Dwarf Fortress Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Main Page/Quote

2009-10-14T12:13:11Z

Kurokikaze: /* Döbesh Udosdeb has been ecstatic lately. He was forced to eat a friend to survive. He enjoyed a truly decadent meal. */

== How to add quotes: ==

* Go to the line of the last quote.
* Add a line immediately after it (this should be before the closing }} brackets)
* type "|YOUR-QUOTE-HERE" on that line
:(The quote number is not functionally necessary, but it allows keeping track of how many quotes there are without counting)
* Look at the first line of the template
:It should look something like this:
<pre>{{Choose|c={{rand|37}}</pre>
*Adjust the number that is in the place of the 37 to reflect the number of quotes in the list.
*Preview your reply to make sure nothing is broken (or someone will be able to see it on the main page before it gets fixed)
*Profit!
[[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 00:34, 27 February 2008 (EST)

== When to add quotes: ==

So. We have a small problem here. People add quotes, people remove quotes, people un-remove quotes, and people make edit war. Suggestion: 
:Rough guidelines for [[Main Page/Quote]]:
:*New quotes are freely added.
:*Those quotes are freely removed.
:*If <user> wants to get quotes re-added, <user> can make a section here stating that they should be and asking for opinion.
:*If consensus doesn't state "no, don't re-add them" for a while, the quotes can be freely added.
:*If <user2> wants to get quotes re-removed once the previous consensus is old, <user2> can make a similar section.
:*Etcetera.
--[[User:Savok|Savok]] 18:24, 7 March 2009 (EST)
::I approve. --[[User:Senso|Senso]] 18:53, 7 March 2009 (EST)
__TOC__

== Screenshots ==
The [http://www.dfwk.ru/index.php/%D0%97%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0 russian wiki] has made use of the system here to show random DF screenshots rather than quotes. I think this is a rather clever idea. Maybe we have a good spot where we could place something similar? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 14:59, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

: Neat Idea. We could have one quote and one screenshoot. But we should define a standard size for the screenshot. --[[User:Karl|Karl]] 15:36, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

::200x150 would make it fit the 800x600 curses, with proportional distortion all around, without taking up much in the way of page real estate. If the real estate is deemed not quite so valuable, then 400x300 would work even better, suffering half the overall distortion (but still maintaining a relatively small footprint, and keeping aspect ratio intact.) Unless we're happy with the smaller size I suggested, a page overhaul is going to be needed to find a place to put it, such that it doesn't make a jumble out of the rest of it. (Conversely, I think the 200x150 would fit very neatly in the space already allotted to one of the quotes.) --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 21:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

:Also, it could easily be arranged so that quotes and screenshots are paired. That way each screenshot has an accompanying caption. It would take quite a bit of work to get images for the current ones, though. I guess we could start them off as random stuff and switch them out as we go. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 02:40, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

:: How does one add screenshots? -- [[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 06:53, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
:::Which part don't you get? Saving screenshot, uploading image, adding it to the main page?
:::Assuming you mean the last bit - see [[Template talk:Sg]] - there should be some better form of documentation for [[Main page]] shouldn't there![[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]][[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 09:52, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

== "[B]loats" ==

For what it's worth, the nowiki formatting around square bracketed 'B' in the Toady quote about boats was simply in the interests of quoting accuracy; the original word was not capitalized and I still have that kind of formatting in my heart from college paper citations. --[[User:Alfador|Alfador]] 12:16, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

:Ah. It looked to me like a weird, failed boats/bloats pun. I don't think it really matters; you can change it back if you like. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 17:19, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

::Thank you! And done. --[[User:Alfador|Alfador]] 11:27, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

== Quote removal ==

Say, why was the "interrupted by carp" quote removed? I loved that one. --[[User:JT|JT]] 02:58, 13 April 2008 (EDT)

:Blame Savok, he thought it was unfunny. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMario]] 16:22, 24 April 2008 (EDT)

And regarding VengefulDonut stripping off that last one, PTTG's quote was simply hilarious. If you can't laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at? --[[User:JT|JT]] 02:19, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

Thinking on this some more, the idea that anyone can just reverse a quote at their leisure strikes me as unusual. If a quote is an obvious spam, that's one thing; if a quote is something that ''you'' don't think of as funny, I think there should be some sort of consensus system involved. There are at least a couple existing quotes that I don't find funny in the slightest (Spiders Everywhere, you've been processed, GreyMario's), but I don't remove them. --[[User:JT|JT]]

My 2☼ on the subject: 
Unless a quote is offensively directed at a particular user/person, I don't see how there are any grounds for removal. 
If it is, it's perfectly acceptable for the addressed person to remove it, if they so choose. 
Additionally, you may remove quotes of yourself, whether or not they're offensive, regardless of who added the quote. 
In all cases, it's the sole responsibility of the addressed person to remove a quote, not someone else. 
I think that makes sense.. but perhaps I'm too far off base? --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 07:37, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

:When anyone is able to add a quote at their leisure, we will naturally end up with plenty of quotes that aren't funny. If anyone is able to remove a quote at their leisure, quotes that aren't funny will disappear. This is parallel to the wikipedia editing process in general, and I think this kind of process has decent results. Although I am open to other proposals.
:On the topic of racy jokes: I'm sure there are plenty of group-targeted jokes that could be stated in DF terms that would be very funny; just pick a group, a metaphor, and a stereotype. But even if you tell a member of that group to grow a thicker skin or to stop taking themselves seriously or learn to take a joke, it doesn't turn the joke from something alienating to something entertaining. In the right context, those kinds of jokes can be very funny even to those on the butt end of them. Standup comedians succeed or fail based on their ability to create it. But I don't think that the front page is the right context. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 10:24, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

::Unless its blantantly offensive I don't think "unfunny" is a reason to remove a quote, we each have our own sense of humour, such debate should be placed here on the discussion page imo. --[[User:Markavian|Markavian]] 20:30, 25 May 2008 (EDT)

:::Bleh. I'd like to, but nobody answers most discussion page debates in reasonable time. If we become more regularly active in discussion page debates (which isn't hard - we've got several that any experienced player can add to), we might be able to do that. As it is, the responses are usually at least a few days, often months apart. And then, occasionally, we get one that has five people with fifteen comments in a day or two. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 23:45, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

As I've said before, if you want to revert those of my deletes that you really think should stay, that's fine. The way I see it, and the way some have said before me, anybody can, if they think it's funny enough, add a quote to the page. Of course, we will get some pretty poor quotes that way, so anyone can, if they dislike it enough, delete a quote from that page. If an edit war occurs, we can take it to the talk page (with the war attention, we'll actually have commenters), where it can be resolved. We Are Not Wikipedia. We're too small for that; everyone knows everyone else and anyone can monitor all edits if they have a little time to spend. 
--[[User:Savok|Savok]], rambling at 23:45, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

== [http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=19686.msg206978#msg206978 Too untasteful?] ==

I found this on the forums:
<div style="width: 12em; padding: 0.5em; margin-bottom: 1em; border: 1px solid #ccc; background: #eee; text-align: center">''Belbezevost Närangagak Äkig:'' 
Goatsects the Raw Red Anus of Stretching</div>
For? Against? --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 22:56, 24 June 2008 (EDT)

I'm for it. DF has people exploding in gore. Besides, these words are in the game anyway.
-- [[User:InquisitorSaturn|InquisitorSaturn]] 01:44, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

I'm for it. Lets be honest; how many people are likely to come to this wiki that aren't mature enough to enjoy a little mature humor. If anything people are more likely to complain that it didn't make them laugh then that they are worried that kids might see it. --[[User:Silver|Silver]] 01:29, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

:Nobody gives a fuck about the kids, man. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 22:32, 29 October 2008 (EDT)

For - Very funny and clever --[[User:Cultiststeve|cultiststeve]] 17:33, 15 January 2009 (EST)

Against. I think it might be funny once or twice, but it is not necessarily something that I want to see on the front page for hours until the quote changes again. --[[User:i2amroy|i2amroy]] 10:26 June 14 (MST)

:Mmmm... against. When there were 2 quotes on the page, maybe. But now that there's only 1, I'd rather not have this be "representative" of any DF experience, when it's simply not. In fact, it has nothing to do with DF - it's just crude. (Not that that's a bad thing - it just has nothing to do with DF.) --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 19:41, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

== Multi-Line Quotes ==

I assumed your multi-line quote was an error because it rendered incorrectly when it appeared on http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Main_Page/Quote , and did so again when you restored the original. I've re-re-restored it in the interests of peace but I do note that the text extends outside the box and one line actually appears below the box. I'm less certain whether it appears this way on the main page. Perhaps we need a different way to enter multi-line quotes? --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 15:39, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

:The quote that's causing problems is kinda long, either way. How about we just bonk it on the head?--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 19:15, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
::But it's funny. :( --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 01:55, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

:Just out of curiosity, what browser? It appears just fine in Firefox 2. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 17:39, 4 November 2008 (EST)
::Firefox 3. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 15:19, 11 November 2008 (EST)

:My multi-line quote (shown below) doesn't appear to break anything (browser used: Firefox 3). --[[User:Beerdude26|Beerdude26]] 15:26, 22 January 2009 (EST)

<blockquote>
|'''Zander J:''' "Is there a way to stop immigration without setting the population cap?"

'''Yanlin:''' "Magma."
</blockquote>

== Okay wtf who broke shit where. ==

On the main page, the second random quote is just a '. WHAT GIVES? --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 14:32, 20 November 2008 (EST)
:I can't find any recent changes to the code of the selector, and given that the first selector works, it's hard to blame a syntax error either. The mainpage does a weird thing to guarantee the quotes are different, passing |1 to the page as a parameter or...something. Someone who knows wikicode may know what's going on. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 15:13, 20 November 2008 (EST)

::The problem is a bit deeper. [[template:rand]] and [[template:rand2]] use the mod function inside a #expr to mod the current timestamp and return a number in a specified range. The mod function is returning negative values for large inputs (this is a bug). Since it seems I can't guarantee a positive number will have a positive mod, I don't know how to modify the templates to make sure they keep returning positive numbers. Smaller inputs would be nice, but I need it to vary with time, and those are the ones that are blowing it up. Also, I don't have absolute value or any binary number operations, so those methods are out. Absolute value would be available with a newer version of parser functions, but convincing [[user:senso|Senso]] is an obstacle there. I'm really not sure how to remedy this. Anyone have ideas? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 19:43, 20 November 2008 (EST)

::: I say divide the end result before modulusing by 4. That'll still give pseudo-random numbers, just less often, and might work until a better fix rears its not-so-ugly head. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 20:12, 20 November 2008 (EST)

:::: <s>Good idea. I'll try it. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 20:21, 20 November 2008 (EST)</s>
:::: Didn't work. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 20:23, 20 November 2008 (EST)
:::: Feel free to fool around with [[template:rand]] and push a fix if you can find one. Just make sure to preview. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 20:24, 20 November 2008 (EST)

:::::Ah well, it was worth a shot. I'll see what I can come up with in the [[Template:Sandbox|sandbox]]. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 20:31, 20 November 2008 (EST)
:::::<s>UPDATE: It appears using <tt><nowiki>{{#expr: ((({{LOCALTIMESTAMP}} / 1024) + {{CURRENTDAY}} + {{CURRENTMONTH}}) mod {{{1|100}}}) + 1}}</nowiki></tt> seems to produce positive numbers for now. I'll go update [[Template:Rand2]] and see if it works.</s> <s>So much for that, but at least it was returning positive numbers. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 20:42, 20 November 2008 (EST)</s>
:::::Okay, I blame certain things being slow for the fact that it works over in the Sandbox but not in the Main Page/Quote template. :S But the good news is, it's at least producing a result over at the sandbox. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 20:54, 20 November 2008 (EST)

:::Can you use an <nowiki> {{ #ifexpr: {{{num}}} >= 0 | {{{num}}} | {{ #expr: {{{num}}} * -1 }} }} </nowiki> to replace abs? (I may have the syntax slightly wrong.)--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 04:09, 21 November 2008 (EST)

::::Good call, Maximus. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 09:04, 21 November 2008 (EST)

:::::You know, I thought of that just last night but was too busy falling asleep. :( --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 15:21, 21 November 2008 (EST)

::::::I stole it off your desk.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 18:06, 21 November 2008 (EST)

:Here we go again! It's started displaying the telltale ' again. D: --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 00:05, 27 November 2008 (EST) UPDATE: It's just gone away again. Might be worth a try to check the conditions next time it does it D: --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 00:08, 27 November 2008 (EST)

::Should be fixed now. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 18:04, 6 December 2008 (EST)

== What's This Jreengus Stuff About, Anyway? ==

Googling it just gets me pages telling me it's funny for those in the know somehow. If any place ought to have an explanation it's the wiki. That's what it's there for! :) --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 13:05, 21 November 2008 (EST)

:Kobolds speak gibberish. The code that named an event allowed the kobolds to name it (when they won? maybe.), and that caused the name of an event to sometimes be a single word of gibberish. Toady mentioned that somewhere in some part of the dev notes.
:That's it. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 17:17, 21 November 2008 (EST)

== Döbesh Udosdeb has been ecstatic lately. He was forced to eat a friend to survive. He enjoyed a truly decadent meal. ==

Haaaaawhaaahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaa. Awesome. We need more quotes that are as funny as this. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 17:48, 25 November 2008 (EST)
:How many people can understand dwarven without dictionary? :) Anyway, the quote is still funny as is. [[User:Kurokikaze|Kurokikaze]] 12:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

== Long quotes ==

"Engraved on the wall is a masterfully designed image of a dwarf engraving a wall. The engraving is a dwarf engraving a wall. The engraving is a dwarf engraving a wall. The engraving is a dwarf engraving on a wall. The engraving is a dwarf engraving on a wall. The engraving is a dwarf mining out a wall." Yes this is a long quote but it's also funny, why ditch it? I didn't see any long quotes breaking the mainpage the way multi-line quotes did. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 15:59, 12 December 2008 (EST)

:They make the main page look like crap by stretching the quote box and pushing down everything else. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 16:31, 12 December 2008 (EST)
:Surely there are other places to put funny things. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 16:33, 12 December 2008 (EST)

::Not really, unless you mean 'keep this stuff off the wiki'. No, quotes aren't a big deal. They're just fun, i.e. 'the entire point'. ;p The Quote_Archive is an obvious aging relic, and ought to go anyway since there's no sense having multiple, separate pages of slightly different functionality and identical content patchily duplicating each other. I wonder if the quote wikicode could be done the other way around... I might play around on my talk page and see if I can build a useful something. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 17:33, 12 December 2008 (EST)

:::The Quote Archive was originally created as a place for quotes to go to never be deleted, so that it wouldn't be that bad if someone lost a quote from Main Page/Quote. When I created it, I didn't realize the effort it would take to update it, so I'm going to go over there now and clean it up, making it all plaintext.
:::Also, I concur with Vengeful that the long quotes are overly ugly on the main page. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 22:35, 12 December 2008 (EST)
::::Not arguing with that. I usually run screens at a high resolution so I didn't notice the stretching myself. I do think multiple quote pages is pointless though, 'specially considering folk like me will happen upon them and helpfully transfer stuff from one to the other... Not that I would, but I had often considered doing so, obviously misunderstanding your intent in all that duplicate information. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 00:15, 13 December 2008 (EST)

:I agree in principle - many recently deleted are not (imo) a dealbreaker, but there has to be a limit somewhere. I just posted a guideline at the top of the page which reads:
::LIMIT QUOTES TO 150 CHARACTERS (as most are below)
::LONGER QUOTES MAY BE SNIPPED OR DELETED!
:- which seems the max currently. (Only visible when editing, allcaps for max visibility/impact.)
:I also edited several existing long quotes into shorter, acceptable format - some of those were funny, and while changing others' quotes is not my preferred option, this is a wiki, and it's that or lose them.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 04:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

== Edit Warring ==
I see GreyMario has taken it upon himself to remove quotes by the dozen, most of which had previously been added back after someone noticed their mysterious absence. Clearly your sense of humor is not everyone's or people wouldn't have to keep adding them back, could you just leave it be instead of editwarring? Can someone give us a revert, please? --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 23:24, 4 January 2009 (EST)

:Except they were removed because they were unfunny by popular vote. People should really put it up to a vote when it comes to adding them back. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 01:24, 5 January 2009 (EST)

::I must have missed this, where did it happen? --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 14:21, 5 January 2009 (EST)

:::In general, I think the replacement of deleted quotes is more of a problem than their deletion. As long as they are added just once and deleted just once, we won't have an edit war even with conflicting views of humor. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 09:28, 11 January 2009 (EST)

I agree, most of those votes were not funny. They were not even remotely close to my "mind like a +whatever trap+" quote, and it's hard to be worse than that and still funny. Anyway, edit warring=no, people should ask what happened to them and it then should be explained exactly what did happen. Personally, I think that they should be left on the quote archive, but not popping up on the main page for all to see.--[[User:Destor|Destor]] 12:12, 5 January 2009 (EST)

== 6 deleted quotes - call for opinions ==

Here are 6 quotes that were deleted after being added. I believe they are worth keeping - wouldn't have added them if I didn't, but one other user disagreed enough to delete them all. Opinions on any or all are requested.

:*Look, there's sentient lava outside, & the only survivor is issuing mandates to the empty halls. This isn't going to get better.
::Goddamn I am ''sick'' of this constant editwarring. If I went around removing everything I didn't think was funny the quotes page would be cut in half, but I try to respect other people's content and acknowlege other people's sense of humor. This was not a misquote originally, someone just shortened it into one, and butchered both the content and the english language in the process. "There's sentient lava outside" is perilously close to lolspeak. "There are roving clumps of sentient lava outside", on the other hand, is a mental picture that gets a laugh reaction from 4/5 folks I show it to. I'm putting it back. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 20:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Vengeful donut took this to my talk page for some reason, I'm responding here. Humor is a matter of taste, unlike most of the rest of the wiki, and one person shouldn't try and define it for everyone. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 23:44, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

:*On the forums is a masterful rendition of an image of a human reading a dwarf fortress wiki. The human has '''no clue''' what is going on.

:*Seeing a dwarf give birth while sparring was scary, but worse was when she picked the child up & continued fighting.

:*The merchants won't leave because I killed their guys & I can't drown them because there's a shoe in the floodgate.

:*All I do is lure the gobbos in and throw the lever to flood the central chamber, & the goblins start sorting themselves by density.

:*The mayor sent me to kill the crocodile that killed my last 3 characters - again... I think he's catching on that I want to kill him.
--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 06:49, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

::It's worth noting that these are all misquotes. They have been modified from their original versions. Since these is a list of '''quotes''' rather than just '''jokes''' misquotes do not belong here. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 07:57, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

:::IMO, we don't even credit the quotes so it's not ''that'' important to keep the original phrase intact. The quotes are here to add a funny aspect to the front page, it's not like we're quoting the President about some Important Matter. If a quote breaks the box, I say it's fine to shorten it until it fits, as long as the original spirit is kept. We could always ask the quote's author for their approval, if it's that important. Can we track the origin of those quotes? If not, let's edit them since nobody can prove they're actual quotes anyway. --[[User:Senso|Senso]] 13:52, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

::::If we're not going to pretend that we're quoting people, perhaps we should rename the page. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 16:16, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

:::::A bunch of sentences without any credits are not proper quotes so in fact, the Quotes page has never really been about quoting people, it's seen as a repository of funny quips about DF. Personally, I don't think it's important enough to start finding all the real authors and adding the authors to the quotes when they appear on the front page. We're not going to bicker about the definition of the word "Quote" and if it's a valid designation or not for that page, I'll leave that kind of debate for Wikipedia. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the "quotes" were made up for that list anyway. My final opinion is this: The more sentences we have in that list the better, I don't mind if there is no source attribution. --[[User:Senso|Senso]] 00:19, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

::I like quote 2 (forum + wiki) so much that I'ld be willing to re-add it myself; don't care about the rest. --[[User:MathFox|MathFox]] 15:43, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

:'''Restore''' And I'll also echo Senso's sentiments on the matter. -[[User:N9103|Edward]]

== Signatures ==

Do we want to include signatures? ("Toady" and a few other notables being exceptions). Isn't that a bit against the anonymous/collective idea of a wiki? Doesn't that personalize the edits and hurt the overall process? (And risk turning this into a "look at me!" page?)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 21:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

:That sounds like a fine idea, if someone sees a quote with somebody's sinature, they can just delete the signature. --[[User:Frandude|Frandude]] 18:54, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

== Redirects in Quotes ==

Do you guys really think we should have [[]]'s in quotes? They mights help a bit, but it seems to take away a bit of the vibe. Thoughts about taking them down?
:I think the links are appropriate for drawing in and directing new users. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 17:47, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

40d Talk:Noble

2009-10-14T11:15:33Z

Kurokikaze: /* Selling Nobles */

== Nobles affected by Reclaiming? ==

My current fortress is a reclaimed one, due to a fire that got into one of my guardtowers' food storage. In the old fortress, I had managed to get a Baron, who was soon skipping right up to Duke and Incoming king after a couple of immigrants. Well, after reclaiming, I proceeded as normal, except, even though my value is still incredibly high from the fortress (1 million+ created wealth, and 400k exported, now), I recieved a count within it's specified area of requirement, but not the Baron before. Even still, My Count does not seem to be upgrading to Duke anytime soon, seeing as I have 188 dwarves, now. Anyone have any ideas, now? [[User:Jwguy|Jwguy]] 12:56, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

== Noble Additions and Requirements ==

Added the dungeon keeper noble. He just showed up at my fort in year 1053. --[[Idles]]

I'm "fixing" the change, "16:59, 31 October 2007 Lightning4 (Talk | contribs) (1,934 bytes) (→Appointments - Isn't called bookkeeper, at least when the fortress is new.)", because in my forts it IS called bookkeeper when the fortress starts. Other edits have backed me up, suspect editor was confused--Please discuss this here? --[[User:Sowelu|Sowelu]] 15:09, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

:I apologize, I was indeed incorrect. You do start with a Bookkeeper, which in very short order can be upgraded to a Treasurer. Unsure of requirements, possibly only requires 20 dwarves like the sheriff. My fortress has one and I haven't even done anything besides changed who had bookkeeping and set it to higher priority (did not build study yet). That's probably what got me confused since the bookkeeper upgrades very quickly. [[User:Lightning4|Lightning4]] 18:11, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

::Yeah, 20 dwarves sounds accurate enough to put in there. He didn't turn when I had only 17. --[[User:Sowelu|Sowelu]] 18:14, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

"Your original expedition leader will be the fourth dwarf down in the starting screen(the one in the middle)." This does not seem to hold true; I have a newly-developed habit of making the last dwarf on the screen (used to be my designated hauler-peasant) into the administrator, with all the social skills for filling the four starter noble roles. He gets auto-assigned to all four administrative positions; I'm thinking that instead of being fixed or random, the starting assignment is based on social skills. --[[User:Alfador|Alfador]] 00:29, 1 November 2007 (EDT)

I had a Philosopher show up last night. I'm unsure of the requirement to get him; the only really notable thing that had happened was I got over 100 dwarves. I'm adding him to the list of Nobles, though, since I can confirm he still exists in the new version. I also divided the page structure between Appointed and Immigrant nobles, since the current header was misleading (Dungeon Master and Philosopher cannot be appointed). --[[User:Zurai|Zurai]] 20:55, 10 November 2007 (EST)

I had the king show up tonight. "The King arrives, dressed as a peasant." I have no idea what the requirements were. I missed the 1051 and 1052 dwarf caravans due to prolonged sieges, and had no immigrants those years. 1053 I had the caravan; a season later a wave of immigration brought my total dwarves up to 37. In the spring the king arrived, along with enough others to bring the population to 63. At that time I was notified that the Captain of the Guard position was available. Only thing I can think is that I hit adamantine during the siege years, and mistakenly built a number of ridiculously valuable adamantine objects. (Door, Coffin, etc.) This has raised my fortress value to 1.3 million. Is 1 million value perhaps the trigger? I have no coins, and no nobles other than the starting 4 positions. I did not appoint a sheriff. [[User:Doctorlucky|Doctorlucky]] 04:15, 15 November 2007 (EST)
:In the last version, hitting adamantine without proper requirement for the king triggered the reaction of having the king arrive dressed as a paysant. Maybe it's the same here. --[[User:Eagle of Fire|Eagle of Fire]] 04:20, 15 November 2007 (EST)
== What determines expedition leader? ==

There are a number of situations to test out:
* No social skills on any dwarves
** ''Probably random, possibly based on the Dwarf's thoughts and preferences''
* Majority of social skills on one dwarf (various positions in start order)
** ''Test case 1: only one dwarf has social skills - gives that dwarf as leader and all positions''
* Social skills spread between multiple dwarves
** Is there any weight on which skill determines the leader?
--[[User:Shagie|Shagie]] 01:25, 1 November 2007 (EDT)

:Is the first point certain? In my current fortress, I didn't assign any social skills to any dwarf, and I'm pretty certain that the dwarf that ended up expedition leader was the seventh in the list. --[[User:Peristarkawan|Peristarkawan]] 02:28, 2 November 2007 (EDT)
::In my current fort I assigned no social skills and the first dwarf in the list, one of my miners, is the expedition leader. --[[User:Moller|Moller]] 02:40, 2 November 2007 (EDT)
:::Might be randomised then, I started three new fortresses for the test and each time it was the same so I made an assumption. Obviously this isn't the case can you two check what thoughts/prefs you have for those so we can look for some leadership criteria. --[[User:Shades|Shades]] 08:10, 2 November 2007 (EDT)
::::It's almost always been the first dwarf for me (assuming no one had leadership skills), but I could have sworn one time it assigned someone else. Maybe it defaults to the first dwarf on the list but can sometimes choose someone else under certain conditions. [[User:Rpb|Rpb]] 22:29, 10 November 2007 (EST)
:::::Perhaps the first dwarf didn't get it because of negative preferences? Some dwarves have a line in their thoughts/prefs that reads something like "X prefers to let others take leadership roles". [[User:Tocky|Tocky]] 11:04, 11 November 2007 (EST)

==Room requirements==
Maybe something about the nobles requiring better rooms and how to build them? --[[User:Mizipzor|Mizipzor]] 15:15, 4 November 2007 (EST)
:Found it in [[room]]s, adding a link. --[[User:Mizipzor|Mizipzor]] 15:34, 4 November 2007 (EST)

The [[How do I increase the value of a room quickly and easily]] page seems to be a pretty helpful page, but so far what links to it may not be much help when someone is in a pinch with their nobles ([[Door]], [[Room]], [[Furniture]] and the [[Frequently Asked Questions]]). After all, I assume that page exists for that constant problem with nobles where your new Duke requests a "Grand" dining room and DAMMIT, the best you can do is a "Decent" dining room and that sweet, kick-ass, dolomite dining table with the chrysoberyls the image of a dwarf striking down a goblin isn't ready yet because your legendary Gem Setter is "Attending Party". So perhaps a link on the Nobles page should also exist? [[User:3lB33|3lB33]] 15:07, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

:New pages are largely useless without links - feel free! If you see a need, then, by definition, there is one.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 17:11, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The room requirement for consorts is not clear. Seeing that they are married, don't they share a single bedroom with their spouse? Is this an exception to the law of marriage? The same questions hold for dining rooms and tombs. --[[User:Aykavil|Aykavil]] 09:18, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

== Not 100? ==

I just received migrants. My population went from 76 to 100, and my settlement went from a village to a town. No nobles arrived with the migrants. [[User:Geekwad|Geekwad]] 17:14, 18 November 2007 (EST)
:Still a town at 108
:Another wave, and we're a city at 111 (migrants still incoming)
::My population went from 101 to 126 in one wave. A Baroness arrived at the same time and turned my settlement into a Barony. Shortly afterwards, my settlement turned into a County (125+ dwarves?). Then Baroness upgraded into a Countess. Baron consort upgraded to a Count Consort.--[[User:Slumber|Slumber]] 16:49, 19 November 2007 (EST)
::Next immigration wave, my pop hit 138. Nothing happens. Then next immigration wave, my pop hits 141, the Countess upgrades to Duchess and the Count Consort upgrades to Duke Consort. Also, "Incoming King" is the top line on the Nobles screen. When you select it, it shows you what you need to achieve in terms of 1. architecture value (15000) 2. road value (5000) and 3. offerings value. (5000). I'm not sure what criteria triggers the King as it happened at the same time as my Duchess. I did just hit 200k exported wealth. Conincedence? --[[User:Slumber|Slumber]] 10:27, 20 November 2007 (EST)
::Another wave, jumped to 161 pop, and some more nobles, a Duke and his Duke Consort. Now I have both a Duke and Duchess!--[[User:Slumber|Slumber]] 14:06, 20 November 2007 (EST)
:I was made a city and a barony at 110, and promoted to county almost immediately after. No new immigration happened, and I hadn't reached the 120 mark yet. [[User:Rpb|Rpb]] 16:27, 24 November 2007 (EST)
:The last immigration wave brought me from 98 to a total of 124 including baron/consort, tax collector and hammerer. It is now a City and a Barony. I'll watch out if it changes on the first immigrant from the next wave.I currently have over 500k created wealth and 17000 exported.--[[User:Another|Another]] 16:05, 24 November 2007 (EST)
:One child is born and now my total population is 125. Still a City and a Barony.--[[User:Another|Another]] 09:23, 25 November 2007 (EST)
:My fortress was upgraded to County when the caravan left the map and my exported wealth leaped from 17k to 26k. The trigger for the County must be either 20k or 25k exported wealth. --[[User:Another|Another]] 12:47, 25 November 2007 (EST)
::Baron arrived during an immigration wave going from 88 to 112 dwarves, and upgraded to a Count not long after arrival but ''not'' immediately either (perhaps as the population went over 100?). Exported wealth was probably around 50k at the time. Now at 119 (and 80k exported) and not yet a Duke. Looks like there's a combination of factors involved. [[User:Cim|Cim]] 11:10, 14 December 2007 (EST)
:Upgrade of the fortress to Duchy was at exactly 140th dwarf from an immigration wave. "The Incoming King" included. Total created wealth - 950k, total exported - 30k.--[[User:Another|Another]] 16:37, 1 December 2007 (EST)
: My Baron arrived in the immigration wave that took me over 100 (I had peaked at 96 previously) but this was also the season where I crossed the 50,000 threshold on exported wealth. I actually went from 48,000 to 62,000 over the course of the year, and the baron arrived in the Spring, I did have an immigration wave after crossing 50,000 in the fall. Almost immediately after my baron arrived, he was promoted to count. My population is 119. --[[User:Mitchy|Mitchy]] 16:41, 3 January 2008 (EST)
:At exported wealth 45k, my Baron promoted to Count at the 110th immigrant. (Baron arrived in the first immigration wave after getting 80 population, can't remember what exported wealth was then) [[User:Cim|Cim]] 20:12, 5 January 2008 (EST)
:Population at 93 no Baron. Next wave - first person to arrive is a Countess, with this wave population went to 114. (So, had no Baron at all) --[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 23:39, 10 January 2008 (EST)

Verified about 140 limit for Duke. My Wrestler have given birth to a boy, the populationd got to 140, and the next message is about the fortress becoming a capital of Duchy. --[[User:Dorten|Dorten]] 00:10, 24 January 2008 (EST)

== Queen As Peasant ==

I had dug out some raw adamantine, not done anything with it, and I got a notification that 'Your ruler has arrived disguised as a peasant.' At the same time, my Dungeon Master arrived. I don't have an announcement in the log about the Queen, but I do about the DM. I'm treating her like it's legit, what's the deal?

:Your ruler has heard of the discovery of adamantine, and hurried to yuor fort to oversee the digging. She turned up "disguised as a peasant" because your fort doesn't meet the regular requirements for attracting the monarch and moving to your site officially would be embarassing (in roleplaying/story terms of course). She's perfectly legit, just wasn't attracted in the "conventional" sense by having the largest, wealthiest fort in the civilisation you belong to.--[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 06:42, 26 April 2008 (EDT)

== Baron mandates "crowns"? ==

I just got a baron, and the first thing he mandates is two crowns. So i type Crown into the jobs/manager list. nothing. So I type crown in dwarf wiki. Nothing. Can anyone help before I have to drop this noble into a pit to keep him from locking up my crafters?
:Info about specific crafts isn't present in the new wiki, but a crown is in fact a "craft" item. [http://archive.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Craftsdwarf%27s_Workshop#Crafts You can see the old wiki info about crafts here]. You'll probably need to set several crafting jobs to get a crown since the item produced by a crafting task is random with several possibilities. --[[User:Janus|Janus]] 00:06, 1 February 2008 (EST)

== Killing nobles ? ==

Is killing nobles dangerous ? (does it stop immigrations or something ?)

Because I've got a Count totally uncontrolable, who can't stop throwing tantrums in the middle of my fortress, which is somewhat tiresome... So, if I just can lock him into his bedroom and let him starve to death, it would be great, but I don't know if it won't cause more problems..

(Also, sorry for my bad english, I'm french)
[[User:Timst|Timst]] 05:40, 26 April 2008 (EDT)

:Killing off your nobles only really has the penalties associated with killing any other dwarf - their friends and family will be upset, and you lose that dwarf's abilities. In the case of nobles a replacement will usually turn up with the next migrant wave, unless your fort no longer meets the requirements for that noble. You can, of course, kill the replacement too - with lesser repercussions as he won't have had time to make any friends yet.--[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 06:38, 26 April 2008 (EDT)

::Ok, thanks :) I was afraid that the death of a count could induct a reaction of the mountainhomes or something like that... If the only reaction will be the one of the countess, it will be ok :) [[User:Timst|Timst]] 07:00, 26 April 2008 (EDT)

:::In the future, killing off a noble will have repercussions, however, so don't depend on that behaviour forever. ;-)
:::''Req291, NOBLE DEATH, (Future): Killing off nobles needs to have serious consequences. Once the counties (see Core28) are in, there could be revolts from the village if the count is popular. Other nobles could have angry relatives. Losing your law enforcement nobles could lead to more tantrums and other acts in large fortresses. Nobles should all be upset by the death of the tax collector. When a noble is buried, other dwarves could be sealed in the tomb.''
:::--[[User:JT|JT]] 15:11, 26 April 2008 (EDT)

::::This doesn't sound like it has much effect on a "kill early, kill often" approach — e.g. preparing their death room immediately upon their arrival, and luring them in via a profile-set lever pull job. The count won't be popular (at least in your fort) if nobody knows him, unless he's popular by reputation or something. Angry relatives? If they show up friendly but ready to tantrum, I draft / lure them into killing rooms; if they're hostile, I deal with them like a siege. Nobles all being upset by the tax collector means nothing if I've killed all the nobles. And it's not like I'm going to make tombs for them, either. Only the law enforcement one looks like an issue.

::::On the other hand, maybe that's the point — you're penalised if you just randomly kill nobles because you don't like them, but you're also allowed to run a "screw the nobility, we're a free communal fortress" game (or have a "kill the entire current regime, we want a revolution" event) so long as you actively enforce it. — [[User:Wisq|Wisq]] ([[User talk:Wisq|talk]]) 19:02, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

: Another issue that can pop up is killing your Baron/Count/Duke, their spouse will stick around and remain a noble even after the replacement and their spouse has shown up. On one fortress my count had 3 Countess Consorts, one was his wife and the other 2 were leftovers from the previous 2 counts. One Baron happened to be standing under a drawbridge as it came down (don't ask what a drawbridge was doing in his room, lets just say he wasn't going to get that rock crystal item he wanted) and his widow was promoted to Countess Consort when the new Count showed up to replace him a few seasons later. That Count was tending a farm when a squad of gobs beat the living tar out of him and his widow remained a Countess Consort even after the third noble arrived to replace the dead Count. They all still make demands/mandates and still require rooms/tombs and all that as before. [[User:Lando242|Lando242]] 20:55, 18 January 2009 (EST)

== Selling Nobles ==
<tt>╔═╦═╗</tt> Unlock doors, assign lever to noble, order lever pulled. 
<tt>║ò┼^┼</tt> Wait for noble to stand on cage trap, lock both doors. 
<tt>╚═╩═╝</tt> Wait for noble to fall asleep, sell caged noble to elves. 
:Sorry for the crude drawing. My wiki format skills are weak. [[User:Rkyeun|Rkyeun]] 14:36, 20 September 2008 (EDT)

:Eh... except for the small known bug where trying to haul an occupied cage to the trading depot results in whatever is caged being freed and the empty cage being brought in. But once they fix that bug, maybe. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 16:30, 20 September 2008 (EDT)

::I've been trying to sell my dwarves for ages, as a 'clean' approach to dealing with nobles and unwanted immigration. Sadly, they always seem to die of thirst first. If I let them out just once to drink, they die of hunger. Maybe if I let them out twice... but that's a lot of effort. Better to just let them die, unless they're very popular or something. — [[User:Wisq|Wisq]] ([[User talk:Wisq|talk]]) 19:06, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

:::Selling to the Elves? That's too cruel, even for nobles! Don't you know that the Elves are '''Cannibals!?!''' --[[User:Arkenstone|Arkenstone]] 12:45 17 August 2009 (EST)
::::[ENTITY:FOREST]
:::::[CREATURE:ELF]
:::::[ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_KILL:ACCEPTABLE]

::::::Actually, they're not cannibals. That would state that they would eat each other if they killed each other. This is only that they'll eat the dead that they kill themselves, and as killing each other in their society is not acceptable they won't eat each other, however, if the Sapient_other tag was set to acceptable they might end up eating each other if they die by any means. [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 20:16, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

::::::Well, eating deceased of your own kind is still cannibalism. [[User:Kurokikaze|Kurokikaze]] 11:15, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

== Category? ==

I would do this myself if I knew how, but perhaps someone should make a noble category, with all the noble related articles (Unfortunate accident, mandate, types of nobles, etc) in it. I think it would be useful. [[User:Spoggerific|Spoggerific]] 20:53, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

==Nobles Working==

Actually, nobles not only gather harvest if you put all dwarves harvest on, but they also help demolishing constructed walls.=--[[User:Stinhad Limarezum|Stinhad Limarezum]] 00:53, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

:Thanks, I'll add that to [[labor]].--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 03:16, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

==Arrival Requirements Verified==
Ok, I just had the Baroness, Hammerer, and Tax Collector arrive simultaneously with no other dwarves. I'm playing with a population cap of 50, and births (plus overflow of last immigration wave) has finally taken me up to exactly 80 dwarves. Despite the population cap, the Baroness, Tax Collector, and Hammerer arrived by themselves.

<s>Note that the Baroness Consort has not arrived, presumably because he takes the place of a normal dwarf during the immigration wave and can't be generated in violation of the population cap (whereas the other three can).</s> nevermind, he just showed up.

I should also note that I earlier had the King arrive as a peasant by himself despite being at the population cap. He also brought no consort nor advisor (although I've never had him arrive as a peasant before, so I don't know if that's normal).

I have not seen a philosopher as of yet.

As my fortress wealth is past 8 million at this point, I think its safe to say I can rule that out as a cause (having seen them at much lower wealth in default pop cap games).

--[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 19:30, 7 December 2008 (EST)

:I had the usual five nobles show up once in an immigration wave that took me over 80 dwarves, and promptly killed them, along with most of the immigrants. I subsequently set my population max to 50. My current population (minus nobles) is 69, yet those same nobles continue to show up every few seasons, suggesting that once you become a barony (80 pop, initial baron/ess arrival), they'll continue to show up again, regardless of your current status. — [[User:Wisq|Wisq]] ([[User talk:Wisq|talk]]) 19:10, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

==Noble demands==

I currently have a Baroness demanding "item in Dining Room". Any idea what could satisfy this? I tried a bismuth bronze statue, no luck. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 00:24, 5 January 2009 (EST)

: This is a bug. Check # 000491 @ http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_bugs.html --[[User:Sinergistic|Sinergistic]] 00:47, 5 January 2009 (EST)

==Pretentious Arrangements==

Thoughts about a lesser's pretentious <whatever> arrangements seem to be a common source of noble unhappiness. (this is especially annoying for me as my mayor has an artifact in her bedroom raising it to Royal and my queen has no list of likes and dislikes, so I can't make her happy just by having the right booze) it would be interesting to know what exactly causes the difference between "upset" and "shattered", how to avoid it, and good ways to mitigate it's effects. I might have to do some research on my old fort to check this myself. --[[User:Pyrite|Pyrite]] 13:58, 6 January 2009 (EST)

:Well, I suspect that the difference is related to the difference in room value, although I suppose that's stating the obvious. Another obvious solution would be to move the artefact into the higher-ranked Noble's room, assuming that's possible. Otherwise, I suppose the simplest (if not the easiest) way to mitigate its effects is to add as much value as possible to the Queen's room. As well as furniture, you can get surprising results with smoothings, engravings, and building an expensive floor over the engraved one if you have no qualms about exploiting such strangeness.--[[User:Quil|Quil]] 18:07, 6 January 2009 (EST)
::I can confirm it's the difference between relative worth. I kept getting these annoying messages in my count + consort until I stuffed a platinum statue in their rooms. Obviously, this increased the worth of the room by 12K, easily dominating the 'lesser' quarters.

::It does require that there be a significant difference; having them at roughly equal worth will cause unhappy thoughts, which was my problem in my most recent fortress. I just housed all my nobles in the same residential stack as everyone else, adding extra room additions off the main design for offices, dining rooms, etc. The Count's room was a LITTLE better as his walls happened to be ore-bearing, but it wasn't enough to please him, hence the statue.--[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 10:04, 7 January 2009 (EST)
:::Alright, I've put the artefact cabinet back in my mayor's room, and now will proceed to test this principle by making the Queen's rooms incredibly nice. I'm going to start by replacing all her furniture with gold and platinum, and move up from there.--[[User:Pyrite|Pyrite]] 15:49, 7 January 2009 (EST)
::::You may have a long way to go. Artifact furniture can easily be 50 or 60K, whereas the most expensive single piece of furniture I've ever been able to produce is a masterwork platinum statue, which is 12K. --[[User:ThunderClaw|ThunderClaw]] 16:36, 7 January 2009 (EST)

::::While you can't order artifacts dumped, you can apparently order them forbidden. So maybe you could forbid it and then move the creator's quarters elsewhere, leaving the original one vacant. Or maybe you could make them temporary quarters elsewhere, wait for them to move the artifact, then forbid it and move them back. — [[User:Wisq|Wisq]] ([[User talk:Wisq|talk]]) 19:22, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

== Noble upgrade size. ==

I have a count still event though I have 148 dwarves. Could it be dependant on more than just the 140, or is it different now? [[User:PierreMonteux|PierreMonteux]] 21:55, 11 February 2009 (EST)

: I'm at 188 dwarves still with a count not a duke. Could there be a dependancy on metal jobs? Other than melting down the goblin metal, I don't have any metal jobs going. [[User:PierreMonteux|PierreMonteux]] 10:47, 14 February 2009 (EST)

I just had a peasant give birth to a baby. This put my population at 110, and I immediately got a message that my fortress had been made into a county. So, I will remove the "verify" tags from the count/count consort promotion info.--[[User:Scrotch|Scrotch]] 18:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

::I'm certain that exports are a requirement. Remember that only wealth you have created can count as exports, trading goblin items won't raise the number. If you can't offer it, it doesn't count. I had a fortress with 140+ dwarves that jumped up to a barony from nothing when I started exporting. --[[User:Sensei|Sensei: Last seen somewhere in the Basic Jungle of Terror]] 20:03, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

== Failure to comply ==

I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet, but what happens if you don't give a noble the room he/she requires? I know they get unhappy thoughts, but is that all? Will they punish anyone? Or just start throwing tantrums? Next useless noble I get is sleeping in the barracks. On the floor.
:Unhappy thoughts? I don't think there is any repercusions. --[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 16:26, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
::Unhappy nobles means more mandates, more demands and harsher sentences. --[[User:Sensei|Sensei: Last seen somewhere in the Basic Jungle of Terror]] 20:04, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I just read this and checked my noble's happiness levels and justice levels, and even though they all seem ecstatic lately I have someone who's being jailed for 64 days, which I think is pretty extreme. I have been fulfilling hardly any of their mandates though, so perhaps jail time is related more to mandates than happiness?[[User:Gnavin|Gnavin]] 14:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

== Why Nobles Exist: ==

Nobles exist because Dwarven government is a feudal system; the fortress is just a semi-autonomous local government which must still answer to the King, and here's why:
::Long ago in the Age of Myth, the King's ancestor was legendary +5 in every military skill and took control of everything, killing all who resisted. His descendants are now <s>fat, lazy, whoremongering, good for nothing slobs</s> not as <s>cool</s> personally strong as he was, but they still technically own everything, including "your" fortress. The expedition that went to "colonize the King's land" did so with his permission, <s>usually given while drunk</s>. When your fortress becomes large enough that it can no longer <s>avoid notice</s> govern itself "properly", the King sends one of his <s>drinking mates</s> representatives to <s>screw up</s> "manage" the fortress. The nobles hold the authority of the King, and so there every <s>ridiculous</s> <s>stupid</s> <s>impossible</s> "reasonable" mandate "MUST" be obeyed. --[[User:Arkenstone|Arkenstone]] 12:37 17 August, 2009 (EST)

Koganusan

2009-10-14T11:12:18Z

Kurokikaze: Redirected page to Boatmurdered

#REDIRECT [[Boatmurdered]]

Koganusan

2009-10-14T11:12:04Z

Kurokikaze: Created page with '#REDIRECT Boatmurdered'

#REDIRECT Boatmurdered

Talk:Main Page/archive2

2009-10-08T16:14:05Z

Kurokikaze: /* Incoming New Version */

{{Archive|
# [[Talk:Main Page/archive1|Archive 1]]
}}

== World Painter Page ==
The wiki has needed a page on the [[World Painter]] for a while, so I've started one. The information in there is decent, but I'm relatively new to wiki editing, so the formatting probably isn't. If someone wouldn't mind cleaning it up a bit for me I'd really appreciate it. --[[User:Timmeh|Timmeh]] 01:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

:Well I don't know if someone helped you already, but it looks fine to me. --[[User:frandude|frandude]]

== French language wiki ==

Can we have interlanguage links with the [http://www.dwarffortress.fr/wiki/ French wiki]? -[[User:Alan Trick|Alan Trick]] 17:48, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

== Add a CptnDuck page? ==

Captain Duck is a DF video tutorial maker, which an impressive collection of 40 videos on youtube (and a few extra videos of sieges and arenas and whatnot), and explains how to do most everything, from magma forges to Dwarven justice. He adds humor to it and he's the reason a lot of people understand the game...I think we should give him a page. – [[template:unsigned|unsigned]] comment by [[User:Blackdoggie998|Blackdoggie998]]

:As it is insanely easy for anyone to sign up for editing priviledges on this site (I managed to, after all), I see no need to make one for him when he could make one for himself. However, if you wish to add user:CptnDuck, or invite him to make one himself, feel free. He can link to all of his tutorials from his user page. They even be searchable through that lovely little box to the(my) left. (Who knows where it is on your skin.) -- [[User:Teres_Draconis|jaz]] ... on this day, at this time.

:P.S. Does it seem odd to you to have it say "unsigned comment by [username]"? Or is that just me? -- [[User:Teres_Draconis|jaz]] ... on this day, just a little after the previous one.

:We don't need a userpage for him, but a page with the assembled listing of all his (and others of equal quality) video tutorials wouldn't be a bad idea at all. -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 16:47, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

== Articles on Olivine and other generic stones ==

There is a current discussion as to whether or not [[Olivine]] (and perhaps some few other stones) are duly covered on the current [[stone]] page, or are truly worth having their own article/page. This relates to a larger question of how this wiki is organized, and "What deserves a page" in a general sense. Any interested are encouraged to chime in, if only with a "me too" post pro or con. See [[Talk:Olivine]] for an idea of the issue. I'd like to have the debate move from the specific Olivine page to here since this is a more general issue that affects many potential pages. --[[User:Senso|Senso]] 21:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

:I'm not really sure which way to go on this one. A lot of otherwise useless stones would need their own articles if the guidelines were expanded... and yet, there's a good amount of useful information that's not on the main pages, that would further clutter them if it were added; And permitting more individual pages would solve both those problems. I guess this ends up being a vote both ways, with provisions on each. -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 23:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

:My vote is, if someone can make it amusing, then sure. If someone is of the bent to enjoy making such a page, then again, sure... otherwise, leave it at the bottom of the pile of "things that someday we might get around to if we feel like it" and don't stress. The relevant data is covered (or will be when someone notices it's not), and everything else is gravy. Beside, what would you rather do, play the game, or figure out how to make a whole page of jokes about how gneiss nice is.... (or did I get that backwards?)... ? --[[User:Teres_Draconis|jaz]] ... on this day, at this time.

::All relevant information is covered, yes. But not necessarily on a relevant page. Before the Olivine page was made you couldn't learn that olivine may contain native platinum from any page related to olivine or stone in general.
::Another example is kaolinite. You can look it up in the table of Other Stone to see it can be found in sedimentary rock. But in order to see that it may itself contain alunite and marcasite you have to go through the entire table (or use the browser search function). Now, in order to see if it may contain anything else, you have to notice the note at the top of the page (just above the table of contents) that points to Metal Ore and Gem, whith another two tables you have to search through. (Kaolinite may contain turquoise). --[[User:Nahno|Nahno]] 21:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

:It's not just about "which stones" - it's a larger question of how the wiki is organized and presented. Should each separate and distinct item get its own page, like the current one- or two-line articles on [[vial]]s, [[instrument]]s or [[Restraint|chain]]s, (just as random parallel examples of some [[finished goods]] that have their very own, very short, very dull, and predictably repetitive articles.) Surely the [[Masons guild]] and [[miners guild]] don't deserve or need separate articles. Do we need a separate and largely redundant article for every trap weapon? What about the cookie-cutter articles on ''every'' individual animal? The GCS deserves its own, and many others, but one on each separate type of shark and hunting cat? There is no actual article there, only a template.

:Quivers and bolts are sub-sections of the [[crossbow]] article, and I think that's a ''great'' call. Olivine, talc and kaolinite are merely similar examples, distinct enough to warrant special treatment, but on the borderline of being so small to each only represent a stub. Ultimately, I don't think a functional formal definition would be easily achieved - rather guidelines and a fuzzy target, combining related info into groups with optimal size limitations (both lower end and upper end). Perhaps a template should not be forced on every lesser example, but they could be grouped into a table on their own article, "other stones of note" or "sharks" or "finished goods" or whatever.

:In many ways, our only current guidelines are "what has been done so far" - and that varies widely and wildly. Too often, pages are cobbled onto related ones, or split off just because its a new topic, if a brutally short one. Myself, I'd like to see most related articles of less than 4 lines or so get grouped into larger, more universally informative articles, and anything larger than maybe 5 full sub-sections be considered for splitting up. If an item stands out from the rest, it should stand out somewhere, in an article - but that doesn't mean it has to have its very own, or invite every similar item to do so as well.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 03:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

:: Please check out the (no longer) current [[Chalk]] page and tell me what you think. ... which is to say, it doesn't /have/ to be a stub, does it? It can be rich and detailed and sadly unamusing. It would please me to continue to do all stones in this manner, or another manner of your choosing.... Thus negating fussing over "this one was done this way, that one was done that way" arguments. I'll get to them all, in the order they appear on the [[Stones]] page. ... assuming you guys are ok with that. --[[User:Teres Draconis]] 08:28, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
:: P.S. Who's the outpost manager of this place, anyways? I'd like to know to whom I should be pandering. --jaz

::: I think 1) you should take time to read, if not learn the wiki format guidelines, 2) you should sign with your REAL user name, and stop using a pseudonym, and 3) you should not break someone else's post with yours in between their paragraphs. As to the chalk page, I think it's over-enthusiastic and pays no attention to previous article style or formatting precedent - which may be a good thing or a bad thing, depending. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 09:33, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

:::: 1) You're right, I'm sorry.
::::2) We've discussed user names on [[User_Talk:Teres_Draconis#Naming Conventions|my talks page]]. (Also, <nowiki>~~~</nowiki> still puts "jaz"... why bother with the link when it's just a P.S.?)
::::3) I'm sorry. I was (apparently) trained wrong, and that was a /long/ time ago. I was taught (20 years ago) that when responding, to do so in-line, so that people can tell what the response is actually relating to. (Like an actual conversation, except with a time warp. You say something, I respond, someone else adds, we all move on to the next topic.) It supposedly adds clarity. The style and curtesy rules of such things has changed. I can see I'll need to update myself. Thank you for pointing that out. =)
::::4) I was hasty. I had to have meatspace people explain to me why, as wiki-''writers'', you would not want so much detail on a page. Especially when, with every new game release, any given page on the wiki might need an over haul. I was only looking at it from the end-user perspective of "If I'm looking for information, I don't want a page that just tells me to go look at the three pages I've already looked at. I want a page that reduces the noise of the irrelevant, and distills to just that specific (sub-)topic." I /don't/ see the point of six pages that are identacle except for title, and all only three lines long. If it's got it's own page, it should have it's own page. If it just links back to the three pages that linked to it, and they all link to each other already, what's the point? If the only thing Chalk has going for it is that it's flux, why not just make a note on the [[Stone]] page reading, "These three rocks can be used as flux" and link to the flux page from there? Why should chalk have it's own page, if it's not going to be richly detailed and, you know, informative? - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

::::The templates are there because they are pretty, detailed, and condensed ways to display some key information. Rather than expanding existing information so that it takes up more space, it's more productive to add things that you think are lacking. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 12:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

::: I changed the other [[Stones]] table to allow for interesting minerals that are in other[[Stones]] to be posted.--[[User:Mrdudeguy|Mrdudeguy]] 22:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
:What would actually be helpful is a [[Geology]] primer, indicating how layers and inclusions are placed, where, and what the implications of "You have struck XXX" are. I know, now, that if it's olivine, I have a chance of finding veins of native platinum. One good page explaining what all of the geological processes mean would be a lot more useful then all of the various descriptions of exploratory mining. [[User:Decius|Decius]] 22:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
::That sounds like a great idea.--[[User:Mrdudeguy|Mrdudeguy]] 22:46, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

:::I agree! But I have no idea how to write it. Most of what I know about geology I learned from looking at the raws. Everything else is "OMG, is that a ''rock''?! I've heard of those!" - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

::"More useful" to some, but I agree it would be a great addition. Also, the more I think about it, the more I like what MrDG did with the table in Other Stone - tables could condense any and all small, individual articles into single pages w/ (sortable?) tables where all these various similar objects could be compared/contrasted at a glance. Templates are perfect when there is a lot of various info, but if the different topics (semi-generic stones, animals, finished goods) all differ only in one or two details, and there is just not that many variables to begin with, a Table would be (imo) preferable. ''(And imo that table now covers such stones as Olivine well, to get back to the original example that sparked this discussion.)''

::As an additional example of how current stub-articles could be combined into a simple table, I've made this page - [[Example - some fish]] - which could be a model for such. (A page/table with all the "Sea-creatures" would be more likely approp, but this was faster for now.) It would replace every stub-article on related "generic" items, but any truly noteworthy items would still have their own full articles for expanded information and commentary (here, "carp"). It still has 100% of the prev information, but also allows immediate comparison and contrast, and, if sortable, allows a User to more easily compare relations between similar aspects (like "biome", in this example.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 00:13, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

::: Is it possible to put the expandable version of the raw ("game object data (show)" seen at the bottom of the [[carp]] page) inside the table, instead of the whole thing? Or does the one preclude the other? - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

:::Actually, if someone finds it easy to extract that information from the .RAWs, I would find that an improvement on what [[Creatures]] currently has. [[User:Decius|Decius]] 17:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

::::If someone here knows PHP they may be able to write a new wiki hook that pulls information from raw entries. That would make many things much easier. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 22:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

:::Which information do you want extracted? I can probably do it for you, but you may have heard, I'm in the doghouse for not paying attention to style and formating rules. =/ Show me what there is, and one example of what you want, and I can probably do it for you with a minimum of stupid questions. ... ''Probably.'' - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 18:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

::::@ jaz, Dec - Did either of you look at this sample table? [[Example - some fish]] Does that cover what you were envisioning? It's just a rough idea - but it could work the same way that the table on the [[stone]] page currently does, to cover all the generic, almost-identical objects. Same w/ finished goods, weapon traps, probably many other sim categories of like items.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 22:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
I've read this sort of. My view is, wikis add value to the game far more for noobs than they do to legends who have been around since when the z-axis was just an idea. With this in mind, I reckon if everything with a name in the game had an article that would be *A Good Thing* (tm). Just my own opinion, feel free to disagree. Ideally, articles for things like stones should contain a template constructed from the raws, with prose/dialogue manually added.
Even things like [[screw pump]] could have a template driven section, advising what the components are / who makes it etc. Maybe <nowiki>{{building|Building Name|Component 1:Component 1 name|Component X| component X name|Constructed by|trade}}</nowiki> or similar.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 08:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

:I agree, probably, although that sounds like a lot of work. I think the stone templates and articles could do with a bit of a cleanup and more in-game information. I mostly use the articles to see if there's anything notable about a particular stone and then check out the wikipedia page. Some of the wikipedia links are broken or indirect now because disambiguity pages have been added since. Also, the wikipedia links are right at the bottom of very long boxes listing ores and gems and the like - I suggest adding drop down boxes to the templates that contain all that information but which are minimized by default. Or changing the template so that the wikipedia link wraps around the stone name at the top. --[[User:Harmonica|Harmonica]] 01:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Way late to this party, apologies. Tables are no good (to me) if they aren't sortable. The World Ends With You (a Nintendo DS game) Wikia portal/wiki thing has an ''awesome'' method for adding sortable tables. Some gadget called [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_MediaWiki Semantic MediaWiki] that hooks into the Wiki to automatically pull data out as you request it, then display it in easy-to-read and use sortable tables. The TWEWY Wikia has [http://twewy.wikia.com/wiki/The_World_Ends_With_You:Semantic_MediaWiki a page on it] for their editors, giving a few examples of how powerful it is. Their use of the tool is to easily pull information from a table of 304 items, each containing 30 attributes, to generate lists comparing and compiling various items. Hugely powerful, extremely flexible.

This type of tool would work wonderfully with a PHP RAW parser, or even simple dumps of the RAWs to the Wiki. Think of how easy it would be to update the entire Wiki across the board when new versions come out. New critters? Changes to existing critters? Update the information in one spot and it trickles down through the entire Wiki! That's in addition, of course, to being able to, say, generate tables listing how many bones each creature drops when killed, then sort to see which one drops the most. Pretty sweet stuff.

With some sort of system in place for wading through all the data on the wiki, one wouldn't have to worry about having too much information, right? -- [[User:Blank|Blank]] 04:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Particularly for stone, I think that it would be a good idea to describe each individual stone relative to other, similar stones. Let's use [[sandstone]] as an example. Suppose that I read (either in its own article, or in a table) something along the lines of "Sandstone is a [[sedimentary]] layer. Unlike most sedimentary layers, it may contain [[aquifers]] or veins of [[native copper]]." If I already know what a sedimentary layer is (and how it differs from other types of layers), this information will be much easier to process and much more useful than a full list of everything that appears in sandstone. If I have no idea what a sedimentary layer is, this will tell me that there are several sedimentary layers and that they all have many things in common, which is again more useful than a list of everything that appears in sandstone. --[[User:LaVacaMorada|LaVacaMorada]] 08:56, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
:That's not the way this (any?) wiki is set up. The idea is that a lesser concept (here, "sandstone") need not include redundant info from a larger, parent concept (here, "sedimentary layer"). If you don't know what a sed'y layer is (or an aquifer or a vein or whatever) you click that link. If, then, you don't know what a "layer" is, you click that link. Sounds good at first, but if every lesser article included an explanation, even a quick synopsis, of the info for all relevant articles on broader, umbrella concepts, the articles, and this wiki as a whole, would explode beyond usefulness. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 23:43, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for making my point for me. If you look at the current sandstone article, it lists everything contained in sandstone. Looking at just the ores and non-generic stones, we have: Native copper, Hematite, Limonite, Magnetite, Native platinum, Tetrahedrite, Bituminous coal, Lignite, Bauxite. All of these except for native copper appear in every sedimentary layer. That's not even counting all of the generic stone (especially gypsum with its five other types of generic stone contained in it) and (mostly low-value) gems. 95% of the text in this article is redundant, and could easily be summarized by "This layer is exactly like every other sedimentary layer except for these two differences". --[[User:LaVacaMorada|LaVacaMorada]] 09:06, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
:::Ah - ''that's'' your point. (When you said "describe", I thought you were advocating a narrative commentary on and verbal expansion of the info included in the sidebar.) When I was talking about not having redundant info, I was talking text - which is quite terse in this case, exactly because of the point you make. Those sidebars were designed to encapsulate the key info, an "at a glance" sort of thing, to avoid exactly what you're talking about in narrative form. Are the sidebars redundant? Often, yes. But they are the style this wiki has adopted for ''all'' stone. So you're talking not just about changing sed'y layers, but the style approach to all stone, since they would not then be consistent across the board. (Not how I would have personally designed the layout, but it's there and it works, and well. Any stone, same layout, same info in the same place, bam got it.) And when discussing presentation and usability issues, any article has to be taken both individually and in the context of others "like" it - here, any "stone" article is the same layout, the same info at a glance, which (for now) trumps whatever redundancies exist. Perhaps a quick line such as you're stating would go well, since there is, indeed, very little unique to say about any one sub-type of sedimentary layer, and that is info in and of itself. (Take a look at any [[igneous extrusive]] except obsidian for something similar.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 16:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

== Not a Roguelike ==

Dwarf Fortress only resembles a Roguelike in the sense that everything kills you. ASCII graphics haven't connoted Rogue-resemblance since Diablo came out with modern 3D graphics and was still considered a Roguelike.
[[User:LogicalDash|LogicalDash]] 22:08, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you for Fortress mode, but adventurer mode is rogue like.--[[User:Mjo625|Mjo625]] 22:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

:DF is rogue-like like.[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]][[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 08:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

== Link to Add Quotes ==

To get help on how to add quotes to the main page, consult [[Talk:Main Page/Quote|this]] link.

== Incoming New Version ==

Guys. We might as well prepare for the new version that will be coming by the end of the year (maybe). What will need to change? Weapons and armor, the underground stuff... I don't know all of it. But it's extensive. Get ready.--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 17:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
:Well, we don't know all the details, and names of jobs/items can change before actual release. [[User:Kurokikaze|Kurokikaze]] 16:14, 8 October 2009 (UTC)