look better and "cleaner" than they do now. - s[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 15:28, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
::Which tables are you thinking of? IMO consistency is good, but some are likely using an older style. As for changing the default look of the wiki, I haven't put much thought into that. The upcoming upgrade does look ''slightly'' different, and you can see an example [https://www.catsplode.com/index.php/DF2014:Cat here], but that's mostly just some font changes in the newer Mediawiki version. If you know CSS, you can test out your own changes at [[Special:Mypage/common.css]] if you like. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:45, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
:::Sorry but I'm not seeing much of a difference of that cat page. - [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 10:18, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Apologies if this isn't the correct place to write you about this, but you mentioned that the images I'm adding are not 'pixel perfect' but I'm not sure how to improve them. Dwarf Fortress doesn't like Steam or Nvidea overlays (for me anyways) so the only ways I can consistently screenshot is to use the windows Snip & Sketch tool or to take a full screen screenshot with Print Screen. I have tried both methods and the screenshots come out the same quality each time; as far as I can tell they are not blurrier than the game itself sometimes appears on higher resolutions (all of my screenshots were taken in 2k). - [[User:Jakemf|Jakemf]] ([[User talk:Jakemf|talk]]) 12:31, 12 December 2022 (EST)

After going through the game again in both windowed and full screen, with as many different screenshotting programs as I am willing to try, I still have the 'blur' you are referring to when I zoom in on my screenshot, however I believe this is because you are zooming in on the screenshot farther than you can zoom in in-game, at which point the pixel art stops 'blending' the blur together (if that makes any sort of sense). If you do not think this is the case, could you supply a screenshot of one of the metal floors that does not have the same blur when zoomed in that far? - [[User:Jakemf|Jakemf]] ([[User talk:Jakemf|talk]]) 2:23, 12 December 2022 (EST)

== Reuploading images ==

You mentioned an issue with reuploading images [[User_talk:Lethosor#Creature_font|here]]. I finally got around to testing this, and uploading something different on [[:File:Strangechasm.PNG]] worked for me. How big was the image you were trying to upload? Does it work now? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:46, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
:Yeah, file re-uploading works now. So far. I also finally fixed the creature list by making the "Courier New" font the "priority font". Does the list look okay to you? If I broke something, I'll gladly change it all back. You can also revert whatever change *you* made, if you want. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
::Weird, I'm pretty sure we didn't change anything, but glad it works now. The creature table looks fine to me too - thanks for handling that. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:47, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
:::Are you comfortable changing the main CSS so the links appear as different colors? I changed my personal CSS page to make them look brown, and they look waaaayy better that way. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 05:27, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
::::I'd say no, because that's a personal preference (they could also be confused for redlinks, and Mediawiki displays stub links as a brownish color when configured in [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering]]). That's why Mediawiki lets you have user-specific styles, though. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 14:50, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::The idea isn't just about me. I bring this up because right now, the wiki looks super generic. At least color wise. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 08:01, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::That's not a bad thing, though. Blue links are a convention, not just specific to Mediawiki, and we don't want to confuse or distract people from the content too much. I do like what you did with the navboxes like {{tl|DF2014 materials}} and {{tl|DF2014 world}}, by the way. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:10, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::Are you comfortable changing the links to a different type of blue for originality? Also, this wiki keeps signing me in and out at random times, is that going on for you too? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 06:49, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::::No, although I used to have issues when I was switching between HTTP and HTTPS versions of pages, since logging in on https://dwarffortresswiki.org doesn't log you in on http://dwarffortresswiki.org and vice versa. Can you check both of those links, or take note of the protocol when you see the issue again and see if it has changed? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 01:29, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::The "s" link logs me in just fine and the non-s one logs me out. The site seems to be fine with the "s" link. I know you might care about this but... can you give me CSS style a try? The default wiki looks so horribly boring, and this wiki is for one of the greatest games of all time, so even slightly changing link colors would be a plus. This wiki doesn't deserve mega-boring default colors. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 12:26, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

== Templates ==
Regarding the check marks you added to some pages like [[DF2014:Wetland]] - those are cool, but that's really something that should use a template, so I've moved it over to {{tl|check}}. Templates are preferable for consistency and maintainability - if we ever have to change the color or the symbol for some reason, making sure the change gets made in thousands of places is way more effort than changing it in one place. It is possible to get carried away with templates (Wikipedia's [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Tick tick template] has at least 10 alternatives - let's stick with one here), but for something like this, please don't hesitate to make a template. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 00:10, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
:I don't know if you noticed, but I fixed up some of the license templates for the images. I want to do the same for the first four license selections but they come up as "👍 Uploaded with permission from the creator to use only for non-commercial and/or educational purposes."... I don't know how to edit that, could you help me out there? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 04:21, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
::Sorry for the delay - something separate like this is fine to post on my talk page. Anyway, since it's been a while, can you link me to one of those images so I can see what's going on? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:24, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
:::If you pick certain licenses for uploaded images, selecting some lead to broken things like "{{subst:something license}}" instead of properly showing something. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 06:41, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
::::Understood, but can you link to one that's broken? I would prefer not to upload images to test out every license. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:32, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
::::Ok, I think I understand what the issue was now. [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Substitution "subst:"] is a special prefix for templates that causes their contents to be pasted in when the page that includes them is saved (which means that template updates won't affect past inclusions of the template). We don't really use it much on this wiki - {{tl|unsigned}} is about the only example I can think of. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:No_license_from_license_selector&action=edit Wikipedia] uses subst for these because they want the date when the template was first included to be pasted into the page (which is also what {{tl|unsigned}} does), but I don't think we care about that for these license templates. Anyway, I [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Licenses&diff=249061&oldid=183947 removed subst], so new images should use the templates corresponding to whatever is before the first ``|`` character (e.g. [[Template:No license from license selector]]). Unfortunately, there may not be a way to force pages that already used subst, like [[:File:Grasshopper Man with Scroll.jpg]], to update. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 22:42, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

== How to put this... ==
...not really looking for it per se, but nevertheless... *thumbsup* [http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&curid=1&diff=246056&oldid=246054 nice edit]? [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 18:16, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

IMHO, this is finally [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&curid=1&diff=249830&oldid=249829 workable] after a year or so lying fallow....good work, anyway. [[User:Silverwing235|Silverwing235]] ([[User talk:Silverwing235|talk]]) 17:43, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

== Creepy Crawler pic ==

I would assume from the description it's more like a starfish made of fingers than a spider. Sorry for leaving this here but it wouldn't let me edit the article's talk page. --[[Special:Contributions/35.191.8.96|35.191.8.96]] 07:56, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
:Yeah, I noticed that an hour after I posted it. Meh, I'll just redraw it. [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:56, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

== Copyright issues with images ==

Hi,

there is an ongoing discussion about images and copyright infringement at [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Copyrights#Images_and_copyright_infringement]]. You have uploaded many files with copyright issues, so could you please take a look at the discussion and explain your point of view? It would be very helpful if you could tell where you have got the images from. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 08:16, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
:I know I already posted this in the other talk page, but a lot of the images I got were either posted on Reddit (where I asked the creators directly if I could use their stuff, and they said yes, as long as I credit them) or from DeviantArt, Pinterest or Instragram, which had the Creative License right there on the page. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 01:23, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

== Copyright issues, again ==

Hi,

the photo you recently uploaded, [[:File:Seeds preview.jpg]], seems to be a copyright violation. You say that it "is public domain from gardentech.com". You took the image [https://www.gardentech.com/blog/how-to-guides/how-to-start-a-vegetable-garden from this article], right? I am genuinely curious: how did you arrive to the conclusion that the image is public domain? On that article, there is no mention of public domain, or any image license for that matter, as far as I can tell. The [https://www.gardentech.com/terms Terms and Conditions] (specifically sections 1, 2, 3 and 6) of the site explicitly say that all images are protected by copyright and may not be used without a specific permission.

In fact, the image of seeds is not public domain, but [https://www.alamy.com/search/imageresults.aspx?pseudoid=%7b3010441C-FF07-4962-B893-F23C45DFF55E%7d&name=SunFlowerStudio&st=11&mode=0&comp=1 SunnyFlowerStudio's] photo sold on [https://www.alamy.com/hands-planting-the-seeds-into-the-dirt-image235850598.html Alamy].

Gardentech has a good terms and conditions page in terms of copyright: it is very clear in that it doesn't allow the reuse of its images. However, I want to make something clear: by default, all art, including photos, is protected by copyright. That means that if you find an image on a website, and the site in questions does not in any way tell you whether you can use its images in DFwiki, you are not allowed to use the images. Only a clear permission to use the image in public, non-commercial projects or DFwiki specifically mean that you are allowed to upload the image to this wiki. For a good example of a site that actually features public domain images, look at [https://visualsonline.cancer.gov/details.cfm?imageid=9693 National Cancer Institute Visuals Online]. The "Reuse restrictions" at the bottom of the image info plainly tells that the image is public domain.

I know you have put a lot of effort into adding images to this wiki, but I gently recommend you to cease uploading photos until you have internalised how image copyrights work on the Internet.
[[File:India - Varanasi green peas - 2714.jpg|thumb|274px|Some seeds are edible, either raw or cooked.]] If you want to continue illustrating DFwiki with photos, I suggest you try using images from Wikimedia Commons. Files on Wikimedia Commons are always licensed so that they can be used on this wiki as well. When using commons images, you don't need to upload the images on this wiki: simply typing <code><nowiki>[[File:India - Varanasi green peas - 2714.jpg|thumb|274px|Some seeds are edible, either raw or cooked.]]</nowiki></code> shows the image on right, even though the image has never been uploaded to DFwiki, the file being in [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:India_-_Varanasi_green_peas_-_2714.jpg Commons.] [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 17:04, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
:I removed the seeds image. I will now use a specialized search for images that do not have a copyright on them. I'm probably gonna have to draw everything myself. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 05:25, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

'''Comment''': Finding a perfect image can be hard, finding one with a permission to use is nigh impossible ;) though you did great job with your recent find on [[DF2014:Night_creature]].

In my experience, if we can use an image its explicitly stated so, and there are few sources that host a large variety of those that suit our purpose. As for specialized searches, I had poor experience with google image search engine with user rights setting, I find it better to limit search to specific dedicated sites for example:

{| class=wikitable
| Commons || google image search: "search term site:https://commons.wikimedia.org"
|-
| DeviantArt|| google article search: "search term creative-commons site:deviantart.com/"
|}

Probably many others like [https://openclipart.org/detail/292259/caveman-frame openclipart]. As for drawing, not sure what your art style is, but [https://www.deanspencerart.com/blackwhite deanspencer] has a huge collection of filler art that might inspire you. I hope this helps. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:18, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

=== Again ===
Copyright issues, again: [[:File:Infected_blue_ghoul.jpg]], [https://www.deviantart.com/scottpurdy/art/Ghoul-196557534 original]. Google search can only point the way but you still need the license to be stated explicitly. For licensing purpose, it doesn't matter if the image was posted many times on facebook or if someone tagged it as creative common (we too had a lot of content tagged like that by mistake) its the same as googling tv shows on youtube, you can find some that hasn't been removed yet, but everyone knows its pirating. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:55, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
:This is starting to piss me off. Didn't one of us already ask this exact dude if we could use some of his stuff? This is confusing the hell out of me. I don't know if you knew this, but DeviantArt not only changed their layout recently, but MANY settings on license options. There were a few images on here that *I* helped airbrush years ago. Not that I'm using this as an excuse, but some of these images are absolutely plastered eeeeeverywheeeere on the net. I don't understand how we get slammed and no one else does. I'm gonna find my drawpad, my copies of Photoshop and Illustrator and doing this crap myself. I'd hope others here would do the same. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 11:33, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
:: If you created the image, have permission from the creator, have source where they released it under a suitable license etc then state that. But there is no license for found it on google and everyone else does it.
:: Otherwise, I whole heartedly agree that this can be frustrating, but we don't make the rules. I did suggest couple of ways above that might help you in your searches. I also hope more people will create DF art that we can use, unfortunately most aren't aware of your plight here, maybe you can take it further and create some sort of community art thread ([https://twitter.com/DwarfFortArt/status/1143933685500170240 akin to this]) where people are asked to state if they give permission to use it on the wiki. -[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 13:04, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

::No, we haven't contacted ScottPurdy. When looking for art to use on this wiki, you need to put a little bit of effort into figuring out if the art is licensed under Creative Commons or something similar, unfortunately Google's filter isn't foolproof:
::* Does it seem like the image was uploaded by the artist? If the image is on DeviantArt, Artstation, an artist's blog or website, it most likely was uploaded by the original artist. If the image appears on Pinterest, a wiki, an article, or a blog which features lots of different art, it probably wasn't uploaded by the original artist. You need to find where the art was originally uploaded to see which license applies to the art.
::* Read the image description: the artist might state there how they feel about reusing the art. The description can also tell if the art is taken from somewhere else, or if the copyright holder is someone other than the artist.
::* Does the page directly state that the image has a Creative Commons license or similar? If not, don't use the art on this wiki. On DeviantArt, this is mentioned at the bottom of the image description, above the comments.
::* If you find an artwork you'd like to use on this wiki, but the license doesn't allow it, ask the artist first. Only if they give you permission, upload the art here. [[User:Tanamoril|Tanamoril]] ([[User talk:Tanamoril|talk]]) 14:31, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Few more:
* [[:File:Cyclops_semi.png]] and [https://www.deviantart.com/ogi-g/art/Cyclops-200374804 original] - you can't google image window shop for "free" images on shady upload sites with no monitoring capabilities. Same with [[:File:Animal_train_comic.png]] and [https://picsart.com/i/sticker-mq-safari-zoo-wildlife-animal-animals-276907033001211 original].
* [[:File:Animal train comic.png]] "Was given permission" - permission by who? what sort of permission? be specific or we can't use this.
* [[:File:Dwarf beekeeper.jpg]] - Again, if it isn't explicitly said that you can use the image(specify license) then we can't use this. Just because a site didn't put up a license notice that you can find doesn't mean the material used there in is not copyrighted. Especially when this is a blog that post images from other sources. Which in this case its review of kruggsmash so at least you should specify {{tl|permission}}
* [[:File:Sheriff_dwarf.jpg]] - again doesn't matter where it was posted what license? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 15:11, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

And again:
* [[:File:Injured dwarf.png]] great image you found, however, I find the contrast between the detailed license info here and the lack of on [[:File:Giant_bat.png]] peculiar. Do we have a permission to use this [https://www.deviantart.com/adoptables-fur-one/art/Ahool-ADOPTABLE-459011550 copyrighted] image? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:29, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Regarding [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=File:Werewolf_preview.png&curid=41002&diff=264205&oldid=263306 this edit] - what license was updated? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:57, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
:I edited the wrong, sorry. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:56, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Regarding [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=File:Pickaxe_transparent.png&curid=40839&diff=264460&oldid=263558 this edit] - per [[User:Tanamoril/Copyright_violations]], please include attribution for those images, and not just in the edit history. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

== New image ==

What [[:File:Armok map render.png]] adds to [[world generation]] entry? We already have a lot of in-game screenshots illustrations. Showing medium/large world, animating the process and otherwise showing parts of menus relevant to what is talked about. While this render mostly shows the Arthurs skill with Inkscape. Pretty as it is, I am not sure it should stay, or at the least its description should emphasis that it isn't in-game anything (not a fancy tileset) but done manually with Inkscape (btw we have a couple of [[Utilities]] that does that automatically) and maybe a link to 'Osmlo Ospaz' succession game if it is indeed that. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 14:16, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

[[:File:Fishing docks.jpg]] very pretty image (personally, I love that style), however, i think it doesn't suits DF very well, there is no hint of ships\boats in-game fishing industry or otherwise, and here they are front and center plus very modern looking ones. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 19:42, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

== shabazik ==

Concerning this [[:File:Champ_dwarf.jpg]]. The artist, shabazik, on his page confirmed that he gave you permission to use his works. Recalling that he "[..]given permission for some non-commercial use of my works, if credited as the creator of said works". Currently the image is labelled with {{tl|Cc-by-sa-3.0}} is that license that he gave you, or was there some mixup with upload options\templates and {{tl|Permission from license selector}} is more suitable or another? --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 13:10, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
:Wouldn't either one be equally as good? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 13:51, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
::For who? Tanamoril prefers cc3, but I don't care either way. Just trying to make sure that we aren't misrepresenting by mistake what was agreed on --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 21:18, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
:::What if another template was made to rectify this? -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 13:04, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
:::: What did he agree to? From your comment, I gather that he didn't offered it under CC3, if the same as stated above then its essentially used with permission for non-commercial use with attribution. Personally I think permission covers that, but we can also add it as free text or as special template (if common enough). I don't know anymore than that user:Tanamoril‎ is the copyright master, I just wanted to figure if we can use more of his fantastic work. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 19:05, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

== Why can't we have an accurate picture of the Green Devourer? ==

There's no reason not to have more images of a species. There's no copyright issues, and if clarity is the issue then you should look into removing the innacurate depiction by Quimael (but again, I'd prefer multiple pictures)

[[User:Opdagon|Opdagon]] ([[User talk:Opdagon|talk]]) 11:57, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
:I don't think you understand why your image was removed. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 17:43, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
::Then please explain [[User:Opdagon|Opdagon]] ([[User talk:Opdagon|talk]]) 21:13, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
:::Don't take this the wrong way, but the images you made are... not exactly the most... detailed, let's say. All the other images on other pages range from beautiful pieces of art that could almost be put in a museum to more simple drawings, but still have some significant detail to them - including the crayon drawings by the creators of the game. I'm in no way pulling any rank when I say that, because even some of the ''my'' drawings were not at Picasso level, as I had to redraw/improve them in some way. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 21:34, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
::::I feel like an image is better having a few accurate details than a load of incorrect ones [[User:Opdagon|Opdagon]] ([[User talk:Opdagon|talk]]) 20:29, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::Yeeeaaahhhh... This is about more than the accuracy of the image. The one you posted looks like it was made in Microsoft Paint in under a minute. I don't mean that as a personal attack, as I'm just speaking on that one image. At least add some attractive details is what I'm driving at. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 01:57, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
::::::This is a wiki, not an art gallery. A bad drawing of a green devourer is much more important to have than a good drawing that gets everything wrong. And if it's really that important why don't ''you'' make a better accurate drawing? [[User:Opdagon|Opdagon]] ([[User talk:Opdagon|talk]]) 19:44, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::::Wiki or not, images should have at least a fraction of visual appeal to them. The entire point of wiki pages are - assuming there's enough info anyway - to make a page look as presentable as possible, and images should fall into that as well. Seeing as that I'm currently redrawing and replacing as many images here as I can, replacing your image is not exactly number one on my list right now. I'm starting to get the feeling that you're offended. Also, not every creature image here is perfectly accurate, including ones not posted by me. Accuracy or not, something should always be presentable. A Microsoft Paint image that's just an outline and some fill tool clicks is not presentable. A page would probably look better without an image at all than that. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 19:03, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::::: "assuming there's enough info anyway" What if there isn't? What if all the details of a creature's body are presented only in the form of a baroque chunk of code hidden at the base of the page? You're also dismissing all the effort that went into the image beyond simply drawing it: The research of comparing real animals to their raws, working out what sort of animal the Devourer is, justifying every organ and joint on its body to produce a creature both realistic and canonical to the game [[User:Opdagon|Opdagon]] ([[User talk:Opdagon|talk]]) 10:43, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::I heavily, and I mean I '''''heavily''''' believe that if you present something to the public, especially on the internet, you should give it your all. Or at least make it generally presentable. Because I'm a... relatively... "nice guy"... I won't remove anything you put up, but when I find the time, I'll show you an example of how your sea creature image should look. Once I do that, it will be up to you to replace it with mine or not. -- [[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 10:20, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
{{od|9}}
There is no requirement that images on the wiki meet a certain level of artistic quality. This one could arguably be interpreted as a diagram, and I think it's fine for it to be presented as a "second, anatomical" depiction. Images uploaded by their author also have the advantage of not running into copyright issues, as several of your uploads (Zippy) have. If you want to ''improve'' the visual quality without detracting from the intent of the image, then I personally wouldn't have any issues with that, but I do have issues with removing images because you don't think they "look good enough", particularly when looking good was not the intention. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:05, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

== copyright issues again ==

I see you still violating copyrights and your actions are still ignored by the admins.

: Most recent submission: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/File:Dingo_man.jpg

Again you seem to be google crawling on sites with shady practices. Again you have not received permission from copyright holder. Again you make up stuff.
: (1) "may be subject to copyright" means you have no idea what the copyright status is (including whether you are allowed to use it and/or modify it)
: (2) clearly there is watermark on the image, stating it is 'Copyrighted to Katie Hofgard 2013' which you removed.
: (3) you submission stating this image is "Free" and "The image has no license and/or is in the public domain."
: (4) took me 10second to find this: https://www.deviantart.com/katiehofgard/art/Elder-s-Wisdom-397661157

It is clear you are a copyright liability and every image submission of yours should be suspect of copyright violation --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 10:47, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
:Uuuuggghhhhh Christ... This again. I just went through all this with Lethosor. Mind you that a lot of these people took images they found themselves and slapped ''their'' watermarks on them because they made slight/moderate alterations to them.

Some of these images are absolutely everywhere, making it impossible to find out who the true artist or license was. I've had to send countless, and I mean COUNTLESS emails around to many sites, with a lot of these places taking weeks to respond. I've even turned to using AI drawing apps for images so I don't have to bother others for their art. I've even went to uncomfortable sites to ask for things.

I also convinced Lethosor to add a ton of extra templates to make license labeling easier, which is all over his talk page.

'''Edit:''' Yeah, just as I suspected. The image you linked was uploaded to DeviantArt before January 24, 2014. Back then, images were not automatically claimed, and users had to openly state otherwise. Though it seems this person started to make a calender with that image. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 16:34, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

:: Once again, '''the golden rule you need explicit disclaimer or permission from copyright holder, absence of their off means shit.'''
:::>''Some of these images are absolutely everywhere, making it impossible to find out who the true artist or license was.''
:: Doesn't matter; Thank you for all hardwork; see the golden rule.
:::>''Mind you that a lot of these people took images they found themselves and slapped ''their'' watermarks on them because they made slight/moderate alterations to them.''
:: Are you asserting that is the case here? Because it seem clear to me that you had no idea who the copyright holder was nor the copyright status of their work, and in no way in a position to state it is free.
:::>''Yeah, just as I suspected. The image you linked was uploaded to DeviantArt before January 24, 2014. Back then, images were not automatically claimed, and users had to openly state otherwise''
:: openly state like a big copyright watermark in the middle that you removed? Even if your rational were true, you didn't know that at the time of posting when you claiming the work was free.
:: I don't know what you talked about with Lethosor. I know that Tanamoril spent a lot of time on this with you and I will let the resident admin worry/ignore all these long term violations that we keep hosting (who knows maybe the servers are in copyright free haven)--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:32, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

:Again, https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/File:Gigantic_panda_preview.jpg
:If the copyrightholder (not the webmaster) "made it clear that this isn't used financially" then there is a (non commercial use) license and you can't tag it as PD. Public domain means that I can do whatever I want e.g. I can take it put my name on it, make commercial prints of it, sell them along side the original artists work in his shop and there is nothing legally he can do about it. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:37, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
{{od|1}}
I mean nothing personal when I ask this, but... is English not your primary language or something? Because some of what you say has some weird, ''weird'' grammar that makes you hard to follow.

You keep mentioning the watermark that I removed in that one image like a "gotcha!" moment. Damn right I removed that watermark, I thought it was some desktop background image (which is how that site presented it, according to that site.) You found the image on DeviantArt, but I asked the guy on Reddit if he cared about his work being used, and he didn't care (which would be a bit late and pointless for that anyway since it's all over the place). If you had any idea of the effort I put in and the amount of emails and DM's I send to the authors of these images (or the webmasters if the source is not clear), you wouldn't be typing so aggressively about this.

I asked a lot of these artists if I could use their work, since it's already on Pinterest/Tumblr/desktop background sites/etc and about 93% of them say they don't give a shit. A lot of these images are on so many other sites and wikis that it almost physically hurts trying to comprehend it. Let me paint a picture here, imagine something you made is ALL over the internet, on like maybe 50-100 sites... one of them being the Dwarf Fortress Wiki. Who's gonna go, "By golly! My image is on quite literally half of the entire internet, but out of ALL those sites, it being on Dwarf Fortress Wiki is what steam my clams!! All those other sites are one thing, but hot dog! That ONE site is the bad one! >=("

"If the copyrightholder (not the webmaster) "made it clear that this isn't used financially" then there is a (non commercial use) license and you can't tag it as PD. Public domain means that I can do whatever I want e.g. I can take it put my name on it, make commercial prints of it, sell them along side the original artists work in his shop and there is nothing legally he can do about it."

Fair enough, then I can change it to the "non-commercial" template. Don't get my words wrong, I'm not saying "some images are at more than one place so I can take what I want", but if you saw the replies I get about how nonchalant and accepting they are of their work being used here, it would be enough to write a very thick book. Moving on. Any time you want to report me to Lethosor or whatever, please feel free. In fact, I can do it for you.

No matter what the outcome is - whether I'm allowed to post preview pictures here or not... I'll be the victor. If I can still post images, great. If I can't... great. The Steam version has its own visuals anyway, almost negating the need for preview images. Using image search on Google also randomizes the site tickets, not always showing the image's exact source on the first search.

"the golden rule you need explicit disclaimer or permission from copyright holder, absence of their off means shit."

And if it doesn't exist? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 12:50, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

:Then you can't use it.

:I doubt English is the issue here, Tanamoril already explained all of this in fine English to anyone willing to listen. Furthermore he spent months on a [[:User:Tanamoril/Copyright violations|project]] to address mostly your notions about copyright. Fast forward half a year, I come back and the first thing I see on recent changes is that you still at it. Worse instead of addressing it you gave me the same excuses and ignored it.
:Anyway, I give up, this is the domain of admin responsibility. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 15:32, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

== cool images ==

Could be nice if you can acquire permission for this [https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/zdgw1r/i_feel_like_a_kid_on_christmas_eve_waiting_for/ image by josh mckelvey] - I think it is fantastic image, that use a simple and accurate depiction that connects the past with present --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 11:10, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
:I asked the guy just now, and he responded to me within minutes that it's fine. Proof of that is [https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/zdgw1r/comment/j163dth/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 here]. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 23:11, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
::Thanks! --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 09:59, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Just got reminded of [https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/nkofam/a_typical_elven_caravan_this_drawing_is_inspired/ this amazing old fanart], if you crossed path with artist it could be nice. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 22:35, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

== adding raw ==
I think you should hold on adding raws. --[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 17:32, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:I was only adding a few to test a template. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 17:34, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

:: alright, just keep in mind that most game raw files are handled by DFRawFunctions extension (You can check this by looking at the previous version namespace [https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2014:Cow/raw&action=edit for example].) And Lethosor [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki_talk:Versions#v50_migration|already working on it]]: "This will be addressed with an upgrade to the DFRawFunctions extension." Once done he will unleash a bot that will trump everything. Just a heads up to save you some time, otherwise go ahead and expirement--[[User:Jan|Jan]] ([[User talk:Jan|talk]]) 17:39, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:::Yes, please be aware that any changes you make to /raw pages will be overwritten. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:27, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
:::Is he also making templates that allow graphics? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 03:42, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
::::What templates are you referring to? —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 04:27, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
::Infoboxes. One that allows graphics instead of relying on colored letters at the top. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 13:21, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

== Animal fat picture ==
The current animal fat picture ( http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/3/39/Animal_fat.jpg ) is a picture of a wedge of soft cheese. Not a picture of subcutaneous fat. I suggest you either revert to your previous picture or find another more relevant picture. Kindly -[[User:GlitterLich|GlitterLich]] ([[User talk:GlitterLich|talk]]) 05:19, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
:I found the "revert" button for pictures, so I took the liberty of reverting it to the previous picture myself. -[[User:GlitterLich|GlitterLich]] ([[User talk:GlitterLich|talk]]) 10:46, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
::The place I found that picture said it was food made from a large amount of animal fat, so I thought that would fit. Also, you're a member on this wiki just as much as I am. Though you just reverted the image, you can upload better images at any time. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 17:14, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

== Classic graphics ==
Per [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Versions#Premium.2FClassic]], please don't remove classic graphics as you did on [[Status icon]] - they are still relevant for a current version of the game (as well as if classic graphics are turned on in premium builds). I've readded some as an example of an approach that can apply to both versions. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 05:53, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:That's what I wanted to do, but I wasn't quite finished with the page, and I couldn't find the right template. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 05:54, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::I just used something from [[DF Talk:Versions]]. We can certainly make it look nicer later, but I think it does the job adequately for now. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 06:03, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::Might as well slip this question in since I "have you"... or... you "have me". Is the wiki ever gonna undergo a CSS color overhaul? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 06:32, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
::::We have several skins available at [[Special:Preferences]] now, if you're interested. Other than that, I don't have plans to develop a custom skin myself. —[[User:Lethosor|Lethosor]] ([[User talk:Lethosor|talk]]) 06:34, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::Are you gonna make updated templates for the buildings/workshops/furnaces, or are you leaving that to us? --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] ([[User talk:Zippy|talk]]) 06:43, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

== Labors in v50 ==

Hey just noticed you removed the labor categories on Ashery, I'm not sure I totally agree with that. I tend to use a lot of custom labor categories and it's helpful to see the labors required be listed on the wiki for each task. The discord sees quite a few people confused about why "dwarf X isn't doing Y even though is profession X". Labor requirements should still be listed IMO. [[User:Vallode|Vallode]] ([[User talk:Vallode|talk]]) 09:53, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

User talk:Jan

2023-01-03T09:52:40Z

Vallode:

User:Vallode

2023-01-03T09:44:43Z

Vallode: Create User:Vallode

Hey if you're here I probably messed something up. Leave me a note!

User talk:Jan

2023-01-03T09:43:52Z

Vallode: /* Labors in v50 */ new section

User:Vallode/sandbox

2023-01-03T09:39:56Z

Vallode: Create Vallode/sandbox

==In-game border==

<span style="
border-image-slice: 10 10 10 10 fill;
border-image-width: 10px 10px 10px 10px;
border-image-outset: 0px 0px 0px 0px;
border-image-repeat: repeat repeat;
border-image-source: {{filepath:v50-border-sprite-fill.png}};
border-style: solid;
display: inline-block;
padding: 12px;">A migrant wave has arrived!

File:B50-border-sprite-fill.png

2023-01-03T09:37:17Z

Vallode: Vallode moved page File:B50-border-sprite-fill.png to File:V50-border-sprite-fill.png: Fix name

#REDIRECT [[File:V50-border-sprite-fill.png]]

File:V50-border-sprite-fill.png

2023-01-03T09:37:17Z

Vallode: Vallode moved page File:B50-border-sprite-fill.png to File:V50-border-sprite-fill.png: Fix name

== Summary ==
In-game border with background fill