Dwarf Fortress Wiki - User contributions [en]

v0.31 Talk:Giant

2010-11-05T18:52:50Z

Carlthuringer:

== My visit by a giantess ==

My fortress recently got visited by a female giant and I would like to write about the experience hoping that it will help to write a good article about this topic and maybe also give a bit insight into the combat system.

It was the 4th year of my fortress. Due to various hijinks my fortress was completely sealed off when she arrived. I said to myself "Well, she is blinking and named and stuff, better I do not dig out too eagerly". So the giantess sat around outside twiddling her thumbs.

Just a few minutes later an immigration wave arrived. Time to construct a few more coffins, I thought. The giantess immediately rushed towards them slaughtering a few pets without problems. Finally she got the first dwarf, a dyer without any combat skills.

I decided that the immigrants should at least die fighting like real dwarfs. So I drafted them in the military creating two squads of 5 and 6 from them. None of the immigrants was armed as far as I saw.

In the meantime she quite took her time with the dyer. A peek at the combat log showed that she was just strangling the dyer's throat in every one of her turns without doing much damage. It also seemed like killing the pets was quite tiring for her because she frequently "fell to the ground from over-exhaustion" during the fight.

When my zerg rush arrived she didn't really stood a chance. They started pummeling her "bruising the muscles" of all kinds of body parts and occasionally also bruising her guts, lungs, stomach and sometimes other organs. She became exhausted, started vomiting frequently and passed out from time to time. After which seemed like a few hundred punches she died. It didn't seem like she was fighting back. The dyer she attacked first also died from bleeding, though.
[[Image:Giantess1.png]][[Image:Giantess2.png]]

== Giant attack ==

I too was recently attacked by a Giant. I was immediately worried my poorly-trained band of 10 randomly-equipped dwarves would be slaughtered, but it was not the case. The giant came completely naked, and as soon as he met the first dwarf in combat he was hacked repeatedly in the back and stomach by his iron battle axe. The axedwarf was able to deflect all the blows with his leather armor and skills, and once the other dwarves arrived the giant was handily eviscerated. From the knees up, of course.

Based on our experiences, I'd say that Giants aren't much cause for worry, so long as you have a numerical advantage. Some sharp stuff certainly helps.

Let us watch out for a real challenge, a giant wearing shin guards.--[[User:Carlthuringer|Carlthuringer]] 18:52, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

40d:Wizard

2010-03-24T06:07:19Z

Carlthuringer:

A '''wizard''' is a [[fanciful]] person who is merely the stuff of legends. They do not actually exist, appearing only in [[engraving]]s as the fancy of artists, as there is no such thing as [[magic]]. All [[dwarf|dwarves]] know this, and anyone who says otherwise is surely an [[elf|elven]] trickster.

Dwarf Fortress presently does not include a robust or finalized [[magic]] system, so they are in the game's [[:category:modding|raw object data]] only in order to allow them to appear in engravings.

[[Category:Lore]]

40d:Wizard

2010-03-24T06:06:02Z

Carlthuringer: /* In the future */

A '''wizard''' is a [[fanciful]] person who is merely the stuff of legends. They do not actually exist, appearing only in [[engraving]]s as the fancy of artists, as there is no such thing as [[magic]]. All [[dwarf|dwarves]] know this, and anyone who says otherwise is surely an [[elf|elven]] trickster.

==In the future==

Dwarf Fortress presently does not include a robust or finalized [[magic]] system, so they are in the game's [[:category:modding|raw object data]] only in order to allow them to appear in engravings.

[[Category:Lore]]

40d:Wizard

2010-03-24T06:03:12Z

Carlthuringer: /* In the future */ Assertion that they are a placeholder is unsupported.

A '''wizard''' is a [[fanciful]] person who is merely the stuff of legends. They do not actually exist, appearing only in [[engraving]]s as the fancy of artists, as there is no such thing as [[magic]]. All [[dwarf|dwarves]] know this, and anyone who says otherwise is surely an [[elf|elven]] trickster.

==In the future==

Dwarf Fortress presently does not include a robust or finalized magic system, so they are in the game's [[:category:modding|raw object data]] only in order to allow them to appear in engravings.

[[Category:Lore]]

40d Talk:Wizard

2010-03-24T06:01:55Z

Carlthuringer:

I have a dwarf who likes wizards for their wonderful beards. Personally I like them for their pointy hats. --[[User:Diabl0658]]

We're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of Oz. --[[User:AlexFili]]

One of my dwarves just made a image of a wizard skull in horse leather. They are not real, and yet they can die... [[User:Rickola]]

:I have to wonder just what makes a wizard skull any different from, uh... dwarf or human skulls, whichever race they're of. I don't suppose they're an entirely different race. Maybe their bones are surrounded by a perpetual eldritch nimbus. [[User:Pariah|Pariah]] 02:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
::As far as the game is conserned, Wizards are an entirely different race.--[[User:Zchris13|Zchris13]] 16:52, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

What is it that gives wizards their fireball attack? I can't see anything in the raws that would give them it. I'm looking for a way to give my explosive silk-spraying dwarves an "ignite" for it. -[[Special:Contributions/82.25.8.49|82.25.8.49]] 12:46, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

This article is up for verify, and I want to tackle it. This means figuring out how exactly to mod wizards into the game. The article should probably provide an excerpt to be inserted into (or to replace) the raws that will allow playing wizards in fortress mode. Will probably result in almost immediate [[40d:Losing|Fun]] if the video is any indication.--[[User:Carlthuringer|Carlthuringer]] 11:57, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

== Verify ==
For starters, directly from the RAW file creature_standard.txt
<pre><nowiki>
[CREATURE:WIZARD]
[NAME:wizard:wizards:wizard]
[TILE:'@'][COLOR:6:0:1]
[GENPOWER:5]
[BENIGN]
[INTELLIGENT][LIKES_FIGHTING][MAGICAL]
[TRAPAVOID]
[CANOPENDOORS]
[SIZE:7]
[PREFSTRING:mysterious power]
[PREFSTRING:wonderful beards]
[BODY:HUMANOID:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:HUMANOID_JOINTS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:5FINGERS:5TOES:MOUTH]
[ATTACK:MAIN:BYTYPE:GRASP:punch:punches:1:2:BLUDGEON][ATTACKFLAG_WITH]
[ATTACK:SECOND:BYTYPE:MOUTH:bite:bites:1:1:GORE][ATTACKFLAG_CANLATCH]
[FAT:3]
[EQUIPS]
[ALL_ACTIVE]
[STANDARD_FLESH]
[HOMEOTHERM:10067]
[LAYERING:25]
[SWIMS_LEARNED][SWIM_SPEED:2500]

</nowiki>
</pre>
We know that wizards in Vanilla DF are:
Humanoid, and relatively similar to Humans.
Magical/Fanciful, by the <nowiki>[MAGICAL]</nowiki> token.
They have 'mysterious power' and 'wonderful beards'.
They can bite and punch and they don't mind a fight.
They're intelligent, which means they can speak and stuff.

As it stands, the summary text is pretty decent, though I might suggest:
'A wizard is a [[Fanciful|Magical]] person that exists only in legend. Their wonderful beards are often featured in fanciful engravings by artists, but as there is no such thing as magic, all [Dwarf|dwarves] know they do not exist. Anyone who says otherwise is surely an [Elf|elven] trickster.'
This seems appropriate if the wiki is intended to be written by dwarves, for dwarves.

I may be pushing references and verification from my experience with other wikis, but I think it would be beneficial to add some links to pertinent forum and bay12games pages for the subheading, 'In the Future' that would corroborate the plan for magic to be added to the game.

I feel that the incomplete information about modding Wizards into the game should be moved to a separate article on the topic of modding creatures into the game and linked from here.

The video is interesting, but I haven't been able to replicate either the contents of the video, nor the ability of wizards to throw fireballs yet. As such, that information should be pulled back here, to the talk page for more discussion on exactly how to reproduce the bug, and even if it is discovered, probably is better suited to a page about entertaining dwarf fortress bugs or just the aforementioned modding page.

I have confirmed that adding a biome entity in the entity_default.txt file with the creature set as wizards, and giving them CIV_CONTROLLABLE makes wizards playable, but none of my dwarves would use a hidden fireball attack, even when pitted in terrifying surroundings against roving werewolves.
--[[User:Carlthuringer|Carlthuringer]] 07:42, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

==Modding Wizards into the game==
MOVED
Wizards can be modded into the game by giving them a civilization entity. In this state, you will find that they shoot fireballs at enemies, making them extremely dangerous to themselves and others.

The may also need to be given a [[biome]] [[token]] in which they will then appear.

In a similar manner, wizards can sometimes show up if you make some serious mistakes when [[modding]], or when installing a new version of Dwarf Fortress on top of an old installation. In this case, definition files will "get their wires crossed", so to speak, and you may find things ''extremely'' strange, more than just witnessing wizards hanging around.

See this video [http://mkv25.net/dfma/movie-55-wizardtowergoingupinsmoke of a wizard tower] as an example. Gemstones litter the ground like pebbles, and the world is on fire.

:I haven't been able to successfully mod wizards into my games, plus I don't believe that modding is a topic for the Wizard page.
--[[User:Carlthuringer|Carlthuringer]] 06:01, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

40d Talk:Wizard

2010-03-24T06:01:20Z

Carlthuringer:

40d:Wizard

2010-03-24T05:59:34Z

Carlthuringer: Move mod to talk, and therefore need for verification is removed.

A '''wizard''' is a [[fanciful]] person who is merely the stuff of legends. They do not actually exist, appearing only in [[engraving]]s as the fancy of artists, as there is no such thing as [[magic]]. All [[dwarf|dwarves]] know this, and anyone who says otherwise is surely an [[elf|elven]] trickster.

==In the future==

Wizards are a placeholder for the [[magic]] system. Dwarf Fortress presently does not include a robust or finalized magic system, so they are in the game's [[:category:modding|raw object data]] only in order to allow them to appear in engravings.

[[Category:Lore]]

Category talk:Mods

2010-03-14T07:17:04Z

Carlthuringer:

Cranked out this outline/draft.--[[User:Carlthuringer|Carlthuringer]] 10:40, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Cleaning up talk. Leave current info in, see history for old stuff. --[[User:Carlthuringer|Carlthuringer]] 07:17, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

== Community Guidelines ==
[[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Community_Portal#N|N]] is for Names. New pages should be singular nouns wherever applicable with few exceptions.
[[Mod]] Should probably redirect to [[Mods]] which seems to follow well with [[Creatures]], [[Skills]], [[Buildings]] as a category comprised of many similar items. [[Mod]] currently redirects to Template:Mod.
:[[Main_page]] has been linked to [[Mods]] instead of [[Modding]]--[[User:Carlthuringer|Carlthuringer]] 07:17, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I propose that [[Modding]] be copied and moved to [[40d:Modding_reference]]. [[Modding]] might then redirect naturally to [[40d:Modding_guide]], which can link to [[40d:Modding_reference]].

Then [[Modding]] will have sub-category [[40d:Modding_reference]] and also link to [[40d:Modding_guide]]

===Unofficial Naming Conventions===
Editors have run into a similar confusion with other topics where "theory" vs "examples" tended to muddy each other. The solution was to create "design" articles, pages whose ''sole'' function was to act as a repository and showcase for user-created examples, their personal spin on the topic. See [[trap]] vs. [[trap design]], or [[bed]] vs. [[bedroom]] vs. [[bedroom design]], each of which have specifically different content, the game item vs theory vs examples. So that would suggest changing the name of that article from "Mods" to "Mod design", to keep it parallel to other articles. And the search word "mods" could then redirect either to here, or to the Category or the Guide. As a thought.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 14:19, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
:I agree with your assessment on this, Albedo. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 15:14, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
::So you're saying that 'Mods' should be moved to 'Mod design' and contain examples of such? But unlike [[bedroom design]] Mods is a rather broad topic with many subjects, like graphics sets, tweaks and cheats, new species, and so on.
Right now I'm actually considering whether we might clean up the rest of the articles left in the 'Mods' category, then try reconciling them with the growing [[Modification:]] namespace and the [[40d:]] namespace.
I actually realize that rather than 'Mods' perhaps 'Modification' is a better topic to match up with 'bed' and 'trap', re: this discussion here. Then we might work on knitting together these disparate lists of mods.--[[User:Carlthuringer|Carlthuringer]] 07:17, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

== Pages linked to [[Mods]] and [[Modding]] ==
[[Main_Page]] Links to [[Modding]]. (Note all the other categories grammatical leaning: Dwarves, World, Buildings, Modding, Items, Interface. Wouldn't the plural noun 'Mods' fit better, logically, in that table than the Gerunnd 'modding'?) Furthermore, [[Modding]] is an index of token references, which won't help new players one bit, IMHO.
It should probably link to [[Mods]].
:[[Mods]] are finished products, not a discussion of "modding", which is what most using that word in the Search function are looking for. "Modding" should link to the [[Modding guide]], which should then, in turn, link users to all the other related articles, like "mods"... (& see comments immed below) --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 13:53, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

[[40d:Civilization]]

[[User:MaxVance/Main_Glade|The Elf Forest Wiki]] Huh. Anyways, it's mostly a copy of [[Main_Page]]

[[40d:Wizard]] Linked by the Gerund form 'modding,' evidence for the redirection argument.

[[Mods]] "If you want to know how to create Mods, see [[Modding]]." Except that [[Modding]] doesnt' tell you how to create mods, so good luck, there!

[[User:Mason11987/All_Categories]] A list of all the categories.

[[User_talk:Briess]] Part of discussion suggesting a custom namespace, 'Mod' to cover all mod-related pages on the wiki. Sounds like namespace nightmare, what with the 40d namespace beginning to propogate and become standard.

:(cont'd from immed above)
:...I think the title of this subsection points to one of the current problems - that users might type in "mod" or "mods" or "modding" to Search for a "How to" article, but NONE of those lead to it. When I created that green "M Category:Modding" template, I also created a redirect for the word [[mod]], since that's the word in the template, " <nowiki>{{mod}}</nowiki> ". (It made more sense to me than any other template name at the time, and fewer letters to type).
:Similarly (I'm guessing), when the user ([[Nate879]]) later created this category (and Thanks to them for doing so!), they created a redirect for the word [[modding]] to more easily navigate back to this page, since the article name is " [[:category:modding]] " and that ''cannot'' be used as a link (it turns invisible unless typed as <nowiki>[[:category:modding]]</nowiki>, as any category tag does!) That may have made sense at the time, but it doesn't work for users now seeking information on "modding".
:And that's what started the problem. When a user types in "mod", they get the template (wrong), so they then type in "modding" and find themselves here. And that's why the (inappropriate) stub article on modding exists on this page. (That, and no one has ever created links TO the [[modding Guide]]! HINT HINT!)
:So, currently...
::* [[mod]] redirects to the template itself.
::* [[mods]] redirects to a list of completed, user-created mods.
::* [[modding]] ''(at the time of this writing, but not for long)'' redirects to [[:category:modding]], which lists anything that has been put in this category using the " <nowiki>[[category:modding]]</nowiki> " tag - which is all the mods ''plus'' articles on [[token]]s etc., etc.
:And that last is what's fueling the problem. So I'm going to Be Bold and fix that, at least, redirecting "modding" to the "modding guide". I suggest that most of that "article" be copied/pasted to the Modding Guide (and/or in part to the top of the [[mods]] page, which '''DESPERATELY''' needs some explanation and a "How to"), and also that some Disambig-style comment be added to the top of this article (this wiki uses few formal "disambig" pages - see [[block]] or [[brew]] for what we need here, rather than [[pike]] or [[pool]]). All that should be here is a comment on how to use the category tag, similar to comments on the [[del]] category page. Users who want to help should find appropriate articles to add links to the [[modding guide]], which can now (as you read this) just be linked via the word "modding".--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 13:53, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
::A number of modding articles have already been moved into the Modification namespace; since it's listed as a content repository, any search should bring up those articles if a redirect doesn't already exist. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 15:14, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
::To summarize as to what should happen...
:::*[[mod]] and [[mods]] redirect to [[Modification]]
:::*[[Modification]] starts with a disambiguation block that directs users to [[Modding_guide]] or [[List_of_Mods]], if they're interested in those.
:::*[[modding]] redirects to [[Modding_guide]].
:::*[[:category:Modding]] contains subcategory [[:category:40d:Modding_reference]]
:::*[[:category:Modding_reference]] has articles about tokens and such moved to it.
:::*[[:category:Modding]] takes up all guide-like articles about how to mod various parts of the game, such as graphics sets, cheats, etc. Completed mods don't go here, only guides and reference materials.
--[[User:Carlthuringer|Carlthuringer]] 07:17, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
== Modification namespace ==

I'm gonna go ahead and create a little template box for mods (Name, version, last updated, download link, etc) and then start making pages for everything in [[Mods]]. --{{User:Syzgyn/Sig}} 20:18, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Mod

2010-03-14T06:44:21Z

Carlthuringer: Redirected page to Category:Mods

#REDIRECT [[Category:Mods]]

User talk:Carlthuringer

2010-03-14T06:41:10Z

Carlthuringer:

Welcome to this wiki! Dwarf Fortress rapidly becomes more complicated, and we're always glad to have new writers.<br>
Since you should try to follow wiki standards, and you probably don't know ours yet, we've made a list of basic guidelines. Note that this is a template, not a customized message for you.
* To tell us who you are when you talk, please sign your posts on discussion pages by typing <code><nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki></code> after your posts. This can also be inserted with the [[Image:Button sig756222.png]] button if JavaScript is enabled.
* Don't put a question mark in the title of a page. Question marks mess things up, and your page will be moved to a different name.
* When making comments on a talk page, use one more colon before each line in your comment than was used in the comment you reply to. In general, put exactly one empty line between comments by different users but do not use blank lines inside of a comment.
* Avoid making many small edits to a page. Instead, try to make one large edit. This makes the history of the page a lot easier to read.
* Don't edit the user page of another user. If you want to tell them something, add the comment to their talk page.
* If you put a comment at the bottom of a talk page with section headers, you've probably put it in a section. Putting things in the wrong sections is confusing. You can create a section!
* Generally, [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Community_Portal#We_are_doing_this.21_Let_us_do_it_right.|read and follow the rules.]] They're like a little constitution, except not boring! Really, read them.
<div align=center><div style="width: 28em; padding: 0.5em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-top: 0.5em; border: 1px solid #ccc; background: #eee; text-align: center">''"You have been processed! Go forth, now, and edit!" --[[User:Savok|Savok]]''</div></div>

== '''[[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Community_Portal#B|B]]''' is for Bold ==
Welcome. Saw your comments on [[Category talk:Modding]] and [[wizard]] discussion pages...
was led astray a long while as I looked for information on modding before I found 40d:Modding guide...
Messy, messy. Delete/merge. Furthermore, link the surviving category to 40d:Modding guide
What, you talkin' to me? ; D

You see the need, do it! Of all the topics, "modding" is clearly and literally outside vanilla DF, yet also clearly(?) intended to be part of it. Bringing those articles together would be both a challenge and a great help. I agree, this needs to be done, and is a worthy project. I'd tackle it, and certainly have done larger such "cat herding" before here, but I don't mod much. But I can give you some general pointers...

The text on Category:Modding is merely a courtesy and an explanatory footnote (or ''should'' be nothing ''more'' than that) - that page is created automatically as part of the wiki engine, to show every article that has been added to the category "modding" (simply be adding the code " <nowiki>[[Category:Modding]]</nowiki> ". ''Every'' page that fits under the loose umbrella of "modding" should have this added to it, at the bottom.

The [[List of mods]] appears to simply be a series of links to pre-fabricated, downloadable mods. Script kiddy stuff, by any other name. It needs a "how to" at the top, among other things, and maybe a comment on how to combine downloadable mods. And links.

Links... links are what make a wiki work, what lead a user from one article to another related or even more useful one.

And links are why the [[modding guide]] is tragic and almost pointless atm, because it has only 2 article links that lead to it - one from [[other weapon]] and one from [[building destroyer]], and both of those are buried and very minor - which explains why, for instance, I don't remember seeing the Modding Guide article ''ever before!'' But that's the page that should be center of "How to", and the page that others direct users (like yourself) to read. Maybe some additional search redirects, perhaps look over the ones that currently lead to the "category" or "tokens" articles and change them.

The [[template:mod}} goes above anything that fits the text in it - (almost) anything that is not vanilla DF or that changes the code as downloaded ([[cat]] and [[init.txt]] being notable exceptions). Anything with that template could be helpful.

(I think [[Token]]s, because it actually has been well-linked, also has some commentary about Modding and has had more links to it - they tend to feed off each other. A footnote-quality comment there is fine, but better to have all info centralized and linked than redundant articles that may or may not grow in parallel to each other.)

So - think about it, read all of what's there and what's linked to and from (see auto-link in left-sidebar, "What links here"!), make a plan, and tackle it logically, one step at a time. Read the above DF Wiki community guidelines. Make some notes. Change article names if you ''really'' are feeling confident. Cross link ''everything'' - that's what makes a page useful and connected. Link to vanilla DF articles as you see relevance, perhaps working in a comment, footnote or separate line toward the bottom. In short, be Bold. And your edits will bring those pages to the attention of other editors, who will make their own contributions. And we will thank you for it!

(Oh, and for the [[wizard]], you could start with that to get warmed up. Make sure to test and re-test before you post "facts". The [[verify]] template is if there is a question/challenge/concern that you want to add on a discussion page.)

(If you feel this is too big a project for you alone, and/or want to "stake your claim" to give you time to finish a multi-day project, start a discussion on the [[modding guide]] talk page and get some like-minded editors to help - see [[40d_Talk:Fortress_defense#Merging_in_other_articles_and_defining_what_this_page_should_be|this discussion]] for an example of how such grew into a complete teardown/rebuild of a similar mishmash of articles (and note that that particular article title no longer exists!). And hit my talk page if you want - I'll be around.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 15:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Main Page

2010-03-12T21:51:04Z

Carlthuringer: Modding should follow from Modding_guide, Mods are complete finished products. Also, better a plural noun than a gerund.

<h1 style="text-align: center;">The Dwarf Fortress Wiki</h1>

<p style="max-width: 48em; margin: 0 auto 0em;">
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|-
| style="width: 50%" | [[Activity zone]]s
| style="width: 50%" | [[Farming]]
|-
| style="width: 50%" | [[Building]]
| style="width: 50%" | [[Combat]]
|-
| style="width: 50%" | [[Creatures]]
| style="width: 50%" | [[:Category:Designations|Designations]]
|-
| style="width: 50%" | [[Military]]
| style="width: 50%" | [[Noble]]s
|-
| style="width: 50%" | [[Rooms]]
| style="width: 50%" | [[Skill]]s
|-
| style="width: 50%" | [[Stockpile]]s
| style="width: 50%" | [[Workshop]]s
|-
| style="width: 50%" | [[Economics]]
| style="width: 50%" | [[Mining]]
|-
| style="width: 50%" | [[Location]]
| style="width: 50%" | [[Fun]]
|}

| style="width: 50%; vertical-align: top" |

{| style="width: 100%; background: #ccf; border: 1px solid #24a; border-left-color:#79f; border-top-color:#79f; text-align: center; margin-bottom: 1em"
|+ style="color: #fff; background: #46c; border: 1px solid #24a; border-left-color:#79f; border-top-color:#79f; padding: 0.2em 0.5em" | '''Wiki articles by category'''
|-
| style="width: 50%" | [[:Category:Dwarves|Dwarves]]
| style="width: 50%" | [[:Category:World|World]]
|-
| style="width: 50%" | [[:Category:Buildings|Buildings]]
| style="width: 50%" | [[:Category:Mods|Mods]]
|-
| style="width:50%" | [[:Category:Items|Items]]
| style="width:50%" | [[:Category:Interface|Interface]]
|-
| colspan="2" | [[Special:Categories|All Categories]]
|}

{| style="width: 100%; background: #ccf; border: 1px solid #24a; border-left-color:#79f; border-top-color:#79f; text-align: center"
|+ style="color: #fff; background: #46c; border: 1px solid #24a; border-left-color:#79f; border-top-color:#79f; padding: 0.2em 0.5em" | '''Metagame editing and advice'''
|-
| [[World generation]]
|-
| [[Technical tricks]]
|-
| [[Utilities]]
|-
| [[Known bugs and issues]]
|-
| [[System requirements]]
|-
| [[Cheating]]
|-
| [[Maximizing framerate]]
|-
| [[Tilesets]]
|-
| [[Modding Guide]]
|}

|-
| colspan="2" style="vertical-align: top" |

{| style="width: 100%; background: #ddd; border: 1px solid #777; border-left-color:#bbb; border-top-color:#bbb;"
|+ style="color: #fff; background: #999; border: 1px solid #777; border-left-color:#bbb; border-top-color:#bbb; padding: 0.2em 0.5em; text-align: center" | '''Links'''
|-
! style="text-align: left; padding: 0.1em 0.5em" | Forums:
| [http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php Official Forums], [http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=19469&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a xkcd Thread], [http://www.gamingsteve.com/blab/index.php?topic=6350.0 GamingSteve Thread], [http://www.cracked.com/forums/topic/28476/dwarf-fortress Cracked Thread], [http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=106896 Penny-Arcade Thread], [http://dwarvenpassion.smfforfree3.com/index.php Dwarves with a Passion], [http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=891663 Facepunch Studios Thread], [http://forum.team17.com/showthread.php?t=30824 Team17 Forum Thread], [http://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/ Reddit], [http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2917631 Something Awful], [http://www.xspore.com/community/dwarf-fortress/ xSpore], [http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/39309975/m/943000156931/p/1 Ars Technica], [http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/42890 GamersWithJobs Thread]
|-
! style="text-align: left; padding: 0.1em 0.5em" | Blogs:
| [http://jreengusoccurring.blogspot.com/ Jreengus Occuring: A Dwarf Fortress blog], [http://dfc.smackjeeves.com/ Strike the Earth!]
|-
! style="text-align: left; padding: 0.1em 0.5em" | [[IRC|IRC Channels]]:
| [irc://irc.newnet.net/bay12games #bay12games] on newnet.net, [irc://irc.synirc.net/df #df] on synirc.net, [irc://irc.quakenet.org/DwarfFortress #DwarfFortress] on quakenet.org, [irc://irc.tellaerad.net/DF #DF] on tellaerad.net and [irc://irc.rizon.net/brofortress #brofortress] on rizon.net.
|-
! style="text-align: left; padding: 0.1em 0.5em" | Other Wikis:
| [http://www.dwarffortress.fr/wiki Le Wiki Français ], [http://dwarffortress.if.land.to/ The Japanese (日本語) Wiki ], [http://www.dfwk.ru The Russian Wiki ], [[Dwarf_Fortress_Italia| Wiki Italiano]]
|-
! style="text-align: left; padding: 0.1em 0.5em" | Useful Links:
| [http://mkv25.net/dfma/ Dwarf Fortress Map Archive], [http://dffd.wimbli.com/ Dwarf Fortress File Depot (DFFD)]
|-
|}

[[Category:Wiki]]

[[ru:Заглавная_страница]]
[[fr:Accueil]]

Category talk:Mods

2010-03-12T10:40:08Z

Carlthuringer:

I was led astray a long while as I looked for information on modding before I found [[40d:Modding guide]].

Right now we have [[Mods]] and [[Modding]] which are nearly duplicates of one another. Messy, messy. Delete/merge.

Furthermore, link the surviving category to [[40d:Modding guide]]--[[User:Carlthuringer|Carlthuringer]] 13:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
:See reply, top of [[40d Talk:Modding guide]].--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 15:34, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Cranked out this outline/draft.--[[User:Carlthuringer|Carlthuringer]] 10:40, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

== Community Guidelines ==
[[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Community_Portal#N|N]] is for Names. New pages should be singular nouns wherever applicable with few exceptions.
[[Mod]] Should probably redirect to [[Mods]] which seems to follow well with [[Creatures]], [[Skills]], [[Buildings]] as a category comprised of many similar items. [[Mod]] currently redirects to Template:Mod.

[[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Community_Portal#R|R]] is for Redundancy.
We want to try to avoid categorizing pages under [[Mods]] and [[Modding]] of course, and after looking carefully over both categories I found that there is little or none of that going on. However, I would propose that due to the nature of 99% of articles categorized under [[Modding]] that we should consider moving to the more specific (and noun-like!) [[40d:Modding_reference]] for all articles currently classified under [[Modding]]. I think this would eliminate all potential for double- or cross-categorization between the two.

I consider that [[Modding]] might then redirect naturally to [[40d:Modding_guide]], which can link to [[40d:Modding_reference]].

Then [[Mods]] will have sub-category [[40d:Modding_reference]] and also link to [[40d:Modding_guide]]

== Pages linked to [[Mods]] and [[Modding]] ==
[[Main_Page]] Links to [[Modding]]. (Note all the other categories grammatical leaning: Dwarves, World, Buildings, Modding, Items, Interface. Wouldn't the plural noun 'Mods' fit better, logically, in that table than the Gerunnd 'modding'?) Furthermore, [[Modding]] is an index of token references, which won't help new players one bit, IMHO.
It should probably link to [[Mods]].

[[40d:Civilization]]

[[User:MaxVance/Main_Glade|The Elf Forest Wiki]] Huh. Anyways, it's mostly a copy of [[Main_Page]]

[[40d:Wizard]] Linked by the Gerund form 'modding,' evidence for the redirection argument.

[[Mods]] "If you want to know how to create Mods, see [[Modding]]." Except that [[Modding]] doesnt' tell you how to create mods, so good luck, there!

[[User:Mason11987/All_Categories]] A list of all the categories.

[[User_talk:Briess]] Part of discussion suggesting a custom namespace, 'Mod' to cover all mod-related pages on the wiki. Sounds like namespace nightmare, what with the 40d namespace beginning to propogate and become standard.

== Pages linked from [[Mods]] ==
[[Modding]] and [[Mods]] link to each other as subcategories recursively. R is for Redundant, and Recursive? Which is the category and which is the subcategory?

[[40d Talk:Armor]] As [[User:Albedo]] pointed out with the mod template, this ain't about mods!

[[40d:Basilisk_mod]] Some information on a mod, but no information about acquiring/installing/setting up the mod itself.

[[40d:Cheating]] A pretty decent article about using some simple modding to make the game easier.

[[40d:Color_schemes]] I don't agree that this is modding, since it's in the realm of init changes, but whatever.

[[40d:Deserted_squad_mod]] A good example for the [[40d:Basilisk_mod|Basilisk]] page, even though it still doesn't have install files or instructions.

[[40d:Dwarf_silk]] An even better mod example, using a collapsed 'game data' field at the bottom of the article to contain the raw code for adding the silk-bearded dwarves.

[[40d:Graphics_set_repository]] A different sort of mod that I think improves usability for new players. Still, can step outside the vanilla experience and also involves some more careful text editing and therefore not for the faint of heart.

[[40d:Key_bindings]]

[[40d:Modding_guide]] The excellent Modding Guide!!!

[[40d:New_Plants]] Some decent added plant stuff.

[[40d:Wizard]] I really don't consider this a mod at all.

[[Civilization_Forge]] A good, full page for the Civilization Forge mod.

[[Creature_Modding_Gui]] Stub.

[[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Request_for_Adminship/Albedo]] This is in 'Category:Mods' for some reason. Mods, as in moderators? Don't get me wrong, I do like [[User:Albedo]] ;D.

[[List_of_mods]] Best place ever to post your mod, rather than on its own stub page, or its own page period. Put 'em all in one place.

[[Memory_hacking/v0.28.181.40d18]] I assume this is for advanced modders, people running debuggers, or developing things like LifeVis/3Dwarf.

[[Modification:Chaos_Reigns]] A pretty solid-looking mod. Title 'modification:...' inspires some consideration. vs. 'Mod:...'

[[Modification:Dracon_mod]] This is barely more than a stub with little to no information, and also no links to raw data or downloads.

[[New_Hats]] A simple little paste-this-code-here add on for your game. Great stuff, maybe worth considering a sub-category 'Addons:...' for just such small tweaks to the game.

[[New_creatures]] A few new creatures. Could take a tip from [[New_Hats]] with putting the paste-able code into <code>&ltpre&gt</code> tags.

[[New_frontier]] A total-conversion type mod that again has no downloads. Another concern: No dates, so there's no telling without looking at the history whether progress is recent, or stagnant.

[[Orc]] Says Orcs are sometimes modded into games, but not listed as a race in this Wiki. So why do they have a page, a near-stub, even?

[[Speech_mods]] A guide for modifying the speech that characters use. A good candidate for linking from the [[40d:Modding_Guide]].

[[Tileset_repository]] Well... It's filed under mods, but changing tilesets is pretty easy and since DF already comes with a few tilesets in Vanilla form, is it really that much of a mod? Most of them simply try to nice-up the appearance of walls and objects without making other features or letters look funky in the process.

[[User:Booken]] Keeping a Wyrm addon in a userpage. Formatted nicely similar to [[40d:Dwarf_silk]].

[[User:Exponent/Mineral_Mod]] An incomplete mineral overhaul. Has paste-able code, though, which I approve of.

[[User:Sphr/gfx_set]] An absolutely incredible resource for a Graphics set. Other sets ought to have 1/10 this much information, which is pretty lacking in the [[40d:Graphics_set_repository]]

Category talk:Mods

2010-03-12T10:38:14Z

Carlthuringer:

I was led astray a long while as I looked for information on modding before I found [[40d:Modding guide]].

Right now we have [[Mods]] and [[Modding]] which are nearly duplicates of one another. Messy, messy. Delete/merge.

Furthermore, link the surviving category to [[40d:Modding guide]]--[[User:Carlthuringer|Carlthuringer]] 13:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
:See reply, top of [[40d Talk:Modding guide]].--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 15:34, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

== Community Guidelines ==
[[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Community_Portal#N|N]] is for Names. New pages should be singular nouns wherever applicable with few exceptions.
[[Mod]] Should probably redirect to [[Mods]] which seems to follow well with [[Creatures]], [[Skills]], [[Buildings]] as a category comprised of many similar items. [[Mod]] currently redirects to Template:Mod.

[[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Community_Portal#R|R]] is for Redundancy.
We want to try to avoid categorizing pages under [[Mods]] and [[Modding]] of course, and after looking carefully over both categories I found that there is little or none of that going on. However, I would propose that due to the nature of 99% of articles categorized under [[Modding]] that we should consider moving to the more specific (and noun-like!) [[40d:Modding_reference]] for all articles currently classified under [[Modding]]. I think this would eliminate all potential for double- or cross-categorization between the two.

I consider that [[Modding]] might then redirect naturally to [[40d:Modding_guide]], which can link to [[40d:Modding_reference]].

Then [[Mods]] will have sub-category [[40d:Modding_reference]] and also link to [[40d:Modding_guide]]

== Pages linked to [[Mods]] and [[Modding]] ==
[[Main_Page]] Links to [[Modding]]. (Note all the other categories grammatical leaning: Dwarves, World, Buildings, Modding, Items, Interface. Wouldn't the plural noun 'Mods' fit better, logically, in that table than the Gerunnd 'modding'?) Furthermore, [[Modding]] is an index of token references, which won't help new players one bit, IMHO.
It should probably link to [[Mods]].

[[40d:Civilization]]

[[User:MaxVance/Main_Glade|The Elf Forest Wiki]] Huh. Anyways, it's mostly a copy of [[Main_Page]]

[[40d:Wizard]] Linked by the Gerund form 'modding,' evidence for the redirection argument.

[[Mods]] "If you want to know how to create Mods, see [[Modding]]." Except that [[Modding]] doesnt' tell you how to create mods, so good luck, there!

[[User:Mason11987/All_Categories]] A list of all the categories.

[[User_talk:Briess]] Part of discussion suggesting a custom namespace, 'Mod' to cover all mod-related pages on the wiki. Sounds like namespace nightmare, what with the 40d namespace beginning to propogate and become standard.

== Pages linked from [[Mods]] ==
[[Modding]] and [[Mods]] link to each other as subcategories recursively. R is for Redundant, and Recursive? Which is the category and which is the subcategory?

[[40d Talk:Armor]] As [[User:Albedo]] pointed out with the mod template, this ain't about mods!

[[40d:Basilisk_mod]] Some information on a mod, but no information about acquiring/installing/setting up the mod itself.

[[40d:Cheating]] A pretty decent article about using some simple modding to make the game easier.

[[40d:Color_schemes]] I don't agree that this is modding, since it's in the realm of init changes, but whatever.

[[40d:Deserted_squad_mod]] A good example for the [[40d:Basilisk_mod|Basilisk]] page, even though it still doesn't have install files or instructions.

[[40d:Dwarf_silk]] An even better mod example, using a collapsed 'game data' field at the bottom of the article to contain the raw code for adding the silk-bearded dwarves.

[[40d:Graphics_set_repository]] A different sort of mod that I think improves usability for new players. Still, can step outside the vanilla experience and also involves some more careful text editing and therefore not for the faint of heart.

[[40d:Key_bindings]]

[[40d:Modding_guide]] The excellent Modding Guide!!!

[[40d:New_Plants]] Some decent added plant stuff.

[[40d:Wizard]] I really don't consider this a mod at all.

[[Civilization_Forge]] A good, full page for the Civilization Forge mod.

[[Creature_Modding_Gui]] Stub.

[[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Request_for_Adminship/Albedo]] This is in 'Category:Mods' for some reason. Mods, as in moderators? Don't get me wrong, I do like [[User:Albedo]] ;D.

[[List_of_mods]] Best place ever to post your mod, rather than on its own stub page, or its own page period. Put 'em all in one place.

[[Memory_hacking/v0.28.181.40d18]] I assume this is for advanced modders, people running debuggers, or developing things like LifeVis/3Dwarf.

[[Modification:Chaos_Reigns]] A pretty solid-looking mod. Title 'modification:...' inspires some consideration. vs. 'Mod:...'

[[Modification:Dracon_mod]] This is barely more than a stub with little to no information, and also no links to raw data or downloads.

[[New_Hats]] A simple little paste-this-code-here add on for your game. Great stuff, maybe worth considering a sub-category 'Addons:...' for just such small tweaks to the game.

[[New_creatures]] A few new creatures. Could take a tip from [[New_Hats]] with putting the paste-able code into <code>&ltpre&gt</code> tags.

[[New_frontier]] A total-conversion type mod that again has no downloads. Another concern: No dates, so there's no telling without looking at the history whether progress is recent, or stagnant.

[[Orc]] Says Orcs are sometimes modded into games, but not listed as a race in this Wiki. So why do they have a page, a near-stub, even?

[[Speech_mods]] A guide for modifying the speech that characters use. A good candidate for linking from the [[40d:Modding_Guide]].

[[Tileset_repository]] Well... It's filed under mods, but changing tilesets is pretty easy and since DF already comes with a few tilesets in Vanilla form, is it really that much of a mod? Most of them simply try to nice-up the appearance of walls and objects without making other features or letters look funky in the process.

[[User:Booken]] Keeping a Wyrm addon in a userpage. Formatted nicely similar to [[40d:Dwarf_silk]].

[[User:Exponent/Mineral_Mod]] An incomplete mineral overhaul. Has paste-able code, though, which I approve of.

[[User:Sphr/gfx_set]] An absolutely incredible resource for a Graphics set. Other sets ought to have 1/10 this much information, which is pretty lacking in the [[40d:Graphics_set_repository]]

40d Talk:Wizard

2010-03-12T07:42:42Z

Carlthuringer: Forgot signature

40d Talk:Wizard

2010-03-12T07:40:41Z

Carlthuringer:

Category talk:Modding

2010-03-12T06:09:02Z

Carlthuringer:

40d Talk:Modding guide

2010-03-12T06:03:01Z

Carlthuringer:

A user has made these comment on [[Category talk:Modding]] and [[Category talk:Mods]] discussion pages (''two'' categories?!...), and I thought it best to reply here, where users interested in modding might(?) find it...

I was led astray a long while as I looked for information on modding before
I found 40d:Modding guide...
Messy, messy. Delete/merge. Furthermore, link the surviving category to 40d:Modding guide
What, you talkin' to me? ; D

You see the need, do it! Of all the topics, "modding" is clearly and literally outside vanilla DF, yet also clearly(?) intended to be part of it. Bringing those articles together would be both a challenge and a great help. I agree, this needs to be done, and is a worthy project. I'd tackle it, and certainly have done larger such "cat herding" before here, but I don't mod much. But I can give you some general pointers...

The text on the [[Modding|Category:Modding]] page (which cannot be directly linked, btw, and so '''must''' have a redirect!) is merely a courtesy and an explanatory footnote (or ''should'' be nothing ''more'' than that) - that page is created automatically as part of the wiki engine, to show every article that has been added to the category "modding" (simply be adding the code " <nowiki>[[Category:Modding]]</nowiki> ". ''Every'' page that fits under the loose umbrella of "modding" should have this added to it, at the bottom. (But, ''I think'', there should only be '''one''' category, not two, neh?!)

The [[List of mods]] appears to simply be a series of links to pre-fabricated, downloadable mods. Script kiddy stuff, by any other name. It needs a "how to" at the top, among other things, and maybe a comment on how to combine downloadable mods. And links.

Links... links are what make a wiki work, what lead a user from one article to another related or even more useful one.

And links are why this ''[[modding guide]]'' is (currently) tragic and almost completely pointless atm, because it has only 2 article links that lead to it - one from [[other weapon]] and one from [[building destroyer]], and both of those are buried and very minor - which explains why, for instance, I sure don't remember seeing the Modding Guide article ''ever before!'' But this is the article that should be center of "How to", and the page that all others direct users (like the one above) to read. Maybe some additional search redirects, perhaps look over the redirects that currently lead to the "category" or "tokens" articles and change them.

The [[template:mod]] goes above anything that fits the text in it - (almost) anything that is not vanilla DF or that changes the code as downloaded ([[cat]] and [[init.txt]] being notable exceptions). Anything with that template could be helpful.

(I think [[Token]]s, because it actually has been well-linked, also has some commentary about Modding and has had more links to it - they tend to feed off each other. A footnote-quality comment there is fine, but better to have all info centralized and linked than redundant articles that may or may not grow in parallel to each other.)

So - think about it, read all of what's there and what's linked to and from (see auto-link in left-sidebar, "What links here"!), make a plan, and tackle it logically, one step at a time. Read the above DF Wiki community guidelines. Make some notes. Figure out what's going on with those two different categories, "mod" and "modding". Change article names if you ''really'' are feeling confident. Cross link ''everything'' - that's what makes a page useful and connected. Link to vanilla DF articles as you see relevance, perhaps working in a comment, footnote or separate line toward the bottom. In short, be [[Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Community_Portal#B|Bold]]. And your edits will bring those pages to the attention of other editors, who will make their own contributions. And we will thank you for it!

(If you feel this is too big a project for "you" alone, and/or want to "stake your claim" to give you time to finish a multi-day project, continue this discussion and get some like-minded editors to help - see [[40d_Talk:Fortress_defense#Merging_in_other_articles_and_defining_what_this_page_should_be|this discussion]] for an example of how such grew into a complete teardown/rebuild of a similar mishmash of articles (and note that that particular article title no longer exists!). And hit my talk page if you want help/advice/sympathy with formatting, organization or miscellaneous "how to" - I'll be around.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 15:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

:I brought up the issue when I picked, at random, [[Wizard]] which was listed for verification. Articles in its family have their own set o fproblems, but I had a pretty hard time figuring out how, exactly, to go about modding them into the game and still haven't satisfactorily tested the wizards I made.
:I'd like to cast a net in here for experienced modders interested in organizing and combining the [[Mods|Category:Mods]] and [[Modding|Category:Modding]] pages to better assist newbies and experienced players in learning more about adding more [[Fun]] to their game. I think it's appropriate to ask interested parties to comment in [[Mods|Category:Mods]] for further discussion.--[[User:Carlthuringer|Carlthuringer]] 06:03, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

== Creating separate .txt file for new creatures ==

This didn't work well for me. I added a new playable civ (Klackon) to the entity_default file like this page said, and the species (Klackon) in that new civ was located in a new .txt file. Dwarves still showed up, but never my civ. I kept reducing the number of allowable dwarf civs thinking they were just competing for selection, culminating in getting rid of them entirely, ending up in developing a world that had humans and elves only! Oops.

Finally, I added my Klackon creature to the end of the creature_standard file instead of only having them in the creature_klackon.txt file.. Voila! I now have dwarf civs and klackon civs in the same world and actually get a choice between them when I make a fort.

It's very possible that I just messed up something basic when I made the new .txt file to contain the creature definition, but I could still point out that making a new, separate .txt file certainly didn't make things simpler for me, so it's not such great advice for budding modders.

Everything else worked fine though, so thanks, still!
:Have to be sure to add the text files name ( "creature_klackon" without the parenthesis, or brackets) and the line [OBJECT:CREATURE] to tell the game its a creature file. --[[User:Darkone|Darkone]] 18:17, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

== Bad info? ==

So someone added a big notice at the top that suggests there's a fair bit of out-of-date text.. but no mention of what that may be, no links to forum posts, et cetera. Someone want to clue me in on just what, exactly, is no longer relevant? --[[User:Nunix|Nunix]] 15:14, 28 February 2008 (EST)
:I think it's safe to take off the version warning but the examples need to be tested. It would probably be easier to manage if this article was split into smaller, in depth, modding guides. --[[User:Hex Decimal|Hex Decimal]] 23:07, 28 February 2008 (EST)

I would love to see a little more descriptive way of handling the raw files as opposed to simply a slew of examples on things to mod. Perhaps I'm just not spending enough time "tinkering", but it seems that the current article is set up rather poorly. Is that just me? --[[User:Borgin|Borgin]]
[EDIT]
I didn't realize there were complete lists of tokens. Silly me; that sure makes things easier. 1:37, 15 May 2008 (CST)

== Arachnid Tutorial ==

<s>Minor nitpick here, but it apears he forgot to add :5FINGERS:</s> tested it and it works, added it to wiki. as one of its body tags to go with its hands. Also, as a nice additional tutorial, maybe add in this little bit of code to show people how to add joints? --[[User:Darkone|Darkone]] 18:39, 2 May 2008 (EDT)<pre>
[BODY:ARACHNID_JOINTS]
[BP:RUA_J:right shoulder][CON:RUA][JOINT][SMALL][INTERNAL][RIGHT]
[BP:LUA_J:left shoulder][CON:LUA][JOINT][SMALL][INTERNAL][LEFT]
[BP:RLA_J:right elbow][CON:RLA][JOINT][SMALL][INTERNAL][RIGHT]
[BP:LLA_J:left elbow][CON:LLA][JOINT][SMALL][INTERNAL][LEFT]
[BP:RH_J:right wrist][CON:RH][JOINT][SMALL][INTERNAL][RIGHT]
[BP:LH_J:left wrist][CON:LH][JOINT][SMALL][INTERNAL][LEFT]
</pre>

== Dwarven Flight ==

If I add the line [FLIER] to my dwarven civilisation would anything interesting happen? --[[User:AlexFili|AlexFili]] 05:30, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

:No, dwarves will just spam "Task cancelled: dangerous terrain". They will have problems doing anything. --[[User:Someone-else|Someone-else]] 08:09, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

::Flight pathing is even broken for invaders. What a shame! Swimmers can have problems too, though not ''that'' bad. --[[User:Navian|Navian]] 16:40, 21 November 2008 (EST)

== Fireproof Trees? ==

Is there any means to create a wood material (and corrosponding trees to harvest for it) which will not burn, or at least won't ignite from contact with magma? --[[User:Rakankou|Rakankou]] 00:47, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
:I am no expert but, what if you added the [FIRE_IMMUNE] tag to trees. Do not know if that will work, or if thats even the right tag. [[User:Magikarcher|Magikarcher]] 02:12, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
::[FIREIMMUNE] doesn't seem to work for making a fire safe wood. I think it's a creature token, anyway, so it makes sense that it wouldn't work for materials. --[[User:Rakankou|Rakankou]] 12:27, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
::: It's a creature token so it won't work. However, taken from Adamantine's entry (it is magma-proof):
::::[SPEC_HEAT:7500]
::::[MELTING_POINT:25000]
::::[BOILING_POINT:50000]
:::Hopefully that helps. --[[User:Borgin|Borgin]] 20:11, 12 August 2008
IGNITE_POINT is a matgloss token. [[User:Random832|Random832]] 17:01, 21 November 2008 (EST)

== .txt ==

My word processer won't let me save .txts. Does that matter?
:Yes. A word processor program (like anything from Microsoft Office) will generate all sorts of gibberish in addition to your text. [[User:HeWhoIsPale|HeWhoIsPale]] 11:22, 5 August 2008 (EDT)
::Just use notepad, assuming you have it. --[[User:Arkenstone|Arkenstone]]

== Adventure mode? ==

Do I have to add the tag adventure tier to the dark elves to make them playable in adventure mode? [[User:Yaddy1|Yaddy1]] 16:13, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

Yup. --[[User:Navian|Navian]] 16:40, 21 November 2008 (EST)

== Modded creatures not showing? ==

I tried making my own races for a test. Spartans, copied from entity_info of dwarves and creature_Standard info from Humans and small bit from Titans.
Persians, Like goblins but weaker and stupider.
after running 4 different regions with different settings, only Goblins, Dwarves and Humans showed up. What am I doing wrong? There is not a single trace of them even existing at the legends screen.
I really want to kick persians with spartans instead of biting goblins with dwarves.
[[User:Skibiliano|Skibiliano]] 14:22, 27 August 2008 (EDT)

:The problem probably lies in the titan tags. In any case, backing up the original raws and just editing them would be easier to test. --[[User:Navian|Navian]] 16:40, 21 November 2008 (EST)

:Did you get the filenames and [OBJECT] tags at the top? Those are easy to miss. I'd say make them copies of dwarves and goblins, respectively - once worlds generate with them, tweak them to be like you want. Also, you can temporarily move entity_default.txt to another dir to make it easier to debug. [[User:Darekun|Darekun]] 11:39, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

== "Random" civ selection with more than one playable civ ==

In the main text on this page (and I swear in a fair few other places, but I can't find them for some reason), it notes that if you have the [CIV_CONTROLLABLE] token on more than one entity it will randomly select from the playable civs when you embark. Well, yes, it's random in the sense that it initially selects a random group for your fortress to be an offshoot of, but you can easily select the desired species of your fort inhabitants by manually picking the appropriate group from the embark screen, either using legends mode to work out which group is which species, or by checking the "nearby civilizations" section and seeing which species is at the top (it seems that your species will always be at the top of the list). I'm going to adjust the "random selection" note to say you can choose your civilization, but I'm not sure if a whole mini-tutorial on picking your civ really belongs in the modding guide, or whether it should go somewhere else. Comments? --[[User:Quil|Quil]] 12:10, 16 November 2008 (EST)

:Just the one line about how the race you'll be playing will be at the top of the 'neighbours' list wouldn't be that bad, wouldn't it? No tutorial required, anyway. Maybe we could divide the topic later, but I think this is an relevant as anything, considering how much depth can be added to the game this way. --[[User:Navian|Navian]] 18:55, 16 November 2008 (EST)

::Okay, added a paragraph on picking your species. I think I covered all the pertinent points fairly succinctly. As a random aside, while the species I added is quite hardy and long-lived, so they've never been wiped out, I'm not sure if the game will care if some of the playable species die out. While in the vanilla game with the default settings it's impossible to kill off the dwarves, since the game will reject it due to having no playable civs, with additional playable races it may just be possible to have your extra species (or the dwarves) all die out and be unplayable in an otherwise acceptable map.--[[User:Quil|Quil]] 09:44, 17 November 2008 (EST)

:::I confirmed that. My aquatic playable civ didn't appear on a map without their starting biome, and my single gender race was wiped out by humans on the next go, leaving only the other playable each time. --[[User:Navian|Navian]] 16:40, 21 November 2008 (EST)

== Rock Crystals ==

How would I go about modding the game to either allow me to import rough rock crystals or allowing me to make crystal glass from cut rock crystals?--[[User:Mjo625|Mjo625]] 07:37, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Or add a reaction that will change rock crystals into rough rock crystals. I added

[REACTION:ROUGH ROCK CRYSTAL]
[NAME:Melt Rock Crystal]
[SMELTER]
[REAGENT:1:SMALLGEM:NO_SUBTYPE:STONE:ROCK_CRYSTAL]
[PRODUCT:100:1:ROUGH:NO_SUBTYPE:ROCK_CRYSTAL]
[FUEL]

to reaction_standard but it doesn't seem to be working. The dwarf takes the rough crystal and charcoal to the smelter, works for a while but doesn't produce anything.--[[User:Mjo625|Mjo625]] 10:22, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

:If they take the reagents and don't produce a product, that means there's an error in the [PRODUCT] tag. In this case, you're missing a term - ROCK_CRYSTAL is a matgloss with no material token. I'd guess the correct version would be [PRODUCT:100:1:ROUGH:NO_SUBTYPE:STONE:ROCK_CRYSTAL].
:It looks like imports are rather hardcoded, so no importing it; you could add a creature that drops it via [ITEMCORPSE], but smelter reactions are probably the way to go. [[User:Darekun|Darekun]] 11:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

== adding a programming emphasis ==

Hi, I am interested in modding and am a programmer by profession.
I think it would be nice to approach the modding guide the same way as any programming language guide.
It may be that not a lot of people who are programmers are coming to do Modding in DF but that doesn't mean they couldn't benefit greatly from some basic programming theory and knowledge. In fact, it was modding old-school rogue games for BBS systems that actually introduced me to real programming...
I hope any edits I make meet with your approval.
I also hope maybe we can start a plain-speech syntax guide for the mod files and a glossary of terms for all the hard-coded tags.
I must admit that at this stage, going through the default files, I am a bit overwhelmed with the variety and have trouble knowing which tags/flags/tokens correspond to a hard-coded concept and which ones are simply built from other tags.
The entity tags also have tokens whose importance I cannot yet determine.
At these times, I wish I just had a simple glossary to refer to!
So my request is that the wiki could have some sort of glossary/index for all these terms similar to the way creatures are organized.
For an example of a code dictionary, please see: http://www.adobe.com/support/flash/action_scripts/actionscript_dictionary/
(I know the terms are a bit esoteric for non-programmers, like bitwise operators appear at the top of the list... but the concept is simple--and df modding has no operators, only keywords)

If there's anything over at bay12 like this, please let me know. I looked but couldn't find anything. Consensus seemed to be that it belonged on this wiki.

Well, I will try to do this myself unless there are serious objections, but since I have a full-time job, I would love it if others were to participate!
--[[User:Jpwrunyan|Jpwrunyan]] 02:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== Healing Mods? ==

Is it possible to mod body parts that do not normally heal (like the spine) to heal like any other broken limb? If so, that should probably be here.--[[User:Zipdog|Zipdog]] 03:39, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

:My understanding is that body parts that have the [NERVOUS] token don't heal, while most other body parts do. If you want spines and necks to heal, then you should just need to go into body_default.txt and remove the [NERVOUS] tokens from the SPINE and NECK body parts. I haven't tested removing the [NERVOUS] tokens to make sure that 1) nothing breaks and 2) necks and spines heal, but if someone else has please say so. --[[User:Ko|Ko]] 04:07, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

::This is covered under [[Cheating]] --[[User:OneRaven|OneRaven]] 20:09, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

== Making Coke from Other Materials ==

So rather than keep re-rolling maps before I found a small map with both adamantine and fuel/magma, I decided I'd just mod in a reaction to change gneiss or graphite or something into coke.

What I did was copy the entry under "smelt lignite into coke" from matgloss_reactions.txt and then changed all the "lignite" into "gneiss". However, it didn't work. There's no option at the smelter to create coke from gneiss. Is there something else I need to do? [[User:Lymojo|Lymojo]] 18:53, 15 May 2009 (UTC)Lymojo

:I believe that gneiss uses the "METAMORPHIC" subtype tag--whereas lignite does not have a subtype specified--so in the reaction.txt (mine's called reaction_standard, maybe because I'm using the Mac version) you have to change '''[REAGENT:1:STONE:NO_SUBTYPE:STONE:LIGNITE]''' to '''[REAGENT:1:STONE:METAMORPHIC:STONE:GNEISS]'''. Also: it appears that only stone in the "layer" and "soil" matglosses have defined subtypes, so you will always have to check their subtypes if you want to use them in reactions; minerals and ores, on the other hand, should work with "NO_SUBTYPE".[[User:Ohsottovoce|Ohsottovoce]] 16:43, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

== Magma-safe Mechanism Mod? ==
While I know this wiki isn't an FAQ-guide, I think it would be helpful for those poor noobs who can never find both Bauxite and magma/rivers in the same place. I can list the mod to give Iron the "any" property of adamantine, but I don't know specifically how to make Iron available for mechanisms otherwise.

:: To give Iron the "any" property of adamantine you need to (close Dwarf Fortress and) open your "...[Dwarf fortress]\raw\objects" folder, and open "matgloss_metal.txt". Lucky for you, Iron is the top most item and all you have to do is add "[ANY_USE]" (without quotation marks) to the end of the "[WEAPON][WEAPON_RANGED][AMMO][DIGGER][ARMOR][ANVIL]" string, save the file enjoy!

I didn't add this yet because I want to see if anyone else feels this should be added here before I do so on my own.
[[User:Kenji 03|Kenji 03]] 10:11, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

== Making races ==
Anyone ever tried making Centaurs and Merpeople races? Is there another page that this would better fit? Possibly some forums. Do they work differently from the other races? I'm sure someone has done something like this so I don't have to work or read much, making characteristics and such. I haven't gone anywhere near a large body of water so I don't know what kind of an environment it is underwater, though I guess it's a bit like flying. Building structures underwater might be impossible.(currently anyway) I'm thinking of structures made out of coral or fish bones or whatever is under the sea.--[[User:Seaneat|Seaneat]] 23:34, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
:It isn't possible to make an underwater civ playable in Fortress mode - nothing can be constructed in the water, and I seem to recall that everyone will constantly cancel their tasks due to Dangerous Terrain. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 23:53, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Category talk:Mods

2010-03-11T13:25:46Z

Carlthuringer: Created page with 'I was led astray a long while as I looked for information on modding before I found 40d:Modding guide. Right now we have Mods and Modding which are nearly duplicate…'

Category talk:Modding

2010-03-11T13:25:12Z

Carlthuringer:

Category talk:Modding

2010-03-11T13:23:08Z

Carlthuringer: Created page with 'I was led astray a long while as I looked for information on modding before I found 40d:Modding guide. Right now we have Category:Mods and Category:Modding which ar…'

I was led astray a long while as I looked for information on modding before I found [[40d:Modding guide]].

Right now we have [[Category:Mods]] and [[Category:Modding]] which are nearly duplicates of one another. Messy, messy. Delete/merge.

Furthermore, link the surviving category to [[40d:Modding guide]]
--[[User:Carlthuringer|Carlthuringer]] 13:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

40d Talk:Wizard

2010-03-11T11:57:34Z

Carlthuringer:

40d Talk:Computing

2010-03-09T10:07:16Z

Carlthuringer: /* This is either a very good or a very bad idea. */

I created this page because I think it's a very interesting part of the game for advanced players. I'm not at all familiar with creating wiki pages, so if someone else who was familiar with the concepts could write a section or two themselves, that would be grand. Right now I think it's been proven possible to create logical input and output gates using fluid dynamics, axles and gears, and even the movements of dwarves utilizing pressure plates.

It was on the 4th of Galena 1097 that the Fortress 'The Net of Skies' became self-aware. Panicked mechanics attempted to disengage the mechanisms, but the fortress interpreted this as an attack and designated all Dwarves as hostile... --[[User:WyldKarde|WyldKarde]] 13:17, 23 November 2007 (EST)

:A suggested component: The one-use lever.

ó _X_ ___ / = ramp X = door
#" ¯ /### " = bridge
#########

:The lever has a Pull The Lever repeat job on it. The door only opens when access is required. Upon being pulled, the lever opens the bridge and drops the dwarf that pulled it. -- [[User:Zaratustra|Zaratustra]] 14:56, 23 November 2007 (EST)
:Problem detected: the lever doesn't obstruct, so the dwarf can be left hanging on the lever's tile.

I think we should strive to include an example of an NAND gate and/or a NOR gate for each style since that's the bare minimum for operation.--[[User:AlBorland|AlBorland]] 22:09, 23 November 2007 (EST)

== Machine logic ==

The machine logic gates as they stand are incomplete. The inputs are levers, but the outputs are machine components. In order to connect a machine logic gate to another gate, the machine signal needs to be converted back into a lever signal. The only way I can see to do that is with a water tank, a pump, and a pressure plate. --[[User:Peristarkawan|Peristarkawan]] 12:38, 28 November 2007 (EST)

== Anthills ==

Kudos to whoever mods ants to be trainable for borg machines... Hex anyone? :D [[User:N35t0r|N35t0r]] 20:28, 8 December 2007 (EST)
: This would make that person my favoritest ever. --[[User:Geofferic|Geofferic]] 01:36, 9 December 2007 (EST)
: Agreed. [[User:Madmadmadmage|Madmadmadmage]] 15:13, 9 December 2007 (EST)
:More specifically, Langton's ant...{{user:yrael/sig|on that note, two words: dwarf bread.|DATE=13:00, 12 May 2008 (EDT)}}

== Fluid logic gates ==

Link to original information is at [[User:Madmadmadmage/Logic_Gates]]. Moved to clean up page.

Have you tested these at all? I translated your multi-level NOT gate into a form I could understand better after designing some gates myself, and looked at it. It doesn't look to me like it would work at all - First, water flows diagonally, so the water would just flow around the floodgate. Second, if water didn't flow diagonally, and you opened the floodgate because of an input signal, water from the reservoir would then hold the floodgate open by covering the pressure plate even if you shut off the input signal. You'd also need to do something other than just have the drain always open or you might not even trigger the pressure plate because it's draining too fast. --[[User:SL|SL]] 19:17, 23 December 2007 (EST)

No, I did not test any of these. I forgot that water flows around corners; I usually work with straight passages and put my gates in places where it doesn't matter. I'll fix that. As for draining water, you're correct on one point: the water would drain off too fast to trigger the plates. It would drain out to one, so the part about it not draining out isn't a problem. The draining-too-fast problem can also be solved: set the plate to activate on any depth-two water. That would mean it would take a tiny bit longer to drain (although not much), but it would also make it open if any water at all were coming to the input. Additionally, minimizing delays would be very, very useful. Remember, these don't have to be all separated like I have them. You could design these with everything compressed into three-long channels (the minimum length of a NAND gate plus an input), which would greatly optimize performance. Maybe using something like an aquifer for the water source would also help. I'll have to build a fortress specifically to test fluid gates (translate as: dig through aquifer). Give me a few weeks. [[User:Madmadmadmage|Madmadmadmage]] 02:14, 27 December 2007 (EST)

I've finished my own logic gates now - designed, built, and tested them all. They transfer signals between gates using mechanisms rather than water flow, but use water internally for processing logic. In addition to the standard gates (NOT, AND, OR, XOR, NAND, NOR), I've also made repeaters (repeatedly toggle two output signals) and memory gates (one input signal sets the gate's output to ON, the other input signal resets it to OFF - this is useful to replace one-use pressure plates with resettable versions). They only need to be built on top of a murky pool (with water in it), or an aquifer, brook, stream, river, dwarf-made cistern, whatever, and require power for one or two pumps each. I've posted them here [[User:SL/Logic_Gates]] for now, with all the information needed to build and use them, and advice on doing so. --[[User:SL|SL]] 13:30, 4 January 2008 (EST)

These look really good to me. Since I rarely use screw pumps, I never even thought of using using them. They're slower to build than simple channels, but they're faster, more efficient, and far more predictable. Good idea. Secondarily, I'm moving my stuff to another page to make everything neater. Links to [[User:Madmadmadmage/Logic_Gates]] here and at the top of the section. [[User:Madmadmadmage|Madmadmadmage]] 20:19, 4 January 2008 (EST)

== Practical applications ==

::'''One-way door'''
Hi! I'm new here and I am not sure where to put this, but I thought that it may be helpful, and it could use some refinement, and I couldn't find it anywhere else...

I noticed when trying to stop my civilians from having fun that if I locked the door whenever a dwarf was about to escape that they would find something else to do and give up on clearing that trap... While the dwarves outside generally just mill about waiting for the doors to open on account of having nothing else to do...

So I made a door which closes whenever a dwarf walks up to it from one side, and has a lever to keep it open regardless...
:The one-way door:
# - wall
D - door
R - bottom of ramp
-> - screw pump (west to east)
<- - east to west
_ - open space
o - vertical axle
W - unlimited water supply

1 - door connected to plate 1
2 - lever connected to door 2
3 - pressure plates connected to door 3, triggered by friendly dwarves(weight6)
---------------------------
################
2 D3333333331 D
D3333333331 D
################

:This is my current mechanism(lowest ground to highest ground):

1 - pressure plate connected to doors 1, triggered by water depth 0-2
2 - door connected to lever 2
3 - door connected to pressure plates 3
---------------------------
#######
# R####
# #####
# #
#######
---------------------------
#######___
## 123<-__
###D###___ ####
## <-_# <-_W
###D### ####
---------------------------
#######
### o#
#######
##_->
#######
---------------------------

:it could probably be compressed into something more like this:
---------------------------
############
# 132<-_<-_W
############
---------------------------
############
#_-> o _o #
############

:I have two requests, firstly, could this please be formatted and moved to somewhere good. And also, would someone please calculate how far a dwarven acrobat can travel before this will trigger, I have plates about 10 deep and some still get through...

:Be advised that if anything is in the door when it is triggered it will remain open, to reset it the water must be removed from plate 1, this can be done by toggling lever 2 or persuading the dwarves to get off the plates 3...
[[User:RAM|RAM]] 04:33, 1 March 2009 (EST)

::I'm not too keen on attempting to read your diagram, so here's what I would do to create a door which closes when a dwarf steps near it but stays constantly open when a lever is set.
::[[Image:Onewaydoor.PNG]]
::Do tell me if you build it or need more details, optionally through #bay12games! --[[User:Zort|Zort]] 20:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

::'''Animal Logic'''
:::I think that a simpler method of one-way door could be used in an animal logic system:
---------------------------
#<#
##D##
+DPD+
#####
---------------------------
Two of the doors are connected to other parts of the machine; the third is is directly linked to the pressure plate in the middle so that it closes when the animal is in the center, and leads to outside. When the entry door opens, the animal walks in seeking the exit, which closes before it get there. The animal then has nowhere to go but out the next door, but only after that door is opened. [[Special:Contributions/71.194.101.232|71.194.101.232]] 02:37, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

== Base 8? ==
It says in '''Fluid Logic''', "Fluid logic allows for computing in up to base 8." How does this work? Pressure plates cannot be made to distinguish between the 8 different water levels... Of course, you could use many counters in such a way as to simulate base 8, but base 2 would be more natural. --[[User:Zort|Zort]] 20:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
:Pressure plates can distinguish between different levels, and can be set to go off at a range between any two numbers. They can also determine the difference between water and magma. It is at the bottom of the trigger menu. i2amroy 22:48, 11 May 2009
::Exactly. They can detect a range between two given numbers, but, if a plate is set to 0-4, it cannot distinguish between 5, 6, or 7, levels of water. --[[User:Zort|Zort]] 12:20, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
:::One way that computing in base eight could be possible would be to have a pressure plate that triggered at 7-7 water and whenever you were going to 'add' something, you add a certain number of water 1/7's to that pressure plate. Then, whenever the pressure plate had 7/7 water, it would trigger the pump once, drawing out one 7/7 block of water. This could then activate another pressure plate that would add one 1/7 block of water to another pressure plate. This then means that each 1/7 of water in the second pressure area equals seven 1/7 blocks of water in the first. This allows adding in base eight. Highly complicated, but it still works. i2amroy 7:56 (MST), May 12 2009
::::Er, do you mean this:
::::[[Image:Prototypememory.PNG]]
::::Or do you mean a row of 8 pressure plates, each set to 1-1 (or some other level if I haven't thought about it enough)? This row of plates I would personally consider to be binary, I suppose it doesn't matter. Complexity is no obstacle for Dwarfputing. [[User:Zort|Zort]] 22:00, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
::::Even with the adding-1/7-water example you'll stay binary. While it's an interesting way to create an special counter, you'll be unable to read numbers other than 8,8^2,8^3,... You'll stick to the binary information 8/NOT 8. Additionally evaporation and the fact that you can't move 1/7 water away will make it somehow impossible, like everything else that works with ammounts of water somehow. --[[User:Kami|Kami]] 09:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

== A practical use for borg logic ==

*I think that you could easily use borg logic in a (living) fortress to make a randomly changing labyrinth. Have dozens of plates strewed across the floor of your main feast hall; each is connected to a 'memory' switch that does something random in the labyrinth, and/or clears a different switch. Memory switches are very easily constructed should you have a chasm, where you can use gravity instead of a pump; said chasm is also often useful in populating said chasm with dangerous creatures. If you're clever enough to be able to build a 'clear all' switch, you can eventually make it so that the labyrinth inhabitants themselves are doing the computations for you! (something that's necessary if you want it to work in adventurer mode!)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::--[[User:Arkenstone|Arkenstone]] 12:50, 9 August 2009 (EST)

== Water Clock Questions ==

I was thinking about creating a water clock for my fort so that I would not get surprised by the seasons every time. However, there are a few items that might pose a bit of a problem for me here (not the least of which is the fact that this would be my first attempt at water logic) so I thought I would ask around and see if anyone knew some answers that might help me out.

First, is the rate of water evaporation constant, or random? If it’s random, I’m not sure this would work. I’m pretty sure I would need a constant value for the rate at which my various reservoirs would fill up.

Second, does anyone know the number of steps in a season, how many steps it takes for a 6/7 tile of water to spread into two 3/7 tiles, and if steps are the right unit of measurement here?

Thirdly, there is no thirdly. That’s it. Thanks for any input in advance. [[User:Frewfrux|Frewfrux]] 19:26, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
:The rate of water evaporation is random. This is easy to test by filling a large area with 1/7 water and watching it evaporate - it doesn't evaporate nicely in the order it filled. I'm not sure about the answer to the second question. --[[User:LaVacaMorada|LaVacaMorada]] 00:57, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
::There's another article about creating a system of pumps that basically pumps one level of water (or maybe two?) constantly creating a never ending waterfall. It's apparently "neverending" because the pumps will pump the water faster then it can evaporate. This means, from my perspective, that the rate of water evaporation must have, at least, a minimum timeframe for it to exist before the code tests to see if it might evaporate (otherwise that neverending waterfall wouldn't work). And *that* means that it should be possible to fill at least small areas with water quickly enough that you don't need to worry about any evaporation rates. If that's true, then perhaps I can do this water clock thing after all. All I really need to figure out is the rate at which all this will happen. If there is anyone who's figured this out (I haven't seen the info I need anywhere in the wiki) then please let me know. Otherwise it will be a little while before I can do the needed tests. --[[User:Frewfrux|Frewfrux]] 01:27, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

::ROFLOL. I didn’t even see the calendar on the inventory screen until just this morning. Well, I guess I can still try for a water clock, but I will need to somehow make it useful. I think I could have it dump a tile worth of water over top of my magma vent at the start of spring each year. This will freeze the game due to a “cave in” (the produced obsidian floor falling to the bottom of the vent) and alert me that it’s time to get my winter-working dwarves inside before the start of the first season’s goblin ambushes. So I guess there is still a point to creating a water clock.

::In case anyone was wondering I tested out the length of days in steps, and comparing my tests to what is mentioned on the article under “calendar”, I am fairly certain that the length of a day is 1200 steps.

::Also, I think I’ve figured out how to not have to worry about evaporation; make use of water pressure. If I build all the logic gates for my clock on a low enough level, and have them be filled from a multi-level cistern fairly high up, then the water pressure should cause the water to spread fast enough that evaporation won’t be an issue. If it works the way I’m thinking it will, then there definitely is a way to build all these logic gates in a way that is dependable from a timing standpoint. --[[User:Frewfrux|Frewfrux]] 17:16, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

:::Hmmmm. I think all this talk might be better handled on my user page. I will attempt to sort through it and figure out what to leave here and move the rest over at a later point. --[[User:Frewfrux|Frewfrux]] 17:24, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

== This is either a very good or a very bad idea. ==

Is Dwarf Fortress Turing complete? If so, some very interesting ideas are in order.

:Starcraft is Turing complete - i'm guessing that makes DF so. (Admittedly, one can program Tetris in Starcraft, and that seems hard in DF... no wait, i think i could make something that was logically equivalent, but it would *suck* to play it). --[[User:Squirrelloid|Squirrelloid]] 22:24, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
:: I'd say it is turing complete, but it's hard to proof. (Btw, I like the tetris idea...) --[[User:Kami|Kami]] 09:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
:This Wikipedia article on the subject [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness Turing Completeness] says that a machine must have the capability of conditional branching (if/goto) and the ability to write to memory. I believe that in the realm of Dwarf Fortress Computing a lot of serious work needs to be done in designing efficient, cheap, and reliable components before we can approach a Turing Machine. The Computing articles are still in the proof-of-concept stage as I read them and do not have much to say about building more complex assemblages of components with specific purposes. Some ingenious players have designed complex machines, but not documented them. A calculator does not a computer make, it must have the ability to logically branch based on programming.--[[User:Carlthuringer|Carlthuringer]] 10:07, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Dwarf Fortress Wiki talk:Versions

2010-03-09T09:38:11Z

Carlthuringer: /* Updated proposal */

== What about <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:version|version]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki>? ==

Did you have something like this in mind? [[:category:version]] [[template:version]] (: [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

: I did see that before and I think that's awesome as notes about particular items in an article, but it doesn't quite bring us to the two goals I hoped for [[Dwarf Fortress Wiki:Versions|here]]. It informs users about a statement but because of the difficulty (and undesirability) of labeling every statement in an article I think a single template per article can bring something different to the table. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 21:38, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

::[[Template:old]] is the same functionality but with a box. Is this what you need, or did you have something else in mind? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

:::Much closer, I think a box for an article (maybe shifted to the top-right) is necessary for this, in order to provide the benefit of information for the user. A difference is I'd like this box to be on every article so that not only are articles labeled as out of date, but also as up to date. Most importantly I'm more about discussing the conceptual idea of this kind of organization, then we can devise an appropriate implementation. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 21:51, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

::From what I've seen so far, it looks like what you want is a trivial step away from the things already in place. Is putting the box in the top right corner and putting one on every article the only difference? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 21:58, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
:::Oh I'm not saying it's a fundemental change, but it's implementation will allow for the large project of updating after this big update of DF. There are some details I think should be part of this change:

:::*A box on every article stating if the article is up to date or not. If it's not, also stating up to what version it is up to date.
:::*A categorization scheme that follows like so:
:::**If it's up to date, put in two categories: something like "up to date", and something like "version ______"
:::**If it's not up to date, put it in two categories: something like "obsolete", and something like "version _____"

:::Each page should be able to just list the version it's updated as of, the template should determine whether "<nowiki>{{Version|40d}}</nowiki>" should end up in category "up to date" or category "obsolete". This should be done in such a way that when a new version comes out we can make a small change to the template and EVERY article will become "obsolete" and users can over time go through them and confirm that they are still up-to-date by changing the template to refer to the new version. ''I think this is the major aspect I'm proposing that isn't a trivial difference from the current method of organization and upkeep here''. Do you get what I'm suggesting? If I thought it was a trival difference I would have just implemented it and asked what people thought, but this could be a very big deal if we go through with it. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:11, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

::Take a look at [[template:vcat]]. This is the template currently placed on all of the version category pages. It compares the version the category corresponds to with [[template:current/version]] and displays a message based on whether or not it matches. Is this the type of thing you want? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 22:16, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
:::This is certainly a useful feature already in place that would likely go on the categories that will be created, or it might just stay as is but the version template will change slightly. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

:Perhaps use "New", "Old", and "Obsolete" markers? DF2010 is "New", 40d is "Old", and pre-40d is "Obsolete"? I like the idea of a small box up in the corner, and a category to group them. --[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 23:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

::I would want to make sure we don't get out of hand; new uses will be likely to ignore anything marked "Old" even if it continues to be accurate (nobody had verified it). Perhaps something like "This page is X releases old; some information may be changed" or something. Most releases don't change more than a few major areas (DF2010 is an exception because of the length of release, but even it won't be changing everything). I do think that something like this is VERY important for "tutorial" sections; a single key change could stymie a new user; and we'd lose them forever. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 00:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Well of course and that's a detail on the text in the template. There are multiple goals to accomplish and realistically I don't think it would take long on a minor to average version to go through and just check each article to make sure it's up to date. There are a lot but it's not too much, and there a lot of active editors on here who if given a straightforward task of article version checking would be able to accomplish it in the early days of a new version release I'm sure. I also think the New/Old(Current)/Obsolete(Old) is a great addition. That way we can do the transition of New to Current for DF2010 after we've done a lot of the work. [[User:Mason11987|Mason11987]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 00:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
:The problem with "updating" all the old version's pages is that is based on the premise that a page, as a whole, can both be "updated" and then accurately labeled as such. It can't, not either. Pieces will be updated, subsections, or single elements of subsections, but even then only as accurate as that last editor understood the changes. Think about the changes that the Wound/Healing system will undergo, or Materials/Values, or Weapons/Armor, and all the directly associated pages and concepts, and references and paraphrasing in other articles - could be massive and subtle at the same time. When does a label get changed? If each User only edits a bit at a time (and few of us rewrite entire pages!), how do we know we've filtered out'' all'' the legacy information? I ''do'' like the idea of beginning new version labels for each version's article on the same subject - altho' that would almost ''require'' different sites to allow for identical article names. --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 12:02, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
::I don't disagree with your opinion on bit-by-bit changes, it makes sense. I think your below idea might be the way to go, with articles of the new version labeled with a suffix (DF2010) linking back to the "old" version, which links forward to the 2010 version. A new site is definitely not needed and would cause a huge amount of problems imo. I think a simple template on every article (like I described) pointing to a 2010 version can be done by a handful of people with a little time. Then the 2010 version can start with just that template (which will automatically point backwards). This will include the separate page like you suggested, but would still accomplish the goals I had hoped to accomplish. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 12:13, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
:::<nods> Those "goals" being:
:::* Allow users to know an article is up to date
:::* If an article isn't up to date, allow a user to know exactly how out of date it currently is.
:::* Allow editors to easily find articles which are out of date and improve them.
:::It seems no article can ever be confirmed as 100% up to date - new observations and insights make this a very dynamic and wiki-appropriate process. But if we can ''start'' every 2010 article (and every version in the future!) with currently accurate info, even if that's only a fraction of what we "knew" for d40, that's as big a step as we can take in the right direction.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 12:25, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

== My vision ==

(For what it's worth). I mentioned a desire to look into the possibility of doing this on my Admin application, in the Q&A process. When I first joined the DF community, we had just(?) undergone a version shift, and the pages here and users on the [[Forums]] here were rife with misinformation and contradictory understandings of the game. Newbies would look in the wiki and find ancient history mixed side-by-side with recent edits, some stuff that went back to the 2-D version, and that would be presented as gospel and no one knew any different. The ''very'' recent revelation that workshops do NOT make [[noise]] in d40 is a perfect example. I'd ''love'' to see this version change-over done differently.

What I had envisioned was a category template, something bold and unmistakable like [[mod]] or [[delete]], that marked a page (or every major subsection?) as "OLD VERSION : d40" (or whatever). (This would also create a category page where all those could be scanned at a glance.) Those pages would '''not''' be edited for DF2010 - to do that would invite a piecemeal disaster that would spiral into the same jumbled quagmire ''(or probably worse!)'' that I first stepped into. As a User wants to address a topic, a new page is started - if that is ''identical'' to the prev info ([[dwarf]], perhaps, etc), then it's mostly just copy/paste - but if not, then it gets edited and updated on the new page. If only part of it can be verified, then only part of that older page makes the transition at that time. Thus (in theory*) only material that has been confirmed as "DF2010 accurate" will make it to the "current" wiki, and the rest is clearly marked as legacy but stays intact as that.

''(* I have no illusions that users will not find a way to screw this up at times. But it has to be better than opening a long legacy article that has already had a dozen editors shake it up - but it's unclear what has and what has not been addressed. [[Armor]], or [[skill]], for instance.)''

The new pages would have a link to the old one(s), so users could see what if any old info is still applicable or unconfirmed, and/or what needs to be translated/updated and added, but the new page will grow the new article from the ground up, rather than pretend a dozen users could patch an accurate final product together from an inaccurate but similar one, one edit at a time.

It's the difference between repairing a totaled car, and using only the good pieces to rebuild a new one.

I'm not experienced enough in the wiki-code to know if or how the two "versions" would be kept distinct if we stayed on this site - many articles will certainly want the same Name, so... yeah. That's what I thought the new site/engine would be used for, not simply copy/pasting current articles and being right where we are now, right where we were with the last significant change, right where we don't want to be.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 10:05, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

:IMO. Personally you would do this by copying every <nowiki>[[article]]</nowiki> (say, [[Miner]]) to a new namespace. With redirects from main namespace to the version namespace.
:So <nowiki>[[Miner]]</nowiki> would redirect to <nowiki>[[VerABC:Miner]]</nowiki>. With a simple Page Copy, editors could copy the whole page, and easily update it to DF2010.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]]
::Um, what's the right word?... NO!!! That is ''exactly'' what I would NOT want to see happen! And sorry to shout, but that is so far off the mark it frightens me. That achieves nothing but two legacy sites. What I would prefer is that the new page is blank, and ''only'' information that has gone thru a user's confirmation process is added to that new article. Blind, bulk "copy/pasting" is not that. It's ''much'' easier to read over one section at a time and update that, than to try to weed out legacy information buried in an entire article that has been "mostly edited". For one, how does anyone know what has and has not been checked at least once? Yes, there will be constant updates - but the core information is then at least (in theory) info on 2010, not d40, and any clear d40 legacy material has already been filtered out. ("Healing and wounds" jumps immediately to mind as a collection of articles that would lead to a disastrous "rewrite" - but snipping bits and pieces, and adding that to the updated system - that gives us better accuracy for the end product.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 10:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Something like this, [[Template:D40x]]:
{{D40x}}

:I like where you're going and I think this could fit nicely with the goals I had in mind when I wrote this. For each article we could have a box in it. Saying that this article was updated as of version 40d, for the new version click "here". Here will link to "''article name'' (DF2010)" or something similar. That article will have a box saying it was updated as of DF2010, and for the old version click "here", where here will link to "''article name''". This can easily be done via templates.
:I understand your concern about updating articles bit-by-bit, and I see a lot of value in your suggestion. I think at SOME point though after the release of DF2010 we'll need to mass move articles so that the 2010 versions become the ''article name'' verions, and the ''article name'' versions become ''article name'' (40d), and the template placed can have a minor modification to continue functioning after a mass move.
:Ultimately I think this will require more administrative work (move-over-redirect for example), and perhaps a larger set of work for editors, but it will more likely have a better end-product then a bit-by-bit change, which is really most important. Organization on something like this is key though, but I like your approach. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 11:59, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
::And I value your experience with what's possible - that could totally work, linking each article to a main (or "best") article in the other version ("best" being relative, depending). And, yes, the "migration" between naming conventions could be a pain and will have to happen as we phase out d40 (another reason I was thinking 2 sites, but if we don't have to go there then that's better still). I completely re-edited some of the larger clusters left by the previous version changes - the whole Armor/Weapon series, and the various Defense Design/Fortress Design/Fortress Defense/Design a Fortress/Defend your Fortress/Siege Engine/Siege/Design a Defense/Design Theory/Design Theory pages - you get the idea. That was ugly and took weeks of planning and then editing, and the info was already mostly there and it was largely "one vision", so I could keep track of my own progress - we can't expect that with this shift. Many of ''groups'' of d40 article will need to be re-conceived 100% ''as well as'' have all new info, rearranged to better fit the 2010 game system and paradigm. "Squads" and "Burrows" will wreck havoc with the current Military and Design concepts, and Wounds/Doctors will most likely call for a new series of articles. It's not going to be a 1:1 translation, and we shouldn't plan on it being so.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 12:18, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
:::I get what you're saying about the changes being big enough that "blind copying" d40 info won't work to make accurate DF2010 articles. But I honestly think the use of a seperate name-space for (legacy) version specific information is a tidier way of "quarantining" it than '''Article (Version)'''. The "quarantining" process was more what I was getting at, than the process of getting "accurate DF2010" articles into main-space. <font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 12:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
::::I kind of like the namespaced articles idea. However, don't let what I think will / wont work override every other opinion. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 12:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

::: I think the namespace is a good option. My only worry is problems it could cause to things such as search, which the parenthetical notation wouldn't have those problems. On the other hand it isn't as easy to separate a page name and the version it applies to if the version is in parentheses, those I suspect the difference may be minimal especially with parser functions. One thing we don't want is to make navigation more difficult to users. If they type "weapons" they should arrive at the appropriate article automatically. Which either means that information has to be on the article [[Weapons]] (without namespace or parentheses) or the article [[Weapons]] has to redirect to the correct version. I think having [[DF2010:Weapons]] and [[40d:Weapons]] could certainly work, but then when there is a version change all of the articles like [[Weapons]] have to point to the new version. This isn't a big deal to me though, and is a necessary problem to overcome if we're going to have an article for each topic for each version. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
::: I'll update the article page with what I think is the current consensus approach. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::A new namespace would be really good. If we have some large article X that effectively needs to be scrapped, we could move it to Legacy:X and put an appropriate label on it. Then lock it and put a link to it on the new X article. This has the added benefit of disabling all of the [[template:version]] (and maybe [[template:verify]]) tags, which only include pages in a category if they are in the main namespace. So they don't need to be found and removed manually. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 12:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

== Updated proposal ==

I made some changes, hopefully they are clear. Thoughts? [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

: I wonder if what we're doing here would be more suited for a release like DF2010 - a jump from 39d to 40d, say, wouldn't be that much and shouldn't make the whole wiki covered with orange boxes. Perhaps a smaller unverified note unless a manual "this change was major" button is hit somewhere. I like what is there currently, as articles would "rust" just like dwarven skills if not updated. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 04:26, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

:: This was inspired by the DF2010 jump but the goal is to make sure the wiki stays up to date through all future releases. Though I agree that larger changes require a different approach then small changes. I'd suggest we worry about small changes when they come afterwords. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 12:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

:My suggestion would be to use the "main" namespace (ie: no special prefix) for whatever version is current.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 06:43, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

:: Well that seems obvious, and way simpler lol. The template could still work just as well that way, since the template will know what version is up to date, if it finds an article that is using it, it will know it's up to date if it's the main namespace article. This will mean that at some point in the near future we'll have to move all of the articles that are relevant to "40d:Article" then edit the redirect to begin the new page which will be about the article for DF2010. Thoughts on this? [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 12:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
:::It ''seems'' simpler, but is it really, in the long run? (I'm not sure, but I'm just not convinced either way.) The difference is whether we have to update ''every'' "current" page every significant version upgrade. Won't be "every" time, but any time like this one. That, plus however much hassle and confusion having two (and more later!) parallel sets of articles creates. While that won't be often, it will be a LOT of pages to reconcile, recreating (and compounding?) the current situation with every major upgrade. I wish we could somehow create two independent "sites" (with or without a different domain name/etc), but linkable to each other, so that the new one is separate yet still easily self-referential within itself. A new page or internal-link either series is just a new page, [[metal]] or [[stone]], no need for a new template or qualifier to the obvious and appropriate article name. And any older series of articles don't muddy the water for navigation or a Search, they just become "the old site", similarly separate but nearby. If there was a way to mass-mark every page on a site, adding a template that refers users to the new "current version", so much the better. I don't know if anything like this is possible, or practical if it is, but it would be a good thing if it were, and solve both problems.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 06:39, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
:::: I really really don't think that scrapping the wiki and calling it old is useful. We destroy any and all redirecting capability, which is critical for new users. Our goal is to retain information about the old versions while creating information on the new versions as accurately and quickly as possible, and with as little trouble for readers as possible. Creating another wiki is not helpful for this for many reasons (watchlists/usernames not copying over as a couple examples). I don't think old articles in other namespaces will mess up search, as you can explicitly exclude different name spaces in your search. I think this is a fantastic feature, instead of a problem. Imagine being able to search for some topic only in 40d articles? Or only in "up to date" articles? Or both? [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 14:37, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
::::Apologies. This is my first time using MediaWiki and certainly I could pick a better place to make my first edit. I feel that I should voice support for the notion of a user wishing to filter his search by -any- version easily and quickly. A drop-down added to the search box that filters the search by 40d-compatible articles, older, DF2010, or everything would be super, as would portal pages for each version linking to the sort of info we currently have for Getting Started, Video Tutorials, Nobles, Fun, and so on. It seems that there is a lot of interest in continuing to play the 40d version for various reasons, and so it should definitely be possible now, after DF2010, and after future releases to select your preferred version when searching and to navigate through a portal for that version. As articles are vetted, edited for accuracy, and properly labeled with which versions they are for, I hope it will be possible to not only continue using this one wiki going forward, but to also go backward and play even older versions of the game, or just to click through the versions to compare the evolution of this feature or that, enabling users to better understand and select a version of the game that best suits what they want to get out of it. The availability of many (all?) past versions of DF indicates to me that Toady et.al. consider them important not just as a legacy, but as slightly different game experiences that Dwarf Fortress fans may still wish to us.--[[User:Carlthuringer|Carlthuringer]] 09:38, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

== DF2010 ==

I just wanted to make sure nobody plans to keep calling the new version DF2010 after it gets released. It will have a real version number at that point. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 00:17, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
:Lotsa luck on that one. My guess is it'll be a redirect, as so many "fan contributions" to this culture. Meanwhile, since we have no hard count on the version changes (which equate to the ver number), this will continue to ingrain itself in our consciousness.)--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 03:28, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
:<small> *using small text to fake hide my pride* - I coined the name "DF 2010" when I made the wiki article :D [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup></small>
:The 2D version is very commonly referred to as such, so I wouldn't be surprised if it continues to be well known as DF2010. That being said I agree that if we go with the namespaces, we aren't going to use DF2010 unless that phrasing actually existing IN the game. Regardless though our job is to help people find what they're looking for and that should be the #1 concern. If people will search for something using DF2010 or similar we should make that easy as possible. But the name of articles is unimportant as long as the possible names redirect to the actual article, that's my only concern. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 14:31, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

== Consensus? ==

I went through and read everyone's comments on this talk, and tried to summarize everyone's viewpoints. It looks like we have a general consensus for this idea:

*Move version-dependent (almost all) articles to "40d:X"
*Page "X" [this means the "main" namespace] contain DF2010 information only (no Copy/Paste), links to "40d:X"
*'''Current Version''' namespace is intended to be a staging namespace for us editors.
*Make references to "DF2010" able to be changed easily.

I figure we can just do a straw poll to decide if this is a good idea (as a whole). In your comment if you could specify when you think this kind of thing should be done (after we set up templates/categories), that'd be useful [either "ASAP", "some date", or "after DF2010" release].

*'''Support''' - ASAP [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 23:46, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - ASAP, and I've set up the required namespaces for this project. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 00:33, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support''', except the for the name of the namespace. I think "legacy" has a much better ring to it than "40d". Also, this won't be the last time we want to move outdated info somewhere. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 01:35, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
*:I think it would be great to keep all our outdated information for those who want to play legacy versions of the game. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 01:37, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Strongly support that last sentiment, at least for the now...
:...Also, I'll suggest that less than 36 hrs over a weekend (if at any time) is perhaps NOT adequate time to poll for a "consensus", at least not for something of this magnitude. I had something to say about this, something that might have made a diff, but... it's completely moot now, ''i'n'it?'' Next time, maybe either wait just ''a bit'' longer before taking executive action, or simply don't pretend input matters, pls - it's disheartening, among other things.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 07:27, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
::I had your concerns noted, in particular you noted that you wanted to start fresh for each version, which we are going to do. But I agree that action shouldn't have been taken yet on this.
::This is my fault, I misunderstood what the goal was for this so I hopped into action. Input is extremely important, and because of that, I'm now working on reverting the article moves. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 15:21, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

:Seconded what Albedo said.<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 09:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support''' altho' it's a bit late. Vengeful, while I agree about '''legacy:''' vs '''40d:''' - what do we use next version? Mass move all '''legacy:''' to '''40d:''' so we can move '''main:''' to '''legacy:'''?<font face="FixedSys" color="#00FFFF">[[User:GarrieIrons|Gar]]</font>[[User Talk:GarrieIrons|rie]] 09:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

::We don't need a new namespace for every single version. Whenever you have an article that needs to be scrapped, move it to legacy, put the appropriate label on it, and rewrite it. Also, the mass move was a bad idea and not something we should repeat again. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 13:08, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

:::But if we have the namespace refer to a particular version then we can easily retain categorization of information based off of version. In that a template can simply use the namespace to categorize articles. If we do what you're suggesting then an article will need to be labeled by it's version. Not a huge problem I suppose, but it is worth noting. [[User:Mason11987|Mason]] <sup>([[User talk:Mason11987|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mason11987|C]])</sup> 22:58, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

::::When we move the pages, you're planning to add a template saying the page is an old page pertaining to version blah-blah. This template will include it in category blah-blah. I do not see the problem. [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 23:04, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

VD's comments about some pages that are ''not'' version specific should be heeded - take a look at articles like [[defense design]] or [[dwarf]] or some of the [[industry]] presentations - those are not going to change significantly, if at all. Otoh, if we want to keep a ''complete'' "40d/legacy" data base, then those need to be duplicated, not changed over. But then, practically speaking, we've doubled our page count. Once more, I'll suggest two different sites, sub-domains, whatever - the legacy being more or less "fossilized", and the current, default one designed to be dynamic and user friendly.<br /> Currently, to link to a topic is to create (double?)redirect - "[[siege]]" isn't sufficient, and, for an Admin policy that was worried about making things "easier" for Users to do editing, having to know and remember (and bother) to type "[[40d:siege]]" is counter productive in the long run. imnsho.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 11:27, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

:Briess, now that you've fixed things, has it become possible to undo the move? [[User:VengefulDonut|VengefulDonut]] 13:08, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
::I have to finish fixing the talk pages and then I will be able to undo the move. --[[User:Briess|Briess]] 15:08, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

*'''Support''' - this should work. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 02:33, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
:: I've been noticing that this is breaking double redirects; it makes them less useful. See [[Spiked Ball]] for an example. In a perfect world, it wouldn't stop at the second redirect, but continue on. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 03:07, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
::: I suspect that it severely harms double redirects that link directly to a subtopic, but I've yet to find one to verify. Something like [[Spiked_Ball#Menacing_spike|Contrived Example]] versus [[Trap_component#Menacing_spike|Single Redirect]]. --[[User:Bombcar|Bombcar]] 03:12, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

*'''Support''' though it's late. Although I'm not catching what "legacy" is supposed to mean. I like the simple, factual idea of calling it 40d, still.--[[User:Aescula|Aescula]] 04:48, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
:Similar to any older (and often non-compatible) version of a product, "legacy" refers to any articles on a ''previous'' version of DF that are not compatible with DF2010. We have none(?) atm, but will soon - what to do with those? If anyone wants to play d40 in the future, any articles on DF2010 might not be accurate (any more), and there may be some articles and terms found in d40 that simply no longer apply. Those are (or will be) all "legacy" articles (if or as long as we choose to keep them around). Also, don't forget that while in the immediate future only d40 articles will be "legacy", eventually DF2010 will follow in the same steps, at the ''next'' version change after this - and we want to try to show some foresight and leave a User- and Admin-friendly policy for then as well.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 08:49, 9 March 2010 (UTC)