Dwarf Fortress Wiki - User contributions [en]

40d:Dwarven physics

2009-11-27T15:22:39Z

Erdtirdmans: /* Box of Everlasting Fire */

{{D for dwarf}}

'''Dwarven physics''' is the study of how matter interacts with other matter within the world of Dwarf Fortress. Scholars of traditional Newtonian physics should note that Dwarven physics may or may not correspond with traditional Physics.

It is also worthy of mention that Dwarven physics is a highly complex subject, and thus only be approached by extremely intelligent, extremely curious, or extremely insane individuals.

==Overview==
Those familiar with traditional physics will recognize the following equation:

'''''E = mc2'''''

This equation, read from left to right, says: "Energy is equal to mass times the speed of light squared."

The following equation is known as the ''Dwarven Equation of Life, the Universe, and Everything'', and is the Dwarven adaption of the above:

'''''E''''' {{Dwarf|#fff|10px}} '''''mc2'''''

From left to right, it says: "Energy may or may not equal mass times the speed of light squared." Needless to say, there is a small amount of ambiguity when dealing with Dwarven physics. 

== The Dwarven method ==
The Dwarven method is a rubric by which experiments in Dwarf Fortress are conducted, but should not be confused with the Scientific method. Although the rigidity of the Dwarven method is disputed, the majority of important Dwarven experiments follow the Method. The Dwarven method consists of the following general guidelines: 

=== Sample size ===
Again, those familiar with traditional science may recognize the phrase, where it normally means, "The more the better." However, in Dwarven experiments, it means, "The '''''bigger''''' the better. For instance, a 500-meter magma fall is preferable to a 50-meter one. Now, if you had ''two'' 500-meter magma falls...

=== Repeatability ===
This is whether or not the experiment can be repeated, and if so, under what conditions. If there are few or no restrictions on repeatability, and your experiment receives the same results every time, it will likely be accepted as Dwarven fact. On the other hand, if said experiment can only be reproduced at infrequent or unpredictable intervals, and you were the only one to witness it, and you forgot to take a screenshot, and the experiment can only take place on your computer, and you mysteriously misplaced the savegame, your experiment will likely be dismissed as pointless drivel.

=== Dwarven factor ===
This factor is the approximate relative value of the prodigiousness of an experiment. Values must be real numbers, more specifically subsets of the Integer family. In layman's terms, the Dwarven factor is how awesome an experiment is. Keep in mind that the D-factor is relative, and thus intended to be compared with other values.

For instance, a cannon that shoots water may have a D-factor value of 100. However, if this cannon was constructed completely out of Adamantine, or if it was modified to shoot Magma instead, the D-factor may increase to several thousand, depending on the amount of magma used.

Note that a graph of the Dwarven factor may, and often will, asymptote. Vertical asymptotes are often seen when the D-factor of one experiment is just greater than that of another experiment.

Let us say that a hypothetical Player A constructed a catapult that hurls legendary Hammerdwarves at invaders, but Player B constructed a nearly identical catapult, except that it throws Zombie carp at invaders. Let us also say that the Zombie carp catapult has an assigned D-factor of 1,500. Both catapults ultimately accomplish the same task, (in this case, the complete annihilation of the invaders) but due to the inherent superiority of Zombie carp to hammerdwarves, (and everything else except Ironblood himself, booze, and magma) the Zombie carp catapult must have a higher D-factor than the other one. In this case, the D-factor graph of Catapult A will likely have an asymptote at 1,500. For those of you who aren't so calculus-savvy, this means that the D-factor of the "A" catapult will be approxamitely equal to 1,499.999999999, but will never reach 1,500.

Lastly, there is a direct correlation between the Dwarven factor and Sample size. Simply put, the bigger, the more Dwarvenly.

== The Dwarven status quo ==
The Dwarven index is strikingly similar to the concept of entropy. Although it involves chaos, the Index is more related with the innate stupidity of dwarves. A rough example of entropy is if a dwarf is given two decisions, and it is completely uncertain which one he will choose. (The concept of entropy relates loosely to the ''Dwarven Equation of Everything''.)

Even though it is similar to the concept of Entropy, the Dwarven index may produce different results, hence the differentiation between the two. The Dwarven index states, in a nutshell, that when a dwarf is faced with a decision he or she will make the ''wrong'' decision approximately 99.7% of the time. This could range from something minor like taking the long route to the kitchen, or to something like building a wall from the wrong side, getting stuck alone with a siege, ''dying a gory death'', and [[fun|sending the entirety of your fort into a massive tantrum spiral as the invaders split their sides laughing]]. While entropy will produce the wrong decision roughly 50% of the time, the Dwarven index will produce the wrong decision 99.7% of the time.

=== Summary of the Dwarven status quo ===
Dwarves are stupid.

== Discrepancies between Dwarven and traditional physics ==
The following items are possible in Dwarf Fortress, but impossible otherwise.

=== Dwarven perpetual motion device ===
As the name implies, this is a device that continuously generates power. Specifically, it generates power by building a [[water wheel]] in a [[waterfall]], then using said waterfall to power a [[screw pump]]. The screw pump is used to pump [[water]] back to its original [[Z-axis|Z-level]] and recycle it through the waterfall. Somehow, the device consistently generates a surplus of rotational energy.

=== Quantum garbage dumps ===
Perhaps the most common Dwarven anomaly, this is simply a 1x1 garbage [[dump]] zone, with massive amounts of items (usually [[stone]]) all contained in a single tile. The practicality is obvious—where else are you going to put all that stone?

=== Matter annihilation ===
Another common method of garbage disposal. Items and [[creature]]s in DF can be "annihilated" by placing them under a [[drawbridge]], and lowering the bridge. This is an example where the ''Dwarven Equation of Everything'' states that energy is ''not'' equal to mass times the speed of light squared. If the opposite was true, players would witness a massive explosion and a corresponding drop in FPS rate whenever an item was annihilated.

====Indestructible Ultra-fearsome-Vehicle====

One special case of the Matter annihilation: annihilating the Matter of a [[wagon]] is simply not possible, which not only could be seen as further argument, that Dwarven physics have no relations between Matter and energy, but also it means that there must be kind of "God-Matter". But the latter is concern of the [[philosopher]] and his Dwarven philosophy.

Others point out that this is simply because wagons are too large to crush - observant individuals have noted that other large creatures such as [[dragon]]s, [[giant]]s, and even [[elephant]]s and [[hippo]]s are similarly immune to the matter-annihilating power of the drawbridge.

=== Matter creation ===
The reverse of matter annihilation is creating something from nothing. Examples include:

:* Obtaining enough [[sand]] from one tile to build a giant fortress out of [[glass]]
:* Obtaining an infinite amount of [[water]] from a single [[aquifer]] wall, isolated from the rest of the aquifer
:* Forging metal [[bars]] into [[blocks]], increasing their mass by 25% in the process
:* [[Melt]]ing 25 individual metal bolts (which consumed 1 bar to make), and retrieving 2.5 metal bars from those.

=== General Relativity ===
It is also important to note that while relativity is indeed a proven phenomenon in Dwarven Physics, the catalyst for time dilation is not the speed an object moves at (as in traditional physics) but instead the population of its region. For decades, Dwarven Scientists have observed that, as local populations increase (dwarf, animal, or [[Waterfall|otherwise]]), the relative passage of time slows. To combat this, mayors have been known to enact ordinances ranging from the [[Maximizing framerate|simple and logical]] to the [[Catsplosion#Thermonuclear_catsplosion|ethically dubious]].

In a recent study by the Center for Dwarven Advancement, it was found that 40% of pioneer dwarves left the Mountainhome due to "framerate issues," with a margin of error of ±Booze.

=== Box of Everlasting Fire ===
Throughout man's history, fire has been used a super-weapon (Greek fire, flamethrowers, napalm). For the dwarves, this has manifested itself most notably with magma, and though fire typically consumes oxygen, [[Bin#Thermonuclear_Reaction|if contained within a magma-safe bin]], combustible materials immersed in magma become an infinitely-fueled source of [[fun]].

=== Super-Deadly Projectiles ===
Adventuring Dwarves have frequently noted that many objects can make quite effective projectile weapons. There have, in fact, been several documented cases of Dwarves pitching handfuls of vomit at elves, with deadly results. This is thought to be another manifestation of the ''Dwarven Equation of Life, the Universe, and Everything.'' In this case, either the (kinetic) energy of the thrown vomit increases without bound, often [[wound|causing the target's torso to explode in gore]]. However, it is also a distinct possibility that the act of throwing the vomit causes a hiccup in the space-time continuum, and actually causes the constant of light-speed to decrease everywhere except for the thrown vomit, essentially causing the covalent carbon bonds in the impact area to time warp and royally screwing over the unfortunate Elf. This curious anomaly has lead to adventurers winging any random crap that they can find in the general direction of their enemies. Some dwarves complain that this is "unethical fighting," but braining an [[Elf]] with a Live beetle is, in most cases, just too tempting to resist.

[[Category:Physics]]
[[Category:Constructions]]

40d:Dwarven physics

2009-11-22T01:54:53Z

Erdtirdmans: /* General Relativity */ corrected some terms for sciencey folks

{{D for dwarf}}

'''Dwarven physics''' is the study of how matter interacts with other matter within the world of Dwarf Fortress. Scholars of traditional Newtonian physics should note that Dwarven physics may or may not correspond with traditional Physics.

It is also worthy of mention that Dwarven physics is a highly complex subject, and thus only be approached by extremely intelligent, extremely curious, or extremely insane individuals.

==Overview==
Those familiar with traditional physics will recognize the following equation:

'''''E = mc2'''''

This equation, read from left to right, says: "Energy is equal to mass times the speed of light squared."

The following equation is known as the ''Dwarven Equation of Life, the Universe, and Everything'', and is the Dwarven adaption of the above:

'''''E''''' {{Dwarf|#fff|10px}} '''''mc2'''''

From left to right, it says: "Energy may or may not equal mass times the speed of light squared." Needless to say, there is a small amount of ambiguity when dealing with Dwarven physics. 

== The Dwarven method ==
The Dwarven method is a rubric by which experiments in Dwarf Fortress are conducted, but should not be confused with the Scientific method. Although the rigidity of the Dwarven method is disputed, the majority of important Dwarven experiments follow the Method. The Dwarven method consists of the following general guidelines: 

=== Sample size ===
Again, those familiar with traditional science may recognize the phrase, where it normally means, "The more the better." However, in Dwarven experiments, it means, "The '''''bigger''''' the better. For instance, a 500-meter magma fall is preferable to a 50-meter one. Now, if you had ''two'' 500-meter magma falls...

=== Repeatability ===
This is whether or not the experiment can be repeated, and if so, under what conditions. If there are few or no restrictions on repeatability, and your experiment receives the same results every time, it will likely be accepted as Dwarven fact. On the other hand, if said experiment can only be reproduced at infrequent or unpredictable intervals, and you were the only one to witness it, and you forgot to take a screenshot, and the experiment can only take place on your computer, and you mysteriously misplaced the savegame, your experiment will likely be dismissed as pointless drivel.

=== Dwarven factor ===
This factor is the approximate relative value of the prodigiousness of an experiment. Values must be real numbers, more specifically subsets of the Integer family. In layman's terms, the Dwarven factor is how awesome an experiment is. Keep in mind that the D-factor is relative, and thus intended to be compared with other values.

For instance, a cannon that shoots water may have a D-factor value of 100. However, if this cannon was constructed completely out of Adamantine, or if it was modified to shoot Magma instead, the D-factor may increase to several thousand, depending on the amount of magma used.

Note that a graph of the Dwarven factor may, and often will, asymptote. Vertical asymptotes are often seen when the D-factor of one experiment is just greater than that of another experiment.

Let us say that a hypothetical Player A constructed a catapult that hurls legendary Hammerdwarves at invaders, but Player B constructed a nearly identical catapult, except that it throws Zombie carp at invaders. Let us also say that the Zombie carp catapult has an assigned D-factor of 1,500. Both catapults ultimately accomplish the same task, (in this case, the complete annihilation of the invaders) but due to the inherent superiority of Zombie carp to hammerdwarves, (and everything else except Ironblood himself, booze, and magma) the Zombie carp catapult must have a higher D-factor than the other one. In this case, the D-factor graph of Catapult A will likely have an asymptote at 1,500. For those of you who aren't so calculus-savvy, this means that the D-factor of the "A" catapult will be approxamitely equal to 1,499.999999999, but will never reach 1,500.

Lastly, there is a direct correlation between the Dwarven factor and Sample size. Simply put, the bigger, the more Dwarvenly.

== The Dwarven status quo ==
The Dwarven index is strikingly similar to the concept of entropy. Although it involves chaos, the Index is more related with the innate stupidity of dwarves. A rough example of entropy is if a dwarf is given two decisions, and it is completely uncertain which one he will choose. (The concept of entropy relates loosely to the ''Dwarven Equation of Everything''.)

Even though it is similar to the concept of Entropy, the Dwarven index may produce different results, hence the differentiation between the two. The Dwarven index states, in a nutshell, that when a dwarf is faced with a decision he or she will make the ''wrong'' decision approximately 99.7% of the time. This could range from something minor like taking the long route to the kitchen, or to something like building a wall from the wrong side, getting stuck alone with a siege, ''dying a gory death'', and [[fun|sending the entirety of your fort into a massive tantrum spiral as the invaders split their sides laughing]]. While entropy will produce the wrong decision roughly 50% of the time, the Dwarven index will produce the wrong decision 99.7% of the time.

=== Summary of the Dwarven status quo ===
Dwarves are stupid.

== Discrepancies between Dwarven and traditional physics ==
The following items are possible in Dwarf Fortress, but impossible otherwise.

=== Dwarven perpetual motion device ===
As the name implies, this is a device that continuously generates power. Specifically, it generates power by building a [[water wheel]] in a [[waterfall]], then using said waterfall to power a [[screw pump]]. The screw pump is used to pump [[water]] back to its original [[Z-axis|Z-level]] and recycle it through the waterfall. Somehow, the device consistently generates a surplus of rotational energy.

=== Quantum garbage dumps ===
Perhaps the most common Dwarven anomaly, this is simply a 1x1 garbage [[dump]] zone, with massive amounts of items (usually [[stone]]) all contained in a single tile. The practicality is obvious—where else are you going to put all that stone?

=== Matter annihilation ===
Another common method of garbage disposal. Items and [[creature]]s in DF can be "annihilated" by placing them under a [[drawbridge]], and lowering the bridge. This is an example where the ''Dwarven Equation of Everything'' states that energy is ''not'' equal to mass times the speed of light squared. If the opposite was true, players would witness a massive explosion and a corresponding drop in FPS rate whenever an item was annihilated.

==== [[wagon|Indestructible Ultra-fearsome-Vehicle]] ====

One special case of the Matter annihilation: annihilating the Matter of a [[wagon]] is simply not possible, which not only could be seen as further argument, that Dwarven physics have no relations between Matter and energy, but also it means that there must be kind of "God-Matter". But the latter is concern of the [[philosopher]] and his Dwarven philosophy.

Others point out that this is simply because wagons are too large to crush - observant individuals have noted that other large creatures such as [[dragon]]s, [[giant]]s, and even [[elephant]]s and [[hippo]]s are similarly immune to the matter-annihilating power of the drawbridge.

=== Matter creation ===
The reverse of matter annihilation is creating something from nothing. Examples include:

:* Obtaining enough [[sand]] from one tile to build a giant fortress out of [[glass]]
:* Obtaining an infinite amount of [[water]] from a single [[aquifer]] wall, isolated from the rest of the aquifer
:* Forging metal [[bars]] into [[blocks]], increasing their mass by 25% in the process
:* [[Melt]]ing 25 individual metal bolts (which consumed 1 bar to make), and retrieving 2.5 metal bars from those.

=== General Relativity ===
It is also important to note that while relativity is indeed a proven phenomenon in Dwarven Physics, the catalyst for time dilation is not the speed an object moves at (as in traditional physics) but instead the population of its region. For decades, Dwarven Scientists have observed that, as local populations increase (dwarf, animal, or [[Waterfall|otherwise]]), the relative passage of time slows. To combat this, mayors have been known to enact ordinances ranging from the [[Maximizing framerate|simple and logical]] to the [[Catsplosion#Thermonuclear_catsplosion|ethically dubious]].

In a recent study by the Center for Dwarven Advancement, it was found that 40% of pioneer dwarves left the Mountainhome due to "framerate issues," with a margin of error of ±Booze.

=== Box of Everlasting Fire ===
Throughout man's history, fire has been used a super-weapon (Greek fire, flamethrowers, napalm). For the dwarves, this has manifested itself most notably with magma, and though fire typically consumes oxygen, [[Bin#Thermonuclear_Reaction|if contained within a magma-safe bin]], combustible materials immersed in magma become a source of much [[fun]].

=== Super-Deadly Projectiles ===
Adventuring Dwarves have frequently noted that many objects can make quite effective projectile weapons. There have, in fact, been several documented cases of Dwarves pitching handfuls of vomit at elves, with deadly results. This is thought to be another manifestation of the ''Dwarven Equation of Life, the Universe, and Everything.'' In this case, either the (kinetic) energy of the thrown vomit increases without bound, often [[wound|causing the target's torso to explode in gore]]. However, it is also a distinct possibility that the act of throwing the vomit causes a hiccup in the space-time continuum, and actually causes the constant of light-speed to decrease everywhere except for the thrown vomit, essentially causing the covalent carbon bonds in the impact area to time warp and royally screwing over the unfortunate Elf. This curious anomaly has lead to adventurers winging any random crap that they can find in the general direction of their enemies. Some dwarves complain that this is "unethical fighting," but braining an [[Elf]] with a Live beetle is, in most cases, just too tempting to resist.

[[Category:Physics]]
[[Category:Constructions]]

40d Talk:Dwarven physics

2009-11-09T15:45:40Z

Erdtirdmans: commenting on FUNNY LINE???

win [[User:3lB33|3lB33]] 00:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:Seconded. Especially the GR entry. Epic win. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 11:53, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
::Oh hey, thanks! I wasn't sure anyone would see it! :) [[User:Erdtirdmans|Erd T. Mans]] 18:55, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

=="FUNNY LINE"???==
"This study has since been accepted by many great Dwarven thinkers, most notably the renowned Urist McPhilosopher."

Why was this supposed to be funny again? It doesn't add anything, and detracts from the actually funny before it. I don't see the humor in going out of the way to mention Urist McX for some sort of appropriate X. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 03:18, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

:He's this uber-famous dwarf, but he has a completely generic name. It seemed funny at the time, but it might have just been Sleepless Night Syndrome. If no one else thinks it's funny I guess it just shouldn't be in there. [[User:Lord Dakoth|Lord Dakoth]] 07:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
::Editing "humour", both in to or out of an article, is ''extremely'' subjective. I got a chuckle out of it - I always like a well timed Urist joke as much as the next guy. In the end, look at the context - "dwarven physics" is not the most technical or serious article here, but you don't want it to turn in to a stand-up routine (unless that's the point). Otoh, not every wiki editor should pull out everything they don't think is "funny" and only allow their own sense of humour in, or this wiki would grow exceedingly dull.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 07:54, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

::Given the nature of the article, I was mostly concerned about the integrity of the piece (humor and all) that actually related to dwarven physics. It wasn't just that it wasn't funny, it also felt really out of place, tacked on to the end of a section that otherwise read really well. --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 11:11, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

:It wasn't a bad joke, it just seemed to break the closure of that line. Urist McPhilosopher surely has a place in this article somewhere! [[User:Erdtirdmans|Erd T. Mans]] 15:45, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Albedo

2009-11-09T15:31:39Z

Erdtirdmans: economic stone: bauxite?

== Aluminum in copper ==

I have definitely seen aluminum inside a copper vein. It was freakin amazing. Also found 3 magnetite flippin huge clusters, each as big as my fort, 3 lignite veins, 2 microcline (bleagh) big groups, gold and silver vein, 1 hematite vein. It was great. More iron than I know what to do with. But totally aluminum in copper. --[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 12:26, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

== Stone articles ==

The articles on the various types of [[stone]] are based entirely on data taken from the game raws. It's possible the raw data has changed since the article was written, but observation alone is not good enough when we have that kind of inside info. If you see some sort of weird anomaly (like veins of aluminum), then Toady would most likely appreciate a bug report about that. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 06:28, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
:not veins of aluminum. Aluminum adjacent to veins. I have seen it in hematite, and copper. --[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 00:05, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

::Could someone point me to where the discussions are on how the articles should be set up? Sorry. I just... I'm being impulsive and driven and stuff and I want to know so I can /do/ stuff, and... you know, stuff. With stuff in it. I'm clearer after sleep, I promise. (Don't believe me, I'm always ambiguous, though rarely by intent.) --[[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 08:11, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
::NM. Found it. Duh... Trust me, sleep ''is'' my friend. - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]]

== (response) ==

But ''is'' it an anomaly? I'm not sure how to read the RAW's at that level. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 07:16, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

::Both are IGNEOUS_EXTRUSIVE, so, depending upon how the raws are acted upon, there are several ways this could happen...
:::1) The layer tiles are replaced first with veins(copper), and then small clusters (aluminum). Veins sometimes leave pockets of the layer stone incased, when the vein splits and then reconnects. I've seen it a few times, but I wouldn't call it common. The small cluster that would have been aluminum if the copper weren't there covers part or all of the area within the pocket. The rest of area of the small cluster is ignored, since the aluminum raws do not mention copper. (The way platinum mentions magnetite, for example).
:::2) The layer tiles are replaced first with the small clusters (aluminum) and then the veins (copper)... the copper vein just happens to meander around the pre-existing aluminum.
:::3) It does several iterations of whatever order it does, making both options 1 and 2 possible, potentially simultaniously (though not in the same tile, obviously).
:::4) Something completely different I have no clue about. I could make some stabs at things that could have caused that result, but they would all be both difficult and clunky, both in the design and in the implimentation.
:::5) It glitched. It's a computer. It happens all the time.
::Was that ''completely'' useless, or just mostly so? - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 20:23, 22 May 2009 (UTC) (Poking around at modding is helping me learn to read RAW)

==Trader==

If the Appraiser skill is the highest skill you have, isn't the profession "trader"? I know I've seen the trader profession before. Below is what I think the skill/professions are.

Appraiser -> Trader 
Building designer -> Architect 
Organizer -> Administrator 
Record keeper ->Clerk 

I ''think'' that you are correct in that the overall skill (when you have two or more skills close in skill level) is also adminstrator. --[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 20:59, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Just read your log - I notice you build walls around the pipe. Have you considered a channel around the pit? Same effect, but you don't have to carry stone.--[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 21:17, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

:Fixed Trader - my bad. Read the Skill discussion page - that group of skills is not at all clear.

:I don't intend to go near the imps - the wall will create an AG enclosure above my dining hall/kitchen area, for AG crops, statue garden, private water and fishing area, etc etc. (More extensive answers in Kwieland's talk page) --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 01:15, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

== fuel ==
While it is true that I moved the page to "Refined coal", the page I moved it from was "Refined Coal". The naming convention you were asking about is to only capitalize the first letter, since wiki links are case sensitive on all letters except the first. I think the original name of the article was "Refined Coal".

As for the origin of the term, it appears in the cancellation message if you assign a fuel-requiring task when you have no fuel. If this message no longer shows up, I have no qualms about retiring the term. However, if it still does then "refined coal" is a more suitable name than "fuel" since only "refined coal" appears in-game. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 06:45, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

:I agree that the confusion needs to be cleared up, but I don't think separating [[fuel]] and [[refined coal]] into separate articles will help since they are just words for the same thing. I think that the best solution would be a short disambiguation at the top of the [[refined coal]] page. As long as all the terms redirect to that page anyone interested in any of them will end up seeing it. As for the title, we should definitely prefer an in-game term over a forum-supplied term. Everyone who uses the wiki plays the game, but not everyone uses the forum.

:The article as-is contains all the information pertaining to the naming issue, but if you think it's confusing, the page organization may be to blame. Perhaps information pertaining to names and categories could be consolidated at the top. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 15:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

::There is no such thing as "fuel coal". The terms are "refined coal" and "coal fuel". [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 13:27, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

:::I know, I know! And I find I can't shake that term! (esp when tired). Not sure where used it this time, but it's like Pres. Bush saying "nucular arsenal". Arrrggghhhh!!!! --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 22:52, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

== Olivine ==

See [[Talk:Olivine]] [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 07:12, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

==That revealed vein comment of Zchris13==
I totally understand why you undid that, but it was sort of funny. And I can accomplish that without using a third party utility. I can create down stairs on the level above, which reveals the tile. --[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 23:57, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

== armorsmith page - re quality of artifact armor ==

In my head, I thought artifact armour & weapons were better than masterwork too, but that's not what the [[Item quality]] page says:

:☼Item Name☼ Masterful ×12 ×2.0
:Unique name Artifact ×120 ×2.0

And we should assume that's accurate, neh?--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 23:39, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

:nobody knows. It is a mystery!!!! Ohhhh... I really don't know what to believe. Toady has dropped contradicting hints, people report contradicting data, and nobody really knows what is going on. I say we just put a maybe in there. --[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 02:00, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

== Sorting table on [[Metal]] page by color ==

The issue is that the only plaintext in the color column is "*", which is hard to sort by. If we want it to be sortable we need the plaintext of each entry to not be identical. A pretty way to pull this off isn't coming to mind, but that's the goal. Nice work on the table, by the way. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 13:22, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

:Maybe the first letter of the color name, in the same color as the background. --[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 17:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

::Or change the tile entirely - the more I look at it, not sure what the whole "background color" achieves. But as I understand it the use of the icon (the asterisk) representing the ore is the problem. May take some rethinking.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 22:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

:Every metal has a unique foreground color and a unique background color. On items like doors, you get to see both. This is actually why doors are included in the corners of the diagram on the assorted metal pages (eg: [[copper]]) [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 23:17, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
::: <Nods> Got it. Is there a way to "pipe" the icon in, and use some numerical representation to sort? Meh, you've probably thought of that. Or piping the icon in??? Or using a subtly diff icon? Sorting by color is, admittedly, perhaps the least of our concerns with that table. Maybe remove the "sortable" part from the template for now?--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 23:24, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
:What is it we are sorting here? --[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 23:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
:: Metal page table (fixed in sub-title above)
HA! fixed. me r hte supra jeeeenius! Completely by accident, natch. Tried adding numbers in w/ the asterisks, to give the system something to sort. That worked w/ only 2 numbers, they ''all'' sorted. So I backed out, and tried same w/ small numbers for a better look. Then w/ only 1 small "A" for adamantine, no numbers - that worked too! Then, just for the helluvit, I tried making one asterisk small - and that worked too, w/ no visible difference in text. All it needed was one difference, and they all get sorted, np. woot and a half.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 01:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
:lol. Did you try it with no change at all? I bet that would have sorted, too. Why? Because the edit right before yours was a fix :P [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 05:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
::... buzzkill! LOL! didn't even see an edit before mine. suuuuupra jeeeeenius!--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 08:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

== User name vs preferred name/nickname ==

Albedo, I don't know why you think that it's unacceptable for someone to use a different name to sign their posts. 
There's a built-in function for doing exactly that (once you figure out how to use it) in your preferences. 
Additionally, while this isn't Wikipedia, you still shouldn't bite the newbies. -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 21:13, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
:I guess because I'm used to going to "User:Name" to find their page, and that doesn't work - why take one username when you intend to use an entirely diff nickname? And I felt I was more muzzling than biting - over-enthusiasm is laudable, and ignorance is something that everyone has, but a bad combination together in public.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 21:59, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

::Personally, I joined with my usual semi-anonymous handle, as I wasn't sure I'd stick around, or that the wiki was going to be worth working on. Later decided that I was going to try to be a significant part of the community, and set my nickname/signature to my Real first name. That's probably something similar to most people who use non-User name signatures. It's also possible that what name people would normally choose won't work for signing up. ''In the end, clicking the signature of a user will take you there, regardless of what they put in it or why they don't use their user name.'' -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 23:41, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
:::Do tell. And you do this "clicking" thing with that computer mouse thing???... Stating the obvious is... well, exactly what it is. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 23:48, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

::::lol... ok, you want blunt? Don't tell other people to do something a certain way that you prefer, simply because you don't want to use the system already in place. -[[User:N9103|Edward]]

:::No, altho' blunt serves it's purpose. However now you're simply repeating what you've already said, which again serves none. But it seems I must follow suit - if I want to go to your page but don't have your sig in front of me, I would normally type "User:Edward" in the search box and hit "go" - that doesn't work. Hence, problematic, and NO direct system is in place. Solution? Either Search, or create a redirect for you. And your personal shift in names is not what TD did - which I thought would also be obvious. Your concern is admirable - I think you are/were confused as to my exact position, which is "Why adopt a psuedonym ''the same day'' you create the User Account?".--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 00:23, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

:::::It annoys me too, Albedo. But I really just think we should let it lie. Can't really hurt anything, can it? Other than our brains, but whatever.--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 00:16, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
::::::<nods> --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 00:23, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

:::... I didn't mean to get you all riled up. And thank you, [[User:N9103|Edward]], for asking him not to bite me, but I /did/ rather earn it... at least the ignorant + over-enthusiastic part. (I'm not saying I'm cured, yet, either.) Also, with warnings all over the place, if I can't handle a little criticism, I should just go home and cry, and not come back until I'm all grown up. Boo hoo. Ok, I'm done now.
::: Again, as to the me not signing with a link, it was a P.S. There was a (hand typed, oif) link directly above. Also, I was /really/ new and /really/ ignorant. I'm still fairly new (I've still got the "how to use the tildies to sign your name" guide at the top of my talks page so I don't forget), and I'll always be ignorant, but I'm fairly decent at figuring things out once five or six people have yelled at me about the same thing. Thanks, btw. I did need that. - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 20:12, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
::::I might recommend putting in a new-user default page that explains basic behind-the-wiki language, except for 2 things. A) It would not have helped me keep out of trouble, since I initially signed up due to poor impulse control and I /had/ to respond to... I don't even know what, anymore. And B) most (but not all) is fairly easy to pick up on the fly if you (bother to) look at how it was done by the other six people who responded before you... which is why I was typing my link out by hand at first... and some of them said "Teres Draconis" instead of "jaz" because I didn't understand the syntax ''at all''. When I say "I don't speak geek," I'm not joking. But I think I'm learning to read this dialect fairly well. - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]]
:::::The WTML is fairly easy to understand, much easier than HTML. There is a very helpful help section at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Contents/Editing_Wikipedia The Big Wiki]. Note that their rules are different from ours, you don't need to follow their style guidelines.--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 17:17, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

== Non-Dwarves guide to stone comment==
I guess you removed my comment on alunite to avoid confusion with the value stuff? I've had places where you can't go more than 20 tiles or so without "You have struck Alunite!".--[[User:Smjjames|Smjjames]] 12:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
:(response) Np then as it's understandable to avoid confusion.

== [[Armor sets]] ==

You seem to be interested in changing these. How do you like what I did?--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 01:44, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] seems not to like it so much. hmm...--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 03:48, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

== glass = wood ==

[[elf|Elves]] dislike green glass as well? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 00:16, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

:Good point - now that you mention it, dunno. (I didn't make the original post, just expanded to explain the connection). I've got a Spring trading session coming up, and green/clear glass - I can triple check. Or, if you know the answer, of course feel free to edit the edit, np by me.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 01:02, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

::I have no clue on this one :P [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 06:03, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

:::Did you use charcoal as fuel when making the glass? (charcoal = dead tree) I've found that on the few fortresses I've had with /no/ source of coke, elves got /very/ picky about what they'd buy. If you used charcoal to smelt the ores, using coke to make finished products may "correct" this problem, but it's rather hard to tell, now. Of course, that doesn't help with glass, does it? That's a single fuel product. - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 09:40, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

== quotes ==

You know, if you change a quote then it's not a quote any more. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 23:34, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

:Also, fyi, quote page policy is that re-adding removed quotes requites a talk page discussion. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 23:36, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

::You're right, but considering your given reasons for that mass deletion, I didn't bother with a vote for each one, I just reduced their size and replaced. Not all of them - a couple I didn't feel should have been there to begin with, length or no.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 01:02, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

:You didn't respond to the first issue, which is the bigger one imo. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 05:55, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

::You can't change what someone else said just because they didnt say it the way you wanted them to. If the spelling bothers you so much, then feel free to tag it with [sic], but if you change the content at all then it's not a quote any more. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 07:49, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

:::Sorry, but that is, in my personal opinion, absolutely absurd. But fine - you asked for it.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 11:48, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

::Arbitrary quote removal is completely supported by the current quote guidelines. You can find them on [[talk:Main Page/Quote]]. These are not guidelines that I made up on the spot or forced on anyone. They have been around for a while. This is not cause for ad-hominem attacks (actually, I can't think of any situation that ''is'') [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 16:13, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

== Various disagreements ==

I just wanted to say that even though you and me are disagreeing quite a bit lately, I usually agree with most of your decisions. I think you're a good, rational editor. So please don't take things personally when an argument comes up. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 16:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
:Good rational editor. Yup.--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 22:00, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
::And it all seems so polite. It's nice when people can disagree with courtesy and style. - [[User:Teres Draconis|jaz]] 09:42, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

== Defense Guide ==

Hi, I'm a lurker, and know squat about wiki editing. However, there is something that should go into one of the new pages - but I'm not sure which. Mechanics (and others) have a nasty habit of wanting to clean, or reload traps during conflict. Forbidding traps after they are built will keep, for example, DOdok McGoblinBait from deciding to reload a stone trap in the middle of a siege. I got this info from [[User:0x517A5D]]'s Siege Checklist, which has some other defense info as well. FWIW, I think you're doing a great job with this. --[[User:Bob|Bob]] 01:29, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

== <nowiki>[[link]]s vs [[links]]</nowiki> ==

You know why redirects were invented right?

So editors like me can be lazy. (Alternatively you could hunt up all the plural redirects and nuke all of them, there are plenty.)

Having said that, I made the change because I find <nowiki>[[masons]] easier on the eye in the edit window than [[mason]]s</nowiki>, but it's an "individual preference" I guess.

By the way: rhetorical questions in edit comments make you look like a smart arse, just like my first line makes me look like one. There is no "tone of voice" in an edit comment.
[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 06:34, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

:G'morning! You're right. I was tired, and hadn't remembered you were an old hand at this. My comments were meant to be helpful, not condescending, but I can see how it could be read either way. So many editors dive in without realizing what's going on, and since it's invisible in the final product... Meh, in the end, masons, masunz - whatever works. I guess for me, it's all about the "root word stem", but as you say, that's just preference. For what it's worth, I agree with 99% of your edits that I've seen, and the other 1% are a coin toss by me. I guess this is one coin toss I kneejerked on.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 13:55, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
::No harm, no foul... you say g'morning, I say g'night! All I know is I just survived an ambush for the first time without saying f#@k this and abandoning. Pop went from 65 to 50 though... :( (my recruits v their Master bowmen) Thank you surpentine passageway and stone-fall traps! Now what do I do with a half-dozen gobs? [[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 14:34, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

== Screenshot Tilessets ==

I'm sure you're aware of {{Rule|I}}. 
Mentioning it due to the SS's you put up on the Vein (and other) page(s). -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 00:28, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
:??? - I am aware of it, and I use the vanilla DF tileset - why do you mention it?--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 01:15, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

::Ah, I see the issue, you're using the default graphical set. Hmm.. the rule is kinda ambiguous there. I just picked up on it from seeing the bearded dwarf, since I always stick to the pure ASCII, as does most of the wiki. Perhaps this means that a call for clarification should be made on Rule I? -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 03:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Exactly, the "default graphical set" - and rule I says "''Images and screenshots should use the default tilesets for clarity''" - not sure what else it is that you were expecting, nor what "clarification" there needs to be made - default is defaul, neh? The recent tiles I posted in mega projects ([[tower]]) were straight off this site - here [[Character table]]. Can you point to an example of what you were expecting? --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 05:08, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

::::The graphical set and character set use somewhat different images for most of the tiles. Certain characters like the dwarves, and dwarfbuck, have noticeable differences between the graphical and character sets. It's no big deal really, but it seems inconsistent to have some SS's with the graphical set and SS's and diagrams with the character set. (Not that it's your fault either, mind you. I agree that the rule was followed, but as I said, I think the rule might need to be changed.) -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 21:21, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::Ah, I see - I remember that I tried using the default "tiles", but my PC balked at the very idea. It seems there are about 3 different "defaults" lying around - those two plus this wiki's ascii table - hrmmm. While standardization is good, I'm not sure how we can expect a "vanilla user" to conform to both sets. (How diff is it?) --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 22:38, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

::::::Not sure how I could quantify the differences any further than I have already. You could look for yourself at the curses and graphical files in your directory for further comparison. The differences aren't really that big, and I agree that the average editor probably wouldn't know the difference, but then, you're no average editor, are you? ;) I guess the most I'm realistically hoping for is that a handful of editors that are looking for something to do (perhaps Jaz would be a good recruit for this?) would re-capture the images that don't use whichever set is agreed upon to be the standard. I dunno, don't really have any ideas for this, outside of the idea that we need ideas :p -[[User:N9103|Edward]] 21:44, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

== ??? ==

If you know what's going on, then I must be missing something. I don't get the point of what you did at all. How is <nowiki>[[rope]] different from [[restraint|rope]]</nowiki>? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:49, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

== re: End of statement ==

See [[talk:soap]]. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]]

== Masonry ==

I see in several articles you've mentioned that a building requires the masonry labor to construct. For a few of these, I'm suspicious because of how it is with screw pumps. There it depends on the building material, just as with walls and bridges. Rock, glass, and soap building materials will require masonry. Wood will require carpentry, and metal will require metalsmithing. I have only had this come up with bridges, screw pumps, and walls, but I expect this will hold in general. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 03:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
:Now that you mention it, you're right - I make those with stone blocks exclusively, and wanted to emphasize the 2-stage construction - just spaced on other labors for other materials. I'll track down what I can.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 05:52, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

== version tags ==

You can use <nowiki>{{subst:current}}</nowiki> to create a version tag on a page for the current version. When you use template:version in other cases, please try to use an actual version number (eg: 0.28.181.40d) since otherwise it will get stuck into [[:category:unknown version]] rather than the appropriate [[:category:version|version]] category. This will matter when game updates make us pick over the old stuff. Also, the game mechanics of 40d# versions are identical to 40d since the only changes are Baughn's OpenGL fixes. For this reason, it's safe to bundle those under 40d's umbrella. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 02:24, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

== RE: Garnierite ==

I'm an absolute twit; It *was* in gabbro, i forgot that gabbro looks exactly like obsidian. *doh*. [[User:Riffraffselbow|Riffraffselbow]] 01:24, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

== Burrows ==

Toady did put in burrows, but the version Toady is working on is different from Baughn's OpenGL project. The d# releases are made by Baughn. When we have another version from Toady (with different game code) it will have a different [[version]] number. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 18:31, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The "open gaming" was an just incredibly weird thing to see in the article. An "open gaming" update doesn't even parse right. It wasn't an intended as an insult; rather an exclamation at the strangeness of the thing. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and the other arrangement wasn't consistent with the formatting of the article. I didn't think altering it would be a problem since the same information is available a paragraph away. It's aesthetic nitpicking. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:28, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

== 2 minutes ==

That would mean your framerate would not be 100 FPS. [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 10:00, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
:More confidence? It's obvious. That's *all* that needed said. And frankly, I don't care whether people with faster computers see the game as more of a game or not. All I was doing was explaining *why* it takes you 2 minutes as opposed to 2 seconds for you (which was already explained *in* the article after my revision. [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 10:39, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
::Except that you'd be deleting a talk discussion between multiple people. Even just deleting your parts would ruin the discussion, and whether or not it was or wasn't valid at this time doesn't mean it couldn't be a valid discussion for people later on, maybe someone using the Dig Deeper mod will have the same question and won't be certain if it's the mod or by default, then by seeing the talk there they'll see that it's the mod that does it. Or someone could have the same weird problem as you and might be able to give better explanation for why. [[User:Shardok|Shardok]] 19:27, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

== actually ==
would be nobles'. :) But this wording is better anyway. --[[User:Koltom|Koltom]] 23:51, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Quietust explained the purpose of the restricted areas in the article. They are purely to demonstrate that the dwarves had no route except that one. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 23:59, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

== RE: Ice Wolf ==

:''(you can "verify" yourself by looking at the file. 100% the same as "wolf" except biome and activity cycle)''

My "{{verify}}" was aimed toward the statement of them being "unnatural" creatures, not identical to regular wolves. Sorry for the confusion, though. --[[User:Bronzebeard|Bronzebeard]] 20:23, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

== Contact Info ==

Yes, I will make my email address available as soon as I get a few more things worked out with the server. [[User:Briess|Briess]] 18:54, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

== IP Numbers / Sig ==

Is it possible you were logged out at the time? I enabled anonymous edits for at least a trial period earlier today. If that's not it, let me know and I'll dig deeper.--[[User:Briess|Briess]] 06:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
:Wikipedia.com does not have any edit restriction time; instead, they have a brief period of time before a user is auto-confirmed. IP issues may seem odd, but a user is not going to have his IP address dynamically reallocated while using the wiki (as that would cause an internet disconnection at the minimum), responding on the talk page is the same for as a user, and restricting edits based on an arbitrary account scheme is not exactly something that is welcoming. Instead, (and this is from my experience on wikipedia); you'll find that many times the users that continue on and perform substantial positive edits start out as an ip, and eventually register a username; also, the way the current captcha is set up encourages registration (skip the annoying captcha instead of filling one out every single edit, yay!). I understand where your concerns are coming from, but some people like to be anonymous contributors. We shouldn't begrudge them that; and if ip vandalism ever becomes an issue, it's trivial for an sysop to block an IP, range of IPs, or I can very quickly disable edits from unregistered users. At the very least, I want to see what kind of anonymous contributions we will get here for about a month before I go and disable anonymous edits again. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 06:40, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
::Yeesh, you just want to make me work, huh? announcements all over the place! Yeah, I'll point out the stuff somewhere, but preferably when I'm less sleepy and slightly more awake. :) Also, my brain is not sufficiently on right now to answer your question in any fashion that would make sense, so I'll do that once I've had my caffeine for the day.--[[User:Briess|Briess]] 09:22, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

== Eagles ==

"[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Eagle In the real world], Giant Eagles are flying supermarkets that are nearly as strong as elephants." I laughed for a good couple of minutes.--[[User:Briess|Briess]] 21:57, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
:Er, oops, meant to see if you thought perhaps we should change it :V --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 22:02, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

== Pages for Deletion ==

I went through the pages for deletion category, and the majority of them I instead redirected to the appropriate article, or rolled back to a version with a redirect to an article. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 17:09, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

:I prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to deleting pages - although administrators (sysops) can review the full revision history of a deleted page, it becomes inaccessible to any others who would attempt to access those resources. Also, the search engine capability is notoriously weak on the mediawiki engine; until such a time that either this wiki is upgraded to a version with improved spelling detection and / or the search system is replaced, I would prefer to err on allowing the redirect of spelling errors to the intended page; the redirect pages consume very few resources server-wise (1 redirect action is completely followed to the target page in as few as 180 lines of code, versus displaying a page which is a cost hit of 10s of thousands of processing events). I can completely understand your concern on keeping the site 'clean,' but until we have a feature for the wiki (and this is something I'm working on!) allowing for tagged 'stable' or 'excellent' revisions, I highly doubt any measure of cleanliness truly matters to anyone except for us wiki-connoisseurs. Also, if the inclusion of such a spelling travesty as "bizmuth bronze" allows some poor, um -- well, moron to access the material they needed, perhaps we can consider that a success?

:Also, I don't want to claim here that any such policy is set in stone; instead, it's just something I felt would be an appropriate reaction. If you disagree, I propose we >>EDIT WAR!!!<< over these pages. Er, I really meant if you still disagree, I'm more than willing to continue discussing what the appropriate course of action should be over any editorial policies we may have on this wiki. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 23:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

:: Is that a threat or a promise? ;) --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 00:51, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

== Graphics gone missing ==

I thought I had recovered all the missing graphics, but I guess I was wrong. Let me know if another rears its ugly [404] head. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 16:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

== Exploratory mining ==

I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by labor vs. net effect. Ordinarily, I would expect labor to refer to the number of mining jobs necessary to dig out a particular area, whereas net effect would be the number of tiles dug out. However, the comment you made would seem to imply the opposite. What exactly do you mean by labor? --[[User:LaVacaMorada|LaVacaMorada]] 01:17, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

== Economic Stone: Bauxite? ==

Excellent edit. I like the way you did it better than I, and your point is well-seen. Just figured I'd pop by to give a thumbs up since I would assume editor's changes aren't well-received as a general rule (though it seems most people here run contrary to that tenet). Anyway, good work! [[User:Erdtirdmans|Erd T. Mans]] (the guy who inserted Bauxite where it didn't belong!)

40d:Economic stone

2009-11-06T16:33:59Z

Erdtirdmans:

Economic [[stone]]s have special uses as [[ore]], [[fuel]] or [[flux]], or other uses like making special items. You can use the {{K|z}} : <tt>Stone</tt> menu to restrict or un-restrict their use in items and buildings. In technical terms, an economic stone is any stone which can be used as a reagent in any form of [[reaction]]. [[Obsidian]] is the exception because it can be used to make [[weapon|swords]]. Though technically not an economic stone, [[Bauxite]] is included here for the players' sake considering its special use for [[Magma-safe]] [[mechanism|mechanisms]].

The Stone menu will also show what each stone (except Bauxite) can be used for -- very useful for figuring out what you need to mine to make that obscure [[metal]] your [[noble]] is whining about.

{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Stone name
! Found in
! Found how
! Use
! Value
! Icons
|-
|[[Obsidian]]||[[:Category:Igneous Extrusive Stone Layers|Igneous extrusive]]||Full Layers||Swords||3||{{Raw Tile|▓|#aaa|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Calcite]]||Limestone, Marble||Small clusters||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|"|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Chalk]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|░|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Dolomite]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|`|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Limestone]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|▓|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Marble]]||[[:Category:Metamorphic Stone Layers|Metamorphic]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|▓|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Bituminous coal]]||All [[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]]||Veins||3 [[Coke]]||1||{{Raw Tile|☼|#888|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Lignite]]||All [[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]]||Veins||2 [[Coke]]||1||{{Raw Tile|*|#888|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Bauxite]]*||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Large clusters||''See above''||1||{{Raw Tile|+|#fff|#aaa}}
|}
[[Category:Economic Stone]]

40d:Economic stone

2009-11-06T16:19:03Z

Erdtirdmans: added footnote

Economic [[stone]]s have special uses as [[ore]], [[fuel]] or [[flux]], or other uses like making special items. You can use the {{K|z}} : <tt>Stone</tt> menu to restrict or un-restrict their use in items and buildings. In technical terms, an economic stone is any stone which can be used as a reagent in any form of [[reaction]]. [[Obsidian]] and [[Bauxite]] are exceptions, as they can be used to make [[weapon|swords]] and [[magma-safe]] [[mechanism|mechanisms]] respectively.

The Stone menu will also show what each stone can be used for--very useful for figuring out what you need to mine to make that obscure [[metal]] your [[noble]] is whining about.

{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Stone name
! Found in
! Found how
! Use
! Value
! Icons
|-
|[[Obsidian]]||[[:Category:Igneous Extrusive Stone Layers|Igneous extrusive]]||Full Layers||Swords||3||{{Raw Tile|▓|#aaa|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Calcite]]||Limestone, Marble||Small clusters||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|"|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Chalk]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|░|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Dolomite]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|`|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Limestone]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|▓|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Marble]]||[[:Category:Metamorphic Stone Layers|Metamorphic]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|▓|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Bituminous coal]]||All [[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]]||Veins||3 [[Coke]]||1||{{Raw Tile|☼|#888|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Lignite]]||All [[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]]||Veins||2 [[Coke]]||1||{{Raw Tile|*|#888|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Bauxite]]*||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Large clusters||[[Magma-safe]] [[mechanism|mechanisms]]||1||{{Raw Tile|+|#fff|#aaa}}
|}

* Though technically not an economic stone, Bauxite is included here for the players' sake considering its special case
[[Category:Economic Stone]]

40d:Economic stone

2009-11-06T16:13:58Z

Erdtirdmans: linked the word mechanisms in both places

Economic [[stone]]s have special uses as [[ore]], [[fuel]] or [[flux]], or other uses like making special items. You can use the {{K|z}} : <tt>Stone</tt> menu to restrict or un-restrict their use in items and buildings. In technical terms, an economic stone is any stone which can be used as a reagent in any form of [[reaction]]. [[Obsidian]] and [[Bauxite]] are exceptions, as they can be used to make [[weapon|swords]] and [[magma-safe]] [[mechanism|mechanisms]] respectively.

The Stone menu will also show what each stone can be used for--very useful for figuring out what you need to mine to make that obscure [[metal]] your [[noble]] is whining about.

{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Stone name
! Found in
! Found how
! Use
! Value
! Icons
|-
|[[Obsidian]]||[[:Category:Igneous Extrusive Stone Layers|Igneous extrusive]]||Full Layers||Swords||3||{{Raw Tile|▓|#aaa|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Calcite]]||Limestone, Marble||Small clusters||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|"|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Chalk]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|░|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Dolomite]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|`|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Limestone]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|▓|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Marble]]||[[:Category:Metamorphic Stone Layers|Metamorphic]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|▓|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Bituminous coal]]||All [[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]]||Veins||3 [[Coke]]||1||{{Raw Tile|☼|#888|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Lignite]]||All [[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]]||Veins||2 [[Coke]]||1||{{Raw Tile|*|#888|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Bauxite]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Large clusters||[[Magma-safe]] [[mechanism|mechanisms]]||1||{{Raw Tile|+|#fff|#aaa}}
|}
[[Category:Economic Stone]]

40d:Economic stone

2009-11-06T16:12:47Z

Erdtirdmans: Added Bauxite to the exception sentence.

Economic [[stone]]s have special uses as [[ore]], [[fuel]] or [[flux]], or other uses like making special items. You can use the {{K|z}} : <tt>Stone</tt> menu to restrict or un-restrict their use in items and buildings. In technical terms, an economic stone is any stone which can be used as a reagent in any form of [[reaction]]. [[Obsidian]] and [[Bauxite]] are exceptions, as they can be used to make [[weapon|swords]] and [[magma-safe]] [[mechanism|mechanisms]] respectively.

The Stone menu will also show what each stone can be used for--very useful for figuring out what you need to mine to make that obscure [[metal]] your [[noble]] is whining about.

{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Stone name
! Found in
! Found how
! Use
! Value
! Icons
|-
|[[Obsidian]]||[[:Category:Igneous Extrusive Stone Layers|Igneous extrusive]]||Full Layers||Swords||3||{{Raw Tile|▓|#aaa|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Calcite]]||Limestone, Marble||Small clusters||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|"|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Chalk]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|░|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Dolomite]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|`|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Limestone]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|▓|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Marble]]||[[:Category:Metamorphic Stone Layers|Metamorphic]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|▓|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Bituminous coal]]||All [[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]]||Veins||3 [[Coke]]||1||{{Raw Tile|☼|#888|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Lignite]]||All [[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]]||Veins||2 [[Coke]]||1||{{Raw Tile|*|#888|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Bauxite]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Large clusters||[[Magma-safe]] mechanisms||1||{{Raw Tile|+|#fff|#aaa}}
|}
[[Category:Economic Stone]]

40d:Economic stone

2009-11-06T16:09:56Z

Erdtirdmans: Added Bauxite as most would expect it here considering its special case for mechanisms

Economic [[stone]]s have special uses as [[ore]], [[fuel]] or [[flux]], or other uses like making special items. You can use the {{K|z}} : <tt>Stone</tt> menu to restrict or un-restrict their use in items and buildings. In technical terms, an economic stone is any stone which can be used as a reagent in any form of [[reaction]]. [[Obsidian]] is an exception, having been made an economic stone even though it is not used in any reaction - its specialty is that it can be used to craft swords.

The Stone menu will also show what each stone can be used for--very useful for figuring out what you need to mine to make that obscure [[metal]] your [[noble]] is whining about.

{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Stone name
! Found in
! Found how
! Use
! Value
! Icons
|-
|[[Obsidian]]||[[:Category:Igneous Extrusive Stone Layers|Igneous extrusive]]||Full Layers||Swords||3||{{Raw Tile|▓|#aaa|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Calcite]]||Limestone, Marble||Small clusters||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|"|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Chalk]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|░|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Dolomite]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|`|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Limestone]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|▓|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Marble]]||[[:Category:Metamorphic Stone Layers|Metamorphic]] Layer||Full Layers||[[Flux]]||2||{{Raw Tile|▓|#fff|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Bituminous coal]]||All [[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]]||Veins||3 [[Coke]]||1||{{Raw Tile|☼|#888|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Lignite]]||All [[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]]||Veins||2 [[Coke]]||1||{{Raw Tile|*|#888|#aaa}}
|-
|[[Bauxite]]||[[:Category:Sedimentary Stone Layers|Sedimentary]] Layer||Large clusters||[[Magma-safe]] mechanisms||1||{{Raw Tile|+|#fff|#aaa}}
|}
[[Category:Economic Stone]]

40d Talk:Dwarven physics

2009-11-05T18:55:46Z

Erdtirdmans:

40d:Dwarven physics

2009-11-02T10:30:16Z

Erdtirdmans: /* General Relativity */

{{D for dwarf}}

'''Dwarven physics''' is the study of how matter interacts with other matter within the world of Dwarf Fortress. Scholars of traditional Newtonian physics should note that Dwarven physics may or may not correspond with traditional Physics.

It is also worthy of mention that Dwarven physics is a highly complex subject, and thus only be approached by extremely intelligent, extremely curious, or extremely insane individuals.

==Overview==
Those familiar with traditional physics will recognize the following equation:

'''''E = mc2'''''

This equation, read from left to right, says: "Energy is equal to mass times the speed of light squared."

The following equation is known as the ''Dwarven Equation of Life, the Universe, and Everything'', and is the Dwarven adaption of the above:

'''''E''''' {{Dwarf|#fff|10px}} '''''mc2'''''

From left to right, it says: "Energy may or may not equal mass times the speed of light squared." Needless to say, there is a small amount of ambiguity when dealing with Dwarven physics. 

== The Dwarven method ==
The Dwarven method is a rubric by which experiments in Dwarf Fortress are conducted, but should not be confused with the Scientific method. Although the rigidity of the Dwarven method is disputed, the majority of important Dwarven experiments follow the Method. The Dwarven method consists of the following general guidelines: 

=== Sample size ===
Again, those familiar with traditional science may recognize the phrase, where it normally means, "The more the better." However, in Dwarven experiments, it means, "The '''''bigger''''' the better. For instance, a 500-meter magma fall is preferable to a 50-meter one. Now, if you had ''two'' 500-meter magma falls...

=== Repeatability ===
This is whether or not the experiment can be repeated, and if so, under what conditions. If there are few or no restrictions on repeatability, and your experiment receives the same results every time, it will likely be accepted as Dwarven fact. On the other hand, if said experiment can only be reproduced at infrequent or unpredictable intervals, and you were the only one to witness it, and you forgot to take a screenshot, and the experiment can only take place on your computer, and you mysteriously misplaced the savegame, your experiment will likely be dismissed as pointless drivel.

=== Dwarven factor ===
This factor is the approximate relative value of the prodigiousness of an experiment. Values must be real numbers, more specifically subsets of the Integer family. In layman's terms, the Dwarven factor is how awesome an experiment is. Keep in mind that the D-factor is relative, and thus intended to be compared with other values.

For instance, a cannon that shoots water may have a D-factor value of 100. However, if this cannon was constructed completely out of Adamantine, or if it was modified to shoot Magma instead, the D-factor may increase to several thousand, depending on the amount of magma used.

Note that a graph of the Dwarven factor may, and often will, asymptote. Vertical asymptotes are often seen when the D-factor of one experiment is just greater than that of another experiment.

Let us say that a hypothetical Player A constructed a catapult that hurls legendary Hammerdwarves at invaders, but Player B constructed a nearly identical catapult, except that it throws Zombie carp at invaders. Let us also say that the Zombie carp catapult has an assigned D-factor of 1,500. Both catapults ultimately accomplish the same task, (in this case, the complete annihilation of the invaders) but due to the inherent superiority of Zombie carp to hammerdwarves, (and everything else except Ironblood himself, booze, and magma) the Zombie carp catapult must have a higher D-factor than the other one. In this case, the D-factor graph of Catapult A will likely have an asymptote at 1,500. For those of you who aren't so calculus-savvy, this means that the D-factor of the "A" catapult will be approxamitely equal to 1,499.999999999, but will never reach 1,500.

Lastly, there is a direct correlation between the Dwarven factor and Sample size. Simply put, the bigger, the more Dwarvenly.

== The Dwarven status quo ==
The Dwarven index is strikingly similar to the concept of entropy. Although it involves chaos, the Index is more related with the innate stupidity of dwarves. A rough example of entropy is if a dwarf is given two decisions, and it is completely uncertain which one he will choose. (The concept of entropy relates loosely to the ''Dwarven Equation of Everything''.)

Even though it is similar to the concept of Entropy, the Dwarven index may produce different results, hence the differentiation between the two. The Dwarven index states, in a nutshell, that when a dwarf is faced with a decision he or she will make the ''wrong'' decision approximately 99.7% of the time. This could range from something minor like taking the long route to the kitchen, or to something like building a wall from the wrong side, getting stuck alone with a siege, ''dying a gory death'', and [[fun|sending the entirety of your fort into a massive tantrum spiral as the invaders split their sides laughing]]. While entropy will produce the wrong decision roughly 50% of the time, the Dwarven index will produce the wrong decision 99.7% of the time.

=== Summary of the Dwarven status quo ===
Dwarves are stupid.

== Discrepancies between Dwarven and traditional physics ==
The following items are possible in Dwarf Fortress, but impossible otherwise.

=== Dwarven perpetual motion device ===
As the name implies, this is a device that continuously generates power. Specifically, it generates power by building a [[water wheel]] in a [[waterfall]], then using said waterfall to power a [[screw pump]]. The screw pump is used to pump [[water]] back to its original [[Z-axis|Z-level]] and recycle it through the waterfall. Somehow, the device consistently generates a surplus of rotational energy.

=== Quantum garbage dumps ===
Perhaps the most common Dwarven anomaly, this is simply a 1x1 garbage [[dump]] zone, with massive amounts of items (usually [[stone]]) all contained in a single tile. The practicality is obvious—where else are you going to put all that stone?

=== Matter annihilation ===
Another common method of garbage disposal. Items and [[creature]]s in DF can be "annihilated" by placing them under a [[drawbridge]], and lowering the bridge. This is an example where the ''Dwarven Equation of Everything'' states that energy is ''not'' equal to mass times the speed of light squared. If the opposite was true, players would witness a massive explosion and a corresponding drop in FPS rate whenever an item was annihilated.

==== [[wagon|Indestructible Ultra-fearsome-Vehicle]] ====

The special case of the Matter annihilation: Annihilating the Matter of a [[wagon]] is simply not possible, which not only could be seen as further argument, that Dwarven physics have no relations between Matter and energy, but also it means that there must be kind of "God-Matter". But the latter is concern of the [[philosopher]] and his [[Dwarven philosophy]].

=== Matter creation ===
The reverse of matter annihilation is creating something from nothing. Examples include:

:* Obtaining enough [[sand]] from one tile to build a giant fortress out of [[glass]]
:* Obtaining an infinite amount of [[water]] from a single [[aquifer]] wall, isolated from the rest of the aquifer
:* Forging metal [[bars]] into [[blocks]], increasing their mass by 25% in the process
:* [[Melt]]ing 25 individual metal bolts (which consumed 1 bar to make), and retrieving 2.5 metal bars from those.

=== General Relativity ===
It is also important to note that while General Relativity is indeed a proven phenomenon in Dwarven Physics, the catalyst for time fluctuation is not the speed an object moves at (as in traditional physics) but instead the population density of its region. For decades, Dwarven Scientists have observed that, as local populations increase (dwarf, animal, or [[Waterfall|otherwise]]), the relative passage of time slows. To combat this, mayors have been known to enact ordinances ranging from the [[Maximizing framerate|simple and logical]] to the [[Catsplosion#Thermonuclear_catsplosion|ethically dubious]].

In a recent study by the Center for Dwarven Advancement, it was found that 40% of pioneer dwarves left the Mountainhome due to "framerate issues," with a margin of error of ±Booze.

=== Box of Everlasting Fire ===
Throughout man's history, fire has been used a super-weapon (Greek fire, flamethrowers, napalm). For the dwarves, this has manifested itself most notably with magma, and though fire typically consumes oxygen, [[Bin#Thermonuclear_Reaction|if contained within a magma-safe bin]], combustible materials immersed in magma become a source of much [[fun]].

[[Category:Physics]]
[[Category:Constructions]]

40d:Dwarven physics

2009-11-02T10:26:09Z

Erdtirdmans: added Box of Everlasting Fire

{{D for dwarf}}

'''Dwarven physics''' is the study of how matter interacts with other matter within the world of Dwarf Fortress. Scholars of traditional Newtonian physics should note that Dwarven physics may or may not correspond with traditional Physics.

It is also worthy of mention that Dwarven physics is a highly complex subject, and thus only be approached by extremely intelligent, extremely curious, or extremely insane individuals.

==Overview==
Those familiar with traditional physics will recognize the following equation:

'''''E = mc2'''''

This equation, read from left to right, says: "Energy is equal to mass times the speed of light squared."

The following equation is known as the ''Dwarven Equation of Life, the Universe, and Everything'', and is the Dwarven adaption of the above:

'''''E''''' {{Dwarf|#fff|10px}} '''''mc2'''''

From left to right, it says: "Energy may or may not equal mass times the speed of light squared." Needless to say, there is a small amount of ambiguity when dealing with Dwarven physics. 

== The Dwarven method ==
The Dwarven method is a rubric by which experiments in Dwarf Fortress are conducted, but should not be confused with the Scientific method. Although the rigidity of the Dwarven method is disputed, the majority of important Dwarven experiments follow the Method. The Dwarven method consists of the following general guidelines: 

=== Sample size ===
Again, those familiar with traditional science may recognize the phrase, where it normally means, "The more the better." However, in Dwarven experiments, it means, "The '''''bigger''''' the better. For instance, a 500-meter magma fall is preferable to a 50-meter one. Now, if you had ''two'' 500-meter magma falls...

=== Repeatability ===
This is whether or not the experiment can be repeated, and if so, under what conditions. If there are few or no restrictions on repeatability, and your experiment receives the same results every time, it will likely be accepted as Dwarven fact. On the other hand, if said experiment can only be reproduced at infrequent or unpredictable intervals, and you were the only one to witness it, and you forgot to take a screenshot, and the experiment can only take place on your computer, and you mysteriously misplaced the savegame, your experiment will likely be dismissed as pointless drivel.

=== Dwarven factor ===
This factor is the approximate relative value of the prodigiousness of an experiment. Values must be real numbers, more specifically subsets of the Integer family. In layman's terms, the Dwarven factor is how awesome an experiment is. Keep in mind that the D-factor is relative, and thus intended to be compared with other values.

For instance, a cannon that shoots water may have a D-factor value of 100. However, if this cannon was constructed completely out of Adamantine, or if it was modified to shoot Magma instead, the D-factor may increase to several thousand, depending on the amount of magma used.

Note that a graph of the Dwarven factor may, and often will, asymptote. Vertical asymptotes are often seen when the D-factor of one experiment is just greater than that of another experiment.

Let us say that a hypothetical Player A constructed a catapult that hurls legendary Hammerdwarves at invaders, but Player B constructed a nearly identical catapult, except that it throws Zombie carp at invaders. Let us also say that the Zombie carp catapult has an assigned D-factor of 1,500. Both catapults ultimately accomplish the same task, (in this case, the complete annihilation of the invaders) but due to the inherent superiority of Zombie carp to hammerdwarves, (and everything else except Ironblood himself, booze, and magma) the Zombie carp catapult must have a higher D-factor than the other one. In this case, the D-factor graph of Catapult A will likely have an asymptote at 1,500. For those of you who aren't so calculus-savvy, this means that the D-factor of the "A" catapult will be approxamitely equal to 1,499.999999999, but will never reach 1,500.

Lastly, there is a direct correlation between the Dwarven factor and Sample size. Simply put, the bigger, the more Dwarvenly.

== The Dwarven status quo ==
The Dwarven index is strikingly similar to the concept of entropy. Although it involves chaos, the Index is more related with the innate stupidity of dwarves. A rough example of entropy is if a dwarf is given two decisions, and it is completely uncertain which one he will choose. (The concept of entropy relates loosely to the ''Dwarven Equation of Everything''.)

Even though it is similar to the concept of Entropy, the Dwarven index may produce different results, hence the differentiation between the two. The Dwarven index states, in a nutshell, that when a dwarf is faced with a decision he or she will make the ''wrong'' decision approximately 99.7% of the time. This could range from something minor like taking the long route to the kitchen, or to something like building a wall from the wrong side, getting stuck alone with a siege, ''dying a gory death'', and [[fun|sending the entirety of your fort into a massive tantrum spiral as the invaders split their sides laughing]]. While entropy will produce the wrong decision roughly 50% of the time, the Dwarven index will produce the wrong decision 99.7% of the time.

=== Summary of the Dwarven status quo ===
Dwarves are stupid.

== Discrepancies between Dwarven and traditional physics ==
The following items are possible in Dwarf Fortress, but impossible otherwise.

=== Dwarven perpetual motion device ===
As the name implies, this is a device that continuously generates power. Specifically, it generates power by building a [[water wheel]] in a [[waterfall]], then using said waterfall to power a [[screw pump]]. The screw pump is used to pump [[water]] back to its original [[Z-axis|Z-level]] and recycle it through the waterfall. Somehow, the device consistently generates a surplus of rotational energy.

=== Quantum garbage dumps ===
Perhaps the most common Dwarven anomaly, this is simply a 1x1 garbage [[dump]] zone, with massive amounts of items (usually [[stone]]) all contained in a single tile. The practicality is obvious—where else are you going to put all that stone?

=== Matter annihilation ===
Another common method of garbage disposal. Items and [[creature]]s in DF can be "annihilated" by placing them under a [[drawbridge]], and lowering the bridge. This is an example where the ''Dwarven Equation of Everything'' states that energy is ''not'' equal to mass times the speed of light squared. If the opposite was true, players would witness a massive explosion and a corresponding drop in FPS rate whenever an item was annihilated.

==== [[wagon|Indestructible Ultra-fearsome-Vehicle]] ====

The special case of the Matter annihilation: Annihilating the Matter of a [[wagon]] is simply not possible, which not only could be seen as further argument, that Dwarven physics have no relations between Matter and energy, but also it means that there must be kind of "God-Matter". But the latter is concern of the [[philosopher]] and his [[Dwarven philosophy]].

=== Matter creation ===
The reverse of matter annihilation is creating something from nothing. Examples include:

:* Obtaining enough [[sand]] from one tile to build a giant fortress out of [[glass]]
:* Obtaining an infinite amount of [[water]] from a single [[aquifer]] wall, isolated from the rest of the aquifer
:* Forging metal [[bars]] into [[blocks]], increasing their mass by 25% in the process
:* [[Melt]]ing 25 individual metal bolts (which consumed 1 bar to make), and retrieving 2.5 metal bars from those.

=== General Relativity ===
It is also important to note that while General Relativity is indeed a proven phenomenon in Dwarven Physics, the catalyst for time fluctuation is not the speed an object moves at (as in traditional physics) but instead the population density of its region. For decades, Dwarven Scientists have observed that, as local populations increase (dwarf, animal, or [[Waterfall|otherwise]]), the relative passage of time slows. To combat this, mayors have been known to enact ordinances ranging from the [[Maximizing framerate|simple and logical]] to the [[Catsplosion#Thermonuclear_catsplosion|ethically dubious]].

In a recent study by the Center for Dwarven Advancement, it was found that 40% of pioneer dwarves left the Mountainhome due to "framerate issues," with an error rate of ±Booze.

=== Box of Everlasting Fire ===
Throughout man's history, fire has been used a super-weapon (Greek fire, flamethrowers, napalm). For the dwarves, this has manifested itself most notably with magma, and though fire typically consumes oxygen, [[Bin#Thermonuclear_Reaction|if contained within a magma-safe bin]], combustible materials immersed in magma become a source of much [[fun]].

[[Category:Physics]]
[[Category:Constructions]]

40d:Dwarven physics

2009-10-28T19:12:18Z

Erdtirdmans:

{{D for dwarf}}

'''Dwarven physics''' is the study of how matter interacts with other matter within the world of Dwarf Fortress. Scholars of traditional Newtonian physics should note that Dwarven physics may or may not correspond with traditional Physics.

It is also worthy of mention that Dwarven physics is a highly complex subject, and thus only be approached by extremely intelligent, extremely curious, or extremely insane individuals.

==Overview==
Those familiar with traditional physics will recognize the following equation:

'''''E = mc2'''''

This equation, read from left to right, says: "Energy is equal to mass times the speed of light squared."

The following equation is known as the ''Dwarven Equation of Life, the Universe, and Everything'', and is the Dwarven adaption of the above:

'''''E''''' {{Dwarf|#fff|10px}} '''''mc2'''''

From left to right, it says: "Energy may or may not equal mass times the speed of light squared." Needless to say, there is a small amount of ambiguity when dealing with Dwarven physics. 

== The Dwarven method ==
The Dwarven method is a rubric by which experiments in Dwarf Fortress are conducted, but should not be confused with the Scientific method. Although the rigidity of the Dwarven method is disputed, the majority of important Dwarven experiments follow the Method. The Dwarven method consists of the following general guidelines: 

=== Sample size ===
Again, those familiar with traditional science may recognize the phrase, where it normally means, "The more the better." However, in Dwarven experiments, it means, "The '''''bigger''''' the better. For instance, a 500-meter magma fall is preferable to a 50-meter one. Now, if you had ''two'' 500-meter magma falls...

=== Repeatability ===
This is whether or not the experiment can be repeated, and if so, under what conditions. If there are few or no restrictions on repeatability, and your experiment receives the same results every time, it will likely be accepted as Dwarven fact. On the other hand, if said experiment can only be reproduced at infrequent or unpredictable intervals, and you were the only one to witness it, and you forgot to take a screenshot, and the experiment can only take place on your computer, and you mysteriously misplaced the savegame, your experiment will likely be dismissed as pointless drivel.

=== Dwarven factor ===
This factor is the approximate relative value of the prodigiousness of an experiment. Values must be real numbers, more specifically subsets of the Integer family. In layman's terms, the Dwarven factor is how awesome an experiment is. Keep in mind that the D-factor is relative, and thus intended to be compared with other values.

For instance, a cannon that shoots water may have a D-factor value of 100. However, if this cannon was constructed completely out of Adamantine, or if it was modified to shoot Magma instead, the D-factor may increase to several thousand, depending on the amount of magma used.

Note that a graph of the Dwarven factor may, and often will, asymptote. Vertical asymptotes are often seen when the D-factor of one experiment is just greater than that of another experiment.

Let us say that a hypothetical Player A constructed a catapult that hurls legendary Hammerdwarves at invaders, but Player B constructed a nearly identical catapult, except that it throws Zombie carp at invaders. Let us also say that the Zombie carp catapult has an assigned D-factor of 1,500. Both catapults ultimately accomplish the same task, (in this case, the complete annihilation of the invaders) but due to the inherent superiority of Zombie carp to hammerdwarves, (and everything else except Ironblood himself, booze, and magma) the Zombie carp catapult must have a higher D-factor than the other one. In this case, the D-factor graph of Catapult A will likely have an asymptote at 1,500. For those of you who aren't so calculus-savvy, this means that the D-factor of the "A" catapult will be approxamitely equal to 1,499.999999999, but will never reach 1,500.

Lastly, there is a direct correlation between the Dwarven factor and Sample size. Simply put, the bigger, the more Dwarvenly.

== The Dwarven status quo ==
The Dwarven index is strikingly similar to the concept of entropy. Although it involves chaos, the Index is more related with the innate stupidity of dwarves. A rough example of entropy is if a dwarf is given two decisions, and it is completely uncertain which one he will choose. (The concept of entropy relates loosely to the ''Dwarven Equation of Everything''.)

Even though it is similar to the concept of Entropy, the Dwarven index may produce different results, hence the differentiation between the two. The Dwarven index states, in a nutshell, that when a dwarf is faced with a decision he or she will make the ''wrong'' decision approximately 99.7% of the time. This could range from something minor like taking the long route to the kitchen, or to something like building a wall from the wrong side, getting stuck alone with a siege, ''dying a gory death'', and [[fun|sending the entirety of your fort into a massive tantrum spiral as the invaders split their sides laughing]]. While entropy will produce the wrong decision roughly 50% of the time, the Dwarven index will produce the wrong decision 99.7% of the time.

=== Summary of the Dwarven status quo ===
Dwarves are stupid.

== Discrepancies between Dwarven and traditional physics ==
The following items are possible in Dwarf Fortress, but impossible otherwise.

=== Dwarven perpetual motion device ===
As the name implies, this is a device that continuously generates power. Specifically, it generates power by building a [[water wheel]] in a [[waterfall]], then using said waterfall to power a [[screw pump]]. The screw pump is used to pump [[water]] back to its original [[Z-axis|Z-level]] and recycle it through the waterfall. Somehow, the device consistently generates a surplus of rotational energy.

=== Quantum garbage dumps ===
Perhaps the most common Dwarven anomaly, this is simply a 1x1 garbage [[dump]] zone, with massive amounts of items (usually [[stone]]) all contained in a single tile. The practicality is obvious—where else are you going to put all that stone?

=== Matter annihilation ===
Another common method of garbage disposal. Items and [[creature]]s in DF can be "annihilated" by placing them under a [[drawbridge]], and lowering the bridge. This is an example where the ''Dwarven Equation of Everything'' states that energy is ''not'' equal to mass times the speed of light squared. If the opposite was true, players would witness a massive explosion and a corresponding drop in FPS rate whenever an item was annihilated.

=== General Relativity ===
It is also important to note that while General Relativity is indeed a proven phenomenon in Dwarven Physics, the catalyst for time fluctuation is not the speed an object moves at (as in traditional physics) but instead the population density of its region. For decades, Dwarven Scientists have observed that, as local populations increase (dwarf, animal, or [[Waterfall|otherwise]]), the relative passage of time slows. To combat this, mayors have been known to enact ordinances ranging from the [[Maximizing framerate|simple and logical]] to the [[Catsplosion#Thermonuclear_catsplosion|ethically dubious]].

In a recent study by the Center for Dwarven Advancement, it was found that 40% of pioneer dwarves left the Mountainhome due to "framerate issues," with an error rate of ±Booze.

[[Category:Physics]]
[[Category:Constructions]]

40d:Dwarven physics

2009-10-28T19:11:15Z

Erdtirdmans: General Relativity added. Previous edit was a minor one, linking the "Fun" page

{{D for dwarf}}

'''Dwarven physics''' is the study of how matter interacts with other matter within the world of Dwarf Fortress. Scholars of traditional Newtonian physics should note that Dwarven physics may or may not correspond with traditional Physics.

It is also worthy of mention that Dwarven physics is a highly complex subject, and thus only be approached by extremely intelligent, extremely curious, or extremely insane individuals.

==Overview==
Those familiar with traditional physics will recognize the following equation:

'''''E = mc2'''''

This equation, read from left to right, says: "Energy is equal to mass times the speed of light squared."

The following equation is known as the ''Dwarven Equation of Life, the Universe, and Everything'', and is the Dwarven adaption of the above:

'''''E''''' {{Dwarf|#fff|10px}} '''''mc2'''''

From left to right, it says: "Energy may or may not equal mass times the speed of light squared." Needless to say, there is a small amount of ambiguity when dealing with Dwarven physics. 

== The Dwarven method ==
The Dwarven method is a rubric by which experiments in Dwarf Fortress are conducted, but should not be confused with the Scientific method. Although the rigidity of the Dwarven method is disputed, the majority of important Dwarven experiments follow the Method. The Dwarven method consists of the following general guidelines: 

=== Sample size ===
Again, those familiar with traditional science may recognize the phrase, where it normally means, "The more the better." However, in Dwarven experiments, it means, "The '''''bigger''''' the better. For instance, a 500-meter magma fall is preferable to a 50-meter one. Now, if you had ''two'' 500-meter magma falls...

=== Repeatability ===
This is whether or not the experiment can be repeated, and if so, under what conditions. If there are few or no restrictions on repeatability, and your experiment receives the same results every time, it will likely be accepted as Dwarven fact. On the other hand, if said experiment can only be reproduced at infrequent or unpredictable intervals, and you were the only one to witness it, and you forgot to take a screenshot, and the experiment can only take place on your computer, and you mysteriously misplaced the savegame, your experiment will likely be dismissed as pointless drivel.

=== Dwarven factor ===
This factor is the approximate relative value of the prodigiousness of an experiment. Values must be real numbers, more specifically subsets of the Integer family. In layman's terms, the Dwarven factor is how awesome an experiment is. Keep in mind that the D-factor is relative, and thus intended to be compared with other values.

For instance, a cannon that shoots water may have a D-factor value of 100. However, if this cannon was constructed completely out of Adamantine, or if it was modified to shoot Magma instead, the D-factor may increase to several thousand, depending on the amount of magma used.

Note that a graph of the Dwarven factor may, and often will, asymptote. Vertical asymptotes are often seen when the D-factor of one experiment is just greater than that of another experiment.

Let us say that a hypothetical Player A constructed a catapult that hurls legendary Hammerdwarves at invaders, but Player B constructed a nearly identical catapult, except that it throws Zombie carp at invaders. Let us also say that the Zombie carp catapult has an assigned D-factor of 1,500. Both catapults ultimately accomplish the same task, (in this case, the complete annihilation of the invaders) but due to the inherent superiority of Zombie carp to hammerdwarves, (and everything else except Ironblood himself, booze, and magma) the Zombie carp catapult must have a higher D-factor than the other one. In this case, the D-factor graph of Catapult A will likely have an asymptote at 1,500. For those of you who aren't so calculus-savvy, this means that the D-factor of the "A" catapult will be approxamitely equal to 1,499.999999999, but will never reach 1,500.

Lastly, there is a direct correlation between the Dwarven factor and Sample size. Simply put, the bigger, the more Dwarvenly.

== The Dwarven status quo ==
The Dwarven index is strikingly similar to the concept of entropy. Although it involves chaos, the Index is more related with the innate stupidity of dwarves. A rough example of entropy is if a dwarf is given two decisions, and it is completely uncertain which one he will choose. (The concept of entropy relates loosely to the ''Dwarven Equation of Everything''.)

Even though it is similar to the concept of Entropy, the Dwarven index may produce different results, hence the differentiation between the two. The Dwarven index states, in a nutshell, that when a dwarf is faced with a decision he or she will make the ''wrong'' decision approximately 99.7% of the time. This could range from something minor like taking the long route to the kitchen, or to something like building a wall from the wrong side, getting stuck alone with a siege, ''dying a gory death'', and [[fun|sending the entirety of your fort into a massive tantrum spiral as the invaders split their sides laughing]]. While entropy will produce the wrong decision roughly 50% of the time, the Dwarven index will produce the wrong decision 99.7% of the time.

=== Summary of the Dwarven status quo ===
Dwarves are stupid.

== Discrepancies between Dwarven and traditional physics ==
The following items are possible in Dwarf Fortress, but impossible otherwise.

=== Dwarven perpetual motion device ===
As the name implies, this is a device that continuously generates power. Specifically, it generates power by building a [[water wheel]] in a [[waterfall]], then using said waterfall to power a [[screw pump]]. The screw pump is used to pump [[water]] back to its original [[Z-axis|Z-level]] and recycle it through the waterfall. Somehow, the device consistently generates a surplus of rotational energy.

=== Quantum garbage dumps ===
Perhaps the most common Dwarven anomaly, this is simply a 1x1 garbage [[dump]] zone, with massive amounts of items (usually [[stone]]) all contained in a single tile. The practicality is obvious—where else are you going to put all that stone?

=== Matter annihilation ===
Another common method of garbage disposal. Items and [[creature]]s in DF can be "annihilated" by placing them under a [[drawbridge]], and lowering the bridge. This is an example where the ''Dwarven Equation of Everything'' states that energy is ''not'' equal to mass times the speed of light squared. If the opposite was true, players would witness a massive explosion and a corresponding drop in FPS rate whenever an item was annihilated.

== General Relativity ==
It is also important to note that while General Relativity is indeed a proven phenomenon in Dwarven Physics, the catalyst for time fluctuation is not the speed an object moves at (as in traditional physics) but instead the population density of its region. For decades, Dwarven Scientists have observed that, as local populations increase (dwarf, animal, or [[Waterfall|otherwise]]), the relative passage of time slows. To combat this, mayors have been known to enact ordinances ranging from the [[Maximizing framerate|simple and logical]] to the [[Catsplosion#Thermonuclear_catsplosion|ethically dubious]].

In a recent study by the Center for Dwarven Advancement, it was found that 40% of pioneer dwarves left the Mountainhome due to "framerate issues," with an error rate of ±Booze.

[[Category:Physics]]
[[Category:Constructions]]

40d:Dwarven physics

2009-10-28T18:40:26Z

Erdtirdmans: /* The Dwarven status quo */

User:Erdtirdmans

2009-03-17T10:15:39Z

Erdtirdmans: Created page with 'I like dorfs. At some point, I may make some meaningful contributions to the Wiki. In the mean time, I'll leave it up to the vets and relegate myself to minor edits for grammar...'

I like dorfs.

At some point, I may make some meaningful contributions to the Wiki. In the mean time, I'll leave it up to the vets and relegate myself to minor edits for grammar and wording.

40d Talk:Philosopher

2009-03-17T10:13:03Z

Erdtirdmans: added my Philosopher arrival data

==Arrival Data==

Thought we could start posting any significant information or events related to the philosopher arriving, in an attempt to work out what causes it. The philosopher arrived for me in the first migrant wave after breaking 110 population, in the spring of my 4th year. Fortress wealth was 124879, and one of my Axe Lords had just become a Champion. Nothing else significant occured between that migrant wave and the previous one. --[[User:TangoThree|TangoThree]] 14:46, 26 November 2007 (EST)

In the previous version the philosopher came when you hit 100 dwarves. The philosopher came when I hit 100 in this version too. [[User:Bouchart|Bouchart]] 15:30, 26 November 2007 (EST)

: I cannot confirm this. I had 101 Dwarves, and the next immigrant wave did not include the philosopher. [[User:Drahflow|Drahflow]] 15:23, 29 January 2008 (EST)

: I cannot confirm this either. I have 106 Dwarves and with this immigration arriving just after an Elf caravan left a Wise man arrived. I can think of nothing I've recently done that may have triggered it either. [[User:Khimaera_UK|Khimaera_UK]] 14:29, 27th December 2008 (GMT)

My philosopher just showed up. He showed up by himself with no other immigrants. I had 100+ dwarves, but tragedy struck (quite a bit) a couple seasons ago, and now I only have 93. [[User:Holyfool|Holyfool]] 13:40, 7 March 2008 (EST)

My first encounter with a Philosopher; pop 127 (has been >120 since the last immigration, raised again more recently by several births). Created wealth: 516819, imported: 336914, exported: 24047. -- [[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 20:35, 6 April 2008 (EDT)

I was in middle of trading with the elves when my philosopher came (Just now). But before the elves came, I was working on a sorting scheme to dispose of the elves as 'CrazyMcfobo Absolutely detests elves' My wealth was well over a million, and populating is just over 100.--[[User:CrazyMcfobo|CrazyMcfobo]] 17:20, 10 April 2008 (EDT)

He came to mine when my population hit 133. I have about 20 military dwarves, half of which are currently in the guard. I also had plenty of jail and bedroom space. I had a Imported Wealth of 393,564*, and 816 seeds. I also had 19 farmers and 12 craftsdwarves... but apart from that there isnt really a lot more to say. Seems to come at high population counts.

I have recieved the Philosopher with a population of just 99, although I have had population levels higher in the past. The Philosopher came in spring, just after I had annoyed the Elves with an ash amulet that accidently slipped into my export. Rest of stats as follows: Created Wealth: 1250863 Imported Wealth: 820901 Exported Wealth: 22041. Of note perhaps is that earlier in the spring I gained another legendary dwarf, bringing the count of legendarys up to 17, another 7 legendarys are dead--[[User:ArkTane|ArkTane]] 19:22, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

Arrival - Population:130 ; Created wealth:1,575,988 ; Food stores:9,290 (seeds:2433, drink:3105, other:3208) ; 13 legendary dwarves ; 6 royal guard, 13 fortress guard, 2 elite wrestlers ; 10 noble positions w/ 8 nobles, not counting philosopher ; 9 artifacts ; mid-spring arrival. --[[User:Mattmoss|Mattmoss]] 17:44, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

Arrival - Population:108 ; Created Wealth 897,805 ; Food stores:1082 ; 3 nobles aside from philosopher ; 7 artifacts ; mid-spring arrival. Just prior to the philosopher's arrival, I started my glass industry, built some windows, installed them around a lake, and channeled out the wall between the lake and the windows making a useless and big aquarium. Maybe the philosopher appreciates wastes of time? [[User:Lungfish|Lungfish]]

Arrival mid spring - population 161 ; Created wealth 800k+ ; foodstores probably 5k+ ; 6 nobles including duke/duchess, hammerer, DM, tax collector and I had the King Incoming for a couple of seasons(the baron kept being promoted every season before that) ; 2 royal guard, 8 fortress guard ; I had every industry long underway ; my tax collector got more experienced; 7 artifacts. I had been at pop 100+ for a significant time so I assumed it had to do with the king being incoming. I had the first managerial job completed that season. --[[User:Egregius|Egregius]] 14:30, 28 January 2009 (EST)

Arrival - Population 176; created wealth 1053219; arrived along with all other nobles up to Countess. All arrived together and with no other migrants; just finished a flooded tunnel trap that should kill invaders and finished giving EVERY single one of my dwarves a bedroom except for children and babies.

Arrival - Population 111 (112 with him). Created weath 1 135 479. He arrived alone. No other migrants arrived with him. I have 14 legendaries, and around the time he arrived I had JUST created bedrooms for all NON-MILITARY Dwarves. The military have 4 beds for about 15 dwarves. I only had one other noble: Dungeon Master, not counting mayor and my bookkeeper, etc. No Fortress Guard, no Royal Guard, no guard of any sort. --[[User:Inoko|Inoko]] 22:05, 7 March 2009 (EST)

130 population. 1,479,923 created wealth of which 696,076 is architecture. 470,259 imported wealth, 28,006 exported. 16 legendary dwarves of which only 4 are military. He arrived by himself separate of any normal migration in Mid-Spring. My military is a total of 8 dwarves, the Royal Guard is 4/8, and the Fortress Guard is non-existant. Everyone has their own cheap and affordable bedrooms. Hopefully at least some of this is relevant. [[User:Erdtirdmans|ErdTirdMans]] 6:10, 17 March 2009 (EST)

==URGENT!! PHILOSOPHER DOING WORK!!==

I was just looking around my fort when a noble (i thought it was my mayor) started demolishing a wall. Then when i looked closer it turned out to be my philosopher!!! I took a screenshot but I don't know how to upload it here. Can someone tell me how? --[[User:Stinhad Limarezum|Stinhad Limarezum]] 00:14, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
:It might be that deconstructiong walls is an all-dwarf adults-only task, which is rare to see. --[[User:GreyMario|GreyMaria]] 01:04, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
:: AFAIK, Deconstruction is indeed an all-dwarf task. I'm pretty sure I saw a kid doing it. Kids will also work in the fields, so I suspect Philsophers will also harvest. --[[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 01:35, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
:::I've definitely seen children deconstructing walls. They love nothing else more, it seems, even though they take ages and ages to do it. Making a 'playpen' of walls for them to knock down can be a nice way to keep children inside in dangerous times, though excluding adult dwarfs from it can be a problem. --[[User:Corona688|Corona688]] 13:31, 1 December 2008 (EST)

:"Upload file", left side of your screen. But you don't need to show us a screenshot in this case; nobles working is a known phenomenon, outlined at [[labor]]. "Remove construction" was missing from the list there, though, so it's good you brought it up.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 03:22, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

My Philospher is currently Trading at Depot I'm impressed...--[[User:Loganis|Loganis]] 01:54, 1 December 2008 (EST)
:I've actually found that if I turn off "Only Broker Can Trade" (generally because my broker insists on drinking, sleeping, or breaks rather than actually trading), the Nobles are the people who pick up the job nine times out of ten. Which kind of makes sense, since they don't really do any other work, leaving them free to pick up the suddenly available job. -[[User:Fuzzy|Fuzzy]] 08:47, 1 December 2008 (EST)

::Has anyone ever seen children do trading, or just nobles?--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 10:00, 1 December 2008 (EST)

My philosopher has the thought, "had to talk to someone annoying," so philosophers might do consoling pacifying work that the mayor also presumably does. [[User:Afu|Afu]] 04:19, 30 January 2009 (EST)

:That was just a conversation, and might have even created a grudge. All idle dwarves have them, hence the large number of dwarves getting lots of skill raises despite sitting around doing nothing, as typically happens in Elitist fortresses, where only the skilled dwarves do any of the actual work. (Note: this is conducive to perpetual homelessness and a depression-spiral at around 100 dwarves, assuming you're not [[Init.txt#FINDER|cheating]], of course.) --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 06:46, 30 January 2009 (EST)

It appears that the Philosopher can at least change prices of items in your fortress.
[[Image:Proof.JPG]]

:My philosopher is also an adept grower. I turned on "all dwarfs harvest" and so all the kids and nobles are out there picking food. I've had kids with master grower skills.--[[User:Kwieland|Kwieland]] 11:53, 6 March 2009 (EST)